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[Rumor]Apple Switching to Zen2 in 2019??

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#1
Take this with a train load of salt though. Chiphell user "wjm47196" once again predicts a certain computer manufactuer is about to switch to AMD's Zen2 thanks to its performance. This is the same guy that predicted Polaris30 (RX590) a while ago.

Honestly this will be pretty exciting if true. The chiplet design based 3rd gen Threadripper is what I am looking forward to the most. Well and whatever GPU comes after Navi as well of course.

https://translate.google.com/transl...om/thread-1932002-1-1.html&edit-text=&act=url
 
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#2
Their is a bit to believe in this. i mean Apple computers arnt designed for gaming which intel cpus have an edge on. But more for a professional and content creators that will benefit from higher cores and threads without the " intel tax "
 
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#3
if anything they will switch to their own internal design seeing as their ipad pro is within striking distance of their high-end macbook pro. Although a 64 Core Zen 2 would be an amazing thing in an apple case.
 
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#4
if anything they will switch to their own internal design seeing as their ipad pro is within striking distance of their high-end macbook pro. Although a 64 Core Zen 2 would be an amazing thing in an apple case.

In certain, specific applications and workloads in walled garden hardware, with software written to optimize performance on the specific hardware.

If Zen2 has the 29% IPC increase and the same thermals as current generation with integrated graphics they win, the software written for use with GPU acceleration would boost the performance for many target users with less complexity allowing for a larger battery in mobile, or more cooling and or performance.
 
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#6
There's no reason to switch to AMD unless they're looking to save a buck (quite plausible) &/or they want more cores.
Except the GPU, the single chip means simpler board wiring, the lack of many security exploits found on Intel chips, the same or better CPU performance at the same power consumption, custom silicon options much like the Xbox and PS4.
 
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#7
In certain, specific applications and workloads in walled garden hardware, with software written to optimize performance on the specific hardware.
What do you think OSX is? Everything with an apple logo on it is a walled garden - that's exactly why they could dump x86 architecture without much of a problem.

It's not hard to imagine a variant of the A12 or A13 chips at 140W power envelope smashing everything with optimized software - the GPU performance on those chips using Metal is ridiculous.

Keep in mind Jim Keller, the Ryzen, K8 guy designed Apple's ARM core...

1543265692000.png
]

that's not a slow GPU for the power envelope - the A12X is basically a 945M

1543265916090.png
 
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#8
What do you think OSX is? Everything with an apple logo on it is a walled garden - that's exactly why they could dump x86 architecture without much of a problem.

It's not hard to imagine a variant of the A12 or A13 chips at 140W power envelope smashing everything with optimized software - the GPU performance on those chips using Metal is ridiculous.

Keep in mind Jim Keller, the Ryzen, K8 guy designed Apple's ARM core...

View attachment 111313 ]

that's not a slow GPU for the power envelope - the A12X is basically a 945M

View attachment 111318

https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-R9-M370X.142763.0.html

So a 2015 28nm R9 M370X is 3% slower than a 2018 7nm chip designed for application with on board memory instead of shared system memory? Color me surprised, but I would guess with the AMD chips in the Xbox and PS4, the holder of the X64 patent, the only other manufacturer of X86 chips besides intel, and a GPU able to run some things like games they might have an idea how to do it, but maybe Apple knows better.
 

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#9
I'd be more surprised if Apple didn't want to switch. Not only is Intel stuck in 2015 in terms of process, Intel doesn't give them an option of custom ordering chips either. Apple can order and get exactly what they want so long as Apple is willing to place an order large enough to make it worth AMD's while. Apple has preferred AMD GPUs for a long time now too.


iOS is not OS X. Either Apple keeps making x86-64 based machines or they would have to expand iOS to handle desktop/workstation/laptop tasks. Microsoft tried to do that with Windows 8 and it was an abysmal failure. Who knows? Apple may still be working on it in R&D but it isn't ready yet. Apple needs to refresh their Mac products to stay relevant. AMD is a good choice in the interim.
 
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#10
if anything they will switch to their own internal design
Highly unlikely, at least not in anything that's a desktop.

It's not hard to imagine a variant of the A12 or A13 chips at 140W power envelope
Actually there is, these things have horrible scaling.
 
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#11
https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-R9-M370X.142763.0.html

So a 2015 28nm R9 M370X is 3% slower than a 2018 7nm chip designed for application with on board memory instead of shared system memory? Color me surprised, but I would guess with the AMD chips in the Xbox and PS4, the holder of the X64 patent, the only other manufacturer of X86 chips besides intel, and a GPU able to run some things like games they might have an idea how to do it, but maybe Apple knows better.
That's the point - x86 is slow. And the guy who developed the k8 core which implemented AMD X64 at AMD was the same guy who designed Apple's core... So it's not like "they don't know it since AMD knows it better".

