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So the new RTX cards have been released with reviews...

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Don't worry about it, its obvious he is in denial about AMD market/mindshare...
Not at all. See the comment made just above yours. I am realistic and look at the numbers as they really are, not as I desire them to be. I would absolutely love to see AMD kick NVidia in the back-side like they've done to Intel. AMD has and is continuing to make the CPU market exciting and interesting again and it would be great if they did so in the GPU market. Granted, credit where it's due, RTX is a very exciting and compelling advancement. I Just think it would be a ton of fun for AMD to mix it up even more with a solid or better option to RTX.
 
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Not at all. See the comment made just above yours. I am realistic and look at the numbers as they really are, not as I desire them to be. I would absolutely love to see AMD kick NVidia in the back-side like they've done to Intel. AMD has and is continuing to make the CPU market exciting and interesting again and it would be great if they did so in the GPU market. Granted, credit where it's due, RTX is a very exciting and compelling advancement. I Just think it would be a ton of fun for AMD to mix it up even more with a solid or better option to RTX.

I don't disagree. It would be fun, that is the wishful thinking I was referring to ;) If the raw performance isn't there to begin with, you can RTRT your butt off, but people won't be buying it. Look at the reception of RTX in that respect for proof. The numbers 'as they really are' is that the largest majority of sales for Polaris have gone to miners and that the 30% share is therefore heavily inflated and definitely not 'just gaming'.
 
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If the raw performance isn't there to begin with, you can RTRT your butt off, but people won't be buying it.
RTRT is the future, there is no stopping that fact. Adoption might take time as people learn how it's done and how to do it correctly. And as it's API agnostic, you will see RTRT in DX12, Vulkan and OGL.
Look at the reception of RTX in that respect for proof.
RTRT is brand new to PC gaming. Being it's first outing performance isn't perfect and thus the nay-sayers are out in full force. However, when you look at the big picture without blinders on, you will easy see why NVidia has chosen this route. It's time, the computing power is there and the effect is remarkable. Hollywood quality FX in a gaming PC. Yes, the prices are obnoxious, but they will, as they always do, come down. NVidia spent a ton of money on R&D and they need to recoup those expenditures. First adopters, myself included(changed my mind and decided to try it out), will spend the most in the beginning, but will also be the first to experience this new tech. And for the record, RTX is sold out everywhere as soon as listings get posted. That is the very definition of well received. Reviewers might have given it a luke-warm reception, but the gaming public sees the writing on the wall. Even without RTRT, the RTX cards are a big jump forward for UHD(2160p) performance, which means they're and even larger jump forward for HD(1080p) performance. And the benchmarks bare that out.
 
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RTRT is the future, there is no stopping that fact. Adoption might take time as people learn how it's done and how to do it correctly. And as it's API agnostic, you will see RTRT in DX12, Vulkan and OGL.

RTRT is brand new to PC gaming. Being it's first outing performance isn't perfect and thus the nay-sayers are out in full force. However, when you look at the big picture without blinders on, you will easy see why NVidia has chosen this route. It's time, the computing power is there and the effect is remarkable. Hollywood quality FX in a gaming PC. Yes, the prices are obnoxious, but they will, as they always do, come down. NVidia spent a ton of money on R&D and they need to recoup those expenditures. First adopters, myself included(changed my mind and decided to try it out), will spend the most in the beginning, but will also be the first to experience this new tech. And for the record, RTX is sold out everywhere as soon as listing get posted. Reviewers might have given it a luke-warm reception, but the gaming public see the writing on the wall. Even without RTRT, the RTX cards are a big jump forward for UHD performance.

Well, you know my take on it, and about those adoption rates, it is not entirely API agnostic at all, because games aren't either, and if you look at DX12 adoption, well, nuff said? Or, look at another performance hungry but 'long awaited' gaming development called VR. How's that working out?

Also, the nay sayers are out in full force, because the vast majority of tech sites and reviewers have turned into nay sayers. I do wonder, why...

I will leave you with this: as long as the consoles and thus AMD do not offer an RTRT hardware solution and can run it at decent performance, this will not gain traction. 100% of the RTRT you see today is funded by Nvidia. From top to bottom.
 
