Trying to understand Ryzen 3000 series boost speed variations

[Zach_01]

RyzenDRAMcalc has a tRFC calculator to find tRFC2/4. There is a relation (ratio) between them that I dont remember right now.
Anyway, this goes like this:
tRFC---tRFC2---tRFC4
345----256----158
358----266----164

I dont even know if X470/B450 has this SOC/Uncore setting. At mine is Under AMD CBS --> XFR Enhancement. Look there or could be inside M.I.T page. Check all those settings one by one.

 

[lorry]

RyzenDRAMcalc has a tRFC calculator to find tRFC2/4. There is a relation (ratio) between them that I dont remember right now.
Anyway, this goes like this:
tRFC---tRFC2---tRFC4
345----256----158
358----266----164

I dont even know if X470/B450 has this SOC/Uncore setting. At mine is Under AMD CBS --> XFR Enhancement. Look there or could be inside M.I.T page. Check all those settings one by one.

So tRFC2 is Not tFRC (alt) then ?

 

[Zach_01]

No, some settings provided with alternative values in case the recommended doesnt work

 

[lorry]

 

[Zach_01]

Found the tRFC ratio:

tRFC2 should be (tRFC / 1.346), and tRFC4 should be (tRFC2 / 1.625)

 

[lorry]

Hmm OK this is odd, everything but the mouse has frozen, was watching BZ video.
Ctrl-alt-del won't work., so How do I get out of this, press reset?

 

[Zach_01]

Everything on auto/default?
Yes, if its locked then reset...

 

[lorry]

Everything on auto/default?
Yes, if its locked then reset...

Yeah rebooting now
Where do I look to find out what happened please?

Hmm, it would seem that there have been a number of warnings and critical due to this

Faulting application path: C:\Program Files (x86)\Virgin Media\Security Advisor Extension\3.6.3.62400\Opswat\3.6.8858.62326\64bitProxy.exe

I have now uninstalled it

 

[tabascosauz]

I'd like to just know where it is in the bios, or even If it is a setting in the bios at all, that's all.
Things like that bug me, I know that they shouldn't but they do. Makes me think that I've not checked properly

If it makes you feel any better, if you can't find it under CBS it may not be in the BIOS at all. Same goes for the voltage menu. In F50, I now have two goddamn RGB Fusion menus on the same page, but one has only two options in it and only displays color control in hex codes. They also added the per-CCX clock control option, which doesn't work at all and causes the boot logo to freeze. If Gigabyte would just learn to make BIOSes properly and consistently.

 

[lorry]

If it makes you feel any better, if you can't find it under CBS it may not be in the BIOS at all. Same goes for the voltage menu. In F50, I now have two goddamn RGB Fusion menus on the same page, but one has only two options in it and only displays color control in hex codes. They also added the per-CCX clock control option, which doesn't work at all and causes the boot logo to freeze. If Gigabyte would just learn to make BIOSes properly and consistently.

I have Exactly the same double RGB Fusion menus as I am on F50 as well. In some ways I'd wished that I'd have waited just a little and got a x570 board. Trouble there is, anything that had enough USB headers, SATA, etc I was looking at £350 - £400!

Question, just been reading 'AMD Ryzen Memory Tweaking & Overclocking Guide; from on here. It states at the end that "All memory on Samsung chips can without exception work at 3533 MHz CL14"
If that is the case, how much of a performance increase is there in trying 3600 MHz CL16 ?

 

[tabascosauz]

I have Exactly the same double RGB Fusion menus as I am on F50 as well. In some ways I'd wished that I'd have waited just a little and got a x570 board. Trouble there is, anything that had enough USB headers, SATA, etc I was looking at £350 - £400!

Question, just been reading 'AMD Ryzen Memory Tweaking & Overclocking Guide; from on here. It states at the end that "All memory on Samsung chips can without exception work at 3533 MHz CL14"
If that is the case, how much of a performance increase is there in trying 3600 MHz CL16 ?

I went with the B450 to save money, and kinda wish I had waited for the X570I Strix instead.

In all seriousness, Gigabyte is consistent about one thing: half-assing its BIOSes. We have more or less the same generation BIOS as the X570s, minus some features obviously. My H97N-WIFI is even worse, laggy and a nightmare to navigate.

As for the guide, that statement is kinda questionable and not one of 1usmus' brightest moments. All he's tested in that one are a smattering of B-die, some CJR and one MFR. "All Samsung" includes E-die and D-die; the former does 3200/14 maybe, and the latter is a dumpster fire. That's without even mentioning A-die that's starting to appear now.

Not to mention, B-die is really doing a disappearing act now that it's discontinued. A lot of the model identification guides out there written during the Zen+ era aren't going to be accurate anymore, and the former B-die SKUs might have E-die, CJR/DJR or Micron now.