- The Xbox One S is being compare to the A12X... and one of those chips is stuck in a passively cooled device with a tiny battery, the other one is in an actively cooled enclosure.

https://bgr.com/2018/11/01/ipad-pro-vs-xbox-one-s-specs-games-apple/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...an-move-from-intel-to-own-mac-chips-from-2020


"The initiative, code named Kalamata, is still in the early developmental stages, but comes as part of a larger strategy to make all of Apple’s devices -- including Macs, iPhones, and iPads -- work more similarly and seamlessly together, said the people, who asked not to be identified discussing private information. The project, which executives have approved, will likely result in a multi-step transition. "
 
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#12
and one of those chips is stuck in a passively cooled device with a tiny battery, the other one is in an actively cooled enclosure.
And one of them is over 6 years old ...
 
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#13
And one of them is over 6 years old ...
IMO you're grossly underestimating the potential performance of a higher-power design.

Considering the leaps and bounds Intel has made in the processor space since sandy bridge (Lol) and AMD has made in the GPU space (also Lol); combined with the rumors leaking out of apple - I wouldn't be surprised if you saw one or two generations of thread-rippers with an a1XX coprocessor with an apple GPU, followed by laptops using only apple chips, then desktops.
 
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#14
IMO you're grossly underestimating the potential performance of a higher-power design.
More like you are overestimating it. Like I said, these things are nowhere near as scalable as you seem to think they are, it's not as simple as increasing the TDP. It never is.

And that A12 GPU, while it's probably comparable in stuff like fill rate to the Xbox One GPU, first gen GCN likely still crushes it in computationally intensive things like tessellation and compute. Actually I am not even going to give them that, who the hell even knows really, we are all taking their word for it and Apple is incredibly secretive with specifics. They don't even let in their closest third party developers onto details with regards to their internal architecture and it's limitations unlike AMD and Nvidia.

1.31 TFLOPS and single digit TDP values ? You do know that means efficiency levels that are several times what Nvidia has, right ? Do you genuinely believe that ? How can one believe that doesn't come with a million caveats ? Apple has a well optimized mobile chip for mobile devices that runs software made for mobile platforms. Try and use it anywhere outside of that and it falls apart, it's just not meant to fulfill those roles.
 
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#15
1.31 TFLOPS and single digit TDP values ? How can one believe that doesn't come with a million caveats ? Apple has a well optimized mobile chip for mobile devices that runs software made for mobile platforms. Try and use it anywhere outside of that and it falls apart, it's just not meant to fulfill those roles.
Mobile platform = Linux... or wait for it... OSX which is also a flavor of linux (which also supports Metal 2.0). In the Apple world differences between mobile software and platforms and non-mobile normal OSX stuff is mostly the user interface (and their stupid touch bar, or whatever the hell that thing is). They've ported from PPC to x86 before, and they're starting to do it now in the other direction...

Is your HPC rack running a bunch of Teslas going to get replaced by a rack of ipads? no, it won't... but it's really not a huge stretch of the imagination for them to come out with a higher powered A13X processor that they cram into a Macbook air that beats the snot out of what intel currently has... then the Macbook Pro, then the Mac Pro.
 
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#16
Is your HPC rack running a bunch of Teslas going to get replaced by a rack of ipads? no, it won't
It has to, that's the implication of what you are saying. Apple replaces the current AMD GPUs which are also HPC parts, therefore they must be at the very least comparable, right ? Unless they plan to downgrade ? You still can't see why this doesn't make much sense and you shouldn't take their performance claims too serious ?
 
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#17
It has to, that's the implication of what you are saying. Apple replaces the current AMD GPUs which are also HPC parts, therefore they must be at the very least comparable, right ? Unless they plan to downgrade ? You still can't see why this doesn't make much sense and you shouldn't take their performance claims too serious ?
That's not the implication of what I'm saying... Apple is a consumer device company. They're not going to chase after Nvidia and AMD in the GPGPU space anytime soon.

But they are going to replace those CPUs and GPUs in their own devices with their own SOC. They have downgraded in the past by switching from nvidia forgoing maxwell and pascall and going with AMD so they can develop Metal, and now their ipad GPU is within 10% of the CURRENT, 2018 AMD gpu in their macbook pros (which is the 5xx pro series - total garbage).


1543274624382.png


They literally just have to put the iPad 12.1 into a macbook frame, as is, and it would be faster and have a better battery life than the current macbook. Phase 1 complete.
 
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#18
and now their ipad GPU is within 10% of the CURRENT, 2018 AMD gpu in their macbook pros
That's far, far away from Vega 64 levels of performance inside the Mac Pro, which is supposedly going to be replaced at some point as well according to you. That's also the part that I said is used for HPC.

You are making such far fetched assumptions, such as the fact that Apple can even make a GPU that has the performance of a high end desktop chip in the first place. And secondly that the whole industry is just going to wait for them to catch up, which they wont. By the time Apple has something even remotely close to replace something like a Vega 56 AMD and Nvidia will be light years ahead.

Funny, no one thinks AMD or even Nvidia can come up with a design that's literally several times faster overnight but Apple somehow has the ability to do that ... and do it with CPUs too ...

Honestly, to me, them replacing the current hardware with their own designs isn't that far fetched, I can believe that. After all, the Mac software landscape is still a joke, a downgrade wouldn't even be felt by most of their users. It's not like they need to fulfill the needs of millions of users that need dozens of cores and massively powerful GPUs even though they do their best to claim that whenever they uncover a "pro" product (remember that Star-wars VR demo on the Mac, how baffling was that ?).

