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Still waiting for USB-C to become the de facto display connection standard...

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... but AMD doesn't include it on any of their cards, NVIDIA only includes it on their highest-end models, and monitors with it command a ridiculous price premium over identical models that lack the connector.

And it's been half a decade already since DP alternate mode over USB-C was announced.

I just want to be able to connect my monitor to my PC with a single cable, and not have to connect another bloody cable to use the USB hub on the monitor. Or to be able to daisy-chain my monitors with a single cable to the PC. I was hoping that X570 boards would enable alt mode on their USB-C ports so that you could do a passthrough if your graphics card doesn't have the port, but nope.
 
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last time I was shopping, just before the release of the enxt biug thing, I was looking for a cable that could do ULMB 10 bit / 120 Hz and the lack thereof was one of the reasons i didn't much anticipate the latest 4k 144 hz screens.

I no likie monitor USB ports .... that is hanging down from monitor frame. I want a monitor stand with built in wireless phone charger and 8 USB ports.
 
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That would be nice indeed... But I would rather have a 25% price cut across the board for GPUs.
 
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... but AMD doesn't include it on any of their cards, NVIDIA only includes it on their highest-end models, and monitors with it command a ridiculous price premium over identical models that lack the connector.

And it's been half a decade already since DP alternate mode over USB-C was announced.

I just want to be able to connect my monitor to my PC with a single cable, and not have to connect another bloody cable to use the USB hub on the monitor. Or to be able to daisy-chain my monitors with a single cable to the PC. I was hoping that X570 boards would enable alt mode on their USB-C ports so that you could do a passthrough if your graphics card doesn't have the port, but nope.
That's not quite how it works though.
Technically, any graphics card could support it, but it requires extra parts, which adds extra cost. Not only do you need the USB host controller, but you also need a MUX and a few other chips and I guess due to a lack of monitors with support for DP over USB-C as an input option, the card makers simply don't seem to think it's worth it.
I would expect more and more laptops to support it though, but it's going to take time, as always...

Also, a small point you might've missed, the USB part when using USB-C for DP signals, is only running at 2.0 speeds.

On top of that, I'm not sure the USB-C port on the Nivida cards will do what you want, as that's a VirtualLink compatible port, which has a different pin definition...
Compare that to
 
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It's not going to happen. DisplayPort connectors have more physical links with better electrical properties. USB-C doesn't have a high enough SNR/clock rate to handle 8K+ (32.4 Gb/s versus 10 Gb/s)

I think the only reason why high end graphics cards have USB-C is expressly for VR headsets where they need display and sensor data over a cable that can be easily managed.

Also, USB-C connectors supporting DisplayPort must be physically linked to the GPU because there's no way to route the display signal through the PCI Express bus.


I've never used a USB hub in a monitor. I see no point for it so all my monitors only have two cables: video and power in.
 
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I no likie monitor USB ports .... that is hanging down from monitor frame. I want a monitor stand with built in wireless phone charger and 8 USB ports.
Didn't Asus do a monitor with induction phone charging? No USB hub though afaik...
 

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Usb-c, for dummies
 

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Graphics card vendors will want to avoid putting more than one USB-C port because then people will start plugging in many power-hungry USB devices into their graphics card, screwing up the card's overall power-consumption metric, and if those devices are bandwidth-hungry as well (think external NVMe enclosures), they could affect the GPU's performance. NVIDIA already implemented USBC (up to one port), but it would cost AMD nothing to catch up. AMD already has full USB-IF membership since it makes motherboard chipsets and SoCs with integrated USB.

That said, I suspect AMD made an attempt at giving Navi USBC, but aborted it in the last minute. Unlike NVIDIA, AMD probably planned to use an external USB 3.1 controller. There are some telltale signs on Navi reference PCB:

(again, I could be wrong, and this could be pure bullshit)

55a.jpg


This is what miniDP looks like from behind (clearly different from USBC):

129659
 
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Oh. I'm not. I think you might be overestimating the demand for this.
 

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Graphics card vendors will want to avoid putting more than one USB-C port because then people will start plugging in many power-hungry USB devices into their graphics card, screwing up the card's overall power-consumption metric, and if those devices are bandwidth-hungry as well (think external NVMe enclosures), they could affect the GPU's performance. NVIDIA already implemented USBC (up to one port), but it would cost AMD nothing to catch up. AMD already has full USB-IF membership since it makes motherboard chipsets and SoCs with integrated USB.

That said, I suspect AMD made an attempt at giving Navi USBC, but aborted it in the last minute. Unlike NVIDIA, AMD probably planned to use an external USB 3.1 controller. There are some telltale signs on Navi reference PCB:

(again, I could be wrong, and this could be pure bullshit)

View attachment 129658

This is what miniDP looks like from behind (clearly different from USBC):

View attachment 129659
USB-C has 24 contacts: 12 on two rows.

DisplayPort mini has 20.


I think those are all DisplayPort Mini where 10 contacts are through PCB and 10 are not (20 total). They could be Thunderbolt connectors for Macs which totally makes sense.
 
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Graphics card vendors will want to avoid putting more than one USB-C port because then people will start plugging in many power-hungry USB devices into their graphics card, screwing up the card's overall power-consumption metric, and if those devices are bandwidth-hungry as well (think external NVMe enclosures), they could affect the GPU's performance. NVIDIA already implemented USBC (up to one port), but it would cost AMD nothing to catch up. AMD already has full USB-IF membership since it makes motherboard chipsets and SoCs with integrated USB.

That said, I suspect AMD made an attempt at giving Navi USBC, but aborted it in the last minute. Unlike NVIDIA, AMD probably planned to use an external USB 3.1 controller. There are some telltale signs on Navi reference PCB:

(again, I could be wrong, and this could be pure bullshit)

This is what miniDP looks like from behind (clearly different from USBC):
High power USB Power Delivery mode enables via certificate. The cable controller and the end device does a communication and only on protocol confirm it fires up the charging. There are various protocols already... quick charge, super fast charge, pump whatever charge... (it never ends, ironically...). Each of their own talks to the device and only then those modes are enabled. By default it will end up using 0.5/0.9A data communication or 1.5A dumb charging mode, haven't seen any device using the 2.0A mode. IE... it not like you can attach a hallogen bulb like dummy 50W load to a TYPE C and it will ignite...
 

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USB-C has 24 contacts: 12 on two rows.

DisplayPort mini has 20.


I think those are all DisplayPort Mini where 10 contacts are through PCB and 10 are not (20 total). They could be Thunderbolt connectors for Macs which totally makes sense.
Here's a pic of an RTX 2080 PCB with a USB-C port in place. Tell me it doesn't look like that Navi PCB.

129664


129665
 
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There's definitely 12 (maybe 14?) thru PCB on there.

Your arrow covered it up. :roll: Yeah, they do look identical and that can't be a coincidence.
Here's the highest possible resolution side-by-side I could come up with.

57a.jpg


Here's a close-up of the square pad where the external USB 3.1 controller is supposed to go, along with a few other things blanked out (an 8-pin ROM chip for the USB controller, and a few electrical components). Even on the back-side there are many blank electrical components wired to where that USB-C port is supposed to go:

57b.jpg
 
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Color me convinced. It is identical.
 
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The Nvidia cards still have a VirtualLink connector, which isn't really USB-C as we know it...
It can't deliver as much power and as you can see below, the pin-out is quite different when it come to where the data pins are for USB data.
On the plus side, it's a DP 1.4 capable, whereas USB-C alt. mode is not, if you also want to get USB 3.x data at the same time.


Compared to USB-C

Source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/13088/virtuallink-announced-standardized-connector-for-vr-headsets
 
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The Nvidia cards still have a VirtualLink connector, which isn't really USB-C as we know it...
It can't deliver as much power and as you can see below, the pin-out is quite different when it come to where the data pins are for USB data.
On the plus side, it's a DP 1.4 capable, whereas USB-C alt. mode is not, if you also want to get USB 3.x data at the same time.


Compared to USB-C

Source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/13088/virtuallink-announced-standardized-connector-for-vr-headsets
Nothing that isn't technically feasible. You get two ports from that ASMT controller, one in gen 3.1 mode, and the other can run at 2.0, the rest is probably handled by the Navi10 ASIC by multiplexing TMDS (for the HMD displays) and other low-bandwidth interfaces. Just the two USB links provide enough bandwidth for the HMD's audio and input.

