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Some people accuse TPU of 'bias' towards Nvidia.

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#76
I've debunked some of the comments are down to cherry picking results like Battlefield V and Deus Ex Mankind divided.
DX11 vs DX12. Methodically interesting problem.
- DX:MD and Division work better with DX12 for AMD cards and DX11 for Nvidia cards. If you compare Nvidia DX11 result and AMD DX12 result it is a wash.
- All Battlefields give some edge to AMD with DX12. Recently, DX12 tends to give an edge in average FPS overall. Unfortunately pretty much nobody plays Battlefield with DX12 due to various issues, stuttering being a big one.
https://www.sweclockers.com/test/27014-amd-radeon-vii-forst-ut-pa-7-nanometer/21#content

You do realize the Radeon VII, while not perfect keeps up with the RTX 2080 in DX12 in 2K and 4K high PQ settings go. This isn't isolated to just one or 2 reviews. This spawns across multiple reviews.
It is not DX12 and never was. Vega keeps up well in (heavily) compute-limited games. Convienently, a lot of common games like this that are often benchmarked are DX12. How about Gears of War 4 where AMD cards generally struggle? RoTR/SoTR and Sniper Elite 4 where results are simply competitive?

On paper AMD often offer far more TFLOPS, but in reality they still end up losing.
That... is not as simple as that. AMD and Nvidia spec cards differently. Neither run on base frequency in any real case. AMD rarely reaches boost, Nvidia almost always exceeds boost clock and often by a noticeable amount.
 
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#77
106195.png



Anyone recall this DX12, full on Async game title. This here to remind people saying AMD beats Nvidia at DX12 and Async compute. I'm quite sure there are reasons why Radeon VII is worse than RTX2080 but this result stands as a clear shout out - Turing (& Pascal) can do DX12 and Async to a very high level if Nvidia wants to code for it.
 
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#78
I'm thinking some of the past "Bias" TPU has been accused of comes from other things known about in the past too which, quite frankly could be in play in a few spots here and there today.

Remember how claims were made backdoor deals were done to have the coding within a game to either favor one brand/make or to even do both, favor one while killing performance of ther other?

All that and then have a handpicked "Reviewer" do such with said titles to "Prove" how much better brand "X" was than brand "Y"?
Yeah, that was an interesting time.......

I'm sure among a few places you can visit for reviews this still goes on, at least over what titles to use for the comparison because each as already shown has it's own strengths and weaknesses based on what the game uses within it's coding compared to what the card itself is good at and such.
For example if reviewing an Nvidia item, make sure you select the majority of tests done with game titles that favors Nvidia hardware.

We all know that's certainly possible, my statement above is based on what happened many moons ago by now over accusations made at the time..... And if not mistaken on my part it was said these tests/reviews were skewed towards Nvidia, BUT with all the crap flying around all these years it's hard to recall anything specific. I'm just saying all this talk about TPU being one such reviewer probrably stems from stuff like that going on back then and it's been around eversince.

New USA, get butthurt over everything, SMFH!
I too am wondering of what relevance this has to the thread.
BTW Re-read his statement, then read where he's from slowly...... Do that a few times while you're at it.
 
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#79
Turing (& Pascal) can do DX12 and Async to a very high level if Nvidia wants to code for it.
That's the thing, AMD doesn't need to code anything, it's all done in hardware.
 
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#80
View attachment 116095


Anyone recall this DX12, full on Async game title. This here to remind people saying AMD beats Nvidia at DX12 and Async compute. I'm quite sure there are reasons why Radeon VII is worse than RTX2080 but this result stands as a clear shout out - Turing (& Pascal) can do DX12 and Async to a very high level if Nvidia wants to code for it.
I remember when that game was all over the news about how great DX12 worked on AMD GPUs and I remember thinking at the time that Stardock was hyping the DX12 simply because they were getting a tremendous amount of free publicity out of doing that. Turned out to be a pretty mediocre game anyway. In the 3 years since that game was released DX12 is still not used in many games.
 