But to say that they can also make comparable hardware, performance wise ? No, that's just not something I can believe.
 
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#19
Intel just announced the next mainstream cpu for 2019. On 14nm.....again. They couldn't supply Apple right now if they had to.
 
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#20

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#22
That's not the implication of what I'm saying... Apple is a consumer device company. They're not going to chase after Nvidia and AMD in the GPGPU space anytime soon.

But they are going to replace those CPUs and GPUs in their own devices with their own SOC. They have downgraded in the past by switching from nvidia forgoing maxwell and pascall and going with AMD so they can develop Metal, and now their ipad GPU is within 10% of the CURRENT, 2018 AMD gpu in their macbook pros (which is the 5xx pro series - total garbage).


View attachment 111323

They literally just have to put the iPad 12.1 into a macbook frame, as is, and it would be faster and have a better battery life than the current macbook. Phase 1 complete.
Hah ha haaa , one non descript benchmark.

Their are now high performance arm cores apple could tweak to compete, but that efficiency dips away and it still isn't quite quick enough to beat a low end intel from a few years ago, as someone said ,time rolls on and intel will soon have big little efficient chips.

@FordGT90Concept has a point Amd are experienced at making x86 cores with arm in, maybe apple would use Amd to design a chip just for them.
 
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#23
What do you think OSX is? Everything with an apple logo on it is a walled garden - that's exactly why they could dump x86 architecture without much of a problem.

It's not hard to imagine a variant of the A12 or A13 chips at 140W power envelope smashing everything with optimized software - the GPU performance on those chips using Metal is ridiculous.

Keep in mind Jim Keller, the Ryzen, K8 guy designed Apple's ARM core...

View attachment 111313 ]

that's not a slow GPU for the power envelope - the A12X is basically a 945M

View attachment 111318
Comparing a 720p 'medium' bench with todays' ingame performance is not realistic. Things don't scale linearly like that. Its not like you can put three or four of these Bionics together and have a 1070. The whole point of Apple's focus is that they manage superior optimization for a specific use case. As good as an A12X gpu is in one of their devices, it doesn't work anywhere else like that.

x86 isn't 'slow'. Its different. ARM doesn't have the burden of legacy, but it also doesn't have the legacy capability and software to go with that, which, actually, does a whole lot more than ARM software is doing at this point. They both have their place and I think the greater CPU is a result of combining the two. It provides versatility neither can offer on its own. Its an illusion to think one is 'better' than the other,. they're both being actively developed and its no surprise there is more low hanging fruit left on ARM. Don't be surprised if at the end of the road, ARM will look a lot like x86 after all. Already many design wins and best practices are simply copied over, and with the x86 side now adding ARM, that will happen vice versa.
 
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#24
Comparing a 720p 'medium' bench with todays' ingame performance is not realistic. Things don't scale linearly like that. Its not like you can put three or four of these Bionics together and have a 1070. The whole point of Apple's focus is that they manage superior optimization for a specific use case. As good as an A12X gpu is in one of their devices, it doesn't work anywhere else like that.

x86 isn't 'slow'. Its different. ARM doesn't have the burden of legacy, but it also doesn't have the legacy capability and software to go with that, which, actually, does a whole lot more than ARM software is doing at this point. They both have their place and I think the greater CPU is a result of combining the two. It provides versatility neither can offer on its own. Its an illusion to think one is 'better' than the other,. they're both being actively developed and its no surprise there is more low hanging fruit left on ARM. Don't be surprised if at the end of the road, ARM will look a lot like x86 after all. Already many design wins and best practices are simply copied over, and with the x86 side now adding ARM, that will happen vice versa.
It seems like all hardware is going to a hybrid state even if they're just physically on the same interposer/chip. It all makes sense, everything becomes simplified and streamlined equating to savings.
 
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#25
Say what you will about the Fruity team, but:

1) They have sucessfully managed chip transitions before.
2) They have a HUGE in-house, self-contained, extremely productive & talented R&D department.
3) They have a gazillion $$ in the bank to fund whatever projects they wanna pursue. If one fails, they just write it off and move on to the next one, without even so much as a hiccup....
3) Given their penchant for secrecy, you have to read between the lines when they make public statements.

Case in point: Back when the whole Motorola and OS X situations were happening, Steve Jobs made a passing, non-chalant statement that "Once OS X is ready, then we will have options".

Most people didn't pay much attention to that statement at the time, but I just sat there staring at my monitor in shock, and I knew then that they already had OS X running on intel chips and were prepping for the switch well before Moto's last clusterf*ck with the "we're so sorry, but our 500mhz cpu's can only reach 450mhz" ordeal. And lo & behold, not long after that they announced the switch to Intel....

My point being is that even when some of their public statements say one thing, nobody, and I mean NO*friggin*BODY, outside of their top managment, really knows what they are or are not gonna do next, until it's too late and they pull another Jobs moment on the entire indusrty.... ie "Oh yea, just one more thing".....

I have a feeling this situation will be no different :D
 
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