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Throttlestop no longer working

XANTANA

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Hi, guys.

I recently made the switch from Mac to PC for gaming purposes, so I'm still learning. After getting my laptop about 6 weeks ago, I noticed my CPU temps were running between 84-89 degrees when playing Madden. I did some research on lowering the CPU temps and came across undervolting. I did a little research and found an undervolting guide on YouTube. I found what I thought was stability at -130mV for my CPU Core, CPU Cache, and Intel GPU. A little later my CPU crashed while gaming. I adjusted to -120mV, ran stable for a few hours and then crashed while on YouTube. Adjusted a third time to -110mV and finally found what I thought was my sweet spot. My idle temps were between 38-45, and when gaming the max was between 74-78. Everything ran wonderful for weeks until earlier today when I experience the first crash since stepping down to -110. I restarted my system (no windows updates installed during restart) and have been unable to get Throttlestop to apply the undervolting settings since. When TS Benching I'm again seeing temps back where they originally were, and as high as 94. I deleted throttlestop, redownloaded to reset any settings that were saved, and in dozens of tries haven't been able to get the settings to apply. I'll post my system specs, screenshots of my settings windows, as well as the log file compiled while TS Bench is running. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I really want to learn how to maximize my CPU's performance, any knowledge or advice would we valued highly.

System:
Win10 1909
i7-10750H 2.6Ghz (up to 5Ghz / 12M Cache/ 6 Core)
2x 8GB RAM
RTX 2060 GPU
 

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94 degrees is still nowhere near throttling. You don't need ThrottleStop.
 

XANTANA

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94 degrees is still nowhere near throttling. You don't need ThrottleStop.
Along with higher temps comes higher fan speeds which produce a lot more noise. At these temps the noise the fans produce is loud and annoying. Also, if I have the ability to lower the temps and increase performance.. why would I not strive for that? If something was once working and it no longer is, I would like to understand and learn why so that I’m also more knowledgeable on the operation of my machine.
 
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Along with higher temps comes higher fan speeds which produce a lot more noise. At these temps the noise the fans produce is loud and annoying. Also, if I have the ability to lower the temps and increase performance.. why would I not strive for that? If something was once working and it no longer is, I would like to understand and learn why so that I’m also more knowledgeable on the operation of my machine.
Your machine loses performance when the CPU thermally throttles.
ThrottleStop is a tool to undervolt the CPU to prevent throttling and hence restore performance.
But your CPU currently isn't throttling, so ThrottleStop is effectively doing nothing.

That's not entirely true, of course, because indeed there are benefits to components running cooler in general. But you seem to be expecting this tool to magically give you extra performance, which it won't do in your case. And as you've already seen, there are downsides to it (blue screening on voltages that are too low). I'm just trying to manage your expectations.

Anyway, I will step aside and let @unclewebb chip in regarding the inability of TS to affect anything anymore. It does sound though like a sneaky BIOS update got through - these are notorious for removing the ability to control CPU voltage.
 

XANTANA

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Your machine loses performance when the CPU thermally throttles.
ThrottleStop is a tool to undervolt the CPU to prevent throttling and hence restore performance.
But your CPU currently isn't throttling, so ThrottleStop is effectively doing nothing.

That's not entirely true, of course, because indeed there are benefits to components running cooler in general. But you seem to be expecting this tool to magically give you extra performance, which it won't do in your case. And as you've already seen, there are downsides to it (blue screening on voltages that are too low). I'm just trying to manage your expectations.

Anyway, I will step aside and let @unclewebb chip in regarding the inability of TS to affect anything anymore. It does sound though like a sneaky BIOS update got through - these are notorious for removing the ability to control CPU voltage.
Thanks for the response and I understand your point. If I may revise my previous statement, I'd say I'd like to increase my user experience, not increase my CPU's performance. I'm not looking for performance boost, but specifically would like to reduce to amount of fan noise I experience with OTB settings due to the higher temps. When throttlestop was working previously, I could barely hear the fans, which is really nice.

