• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Toshiba Talks About 5-Bit-per-Cell (PLC) Flash Memory

Raevenlord

News Editor
Staff member
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
3,715 (1.76/day)
Location
Portugal
System Name The Ryzening
Processor AMD Ryzen 9 5900X
Motherboard MSI X570 MAG TOMAHAWK
Cooling Lian Li Galahad 360mm AIO
Memory 32 GB G.Skill Trident Z F4-3733 (4x 8 GB)
Video Card(s) Gigabyte RTX 3070 Ti
Storage Boot: Transcend MTE220S 2TB, Kintson A2000 1TB, Seagate Firewolf Pro 14 TB
Display(s) Acer Nitro VG270UP (1440p 144 Hz IPS)
Case Lian Li O11DX Dynamic White
Audio Device(s) iFi Audio Zen DAC
Power Supply Seasonic Focus+ 750 W
Mouse Cooler Master Masterkeys Lite L
Keyboard Cooler Master Masterkeys Lite L
Software Windows 10 x64
Toshiba at the Flash Memory Summit announced they've managed to develop a 5-Bit-per-Cell memory solution Based on its BiCS 4 flash memory technologies, the feat was achieved using a modified module of Quad-Level Cell (QLC) memory. This shows the technology is not only feasible, but has room for improvement, since an adapted QLC technology will always be inferior to a natively-developed, Penta-Level Cell (PLC) solution.

To achieve this ability to store one extra bit of information per cell (compared to QLC), a new level of voltage refinement is required: the cell has to be able to change its state according to one of 32 voltage states, which, in turn, have to be read out correctly by the flash memory controller. This reduces the cell's performance and endurance (as does any increase in the number of bits per cell), and will require a number of solutions to mitigate and compensate for this reduced performance. However, density has become an increasing concern from manufacturers, hence the continued development of deeper, more variable voltage states that allow for even more information to be stored in the same silicon area. Higher density means cheaper solutions, but density increased in such a way has known trade-offs that have been much talked about ever since the transition from Single-Level Cell (SLC) up to the (nowadays ubiquitous) QLC.



View at TechPowerUp Main Site
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2019
Messages
483 (0.43/day)
Location
The New England region of the United States
System Name Daily Driver(gaming, browsing)
Processor Ryzen 7 3800X
Motherboard Gigabyte X570 Aurus Pro Wifi
Cooling Noctua NH-D15 chromax.black
Memory 32GB(2x16GB) Patriot Viper DDR4-3200C16
Video Card(s) EVGA RTX 3060 Ti
Storage Samsung 970 EVO Plus 1TB (Boot/OS)|Samsung 980 1TB (Games)|2 x Samsung 860 EVO 1TB & 500GB (Misc)
Display(s) Gigabyte G27F
Case Corsair Graphite 600T w/mesh side
Audio Device(s) Logitech Z625 2.1 | cheapo gaming headset when mic is needed
Power Supply Corsair HX850i
Mouse Redragon M808-KS Storm Pro (Great Value)
Keyboard Redragon K512 Shiva replaced a Corsair K70 Lux - Blue on Black
VR HMD Nope
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
Benchmark Scores Nope
This will be like 10Mb/s without cache.
Don't forget, good for only a dozen P/E cycles too. Semi-disposable thumb drives anyone???
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
3,303 (1.71/day)
Processor R5 5600X
Motherboard ASUS ROG STRIX B550-I GAMING
Cooling Alpenföhn Black Ridge
Memory 2*16GB DDR4-2666 VLP @3800
Video Card(s) EVGA Geforce RTX 3080 XC3
Storage 1TB Samsung 970 Pro, 2TB Intel 660p
Display(s) ASUS PG279Q, Eizo EV2736W
Case Dan Cases A4-SFX
Power Supply Corsair SF600
Mouse Corsair Ironclaw Wireless RGB
Keyboard Corsair K60
VR HMD HTC Vive
Joined
Oct 18, 2013
Messages
3,333 (1.06/day)
Location
Right on Shitsown Rd, 8.378 miles to your house
System Name The Little One
Processor i5-8279u
Motherboard AZW Speed S
Cooling Fan w/heat pipes + side & rear vents
Memory 32GB Crucial DDR4-3200 (2x 16GB)
Video Card(s) Iris Plus 655
Storage WD Black SN750 2TB m.2 + WD 2TB external nvme
Display(s) 2x Samsung 43" LCD's @1440p
Case Practically identical to a mac mini, just purrtier in slate blue, & with 3x usb ports on the front !
Audio Device(s) Yamaha ATS-1060 Bluetooth Soundbar & Subwoofer
Power Supply 65w brick
Mouse Logitech MX Master 2
Keyboard Logitech G613 mechanical wireless
Software Windows 10 pro 64 bit, with all the unnecessary background shitzu turned OFF !
Benchmark Scores PDQ - all things considered !
Joined
Jun 16, 2016
Messages
409 (0.19/day)
System Name Baxter
Processor Intel i7-5775C @ 4.2 GHz 1.35 V
Motherboard ASRock Z97-E ITX/AC
Cooling Scythe Big Shuriken 3 with Noctua NF-A12 fan
Memory 16 GB 2400 MHz CL11 HyperX Savage DDR3
Video Card(s) EVGA RTX 2070 Super Black @ 1950 MHz
Storage 1 TB Sabrent Rocket 2242 NVMe SSD (boot), 500 GB Samsung 850 EVO, and 4TB Toshiba X300 7200 RPM HDD
Display(s) Vizio P65-F1 4KTV (4k60 with HDR or 1080p120)
Case Raijintek Ophion
Audio Device(s) HDMI PCM 5.1, Vizio 5.1 surround sound
Power Supply Corsair SF600 Platinum 600 W SFX PSU
Mouse Logitech MX Master 2S
Keyboard Logitech G613 and Microsoft Media Keyboard
Honestly QLC is almost a bridge too far since it degrades to HDD performance levels when you saturate the cache. We're now going to see sub-HDD performance past the cache. I hope that MLC drives continue to be made, because that's just not going to cut it. I suppose if this allows 4 TB SSDs to reach $200 I would be interested for a game drive since writes aren't very important past the install process. Still, is anyone else wary of how reliable these drives are going to be? If the voltage changes by 4% you're in a different value now. I can't imagine how that's going to fly when an SSD is losing charge constantly when unpowered.
 
D

Deleted member 158293

Guest
My guess would be SLC will be moved to almost exclusively for enterprise solutions.

TLC (with cache) will go to the premium consumer category, QLC $ cacheless TLC to mainstream, PLC budget.

It will allow manufacturers to increase their profits again.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
16,461 (5.88/day)
Location
The Washing Machine
Processor i7 8700k 4.6Ghz @ 1.24V
Motherboard AsRock Fatal1ty K6 Z370
Cooling beQuiet! Dark Rock Pro 3
Memory 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200/C16
Video Card(s) MSI GTX 1080 Gaming X @ 2100/5500
Storage Samsung 850 EVO 1TB + Samsung 830 256GB + Crucial BX100 250GB + Toshiba 1TB HDD
Display(s) Gigabyte G34QWC (3440x1440)
Case Fractal Design Define C TG
Audio Device(s) Situational :)
Power Supply EVGA G2 750W
Mouse XTRFY M42
Keyboard Lenovo Thinkpad Trackpoint II
Software W10 x64
Honestly QLC is almost a bridge too far since it degrades to HDD performance levels when you saturate the cache. We're now going to see sub-HDD performance past the cache. I hope that MLC drives continue to be made, because that's just not going to cut it. I suppose if this allows 4 TB SSDs to reach $200 I would be interested for a game drive since writes aren't very important past the install process. Still, is anyone else wary of how reliable these drives are going to be? If the voltage changes by 4% you're in a different value now. I can't imagine how that's going to fly when an SSD is losing charge constantly when unpowered.

I'm already staying away from QLC drives to be fair with you... Its just not worth it, at least with the current price/GB gap.

My guess would be SLC will be moved to almost exclusively for enterprise solutions.

TLC (with cache) will go to the premium consumer category, QLC $ cacheless TLC to mainstream, PLC budget.

It will allow manufacturers to increase their profits again.

And yet, if they cannot continually bring price/GB down on the whole stack over time, they won't be selling as much. The trend will continue, and QLC/PLC do provide breathing room on the market; the more volume they sell of that, the less scarce the better NAND will be. So in a way its good for everyone. We can't deny the demand is going to continue to go up.
 
D

Deleted member 158293

Guest
And yet, if they cannot continually bring price/GB down on the whole stack over time, they won't be selling as much. The trend will continue, and QLC/PLC do provide breathing room on the market; the more volume they sell of that, the less scarce the better NAND will be. So in a way its good for everyone. We can't deny the demand is going to continue to go up.

Agree more options is better, just keep in mind this is price going down by offering lesser value. This is not older tech prices decreasing when replaced by better tech. We have the best tech so far with SLC, and creating worst tech options instead of better. The $/GB metric also aggregates different types of nand. Not aggregating this information would probably be more useful, as in:

SLC: $/GB
TLC w./ cache: $/GB
TLC cacheless: $/GB
QLC (slower cacheless version incoming later?): $/GB
PLC (slower cacheless version incoming later?): $/GB
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
575 (0.44/day)
This is too much.
QLC is already pushing it... but PLC ? Come'on ...

And when you do the math, it's only 25% more bits for same number of cells ( QLC is 33% more than TLC, and TLC 50% more than M(2)LC )
Diminishing returns ... for massive loss in endurance.
Totally not worth it.
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
17,621 (3.27/day)
System Name Pioneer
Processor Ryzen R9 5950X
Motherboard GIGABYTE X570 Aorus Elite
Cooling Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory Crucial Ballistix 64GB (4 x 16GB) @ DDR4-3600 (Micron E-Die, dual rank sticks)
Video Card(s) EVGA GeForce RTX 3090 Ti FTW3
Storage 2x Crucial P5 Plus 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs
Display(s) 55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display
Case Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s) TOSLINK->Schiit Modi MB->Asgard 2 DAC Amp->AKG Pro K712 Headphones or HDMI->B9 OLED
Power Supply EVGA SuperNova T2 Titanium 850W
Mouse Razer Deathadder v2
Keyboard WASD CODE Mechanical KB w/ Cherry MX Green switches
Software Windows 11 Enterprise (yes, it's legit)
Do you want HDDs to appear reliable relative to flash Toshiba? Keep this up, and they might gain a marketing point.
 
Joined
Dec 10, 2014
Messages
1,280 (0.47/day)
Location
Nowy Warsaw
System Name SYBARIS
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard MSI Arsenal Gaming B450 Tomahawk
Cooling Cryorig H7 Quad Lumi
Memory Team T-Force Delta RGB 2x8GB 3200CL16
Video Card(s) Colorful GeForce RTX 2060 6G V2
Storage Crucial MX500 500GB | WD Black WD1003FZEX 1TB
Display(s) AOC 24G2 24" 144hz IPS | LG 22MP68VQ-P 22" 75hz IPS
Case In Win Mana 136
Audio Device(s) HyperX Cloud X | iVOOMi iVO-169SUFBT 2.1
Power Supply Cooler Master G550M
Mouse Razer Viper Mini | Cooler Master MM711 | Logitech G102 | Logitech G402
Keyboard Fantech MK871 RGB TKL Outemu Blue mechanical keyboard
Software Windows 10 Education 21H1 x64
Jesus FerdiNAND Christ!!! All the advancement of performance in almost every sector every year while SSD tech goes more backward.
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
2,715 (0.73/day)
System Name MSI GP76
Processor intel i7 11800h
Cooling 2 laptop fans
Memory 32gb of 3000mhz DDR4
Video Card(s) Nvidia 3070
Storage x2 PNY 8tb cs2130 m.2 SSD--16tb of space
Display(s) 17.3" IPS 1920x1080 240Hz
Power Supply 280w laptop power supply
Mouse Logitech m705
Keyboard laptop keyboard
Software lots of movies and Windows 10 with win 7 shell
Benchmark Scores Good enough for me
This will be like 10Mb/s without cache.
I just saw a video where the host compared the samsung 1tb 860 and 860 qvo, both where 2.5in SSDs. After the cache was filled on the qvo it dropped down to 70mb/s write speed. I rather get a big storage HD for those speeds.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
272 (0.07/day)
This is very good, we need this PLC for low end drives like SATA and cheap usb memory, in the long run it will increase competition and give high end drives more capacity for less.
 

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
28,410 (4.72/day)
Location
Indiana, USA
Processor Intel Core i7 10850K@5.2GHz
Motherboard AsRock Z470 Taichi
Cooling Corsair H115i Pro w/ Noctua NF-A14 Fans
Memory 32GB DDR4-3600
Video Card(s) RTX 2070 Super
Storage 500GB SX8200 Pro + 8TB with 1TB SSD Cache
Display(s) Acer Nitro VG280K 4K 28"
Case Fractal Design Define S
Audio Device(s) Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply eVGA SuperNOVA 1000w G3
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
I just saw a video where the host compared the samsung 1tb 860 and 860 qvo, both where 2.5in SSDs. After the cache was filled on the qvo it dropped down to 70mb/s write speed. I rather get a big storage HD for those speeds.

Yeah, but in normal use you are very unlikely to fill up that cache.
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
93 (0.02/day)
Location
Thailand
System Name amy-pc
Processor ryzen 5 2600
Motherboard asus a320m-k
Cooling stock cpu fan
Memory 16gb(8*2) bus 3200
Video Card(s) msi rx560 4gb
Storage wd black 500gb sn750 nvme, 2x120gb apacer sata (raid0), 8tb nas synology ds220j
Display(s) msi optix g24 series, freesync 75hz
Audio Device(s) nubwo southpaw ns-12
Power Supply cooler master 550w
Mouse g102
Keyboard philips spk8901
Software windows 11 insider
PLC flash with some spinning HDD cache? :laugh:

It doesn't matter using QLC since any flash storages are still faster than HDD in reading.
Those some cache should be enough for normal writing.
It'll start to make you feel disappointed when you write data that larger than its cache.

But for PLC, I couldn't see a serious reason to go.
SSD that slower than HDD is useless. Like a pricey HDD.
 
Top