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it is not entirely API agnostic at all
Sure it is, RTRT can be done on any platform running any API when you add the code. What kind of performance you get will depend, like it always does, on the power of the platform and how efficient/optimized the API is written for said platform.
because games aren't either, and if you look at DX12 adoption, well, nuff said?
Please see above.
Or, look at another performance hungry but 'long awaited' gaming development called VR.
VR is not an API, it is a display platform. Any API can be coded to display to any VR headset.
as long as the consoles and thus AMD do not offer an RTRT hardware solution and can run it at decent performance, this will not gain traction.
That is very short sighted. Raytracing is the best lighting technique for scene rendering currently available and has been for a few decades. It can now be done real-time. Everyone will be clamoring to catch up, or they will likely be left behind. You can bet your life that AMD, Intel, ARM and anyone else doing graphics work is either actively working on or exploring RTRT. The writing is on the wall.
 
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100% of the RTRT you see today is funded by Nvidia. From top to bottom.

I wouldn't say so, it's Microsoft that developed DXR, a platform for all vendors. That makes things pretty clear, everyone is on board with this. Turing being developed for 10 years with RTRT in mind is a load of shit. It is a recent design and it's probably linked with Microsoft's development of DXR, if it wasn't for that Nvidia wouldn't have wasted so much effort on all this.

RTX exists precisely because RTRT it's not developed and pushed forward exclusively by them.
 
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What I think that actually means is that nvidia for the first time has an architecture and process that lets them acheive efficiency that's good enough to cram those rt functions without going overboard with power consumption and keep yields reasonable.
 

ppn

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We don't have game engines to fully utilise all capabilities simultaneously, In case using the RT cores Hits the TDP limit more often therefore dropping to 1350Mhz base frequency. doesn't sound good at all. Well there is the Tombraider that enables RT but we don't have the numbers, I want to see 2025Mhz held constantly at 100% load, the RT cores the tensor, the CUda Cores the INT32 cores working at the same time as efficiently as possible full load.
 
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Yeah, AMD owns the middle low class card devision/s. they will be aiming at that again, OR rather assume they will or take a big leap over green team

I have a feeling that with Navi AMD is going to be competitive in the high-end market again. The Vega cards weren't bad cards, their availability and pricing was just so chaotic because of cryptomining. The best of the Vega 64 variants surpassed the GTX 1080 FE which is impressive and I think that the highest end of the Navi cards will easily surpass a GTX 1080ti FE which would also be quite impressive. They might not beat RTX in terms of performance, but if we are getting cards that are easily beating the high end GTX models (GTX 1070ti, 1080 and 1080ti) at a good price then I will be pretty happy.
 
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The best of the Vega 64 variants surpassed the GTX 1080 FE which is impressive
With GTX 1080 FE being one of the worst of GTX 1080 and Vega 64 being comparable to GTX 1080Ti in every spec point (but not the actual performance, at least for gaming)? No, it was not impressive, it was sad.
 
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With GTX 1080 FE being one of the worst of GTX 1080 and Vega 64 being comparable to GTX 1080Ti in every spec point (but not the actual performance, at least for gaming)? No, it was not impressive, it was sad.

The GTX 1080 FE is not one of the worst GTX 1080 variants, not by a long shot. Also, how is the Vega 64 even comparable to a GTX 1080ti? They are at totally different price points. The MSRP of a Vega 64 is $499.99 and the GTX 1080ti is $699.99 and the Vega 64 sits comfortably between the GTX 1080 and the 1080ti- how is that sad?
 
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The GTX 1080 FE is not one of the worst GTX 1080 variants, not by a long shot. Also, how is the Vega 64 even comparable to a GTX 1080ti? They are at totally different price points. The MSRP of a Vega 64 is $499.99 and the GTX 1080ti is $699.99 and the Vega 64 sits comfortably between the GTX 1080 and the 1080ti- how is that sad?

Price has nothing to do with gpu performance unless youre buying. This is about performance related to die size, power consumption, etc
 
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Also, how is the Vega 64 even comparable to a GTX 1080ti?
Which card/GPU is which?
Die Size: 314 mm² vs 486 mm² vs 471 mm²
Transistors: 7.2 B vs 12.5 B vs 12 B
TDP: 180 W vs 295 W vs 250 W
RAM bandwidth: 320 GB/s vs 484 GB/s vs 484 GB/s
Compute power 8.2 TFLOPS vs 10.2 TFLOPS vs 10.6 TFLOPS
 
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Which card/GPU is which?
Die Size: 314 mm² vs 486 mm² vs 471 mm²
Transistors: 7.2 B vs 12.5 B vs 12 B
TDP: 180 W vs 295 W vs 250 W
RAM bandwidth: 320 GB/s vs 484 GB/s vs 484 GB/s
Compute power 8.2 TFLOPS vs 10.2 TFLOPS vs 10.6 TFLOPS

Again, you are comparing two cards that are in two completely different price brackets. If the Vega 64 had an MSRP of $699.99 we could have this comparison, but the Vega 64 is in the same price bracket as the GTX 1080 which it beats making it the better value. Gotta love all this AMD hate.
 