I checked and my BIOS version is 3.2. I also checked the system update history and noticed that there was actually an update performed on 9/18, which I was unaware of. Here's a link to the update. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4023057/update-reliability-for-windows-10-versions-1507-to-1909 . After my failed attempts last night I also knowingly allowed another update to go through https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4576947/kb4576947-cumulative-update-for-net-framework

If indeed the BIOS version was updated and this is the issue.. would I be able to reverse that by doing a system restore or factory reset and completely disabling windows updates ?
 

unclewebb

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have been unable to get Throttlestop to apply the undervolting settings since
That is not what your screenshot shows.

1600792689492.png


Your undervolt is being applied correctly. When the undervolt is locked by the BIOS, ThrottleStop will show FIVR Control Locked.
The Offset column will show +0.0000 from top to bottom.
If your CPU temperatures have increased noticeably, and this just started to happen, it has nothing to do with your voltage settings. Either the heatsink is not as snug as it used to be or the thermal paste between the CPU and heatsink has degraded. Intel CPUs run hot. Some thermal paste that works great on desktop CPUs with their integrated heat spreaders do not work so great when used on a laptop CPU that does not use a heat spreader.

94 degrees is still nowhere near throttling.
Actually, that is not true. The Intel default thermal throttling temperature is 100°C. This laptop manufacturer has reduced the thermal throttling temperature to 92°C so this laptop is losing performance when it reaches this temperature.

1600793345411.png


You don't need ThrottleStop.
He definitely needs ThrottleStop. It is the only program available that allows a user to correct this stupidity. In the Options window the PROCHOT Offset value is set to 8. This is what tells the CPU to start thermal throttling prematurely at 92°C. (100°C - 8) If he decides to set PROCHOT Offset to 0, then the CPU will start thermal throttling at 100°C like Intel intended.

He also needs to use ThrottleStop to adjust his CPU voltages. Without that, his throttling problem would be worse.

When testing your undervolt, make sure that you can pass some light load TS Bench tests (1 or 2 Threads) without any errors. For your CPU, the core and cache offset voltages do not need to be set equally. Many CPUs perform better and more reliably when the core is set to a bigger number compared to the cache. It is always the cache voltage that is the limiting factor so back that off to -100 mV and then do some Cinebench R20 testing and see if you get increased performance by setting the core voltage higher. Maybe -100 mV cache and -150 mV core will be a better setting compared to -110 mV for each.

A Speed Shift EPP setting of 128 can limit maximum performance. I prefer using 80. You might not need to check the Speed Shift EPP value in ThrottleStop. Windows 10 can manage this setting appropriately on many newer computers. Clear that box in ThrottleStop, open the FIVR window and have a look in the monitoring table to see what Speed Shift value the CPU is using. Now adjust the Windows performance slider in the system tray / notification area from left to right and back again. Watch how this changes the Speed Shift EPP value in the monitoring table. If Windows can control this appropriately, let it. Best not to have ThrottleStop fighting with Windows. There is only one CPU register. Having two different programs writing different values to the same CPU register does not make sense.

Almost forgot. When you undervolt the Intel GPU you usually have to undervolt the iGPU Unslice equally. These two voltages are linked. The question is, do you really need to do this? You are not using the Intel GPU when gaming so most people do not bother. Set this back to 0 until you get the CPU voltages sorted out.
 

XANTANA

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That is not what your screenshot shows.

View attachment 169511

Your undervolt is being applied correctly. When the undervolt is locked by the BIOS, ThrottleStop will show FIVR Control Locked.
The Offset column will show +0.0000 from top to bottom.
If your CPU temperatures have increased noticeably, and this just started to happen, it has nothing to do with your voltage settings. Either the heatsink is not as snug as it used to be or the thermal paste between the CPU and heatsink has degraded. Intel CPUs run hot. Some thermal paste that works great on desktop CPUs with their integrated heat spreaders do not work so great when used on a laptop CPU that does not use a heat spreader.


Actually, that is not true. The Intel default thermal throttling temperature is 100°C. This laptop manufacturer has reduced the thermal throttling temperature to 92°C so this laptop is losing performance when it reaches this temperature.

View attachment 169513


He definitely needs ThrottleStop. It is the only program available that allows a user to correct this stupidity. In the Options window the PROCHOT Offset value is set to 8. This is what tells the CPU to start thermal throttling prematurely at 92°C. (100°C - 8) If he decides to set PROCHOT Offset to 0, then the CPU will start thermal throttling at 100°C like Intel intended.

He also needs to use ThrottleStop to adjust his CPU voltages. Without that, his throttling problem would be worse.

When testing your undervolt, make sure that you can pass some light load TS Bench tests (1 or 2 Threads) without any errors. For your CPU, the core and cache offset voltages do not need to be set equally. Many CPUs perform better and more reliably when the core is set to a bigger number compared to the cache. It is always the cache voltage that is the limiting factor so back that off to -100 mV and then do some Cinebench R20 testing and see if you get increased performance by setting the core voltage higher. Maybe -100 mV cache and -150 mV core will be a better setting compared to -110 mV for each.

A Speed Shift EPP setting of 128 can limit maximum performance. I prefer using 80. You might not need to check the Speed Shift EPP value in ThrottleStop. Windows 10 can manage this setting appropriately on many newer computers. Clear that box in ThrottleStop, open the FIVR window and have a look in the monitoring table to see what Speed Shift value the CPU is using. Now adjust the Windows performance slider in the system tray / notification area from left to right and back again. Watch how this changes the Speed Shift EPP value in the monitoring table. If Windows can control this appropriately, let it. Best not to have ThrottleStop fighting with Windows. There is only one CPU register. Having two different programs writing different values to the same CPU register does not make sense.

Almost forgot. When you undervolt the Intel GPU you usually have to undervolt the iGPU Unslice equally. These two voltages are linked. The question is, do you really need to do this? You are not using the Intel GPU when gaming so most people do not bother. Set this back to 0 until you get the CPU voltages sorted out.
@unclewebb Thank you so much for this information... very helpful and informative. Apologies for the delay in response, been really busy with life. I ran the test on 1 and 2 threads and they ran fine without any errors. I went ahead and ordered some Kryonaut and new thermal pads from Amazon that should be here sometime tomorrow. I'll see how that works and report back.

@unclewebb Also, unc.. what exactly does the IccMax setting control? Any recommendations for this setting?
 
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I don't think Kryonaut is a good TIM for Laptop for 2 reasons, first is Kryonaut will degrade quickly at temperature above 80C, second is Kryonaut has low viscosity (easier to spread) that it would just drip out of the CPU die if you store your Laptop in a vertical position when the Laptop is still warm after gaming.
I repasted my laptop with Kryonaut only to find that CPU temp got bad after 1 month. Later I ordered some Thermalright TF-X and this paste's viscosity is so high it's impossible to spread (so I use the Rice method), the CPU and GPU temp however have improved a lot with this TIM.
So for Laptop I would recommend thicker TIMs such as Noctua NT-H2 or Thermalright TF-X, their high viscosity is perfect for low mounting pressure of the Laptop heatsink.
 

XANTANA

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So I finally got the thermal paste reapplied today. I didn't replace the thermal pads.. there was so much pink goo from the old ones, it would have taken HOURS to clean them all and reapply. I'm wondering if this is something I invest the time into doing? After reapplying the thermal paste I didn't notice any change in temps. I actually saw 2 of the threads being hotter than before. I then came back to my cpu an hour or so later and ran the test in ThrottleStop and it seemed to be working. Max temps were 72 I think. Then I tried it again later and back to 92-94 max. I'm so confused at this point. I wonder if it could be another app conflicting? I honestly have no clue. Should I post a pic of the old thermal pads?