AMD either ran into IP issues, or cost issues, or it simply didn't feel that VL is market-relevant right now. If something changes and VL suddenly becomes relevant, we could see new revisions of Navi cards with VL ports. Navi's VRM looks strong enough to pull off USB-PD without affecting the card's overall electrical stability.
 
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One cable to rule them all but it is taking forever to become relevant! Still it is a terrific concept.
 
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And I want USB-C to ship with default USB 3 (? Idk what they renamed it to again) 10 Gbps speed and 5V 3A current rating at the least.

USB-C is just a connector at this point. With varying amount of current (for laptop charging) and speed (My Galaxy A5 2017 is USB 2.0 protocol over USB-C. Wtf?!).

Not to mention Intel execs changing USB name every few years or so. Did you guys see the naming scheme of Ice Lake and Comet Lake CPUs? It's just a mess.
 
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It is shit idea. The connector is small vs the cable isolation needed + limitations.

In gen 3.1 mode we have 10Gbps. Add overhead and loss due the EMI, poor routing, minus 20-30%.

So what we have? Around 7-8 Gbps? It is not capable of stable 4K30FPS. Only FHD@60. You could do it with DP, as it has compression, but still the reality will strike this idea on its knees.

It needs HDMI 2.1 with DSC at least to make it feasable.
 

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It is shit idea. The connector is small vs the cable isolation needed + limitations.
VL uses normal TMDS for digital video, it doesn't use USB bandwidth. The VL pin-map shows you TMDS lanes labeled as "DP".
 
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It is shit idea. The connector is small vs the cable isolation needed + limitations.

In gen 3.1 mode we have 10Gbps. Add overhead and loss due the EMI, poor routing, minus 20-30%.

So what we have? Around 7-8 Gbps? It is not capable of stable 4K30FPS. Only FHD@60. You could do it with DP, as it has compression, but still the reality will strike this idea on its knees.

It needs HDMI 2.1 with DSC at least to make it feasable.
Agreed, there is a reason all these standards and connectors exist.
 
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VL uses normal TMDS for digital video, it doesn't use USB bandwidth. The VL pin-map shows you TMDS lanes labeled as "DP".
HDMI alternate mode operates on average under same speed limits, and gets hit by the same problems. The medium doesn't allow more. It is only HDMI 1.4B. It is... basically EOL rubbish.


There is clearly stated:

Q: What about HDMI 2.0b, will that be supported?
A: This specification supports HDMI 1.4b. The HDMI Forum is responsible for the HDMI 2.0b specification and they have not made any public statements regarding the HDMI Alt Mode for the HDMI 2.0b spec.
And getting down to earth... even HDMI 2.0 is such mess with 4K HDR enabled TV's. With crap or long cables and more polluted EMI environment, the signal get's cut off. It is a problem for many. The cable already has reached their physical limit. IF you add up crap type C connector + cable designed for 1m lenght? Ke? You can introduce only software cheats to tame the bandwidth requirements as compression. And yet it is not done.

Basically... it is all rubbish talk, what we are doing here.

Also I didn't get the point about NAVI VRM being capable. Totally off the boat... It is totally unrelated.
 

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder
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USB-C should not be a display connector. In fact, it shouldn't be used as a "do all" connector. Everyone seems to want everything to be USB-C, but the result of that would just be confusion, because it would be impossible to wire up USB-C to do everything. It can't be a thunderbolt connector, a displayport connector, a USB 3.1 connector, provide power, etc..

There is a reason that we moved away from using ports that looked the same, but did different functions, it confused the end user. A USB port should be used for USB data and power, and that's it. Use a different connector for that other stuff. Otherwise you have to deal with people trying to plug a USB 3.1 hard drive into their USB-C Thunderbolt port and wondering why it doesn't work. The cost is too high to wire all that stuff to one port and make it intelligent enough to detect what is plugged in.

Plus, IMO, the USB-C connector is too flimsy to be used as a display connector. It's the same reason I disliked mini-HDMI. I had so many of those cables die because just the weight of the cable over time damaged the tiny connector. We should just be using Displayport, it has the ability to carry USB signals. So if a monitor has a built in USB hub, route it through the displayport cable, and the graphics card manufacturers should be providing USB through displayport as well. It's a much more robust connector.
 
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