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#81
Late to the party again.. I read that review and it doesn't jive with a lot of other reviews from unbiased sources. However W1zzard was using the "press release" driver which has been demonstrated to be problematic. It seems AMD may have jumped the gun on Radeon7's release as the drivers aren't quite retail ready. With a release of more refined drivers, I seems reasonable that Radeon7 will see a measurable improvement.
I'm quite sure there are reasons why Radeon VII is worse than RTX2080
Not by much, and the drivers are "press release". That performance will come up as the drivers are sorted out.

EDIT; I'd like to make clear, I do not fault W1zzard, his review or methodologies. Review numbers from many credible sources show the performance is all over the place and it seems clear that the drivers might be the common problem. Once those problems are sorted out, follow up review will seem in order and will likely give a clearer view of Radeon7's actual performance numbers.
 
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#82
But honestly If amd want to release a card with drivers that do not show its full potential when reviewers get the card that is amd's fault.
Kind of a running issue IMO.

p.s
As for dx 12..
All dx 12 really did was stop Vulcan in its tracks, which is a real shame. a Open source API would have been better for every one, but NVIDIA didn't want any part of that.. I can only speculate why so i wont do that.
But yeah dx 12 killed vulcan and then proceeded to do nothing close to what it should have.
 
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#83
I'm thinking some of the past "Bias" TPU has been accused of comes from other things known about in the past too which, quite frankly could be in play in a few spots here and there today.

Remember how claims were made backdoor deals were done to have the coding within a game to either favor one brand/make or to even do both, favor one while killing performance of ther other?

All that and then have a handpicked "Reviewer" do such with said titles to "Prove" how much better brand "X" was than brand "Y"?
Yeah, that was an interesting time.......

I'm sure among a few places you can visit for reviews this still goes on, at least over what titles to use for the comparison because each as already shown has it's own strengths and weaknesses based on what the game uses within it's coding compared to what the card itself is good at and such.
For example if reviewing an Nvidia item, make sure you select the majority of tests done with game titles that favors Nvidia hardware.

We all know that's certainly possible, my statement above is based on what happened many moons ago by now over accusations made at the time..... And if not mistaken on my part it was said these tests/reviews were skewed towards Nvidia, BUT with all the crap flying around all these years it's hard to recall anything specific. I'm just saying all this talk about TPU being one such reviewer probrably stems from stuff like that going on back then and it's been around eversince.


I too am wondering of what relevance this has to the thread.
BTW Re-read his statement, then read where he's from slowly...... Do that a few times while you're at it.
My point being,that is what is happening in the USA right now. Everyone get's Butthurt over everything.
And you are correct it has no relevance to the thread at all and it was 12 beers, not vodka, though I do
like vodka. Just don't pay any attention to me LOL! ;)
 
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#84
@boise49ers: Gotcha - At least you're honest about it, nothing wrong with that. :toast:

I'm sure once the drivers for it are fixed things will improve, I do hope everyone remembers this is a brandnew arch and it will take time for it to mature properly.
We'll also have to watch and see if devs pick up on this and at least give it a decent chance, I"m sure they will and perhaps the second gen of 7nm will show noticeable improvement too.
 
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#86
Remember how claims were made backdoor deals were done to have the coding within a game to either favor one brand/make or to even do both, favor one while killing performance of ther other?

All that and then have a handpicked "Reviewer" do such with said titles to "Prove" how much better brand "X" was than brand "Y"?
Yeah, that was an interesting time.......
Yeah, I remember quite well & to this day still goes on.:eek:

I was suckered into purchasing an HP AIO PC versus superior Dell & Toshiba models, the last year the latter shipped a PC, before exiting that business. The reviewer cherry picked the 'pros' of the HP, while negating those of the others. The same did likewise with the many negatives of the Dell & Toshiba, yet didn't utter the first word about the DDR2 memory performance of the HP versus the DDR3 of the others. This was when PC hardware was new to me, in 2009 I had yet to own a computer with a dual core CPU, let alone DDR3 RAM. About a month after the release of Windows 7.

The only difference here is one thing......advertising dollars. The particular publication (PC World) would have full cover pack pages of HP, as well as other hardware, plus security software. At any rate, the writer of the article certainly wasn't about to bit the hand of those that keeps their doors open, and if any employee did so, the editor would catch it. Then fire the employee who dared to buck authority.

It's simply hard for me to believe that TPU is of this type. Sure, a hardware/software writer may be biased, I believe to a degree, most of us are. Yet such an opinion doesn't have a place in a neutral setting, where millions upon millions seeks these sites to make informed decisions. On the other hand, in the open forum, if someone asks if X or Y brand is the best, many of the answers may come from those running the brand (& model) they recommend (example, NVIDIA > EVGA or AMD > MSI). This is normal, because unless running a secret online store, the poster isn't getting a red cent for advice given.

As to the best AMD & NVIDIA GPU's, am sure that a game can be found where the cherry picked card is best at. Same for other PC hardware. Games, while largely GPU bound, needs an adequate CPU, plus storage, may as well throw RAM in there also, to prevent bottlenecking. Therefore, it's entirely possible for two of us to have the exact same card from the same lot number, regardless of brand, one of us may excel, the other fall flat on our face. It takes the right collection of hardware, not the GPU alone, to match most of these charts shown on many of these sites. Most lists everything of the build during these tests, while a few doesn't. For that matter, a SSD will perform (or bench) differently due to installed hardware.

So a good rule of thumb is, if one suspects a biased review, Google it! The next & any more afterwards may paint a worse (or better) picture. BTW, an educated consumer is an informed one. Know the specs & what one wants before pulling the trigger.

Because the bottom line is, there's been biased reviews of much everything for a long time, and will be for even longer, get used to it & move on. BTW, how many of these auto commercials have we seen that says 'these aren't professional actors'? May be the truth, yet chances are they have an interest in the brand, example an employee. The ad doesn't state this one way or the other, only they're not paid actors. For every paid actor, there's many doing tryouts for free, or as an intern finishing education to secure employment.

Long story short, do your own research, compare sites, making sure that sub-models (that may have lower performance) are eliminated. Then if there's a final question, ask & make it a point this is what's desired. Don't allow fanboys to persuade you different, I never do this, provided the OP makes this known. It's not my money, spend yours how you please, after all at the end of the day, the buyer of the hardware must be happy, not us, nor any reviewers, free or paid. Reviewers includes those who are getting free hardware (in essence paid) for their opinion. These folks are (very much) on the spot, if leaving a lot of negative feedback on everything received, their supply will be cut off.

Buy & do your review!:toast:

Cat
 
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#87
There is no bias here. Since Kepler when the shift to 104 GPU as the **80 card took place, Nvidia has constantly released better tech than AMD regardless of pricing and other shady dealings. Today they use a 106 GPU in a card that competes with the best AMD has to offer. What is an objective reviewer supposed to write about?
 
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#88
There is no bias here. Since Kepler when the shift to 104 GPU as the **80 card took place, Nvidia has constantly released better tech than AMD regardless of pricing and other shady dealings. Today they use a 106 GPU in a card that competes with the best AMD has to offer. What is an objective reviewer supposed to write about?
It would be a bias to attribute the result to the gpus, not cpus.
 
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#89
Well, to be honest, I don't feel like the Radeon VII is a bad card, or that there is a TPU bias towards Nvidia, after seeing the numbers here and on other sites.

It's just that the VII's performance was lower than the 2080, with higher power consumption, heat and noise, at the same price. I honestly don't even think people (besides some of us here and others on similar forums) care much about DLSS or RTX right now. If the card was priced at least 75-100 USD less than Nvidia's offering, that would help people think "Okay, it's not exactly 2080 level, but its price tag is not as high, so I'm buying the Radeon card instead of Nvidia's". However, I kinda have my reservations about this latter point, due to how... volatile, the market can be, and the rumor that the number of VII cards is really low.

Another thing I'll add is that JayzTwoCents had some trouble when reviewing his card, like games getting stuck, black screens, excessively high temps (+110 ºC), etc. He called AMD and it seemed like some of the issues were already known by the company. Some of those problems were solved by using pre-release drivers, that were still being worked on and were not even beta-ready. Other issues persisted or were partially mitigated (the high temps, for example, went down 10 ºC just by using that special driver). His general feeling about the Radeon VII is that it is a good product, but AMD should have held back the launch until most of those issues were ironed out...
 

cdawall

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#90
That's the thing, AMD doesn't need to code anything, it's all done in hardware.
No it performs poorly across the board without anyone helping it out. You are absolutely correct.
 