I don't think Kryonaut is a good TIM for Laptop for 2 reasons, first is Kryonaut will degrade quickly at temperature above 80C, second is Kryonaut has low viscosity (easier to spread) that it would just drip out of the CPU die if you store your Laptop in a vertical position when the Laptop is still warm after gaming.
I repasted my laptop with Kryonaut only to find that CPU temp got bad after 1 month. Later I ordered some Thermalright TF-X and this paste's viscosity is so high it's impossible to spread (so I use the Rice method), the CPU and GPU temp however have improved a lot with this TIM.
So for Laptop I would recommend thicker TIMs such as Noctua NT-H2 or Thermalright TF-X, their high viscosity is perfect for low mounting pressure of the Laptop heatsink.
Thanks for this info. I just may have to give one of those TIMs a try.. Kryonaut didn't help me at all. I've watched multiple people on YouTube who had lots of success with Kryonaut though.
 
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System Name The de-ploughminator
Processor I7 8700K @ 5.1Ghz
Motherboard Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 5
Cooling Custom Watercooling
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Power Supply Corsair RM1000
So I finally got the thermal paste reapplied today. I didn't replace the thermal pads.. there was so much pink goo from the old ones, it would have taken HOURS to clean them all and reapply. I'm wondering if this is something I invest the time into doing? After reapplying the thermal paste I didn't notice any change in temps. I actually saw 2 of the threads being hotter than before. I then came back to my cpu an hour or so later and ran the test in ThrottleStop and it seemed to be working. Max temps were 72 I think. Then I tried it again later and back to 92-94 max. I'm so confused at this point. I wonder if it could be another app conflicting? I honestly have no clue. Should I post a pic of the old thermal pads?
Thanks for this info. I just may have to give one of those TIMs a try.. Kryonaut didn't help me at all. I've watched multiple people on YouTube who had lots of success with Kryonaut though.
Yeah I tried putting Kryonaut on Laptop CPU and GPU at first and the result were kinda bad, basically high temperature delta between CPU cores (>10C) are the first signs that the thermal paste is not up to snuff. Possible causes are it was an old Kryonaut tube I opened more than 2 years ago or I stored the Laptop vertically in the backpack right after playing some games.

I figure because the gap between the CPU die and the heatsink in laptop are wider than Desktop CPU (where the mounting pressure is much higher), that makes watery thermal paste more likely to drip out when you store the laptop vertically. Now the Thermalright TF-X paste has extremely high viscosity (looks very dry) that make it not possible to spread, but that makes it perfect for laptops. Right now max GPU temp is 74 and max CPU temp is 91 on my Acer Triton at 27C ambient (10875H + 2070 Super Max-Q) after hours of gaming.
 

XANTANA

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Yeah I tried putting Kryonaut on Laptop CPU and GPU at first and the result were kinda bad, basically high temperature delta between CPU cores (>10C) are the first signs that the thermal paste is not up to snuff. Possible causes are it was an old Kryonaut tube I opened more than 2 years ago or I stored the Laptop vertically in the backpack right after playing some games.

I figure because the gap between the CPU die and the heatsink in laptop are wider than Desktop CPU (where the mounting pressure is much higher), that makes watery thermal paste more likely to drip out when you store the laptop vertically. Now the Thermalright TF-X paste has extremely high viscosity (looks very dry) that make it not possible to spread, but that makes it perfect for laptops. Right now max GPU temp is 74 and max CPU temp is 91 on my Acer Triton at 27C ambient (10875H + 2070 Super Max-Q) after hours of gaming.
I’m assuming you’re undervolting as well? Isn’t 91 still high? My GPU temps never concern me.. it’s just the CPU temps. I have my laptop stored horizontally with the rear slightly propped up to allow bottom ventilation. Depending on what unclewebb says at this point I’ll def consider getting some of the thermal paste you recommended.

whats weird is the fact that it seemed to be “okay” again, then not. I remember when I first found out about undervolting.. there were a few times when I would restart my system and I’d have to basically 0 everything out in throttlestop and reset my settings to get them to apply. Also yesterday just messing with the undervolt slider.. I could slide it all the way to -250 and nothing would happen.. no crash, no drop in temps during stress test. At this point I’m thinking it could be something different? Interested in what you think @unclewebb
 