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For one thing, AMD is selling cards that clearly have (a lot) lower margins.
For another, there is something technically very wrong with Vega as it cannot compete in its own weight class.

Vega's $499 MSRP is/was a lot more fishy than any other MSRP recently. As someone pointed out earlier this thread, $499 MSRP was a "misunderstanding" as MSRP was $599 with $100 worth of games. And that actually was what AMD reps said. Vega 64 was available for the $499 in very limited amounts. And then mining kicked in so god knows what would have happened to the prices otherwise.

Vega has its bright moments but it gets beat by GTX1080, not by much but pretty consistently. Look at TPU performance summary graphs even.
I had a Vega 64 side-by-side with a GTX1080 and that was exactly my experience. Even disregarding the power and heat issues, it just wasn't worth it.
 
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i dont really need to upgrade but the option i would go for if i did has been taken away.. a pair of 2070 cards.. he he

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For one thing, AMD is selling cards that clearly have (a lot) lower margins.
For another, there is something technically very wrong with Vega as it cannot compete in its own weight class.

Vega's $499 MSRP is/was a lot more fishy than any other MSRP recently. As someone pointed out earlier this thread, $499 MSRP was a "misunderstanding" as MSRP was $599 with $100 worth of games. And that actually was what AMD reps said. Vega 64 was available for the $499 in very limited amounts. And then mining kicked in so god knows what would have happened to the prices otherwise.

Vega has its bright moments but it gets beat by GTX1080, not by much but pretty consistently. Look at TPU performance summary graphs even.
I had a Vega 64 side-by-side with a GTX1080 and that was exactly my experience. Even disregarding the power and heat issues, it just wasn't worth it.

What are you talking about? It competes in its own weight class fine. I would start reading some Vega 64 reviews- Sapphire's Nitro+ Vega 64 and Powercooler's Red Devil Vega 64 beat the GTX 1080 in most games, especially Witcher III, Doom, BF 1, Middle Earth: Shadow of War, etc. The funny thing is that the GTX 1080 actually launched at an MSRP of $549 which is higher than the Vega 64's $499, but Vega 64 outperforms the GTX 1080 in most games placing its performance between the 1080 and 1080ti respectfully.
 
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You do realize that Red Devil Vega 64 is a $649 card and Sapphire's Nitro+ started from above $700, right?
And that Vega 64 was launched over a year after GTX1080 and almost half a year after GTX1080Ti?

GTX1080 launched at $599 MSRP but was dropped to $499 when GTX1080Ti came to the picture. That is why Vega's MSRP was what it was.
 
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You do realize that Red Devil Vega 64 is a $649 card and Sapphire's Nitro+ started from above $700, right?
And that Vega 64 was launched over a year after GTX1080 and almost half a year after GTX1080Ti?

GTX1080 launched at $599 MSRP but was dropped to $499 when GTX1080Ti came to the picture. That is why Vega's MSRP was what it was.

That's all because of availability.

Last week the Red Devil 64 was on Newegg for $499.99 and the week before that the Sapphire Nitro+ Vega 64 was selling for $499.99- again the MSRP for both cards is $499.99- if you can get either card in the low $500s or at MSRP then its better than the GTX 1080 hands down.

Again why would you expect a $499.99 card to compete with a $699.99 card?

It goes like this:

Vega 56 > GTX 1070

Vega 64 > GTX 1070ti \ GTX 1080
 
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I don't really care about arguing. Whatever suits for you.
It does not change the fact that AMD is competing in midrange with a GPU that by all measures should be competing in high end.

Edit:
Went over reviews, I knew Red Devil V64 was awesome enough but that Nitro+ seems to be more hype than its worth. I got my Vega64 to higher clocks that reviewers got that in reviews and at a lower power consumption. My recommendation, if you are dead set on Vega, is to get whichever Vega64 is cheap (probably blower ones, for a good reason) and go for water cooling with a fullcover block. That actually has the potential to bring out the best in the card. Cool VRM alongside very cool GPU/RAM should do (small) wonders on a Vega.
 
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I don't really care about arguing. Whatever suits for you.
It does not change the fact that AMD is competing in midrange with a GPU that by all measures should be competing in high end.

