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The Official Thermal Interface Material thread

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Regarding the 1,000 HP (or 1,001 HP if you like :D), I would translate this to an electrical car as it has more binding to electronics.

Oh, this is for sure - not true...not true at all! :cool:
Oh yes, I absolutely agree with KLiKzg, but the term horsepower is a bit of a rabbit hole ;) . There are quite some different anotations for horsepower if not properly specified, see link.

But assuming the most logical in this scenario (automotive related), we would go for mechanical and to keep it simple in metric, yeah I'm from Europe :rockout: (if you insist on using Imperial the conversion coefficient is 745.7).

So the one thousend horsepower is about; 1,000 PS x ~735.5 = 735,500 W equivalent.

So if you have a 1,000 PS electrical motor it has a general estimated peak efficiency of 75% to 90%, then you need to dissipiate around 10 to 25% of the power loss that of which the most is converted into heat.

735,500 W x 25% = 183,875 W or 735,500 x 10% = 73,550 W in heat that needs to be dissipiated, thus somewhere between 73,500 and 184,000 W (not really a realistic scenario compared to a pc).

Most of it will be dissipiated to the air but I can imagine a form of a heat recovery system uses the waste energy to heat some components/systems and thats a typical scheme where the TIM can do it's job. I would not be suprised if the GD900 thermal paste meets some car manufacterers acceptance criteria and it actually is used in that industry as Shrek mentioned.

Above is just an example of how I would see practical use of TIM in this sector on those powerful components and the calculation criteria just based on common sense with the aformentioned numbers from previous posts.
Keep in mind that motors in electric cars may very well be far more efficient as the values I used in my example (these are just averages from the industries).

1 mW would related to a power of app. 1,360 PS, which even for a powerful car is overkill.

Besides the whole smokescreen of very powerfull electrical motors, back on topic;

In the present electrical cars there is quite some powerfull computing going on too, those computing systems need to be cooled also (pretty much comparible to what we do with our pc's), so the idea of TIM in the automotive sector is not far of the truth at all, they can also no do without it imo.
Just the acceptance and rejection criteria for a certain TIM in the automotive sector would have been nice to know, we can really make use of the knowledge those engineers have gathered.
 
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What you're saying here is that a CPU has 0% efficiency and 100% loss on heat :confused: .

Please send me a link with a profound subtantiation of this dared statement and I will leave the retirement home to pick up teaching again :D.

I do agree however on the fact that there is at this moment not any CPU that draws 1 mW of power. It's more leaning towards the range of power usage for a small supercomputer.

Are you serious here or are you joking?

Yup, my mistake, don't understand why I confused it with 1 kW (I have to stop posting after 4 glasses of wine :oops:). That changes the numbers by a factor 1,000 up.
Hope you and Lex accept my apologies and had a good laugh. I was most likely reasoning within the range of pc's where 1 kW is already high-end.
Feel like a dork now, but after rereading my post and despite the exorbitant numbers and stupid mistake, the logic behind the use of a TIM in the automotive sector stands.

And making a fool of yourself, is one of the signs of old age. The perks of it is, it goes by with silly old man ;) and is forgotten soon after.
I'll edit the previous post now
 
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You have to stay after class, extra lessons needed without the distraction of the nice b00bies next to you :roll:.

What you're saying here is that a CPU has 0% efficiency and 100% loss on heat :confused: .

Please send me a link with a profound subtantiation of this dared statement and I will leave the retirement home to pick up teaching again :D.

I do agree however on the fact that there is at this moment not any CPU that draws 1 mW of power. It's more leaning towards the range of power usage for a small supercomputer.



Yup, my mistake, don't understand why I confused it with 1 kW (I have to stop posting after 4 glasses of wine :oops:). That changes the numbers by a factor 1,000 up.
Hope you and Lex accept my apologies and had a good laugh. I was most likely reasoning within the range of pc's where 1 kW is already high-end.
Feel like a dork now, but after rereading my post and despite the exorbitant numbers and stupid mistake, the logic behind the use of a TIM in the automotive sector stands.

And making a fool of yourself, is one of the signs of old age. The perks of it is, it goes by with silly old man ;) and is forgotten soon after.
I'll edit the previous post now
Yes that's exactly what I'm saying.

A processor does not turn electrical energy into centrifugal energy. Which would be an electric motor. Which also is not 100% effecient.

So YES ALL THE ELECTRCAL ENERGY is converted to thermal energy in a CPU. Period.

edit:

Here's that link.

 
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For a CPU, ALL of the energy in electrical wattage is converted to thermal wattage. What you put in, comes out as heat.

And yes it is true!

HP is cetrifugal force converted to wattage. This is not the wattage put into the engine which is a liquid fuel. Engines are roughly only 30% effecient on average.

So, NO. There is no at home PC running a single cpu at 1Mw of power. Nor if HP measured by the energy put in, but what comes out.
I do not think so, as it would be so - then output from CPU will be only heat & no work done. As it works & you have written this post, so it is not 100%.
Is it something like light bulb ih 99,8% in heat? Or like LEDs with 97~98%? Maybe, I do not know...someone more expert here can tell that!
But certainly it is not 100%!

Actually, when you add gearbox to the engine, you get sthg around 15~22% efficiency. :cool:

& no, I was not talking about CPU for 1MW.
I was talking about a car, in which one single device can gobb through 1MW of power & deliver them to the motors, which spin the other stuff to spin the wheels. ;)
 
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I saw @Noci posting a pic of a TG Kryonaut satchel and another TG TIM satchel.

He also mentioned owning a tube of good ol' MX-4.

I don't know if you guys know this, but the Arctic MX-4 and the Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut are the two most widely counterfeit (by the Chinese) TIM's in the market.

The problem, especially with the MX-4, is so bad that one has a good chance of purchasing counterfeit TIM if buying outside authorized vendors b/c the Chinese have come up with astonishingly good copies of the MX-4 and they keep doing this every year and every time Arctic change the MX-4's package and tube design.

I have no idea what kind of profit the Chinese make and what else could possibly justify this obsessive Chinese campaign vs Arctic.de and Thermal Grizzly, also a German company.

You are not going to blv this but Derbauer (AKA Der8auer) even managed to dig up fake Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut sold directly by Amazon.com. The problem of counterfeit TG Kryonaut for TG and Derbauer was so extensive that it took them weeks to shut down the distributor who was pushing the counterfeit TGK in the USA and they barely made it.

So if you own MX-4, especially the most recent batches 2019 and hence, and TG TIM's there's a good chance yours is counterfeit and you should look into it. The Chinese even happily sell counterfeit TIM in the USA through Amazon, imagine what is sold in Albania.
 
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Arctic implemented a QR code check quite a few years ago when MX-5 was first released.
No idea if TG has one.
 
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I do not think so, as it would be so - then output from CPU will be only heat & no work done. As it works & you have written this post, so it is not 100%.
Is it something like light bulb ih 99,8% in heat? Or like LEDs with 97~98%? Maybe, I do not know...someone more expert here can tell that!
But certainly it is not 100%!

Actually, when you add gearbox to the engine, you get sthg around 15~22% efficiency. :cool:

& no, I was not talking about CPU for 1MW.
I was talking about a car, in which one single device can gobb through 1MW of power & deliver them to the motors, which spin the other stuff to spin the wheels. ;)
Well, I wish there was actually physical work being done, but your incorrect. In fact, there's already loss before the CPU used anything. From the wall, to the PSU (which has a fan to dissipate heat) and that electrical conversion is just that, 120v down to 12v and 5v. That causes heat. You haven't even used the cpu yet.

So you get digital information that is processed. This is not a physic entity until written to memory (MEM or HDD/SSD) and that costs energy. Turned off, the data is useless. You must use energy, ergo, create heat to retrieve the information. The only physical thing that is converted to the centrifugal motion is a stack of platters and an arm that moves back and forth in a hard drive. Some case fans. LEDs FAR FAR more efficient than a cpu. you can see in the dark. Or waste energy looking rainbow puke cool man!

Yes, Photons themselves can create heat. Lasers need cooling because the photons create that much heat. Which is electrical energy converted into a photon.

There is VAST amounts of waste heat just so you can play a video game, which the human body doesn't NEED, it's all wasted byproduct of our own digital adventures. You just sit there. It's not even on the healthy scale unless you run into a wall with your VR headset. lol. Wave your arms playing tennis w/e... lol.

14700K rated 253w must be dissipated as such. I don't care who you are, what you think or say. The CPU is actually LESS than 0% efficient in all reality.

TDP = THERMAL design point.


I mean, where do you think all that energy goes? Does the CPU spin like a fan? Does it light up and emit photons? Conservation of energy. Since there is exactly ZERO work being produced physically, the measurement of a CPU is 0% efficient. you're not measuring anything except heat.
 
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Well, I wish there was actually physical work being done, but your incorrect. In fact, there's already loss before the CPU used anything. From the wall, to the PSU (which has a fan to dissipate heat) and that electrical conversion is just that, 120v down to 12v and 5v. That causes heat. You haven't even used the cpu yet.

So you get digital information that is processed. This is not a physic entity until written to memory (MEM or HDD/SSD) and that costs energy. Turned off, the data is useless. You must use energy, ergo, create heat to retrieve the information. The only physical thing that is converted to the centrifugal motion is a stack of platters and an arm that moves back and forth in a hard drive. Some case fans. LEDs FAR FAR more efficient than a cpu. you can see in the dark. Or waste energy looking rainbow puke cool man!

Yes, Photons themselves can create heat. Lasers need cooling because the photons create that much heat. Which is electrical energy converted into a photon.

There is VAST amounts of waste heat just so you can play a video game, which the human body doesn't NEED, it's all wasted byproduct of our own digital adventures. You just sit there. It's not even on the healthy scale unless you run into a wall with your VR headset. lol. Wave your arms playing tennis w/e... lol.

14700K rated 253w must be dissipated as such. I don't care who you are, what you think or say. The CPU is actually LESS than 0% efficient in all reality.

TDP = THERMAL design point.


I mean, where do you think all that energy goes? Does the CPU spin like a fan? Does it light up and emit photons? Conservation of energy. Since there is exactly ZERO work being produced physically, the measurement of a CPU is 0% efficient. you're not measuring anything except heat.
Well, if there is anything less than 0% efficient, you'd violate the conservation of energy, and have a perpetual motion machine of the first kind. :p

That being said, a computer is close to 100% efficient for the purpose of heating the room, perhaps only appreciated in temperate winter, except for the little bit of energy escaping as WiFi signals, EMI, and maybe RGB lighting. About as good as a dumb space heater, but way less than a heat pump.

Actual computational efficiency is measured with things like picojoules per bit of data processed in some fashion. It is not all about mechanical work. Current top-end PC does similar amount of compute as something that would have needed a small substation in 2000.
 
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Well, if there is anything less than 0% efficient, you'd violate the conservation of energy, and have a perpetual motion machine of the first kind. :p

That being said, a computer is close to 100% efficient for the purpose of heating the room, perhaps only appreciated in temperate winter, except for the little bit of energy escaping as WiFi signals, EMI, and maybe RGB lighting. About as good as a dumb space heater, but way less than a heat pump.

Actual computational efficiency is measured with things like picojoules per bit of data processed in some fashion. It is not all about mechanical work. Current top-end PC does similar amount of compute as something that would have needed a small substation in 2000.
Yeah I can get on that train. 100% efficient at converting electrical energy to a thermal energy.

As far as work produced, as in physical labor, its only a conversion of energy. that's it. That's how energy use is measured. By the work it performs.

All digital data is an energy consumption hog. Servers running all day just so you can read what I just sent through MULTILPLE processors before it hit your eyeball.
 
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Yeah I can get on that train. 100% efficient at converting electrical energy to a thermal energy.

As far as work produced, as in physical labor, its only a conversion of energy. that's it. That's how energy use is measured. By the work it performs.

All digital data is an energy consumption hog. Servers running all day just so you can read what I just sent through MULTILPLE processors before it hit your eyeball.
...Without which you'd need snail mail, like the old correspondence societies if you'd get to do it at all, with physical delivery that could take months, and rather a lot of manual housekeeping work.

Going digital has actually been surprisingly efficient.
 
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...Without which you'd need snail mail, like the old correspondence societies if you'd get to do it at all, with physical delivery that could take months, and rather a lot of manual housekeeping work.

Going digital has actually been surprisingly efficient.
Thats not my point jah know? cpu only. The electrical energy is simply converted to heat. period.
No physical work to measure. 0% efficient.
I have nothing more. cause there's nothing more to it lol.

How much thermal paste? enough to cover the cpu please.
 
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After my fifth glas of wine ;) last night (or was it the whole bottle?), intrigued by the persistence of @ShrimpBrime's statement I forced myself to read the material in the link he sent.
And I have to stand corrected, he (& JWNoctis) is/are right, It pretty much comes up to the first and second laws of thermodynamics it just didn't feel logical to me last night. Shows you're never too old to learn.

So yeah, without diving deep in theories one can safely assume with an chip 100% of (electrical) energy going in is equal to 100% energy coming out, here converted in the form of heat.

It does make me realize I also completly missed the boat using the term efficiency in relation to energy consumption of a CPU, it's not about it's energy consumption in relation to energy output.

A quote from the all knowing internet ;) regarding CPU effiency:

The performance per watt ratio is a measure of how much computational performance a system delivers for every watt of power it consumes. It's a metric used to gauge the energy efficiency of computer hardware. A higher ratio indicates that a system can deliver more performance with less energy, making it more efficient.

back on topic, regarding TIM's;

To @PassportBro , I bought my 20g syringe MX-4 about twelve years ago directly from Arctic (and it's still going strong, no problems with shelflife) and the PhaseSheet & KryoSheet from Thermal Grizzly recently, so I'm pretty sure they are not counterfeit.

Arctic implemented a QR code check quite a few years ago when MX-5 was first released.
No idea if TG has one.
On the ThermalGrizzly packaging it states for the KryoSheet; made in EU and for the PhaseSheet PTM; engineerd in Germany.

So it's safe to assume the PhaseSheet PTM is produced outside of the EU, could even be by Honeywell for all I know as they are specialists with complete production lines and ThermalGrizzly has reputation of high quality to maintain.
But thats just speculation on my side, might as well come from some Chinese manufacterer and I don't really care if the product meets the quality standards and delivers what it is supposed to.

Regarding the KryoSheet, manufactering Graphene sheets in this way is a rather young technology and as far as I know still evolving/developing. Perhaps it comes from this company in France: https://www.graphene-production.com/
graphene.png

and the statement it conducts 10 times better than Copper and 5 times better than Diamond made me decide to give it a go.

No holo seals or whatever on the packaging of ThermalGrizzly to check if it's authenticity.
 
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Sorry, we were talking about TIMs so I naturally thought 1MW of heat output...
Again, I said: that paste was used on a device which had 1MW of power...I did not specify that it is heat or what was the power or how it was generated.

Automotive NDA are strict! :cool:
 
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My thermal paste popped last night. Using TM30, which isn't great for a water loop, seems to pop at about -65c at the cold plate. Had to hang it up afterwards.

Nice thing is that the pot is no longer stuck and you just pick it up and empty it. But I like the paste because it's cheap and local. Walmart carries it. Lol

Clean break.

20240924_111611.jpg
 
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NT-H2? Yes. NT-H1? Not some much. Once applied, the stuff dries out fast(2 to 3 months) and loses a good 10% of it effectiveness, which is entirely unacceptable. I have seen and measured this personally. I won't touch it again. If you're going to go with a Noctua TIM, go with NT-H2 and avoid the first one like the plague.
I don't know what you did differently, but the H1 that came with my U12A didn't dry out after a year, at which time I switched to AIO testing.
I understand the compatibility issue...but not sure about the "we don't wanna be Intel, bending IHS...", like there is an issue with that? Once you put it in, you do not remove it.
Peckers aside, it's real. the combo of "high" temps and uneven pressure eventually causes some bending. I can't imagine that it is much, although it's enough to decrease contact.

have PTM7950 installed on my cpu right now. I have done at least 10 heating and cooling cycles. I am not sure on the exact count but it is a lot. When I was comparing Kryonaught extreme to Kryosheet, I only ran the stress test for 5 minutes because the thermal results were extremely consistent from 30 seconds in. I did not see a reason to go longer if the numbers wouldn't meaningfully change. In my testing so far, PTM7950 performed 1c worse than the kryosheet after 5 minutes of stress testing. Ambient temperature was the same so I am as confident in these results as I can be.

I did have an odd behavior. After almost exactly 20 minutes of stress testing, the temperature rapidly dropped 5c giving me a new personal best at 73c. I am not entirely certain why this is happening. I wish I had tested Kryonaught Extreme and Kryosheet for a 30 minute run before hand to know if this behavior is unique to PTM7950
Have you seen Igor's Lab's article about this? He did burn-ins 10 times in a row, and finally got to the point where the temps were almost consistent. The recommendation I've seen for a burn-in for it is 30 min @50C.
Sorry, we were talking about TIMs so I naturally thought 1MW of heat output...
That is exactly why I detest the use of watts to measure heat production. Better to use degrees C/W.
 

Count von Schwalbe

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BTU/h for the win.
Conversion chart in a link above in post #1508. Watt to BTU conversion.

253w CPU is generating 865 BTU/hr. That's not a great deal of heat.
Well for a processor, I suppose that's a lot haha.
A small space heater would be like 800w for a small room, say 10x12.

The idea is having a thermal interface material that can quickly move thermal energy between to flat surfaces tightly fit together.

I think that the idea of thermal paste is to fill in that slight gap. In my often over-looked, less cared for opinion is that, a thin thermal paste would do great where there are less imperfections between the surfaces to fill.
 
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Peckers aside, it's real. the combo of "high" temps and uneven pressure eventually causes some bending. I can't imagine that it is much, although it's enough to decrease contact.
Well, TDP for CPUs is ~100°C...which is about 1/10 to the melting point of Cu...so no, it is not "high temp" at all, nor it is bent because of the melting of Cu material.

Uneven pressure might be for bending, as Cu is such a soft material.

But even still, bending of CPU IHS is mainly done on edges, which are by their design - tougher then the flat surface. So bending those, might come from really strong force & great disbalance.
It is bending in the middle of CPU IHS, which is the problem & the source why a paste or a pad needs to be placed. Hence this topic.

Peckers, aside. If you will! ;)
 
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Well, TDP for CPUs is ~100°C...which is about 1/10 to the melting point of Cu...so no, it is not "high temp" at all, nor it is bent because of the melting of Cu material.

Uneven pressure might be for bending, as Cu is such a soft material.

But even still, bending of CPU IHS is mainly done on edges, which are by their design - tougher then the flat surface. So bending those, might come from really strong force & great disbalance.
It is bending in the middle of CPU IHS, which is the problem & the source why a paste or a pad needs to be placed. Hence this topic.

Peckers, aside. If you will! ;)
I know. Quotes because I know 100C isn't high enough, but I think it's more about the pressure and the repeated climb to 100C plus all the other little factors that contributes to a slow change in shape. Or...It isn't the CPU at all but, rather, the ILM that becomes deformed; I think that far more likely, especially given the reports that BCFs fix the problems.

It really is an odd thing, but computers are odd indeed.

I don't know if they still do it but, back in the 80's, some computer manuals stated the THEORY of how they believed that the computer would function.
 
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I don't know what you did differently, but the H1 that came with my U12A didn't dry out after a year, at which time I switched to AIO testing.
Didn't do anything out of the norm. Bought a tube of it for testing a few years ago and used it on a few desktops I had built. Within a few months those PCs came back to be with heat/cooling issue. The common point was the NT-H1. It was dried out and not doing it's job. Now, maybe I got a bad tube. That's possible. It far more likely that it dries out being applied and is much less effective..
That is exactly why I detest the use of watts to measure heat production.
I'm ok with it as long as it's clearly defined. The earlier misunderstanding was because the explanation wasn't as clear as needed for proper understanding, which was later corrected. No worries.
 
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Did do anything out of the norm. Bought a tube of it for testing a few years ago and used it on a few desktops I had built. Within a few months those PCs came back to be with heat/cooling issue. The common point was the NT-H1. It was dried out and not doing it's job. Now, maybe I got a bad tube. That's possible. It far more likely that it dries out being applied and is much less effective..
Well, I only got it in late 2022, and I applied it straightaway, so perhaps mine was fresher? Then again, it was my first time in forever applying a TiM, and I used 5 dots as I recall. I suppose we shall never know why there was such a vast difference in results. But, wait, what CPUs were they? Mine is a 12700K that is not very hot.
 
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