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I’m assuming you’re undervolting as well? Isn’t 91 still high? My GPU temps never concern me.. it’s just the CPU temps. I have my laptop stored horizontally with the rear slightly propped up to allow bottom ventilation. Depending on what unclewebb says at this point I’ll def consider getting some of the thermal paste you recommended.

whats weird is the fact that it seemed to be “okay” again, then not. I remember when I first found out about undervolting.. there were a few times when I would restart my system and I’d have to basically 0 everything out in throttlestop and reset my settings to get them to apply. Also yesterday just messing with the undervolt slider.. I could slide it all the way to -250 and nothing would happen.. no crash, no drop in temps during stress test. At this point I’m thinking it could be something different? Interested in what you think @unclewebb
Yeah I have undervolt of -170mV on the CPU Core and -85mv on CPU Cache (with Intel 10th gen mobile you can do that)
Basically your undervolt on CPU Core is 2:1 to CPU cache, in your case if your laptop is stable with -110mV on both Core and Cache, you can run stable with -220mV on the Core but not more.

Before repasting I had to lower the Turbo Ratio Limits by -300mhz and power limit to 40W just so that the CPU does not thermal throttle. You don't want your CPU to thermal throttle since it would make the game stutter (heavy CPU downclock). Right now I'm running fans on auto mode, stock Turbo Ratio Limits and stock PL; my laptop CPU is configured to thermal throttle at 95C so I'm still good (91C is just the peak, avg is around 80C).

Unless you reduce the Turbo Ratio Limits or reduce the Power Limits (or increase fan speed), undervolting alone is not gonna help you much.
 

XANTANA

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Yeah I have undervolt of -170mV on the CPU Core and -85mv on CPU Cache (with Intel 10th gen mobile you can do that)
Basically your undervolt on CPU Core is 2:1 to CPU cache, in your case if your laptop is stable with -110mV on both Core and Cache, you can run stable with -220mV on the Core but not more.

Before repasting I had to lower the Turbo Ratio Limits by -300mhz and power limit to 40W just so that the CPU does not thermal throttle. You don't want your CPU to thermal throttle since it would make the game stutter (heavy CPU downclock). Right now I'm running fans on auto mode, stock Turbo Ratio Limits and stock PL; my laptop CPU is configured to thermal throttle at 95C so I'm still good (91C is just the peak, avg is around 80C).

Unless you reduce the Turbo Ratio Limits or reduce the Power Limits (or increase fan speed), undervolting alone is not gonna help you much.
Are you on Discord? If so add me XANTANA#6465
 

XANTANA

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Finally got this figured out. Reading through the Throttlestop manual gave me a lot of insight into what each setting effected. Highly recommended for anyone who may come across this post. (It's included in the download file.) Currently idling (for my setup) at CPU 38-41; GPU 38. High temps for CPU with the below settings are 79-80.

Factory reset BIOS as well as Windows (Probably didn't need to do this, but I wasn't sure if something I changed previously in BIOS was conflicting)

In throttlestop..
Speedshift EPP - 32
BD Prochot - Deselected

Turbo Ratio Limits
1 - 41
2 - 41
3 - 40
4 - 40
5 - 40
6 - 40

CPU Core : -220 (IccMax : +255)
CPU Cache : -110 (IccMax : +255)

Thank you so much @unclewebb & @nguyen ! As you said @nguyen.. I needed to reduce the turbo limits. I'm sure I could push these lower, but I'm happy with where I'm at now. I haven't ran a CPU intense game yet, so I'll have to monitor for stability over the next few days. In retrospect, reapplying the thermal paste was possibly unnecessary, but I'm glad I did it. I'm now comfortable and confident working on the internal hardware.. great lesson learned. Again, thank you both for your time and efforts.
 
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