Edit:
Went over reviews, I knew Red Devil V64 was awesome enough but that Nitro+ seems to be more hype than its worth. I got my Vega64 to higher clocks that reviewers got that in reviews and at a lower power consumption. My recommendation, if you are dead set on Vega, is to get whichever Vega64 is cheap (probably blower ones, for a good reason) and go for water cooling with a fullcover block. That actually has the potential to bring out the best in the card. Cool VRM alongside very cool GPU/RAM should do (small) wonders on a Vega.

The Nitro+ typically has better performance in games (higher FPS), but the Red Devil runs a bit cooler and the Asus Strix runs somewhere in between. Either of these three would be excellent options, but I am leaning towards the Nitro+ because I have had a Sapphire card before and they are amazing (R9 390X). The Red Devil looks cool, but I do not think that quality of Powercooler is that great to be honest.

Not trying to be difficult, but I'm dead set on Vega because I not only have a Ryzen system, but I will have a FreeSync monitor next month. Have you seen the prices for a decent G-Sync monitor? I could get a brand new GTX 1080ti for that money.

I don't think AMD is the best in terms of GPU performance, but if I can get into GTX 1080 territory with a Vega then I am happy.
 
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That's all because of availability.

Last week the Red Devil 64 was on Newegg for $499.99 and the week before that the Sapphire Nitro+ Vega 64 was selling for $499.99- again the MSRP for both cards is $499.99- if you can get either card in the low $500s or at MSRP then its better than the GTX 1080 hands down.

Again why would you expect a $499.99 card to compete with a $699.99 card?

It goes like this:

Vega 56 > GTX 1070

Vega 64 > GTX 1070ti \ GTX 1080

Again, you completely miss the point being made. Or you just choose to selectively ignore posts. Its not about bashing AMD here, its about realizing the sacrifices required for RT/Tensor on a die, as opposed to not doing so, and how die size translates into performance. Price is artificial, the market decides. Larger die size however directly increases cost, reduces yields, and therefore eats into margins. In that respect, RX Vega has a major problem, and so does Turing with RT/Tensor included. They are big dies that perform less good than one would expect given the size (and risk!) involved into making one.

Cause and effect -> Nvidia's large dies cause major price hikes, and AMDs large dies eat straight into their margins because performance was lacking.

Also, saying a Vega 64 is 'hands down' better than a 1080... I'm not sure what you've been smoking lately, but ehhhh... Its louder and it has less performance at a higher TDP in virtually every single situation you can put it in. Vega 64 with all tweaks it can have will still not surpass a 1080 that runs at 1900 mhz. And the 1080's can go higher still.

 
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the process is holding back rt big time. 7nm is gonna be a leap in rt performance. huge improvements in power consumption and die size is the only way rtrt can really take off.
 
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Again, you completely miss the point being made. Or you just choose to selectively ignore posts. Its not about bashing AMD here, its about realizing the sacrifices required for RT/Tensor on a die, as opposed to not doing so, and how die size translates into performance. Price is artificial, the market decides. Larger die size however directly increases cost, reduces yields, and therefore eats into margins. In that respect, RX Vega has a major problem, and so does Turing with RT/Tensor included. They are big dies that perform less good than one would expect given the size (and risk!) involved into making one.

Cause and effect -> Nvidia's large dies cause major price hikes, and AMDs large dies eat straight into their margins because performance was lacking.

Also, saying a Vega 64 is 'hands down' better than a 1080... I'm not sure what you've been smoking lately, but ehhhh... Its louder and it has less performance at a higher TDP in virtually every single situation you can put it in. Vega 64 with all tweaks it can have will still not surpass a 1080 that runs at 1900 mhz. And the 1080's can go higher still.

[/
 
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I was in the same dilemma over here in europe. But the vega64 is well over €100 more expensive than the gtx1080, with the same or less performance.
I don't find that competitive anymore and went for the obvious choice. So I too expect Navi to be as expensive as a 2080 now, which again will make Amd not competitive in the higher segment.
No doubt they will have some follow ups from the RX series in budget range, but those will battle against the lower end nvidia cards.
So in all fairness, and I really prefer Amd cards for all sorts of reasons, they are just not competitive anymore for more than 60fps gaming. Which I want for games like BF5 etc.

As for raytracing, I suspect it to go the same road as DirextX10 back in the days. Will take some years to mature and become mainstream.
On the other hand, if consoles stay with Amd, and if Amd doesn't adapt to raytracing, it might not be used in games after all. Or share the fate of Nvidia PhysX.
 
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