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#91
Review numbers from many credible sources show the performance is all over the place and it seems clear that the drivers might be the common problem. Once those problems are sorted out, follow up review will seem in order and will likely give a clearer view of Radeon7's actual performance numbers.
Most of the issues with Radeon VII drivers seem to be about the new management unit. This is supposedly the part that needed API updates and as a new thing can easily cause instability. However, the compute units and everything related to rendering is pretty much the same as Vega10 (Vega64/56). I would not expect big and sudden performance changes from new drivers - work on optimizing everything for Vega has been going on for a year and a half now.

That's the thing, AMD doesn't need to code anything, it's all done in hardware.
What you are referring to is a different problem. Although this seems to be a popular opinion, developer is not required to write a queue scheduler for Nvidia GPUs that AMD has in hardware. This is pretty much done by Nvidia as part of API implementation in drivers.

The way you write things - in this case, Async compute/shaders - can be different in terms of how efficient it for a specific architecture or vendor. The way AMD and Nvidia recommend writing for Async shaders is simply different. Not right/wrong or better/worse, just different. This is part of low-level APIs. To have a game or engine efficient for both vendors you need to consider the code path.

Edit:
ComputerBase ran a bunch of API tests across Vega64 Radeon VII and RTX2080:
https://www.computerbase.de/2019-02...abschnitt_directx_12_vulkan_und_async_compute
 
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#92
I think there was a thread somewhere noting AoTS had demoted from asynch shaders to async compute(software).
 
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#93
I think there was a thread somewhere noting AoTS had demoted from asynch shaders to async compute(software).
What is the difference between async shaders and async compute?
 
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#94
What is the difference between async shaders and async compute?
Yeah, very much: 10-20%. The stated post referenced how it was and came to be using TH benching, so it was convincing, but maybe I should just search on TH, instead. Apparently, the narrative is Oxide caved in along the way...
 
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#95
This is pretty much done by Nvidia as part of API implementation in drivers.
And therefore not in hardware so there will be an overhead. Fundamentally, this will remain a disadvantage.
 
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#96
And therefore not in hardware so there will be an overhead. Fundamentally, this will remain a disadvantage.
Not sure about the remain part though. Volta/Turing appear to be doing fine in terms of async compute.
 
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#97
I see your point. I guess what leaves me off-put is the constant comparison to Nvidia. Which is really my problem. I have no interest in Nvidia or their products...for personal reasons. Thus...I don't really care how other products stack up compared to theirs. I don't care how theirs perform. I don't care how much theirs cost. I don't care if for the same price theirs is better. I don't care if for a lesser price theirs is better. I JUST DO NOT CARE ABOUT NVIDIA. But I realize other people do. And that for a review something usually needs compared to something else to make certain points about it. I just wish it wasn't always a comparison to Nvidia somethings. Is that sensible or reasonable? Probably not. None-the-less...I don't like it.
well,do you realize that ? cause it seems to me you do not.
brand loyalty is not a part of the final score.


i do think TPU's review of the R VII is probably one of the harshest ones but i wouldnt call biast.

.
oh there are worse ones,believe me.
The only ones that are favourable consist of a tiny bunch of games that amd generally does well at,and that's the problem.The card is very inconsistent. It beats 2080 in avg. fps as many times as it loses to 2070 in min. fps. Highly priced,based on exactly the same uarch as 2017 Vega with no changes. You can sugarcoat it or look at the reults and say it how it is.
 
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#99
Your link does not work...
Edit: I mean, cmon, screenshot of a forum thread with a screenshot of a Youtube video.
Edit2: This is the video, at 7:11
 
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I would not expect big and sudden performance changes from new drivers
Not huge, but the PR drivers VS the beta drivers showed distinct differences, enough to change the balance of how the Radeon7 compares to competing cards. It will be interesting to see how this turns out.
 
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