You should try for 3200/14 and make it stable. Performance difference to 3600/16 is pretty minimal as tested in a number of guides out there.

 

[lorry]

I went with the B450 to save money, and kinda wish I had waited for the X570I Strix instead.

In all seriousness, Gigabyte is consistent about one thing: half-assing its BIOSes. We have more or less the same generation BIOS as the X570s, minus some features obviously. My H97N-WIFI is even worse, laggy and a nightmare to navigate.

As for the guide, that statement is kinda questionable and not one of 1usmus' brightest moments. All he's tested in that one are a smattering of B-die, some CJR and one MFR. "All Samsung" includes E-die and D-die; the former does 3200/14 maybe, and the latter is a dumpster fire. That's without even mentioning A-die that's starting to appear now.

Not to mention, B-die is really doing a disappearing act now that it's discontinued. A lot of the model identification guides out there written during the Zen+ era aren't going to be accurate anymore, and the former B-die SKUs might have E-die, CJR/DJR or Micron now.

You should try for 3200/14 and make it stable. Performance difference to 3600/16 is pretty minimal as tested in a number of guides out there.

I'm reasonably lucky in that mine is Intel® 11ac 2x2 WAVE2 WIFI but use Ethernet. The wi-fi seems to pick up just about every router that's nearby though and with decent signal strengths, so I'm lucky there.

So, when I first start, I drop out of XMP I'm sure, do I then set something to manual to enable all the timings to be edited? Memory Timing Mode, or something else?
I was looking this morning for an IF speed (FCLK?) but don't recall seeing it
And I never found the UCLK DIV1 MODE to set it UCLK ==MEMCLK
Thoughts?

 

[Zach_01]

You should try for 3200/14 and make it stable. Performance difference to 3600/16 is pretty minimal as tested in a number of guides out there.

Still prefering 3600 CL16-16-16...
First of all 3200 C14-14-14... is difficult to achieve with no expensive sticks and second 3600+ lets you raise UCLK/FCLK with ram. Higher bandwidth, lower latency. Worst case senario is even performance with 3200 CL14 but could benefit perf at some cases.

@lorry if you cant find SOC/Uncore OC just let it go and proceed with the other settings, when you feel like it...
If you cant find UCLK DIV1 MODE either skip that too. At least you must have a FCLK setting...
We will see after going into win what RyzenMaster says about the RAM:UCLK:FCLK ratio

 

[lorry]

Still prefering 3600 CL16-16-16...
First of all 3200 C14-14-14... is difficult to achieve with no expensive sticks and second 3600+ lets you raise UCLK/FCLK with ram. Higher bandwidth, lower latency. Worst case senario is even performance with 3200 CL14 but could benefit perf at some cases.

@lorry if you cant find SOC/Uncore OC just let it go and proceed with the other settings, when you feel like it...
If you cant find UCLK DIV1 MODE either skip that too. At least you must have a FCLK setting...
We will see after going into win what RyzenMaster says about the RAM:UCLK:FCLK ratio

What I should have done is take pics of each section instead of Just the advanced memory section. My excuse was a crappy night gave up at 02:30 with trying to sleep and was downstairs by 03:30, but wasn't thinking things through, heh.

 

[tabascosauz]

I'm reasonably lucky in that mine is Intel® 11ac 2x2 WAVE2 WIFI but use Ethernet. The wi-fi seems to pick up just about every router that's nearby though and with decent signal strengths, so I'm lucky there.

So, when I first start, I drop out of XMP I'm sure, do I then set something to manual to enable all the timings to be edited? Memory Timing Mode, or something else?
I was looking this morning for an IF speed (FCLK?) but don't recall seeing it
And I never found the UCLK DIV1 MODE to set it UCLK ==MEMCLK
Thoughts?

You don't have to drop out of XMP. You can leave it on in order to keep the 3200 frequency, and scroll down in the same timings page and switch it to manual, and start editing below it immediately. The perk about that is that you don't have to worry about DRAM voltage, XMP takes care of that at 1.35v.

I have a feeling manual settings for FCLK is buried somewhere in either AMD Overclocking or CBS. Even with manual timings with XMP "enabled", FCLK does a pretty good job of syncing itself up with MCLK at 3200-3600.

My Wifi is also Wave2, as I'm sure most 400-series boards are, but my router is so trash that whether it's ac, ac Wave2, or ax matters little to me. Ethernet is my lifeline.

@Zach_01 not sure I agree with the reasoning here, but let's just say that it might be easier with less things to tweak if he gave 3200 a shot, since XMP is 3200. Even 16-16-16-36 should be in the 74ns range and better than it is currently.

 

[Zach_01]

73ns is where I started, with XMP 3466 CL16-18-18-18-36 and know I'm at 68ns with 3600 CL16-16-16-16-32-48 and a few GB/s increase in bandwidth.
I even manage to do a 65.5~66ns at 3800 CL16-17-16-16-36 but with 1.45+V DRAM and other voltages up like SoC voltage(1.2V), but I decide that wasnt worth the stress.
3600 is a good spot IMHO. Every CPU can do it... depending the RAM.

 

[Deleted member 185158]

Just a heads up for you Lorry.
Your board supports up to 2933mhz native. Anything past that is O.C. for your motherboard. So your best stability will be at that speed. Even 3000mhz is an O.C. for that board.
Don't feel bad, mine only supports 2666 native and anything above that is considered an O.C. to my board. Good, I like overclocking!

So loosing stability past 3200mhz may be a real thing.

The X570 AORUS PRO WIFI is 3200mhz native (ryzen 3000 series chips) and anything higher is considered an O.C. to this board and will have an easier time stabilizing 3600mhz than your current X470 which was built based on the Zen + platform much like mine is.

Start low, work your way up the testing chain. Run XMP timings at 3200mhz and go up each selection of speed until reaching max stable. Then, you tweak the timings at that speed if able to.

I'd wished that I'd have waited just a little and got a x570 board.

Yep. You can still save moneys, get new board, sell old board, probably save for much faster memory too.
Sell your used stuff to recuperate some moneys. You'll get much better performance if you can get 3600-4000mhz memory frequencies.

 

[lorry]

I'll give 3600 a go seeing as I already have those timings already printed out. I found a video tonight where the guy showed adjusting the memory multiplier, he just highlighted & simply typed in the new figure, I had been clicking on it expecting it to open up an area where you adjusted, not just simply type the figures in once highlighted.
Goes to show just how many YouTube folk forget the exceedingly easy stuff, heh

 

[tabascosauz]

73ns is where I started, with XMP 3466 CL16-18-18-18-36 and know I'm at 68ns with 3600 CL16-16-16-16-32-48 and a few GB/s increase in bandwidth.
I even manage to do a 65.5~66ns at 3800 CL16-17-16-16-36 but with 1.45+V DRAM and other voltages up like SoC voltage(1.2V), but I decide that wasnt worth the stress.
3600 is a good spot IMHO. Every CPU can do it... depending the RAM.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that. Even on TPU alone, we've already had at least a 3-chiplet CPU (3900X) that couldn't even sustain 1800 FCLK. And the 3-chiplets are supposed to be a bit better binned - we all know how some of the binning on the 3600s and 3600Xs have turned out, being at the bottom of the stack.

I'm at 3600 too, 16-19-16-19-32-48, 69ns. I'm not disputing that 3600/16 is an nice place to be.

I think I understand what you're getting at with 3600/16, 3200/14 might be a stretch even with looser tRP and tRCD. What I want to know is what DRAM calc is telling @lorry for 3600, V2 profile (as his B-die most definitely counts as less than "high quality"). I don't think it's going to recommend flat 16 timings at 3600, some 17s mixed in there.

Just a heads up for you Lorry.
Your board supports up to 2933mhz native. Anything past that is O.C. for your motherboard. So your best stability will be at that speed. Even 3000mhz is an O.C. for that board.
Don't feel bad, mine only supports 2666 native and anything above that is considered an O.C. to my board. Good, I like overclocking!

So loosing stability past 3200mhz may be a real thing.

The X570 AORUS PRO WIFI is 3200mhz native (ryzen 3000 series chips) and anything higher is considered an O.C. to this board and will have an easier time stabilizing 3600mhz than your current X470 which was built based on the Zen + platform much like mine is.

Start low, work your way up the testing chain. Run XMP timings at 3200mhz and go up each selection of speed until reaching max stable. Then, you tweak the timings at that speed if able to.

The thing about "official" 3200 support this generation is that it's a bit of a misnomer. "3200" from AMD refers to JEDEC spec, which is CAS 20, with 20s across the main timings. That's incredibly loose. Most medium-quality 3200 kits out there are running XMP for 16 or even 16 flat timings, and B-die as we all know was usually 14.

 

[Deleted member 185158]

I'll give 3600 a go seeing as I already have those timings already printed out. I found a video tonight where the guy showed adjusting the memory multiplier, he just highlighted & simply typed in the new figure, I had been clicking on it expecting it to open up an area where you adjusted, not just simply type the figures in once highlighted.
Goes to show just how many YouTube folk forget the exceedingly easy stuff, heh

3200 XMP to 3600mhz? Yea give it a go. Give Memory voltage a little bump if it's shakey. Would start 3533mhz first, test then 3600 same timings.
Since you are actively cooling, you can exceed 1.400v with that memory. