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Things that make you go "Hmmmm?"

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So,

An MSI B350 mobo, a ZEN 3 5600x, and nerd walk into a bar. Unfortunately there are only 3 bar stools in the pub and currently sitting there is a 1600x, 2600x, and 3600x.

The BIOS bar tender says to the nerd: : "We ain't got enough room! Take that fancy ZEN 3 chip to the new bar 450/550!

The nerd politely asks: What if we completely wipe out the BIOS on the B350, er throw the existing customers out? Then having downloaded a fresh AGESA COMBO PI V2 1.1.0.0 bios update, then we just make one big stool for our zen 3 chip to sit on? It is after all, the same socketed stool.

Would this work?

If there is not enough space to accommodate 4 generations of zen, what about just the one you be using?

Sorry for the analogy:wtf:
 

hat

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I'm no BIOS architect, so I can't explain why things are the way they are, but I recall reading a while ago that support for Zen 3 (or was it the 3000 series/Zen 2?) could only be enabled with a BIOS flash that would cut out some features in the BIOS, while (maybe or maybe not) dropping support for older chips.

More recently, I recall reading support for Zen 3 (5000 series) would be made possible on existing boards by way of a one-way BIOS update that would offer support for Zen 3, but would eliminate compatibility with older chips. Features may or may not have been cut out in this scenario. I know I'm basically saying the same thing as above, but this differs in that in the above example it was quite some time ago and possibly related to Zen 2/3000 series, and the latter was a statement made after everybody took out their pitchforks when presented with the possibility that Zen 3 may not be supported on existing boards.

One thing is for sure, AMD has tried to give AM4 a good run with lots of forward compatibility, but in reality, compatibility has been a mess, for a number of reasons. From EEPROM/SPI chip/whatever the BIOS/UEFI resides on not being large enough to carry support for everything, to board makers seemingly wanting to make another buck by pushing new board sales, to RAM issues and everything in between.
 
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Easy to explain:
Retail seller have no idea whether the people who bought the B350 mobo would use them with Zen 1 or Zen 3 CPU, everything become a mess if customer thought Zen 1 and Zen 3 CPU are all compatible with B350 while it only support one or the other. RMA process probably cost too much money that the manufacturer can't afford, especially for budget boards with low margin.
Adding APUs also complicate the matter.

Analogy: bar open from 12PM to 12AM, but customers can only sit for 3h maximum to preserve capacity :)

You will have to wait for official statement from motherboard maker whether their B350/450 will support Zen 3, so far it seems MSI 400 boards will support Zen 3.
 
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I'm no BIOS architect, so I can't explain why things are the way they are, but I recall reading a while ago that support for Zen 3 (or was it the 3000 series/Zen 2?) could only be enabled with a BIOS flash that would cut out some features in the BIOS, while (maybe or maybe not) dropping support for older chips.

More recently, I recall reading support for Zen 3 (5000 series) would be made possible on existing boards by way of a one-way BIOS update that would offer support for Zen 3, but would eliminate compatibility with older chips. Features may or may not have been cut out in this scenario. I know I'm basically saying the same thing as above, but this differs in that in the above example it was quite some time ago and possibly related to Zen 2/3000 series, and the latter was a statement made after everybody took out their pitchforks when presented with the possibility that Zen 3 may not be supported on existing boards.

One thing is for sure, AMD has tried to give AM4 a good run with lots of forward compatibility, but in reality, compatibility has been a mess, for a number of reasons. From EEPROM/SPI chip/whatever the BIOS/UEFI resides on not being large enough to carry support for everything, to board makers seemingly wanting to make another buck by pushing new board sales, to RAM issues and everything in between.
What made me consider the possibility of this is an article I read before circulating the the tech sites:





Paging Dr. Frankenstien

 

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It's no secret that Intel has, for the past decade or so, prompted motherboard upgrades with every other CPU release. Usually it's a new socket, but in the case of Coffee Lake, it was merely a new chipset, on yet another new motherboard with stronger power circuitry to support Coffee Lake's higher core count (and subsequently higher power draw). In other words, that's just Intel for you...
 
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It's no secret that Intel has, for the past decade or so, prompted motherboard upgrades with every other CPU release. Usually it's a new socket, but in the case of Coffee Lake, it was merely a new chipset, on yet another new motherboard with stronger power circuitry to support Coffee Lake's higher core count (and subsequently higher power draw). In other words, that's just Intel for you...
Them blue blimey billionaires have been the drunk and abusive father to the low budget groovers of the PC gaming world, now AMD hast taken the belt from the old man as Lisa Su raises hand to AMD's fan boy phannies who have touted the gospel of the price/performance path. That is why I pose this question.. Can a mad scientist circumnavigate the reigns of capitalist mother(water)boards>?
 
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Them blue blimey billionaires have been the drunk and abusive father to the low budget groovers of the PC gaming world, now AMD hast taken the belt from the old man as Lisa Su raises hand to AMD's fan boy phannies who have touted the gospel of the price/performance path. That is why I pose this question.. Can a mad scientist circumnavigate the reigns of capitalist mother(water)boards>?
Money moves the world :D, it's like the higher skills set you have, the higher wage you are demanding for your work right ?
Don't like it, don't buy it, problem solved.
Also Tesla is worth all the admirations, but everyone wants to be Edison.
 

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I mean they aren’t doing an Intel where every CPU needs a new board. I think they stretched AM4 out rather well but there was bound to be some limitations using it across so many boards.
 
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our boat may have a hole in it but at least we get to see the sea. in other words im quite happy how the bios updates have gone even if i have to lose zen and + to beable to run zen 3 :) .
 
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If there is not enough space to accommodate 4 generations of zen, what about just the one you be using?
If you haven't been following the news, most OEMs even had trouble accommodating Zen 2 in their boards due to BIOS size limitations (though I'm still skeptical of the "available space" argument).
With Zen3 it's the exact same story.
The main issue is not whether you can fit all microcode on one large flash and call it a day, the issue is that Zen3 most likely ain't gonna be compatible with 300-series motherboards, or may cause so much confusion amongst existing customers that at the end it'll cost manufacturers more in terms of support and RMAs. So far only 500 series is ready for Zen3, and 400-series is still in a making (firmware updates should go live soon).
MSI only committed to 400-series, and I doubt it will be "all" boards regardless of their press-release. They won't be cutting more older CPU microcode after actively marketing themselves as long-term support Jesuses for the past 2 or so years.
What that means for you, is either go to that B550 bar around the corner, or stay where you are and hook up with sexy 2700X which is now at its cheapest. You ain't getting Zen 3 on b350 no matter how much you want it.
 
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The nerd politely asks: What if we completely wipe out the BIOS on the B350, er throw the existing customers out? Then having downloaded a fresh AGESA COMBO PI V2 1.1.0.0 bios update, then we just make one big stool for our zen 3 chip to sit on? It is after all, the same socketed stool.
That's not how it works. You could clear the EEPROM with a dedicated BIOS programmer tool, but you don't just "download a fresh AGESA".

AGESA is the generic firmware provided by AMD. It's up to the board manufacturers to design and incorporate it into their own BIOS revision. The manufacturer does the necessary work to tailor the general firmware to the unique needs of each of its boards, which (even those that share a single chipset) vary wildly throughout the stack on features, board design and traces/power delivery. If AGESA was what you think it is, we wouldn't need all this angst about waiting on vendors like Asus to release BIOS updates for old boards.

Unless you have all these skills and you want to do all of it for free for one board, it's not happening.

And if you knew about the Coffee Lake on Z170/Z270 life hack, you'd know that it's much more an intentional move by Intel to block newer CPU support. For years, the hack involves taping off certain pads on the CPU. Where are you going to find access to those pins on AM4? You want that tape to get stuck in the socket holes (where there is another socket-side pin)?

In theory, what you're asking is exactly what Beta BIOS entails. Ryzen 3000 support on X370/B350 was already just that, and highly optional on the part of the board partners. It removes all previous gen support, and still often requires a slim UI to save space.
 
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I think we're getting slightly off topic here which is:

How can / Who can tweak and tinker in the weird science to find out if it's possible?

(History Channel voice) Is it possible...?

Just for the sake of argument, since it would appear no one commenting is poised to mar the bios code and try... Just for the sake of imagination and theatre, is it possible to do this? Who would dare?

On a personal note I am grateful for (albiet reckless) journalism of techpowerup https://www.techpowerup.com/254634/msi-betrays-amds-socket-am4-longevity-promise-no-zen2-for-300-series

They sounded the alarm and started the fires which the internets held MSI's feet to about keeping their word about the chipsets support. Now their hyperbolic tactics and credibility of sources is questionable, but overall their aim was to have multinational corporations whos millionaire shareholders keep their promise and not short change consumers... Now I'm getting off topic... I'm only bringing this up because it seemed pretty easy for them to do this when they chose to, when there was consumer outrage, pressure, and potential class action.

Like you said tabascosauz; It's optional from the board partners like asus, msi, gigabyte, etc. If they had to, I mean REALLY ALL CAPS HAD TO OR EVEN WANTED TO support ZEN 3... Do you think they could?
 
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I can think of a couple of friends for whom I built R5 1600 on B350 machines.

I'm not expecting BIOS support for R5 5600 upgrades but it'd be nice if a Beta BIOS appeared and I'd certainly suggest it to them at that point.
 

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I can think of a couple of friends for whom I built R5 1600 on B350 machines.

I'm not expecting BIOS support for R5 5600 upgrades but it'd be nice if a Beta BIOS appeared and I'd certainly suggest it to them at that point.
Exactly “use at your own risk” BIOS not the first time.
 
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You could try cross flashing a B450 Bios on your board from the same manufacturer and range and hope it works.
It wouldn't be the first time a board has had another's flashed to it.
 
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if you dont mind bricking your board go for it, me myself knowing past results in bios ed id sell my b350 and buy something that works. b450s are quite cheap here in the uk.
 
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You could try cross flashing a B450 Bios on your board from the same manufacturer and range and hope it works.
It wouldn't be the first time a board has had another's flashed to it.

This was my thought as well. I can't easily replace my board because of the geographical hindrance in which I am located. So I won't even be able to buy a 5XXX series if I wanted to experiment on my b350...

This isn't even about me or my personal set up. I'm more curious about somebody trying this than anything... If I was a betting man, I would bet that it could be done, though I'm completely uneducated about bios and everything related. My conjecture is based upon what someone said @ tomshardware:

"Hardware unboxed mentioned in his review that PCIe 4 can be activated on 450 series motherboard and ASUS or MSI had actually done this as PCIe4 is a CPU feature and not a chipset feature to access the directly connected components like GPU etc. However AMD might have stepped in and disabled it. This shows how tech companies will step in to stop supporting a older system even though they are compatible. My sound blaster audigy soundcard puchased over 16 years ago works perfectly fine using Daniel K drivers. However creative stopped supporting it over 10 years ago and the newer pcie audigy is just the same old card with a pci to pcie bridge chip built in has full driver support from creative because its a newer card. "

If there is obstruction of compatibility from the motherboard manufacturerer or from amd's engineers, I guess I want to see if someone can circumnavigate the hurdles of miserly multinationals or Lisa Su's new found love of price gouging
 

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I mean they aren’t doing an Intel where every CPU needs a new board. I think they stretched AM4 out rather well but there was bound to be some limitations using it across so many boards.
8th and 9th Gen = Z370/390
10th and 11th gen = Z490 /Z5XX

every CPU needs an new board?
 
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No, the PCIe 4.0 issue is a completely different can of worms. I don't think anyone in their right mind would be pushing out 4.0 to 400 series chipsets without the potential ramifications in mind. I wouldn't be surprised if an expensive Taichi or Hero would've run 4.0 just fine, but not every board out there is an 6- or 8-layer board ATX board aimed at overclockers of all types. The sub-$100 4-layer, heatsinkless, bargain basement boards would certainly have something to say about signal integrity...

Then, where do you draw the line on boards that can and can't do 4.0? How do you do the exhaustive time-consuming tests, and how do you expect the average Joe to understand that his board doesn't meet the requirements but the next SKU $20 up does?

The BIOS issue has nothing to do with PCIe 4.0. The vendors certainly have the ability to do it; they will not, because it's not even in AMD's mandate. The 300s had their time. Only chance is if someone gets firmware tools similar to Z270 that can do the job, but the chances are slim. The quality of the vast majority of 300 series boards was middling at best, in light of our expectations for power delivery today.

Intel shafted Kaby Lake buyers in less than a year. AMD delivered as promised for the 300s, and now their time has past. Most people recognize this and are content with it, thus probably not a whole lot of interest in Ryzen 5000 on B350.
 

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You could try cross flashing a B450 Bios on your board from the same manufacturer and range and hope it works.
It wouldn't be the first time a board has had another's flashed to it.
Would you even get past the hash check?
8th and 9th Gen = Z370/390
10th and 11th gen = Z490 /Z5XX

every CPU needs an new board?
Okay every other one. AM4 will have supported every Zen up to now.
 
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No, the PCIe 4.0 issue is a completely different can of worms. I don't think anyone in their right mind would be pushing out 4.0 to 400 series chipsets without the potential ramifications in mind. I wouldn't be surprised if an expensive Taichi or Hero would've run 4.0 just fine, but not every board out there is an 6- or 8-layer board ATX board aimed at overclockers of all types. The sub-$100 4-layer, heatsinkless, bargain basement boards would certainly have something to say about signal integrity...

Then, where do you draw the line on boards that can and can't do 4.0? How do you do the exhaustive time-consuming tests, and how do you expect the average Joe to understand that his board doesn't meet the requirements but the next SKU $20 up does?

The BIOS issue has nothing to do with PCIe 4.0. The vendors certainly have the ability to do it; they will not, because it's not even in AMD's mandate. The 300s had their time. Only chance is if someone gets firmware tools similar to Z270 that can do the job, but the chances are slim. The quality of the vast majority of 300 series boards was middling at best, in light of our expectations for power delivery today.

Intel shafted Kaby Lake buyers in less than a year. AMD delivered as promised for the 300s, and now their time has past. Most people recognize this and are content with it, thus probably not a whole lot of interest in Ryzen 5000 on B350.
I wasn't making those arguments nor am I tryin' to argue. That's what the guy from tomshardware wrote and I only quoted him because it seemed that he was making the point that it's possible, with the only roadblock being corporate.

I aggree AMD hath fufilled their word, again, probably because of the outrage ensued by TPU's journalism, but I think you're saying it is indeed possible but
"Most people recognize this and are content with it, thus probably not a whole lot of interest in Ryzen 5000 on B350."

Entertain that there are a few million who might feel otherwise. Especially in covid economy vs 3.5 years ago when b350 were available.

I think the consensus conjecture from everyone here is that it could be possible maybe. Which is all I was asking.

A B350 MOBO, a zen 3 chip and a bored modder / nerd walk inside a bar...




Ol' Beastie & Austere Box | my keyboard builds
 
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I wasn't making those arguments nor am I tryin' to argue. That's what the guy from tomshardware wrote and I only quoted him because it seemed that he was making the point that it's possible, with the only roadblock being corporate.

I aggree AMD hath fufilled their word, again, probably because of the outrage ensued by TPU's journalism, but I think you're saying it is indeed possible but
"Most people recognize this and are content with it, thus probably not a whole lot of interest in Ryzen 5000 on B350."

Entertain that there are a few million who might feel otherwise. Especially in covid economy vs 3.5 years ago when b350 were available.

I think the consensus conjecture from everyone here is that it could be possible maybe. Which is all I was asking.

A B350 MOBO, a zen 3 chip and a bored modder / nerd walk inside a bar...
Ol' Beastie & Austere Box | my keyboard builds
Like I said, it's certainly possible with the right tools. You'll find out sooner rather than later if someone makes something. My point was more towards the fact that it depends on whether anyone can be arsed to spend the time to mod a BIOS for a single board. That's why Coffee Lake support turned out to be feasible for Z270, because many indignant owners felt sufficiently stiffed by Intel (and the product differences significant enough) to work on a solution. B350 already has Ryzen 3000. Ryzen 5000 offers a product that isn't fundamentally different from Matisse in the way Matisse was to Pinnacle.

I don't disagree that finances are hard for millions (dare I say, billions) of people; I just can't resist pointing out that the cash-strapped yet financially prudent would just buy a Ryzen 3000 product instead. AMD doesn't EOL its last gen parts like Intel does; Matisse will just become the budget option as Pinnacle has remained for the past year. Not to mention 5000's price hike.
 
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Just for the sake of argument, since it would appear no one commenting is poised to mar the bios code and try... Just for the sake of imagination and theatre, is it possible to do this? Who would dare?
Anything is possible, but it doesn't mean it's worthwhile.
While Intel BIOS is well documented and has tons of dev tools leaked over the years, AMD is still a blackbox. It'll take hundreds more human-hours(and possibly some engineering leaks) to get where we are with intel today. Just splicing-in or replacing AGESA blocks won't do anything(trust me, I've tried).
Any current AMD-related BIOS mods are mostly ticking checkboxes in AMIBCP and re-enabling features that are already there or meant for debugging (e.g. hidden by OEM). Nothing more advanced than that. Honestly, buying a decent B450 board with Zen3 support is going to be a better investment of time and money. AM4 has been around long enough that we are lucky to have any new CPUs for this platform at this point. AMD proved me wrong again, and managed to release both Zen2 and Zen3 before sAM4 life expectancy expired.
I do have a few boards which I can sacrifice in the name of science, but my last attempt at bringing back Bristol Ridge support on a newer A320 board while keeping the new firmware ended up in many-many failures until I gave up and simply flashed the original firmware from an old revision of this board. And in your case, it's not just tinkering with native firmware, it's transplanting pieces from completely different firmware.
 
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Thank you guys for your time and words, I do agree with the three posters quoted and their comments.

Thank you Caring1 for the link I will check it out now.

It's always good to learn.
 
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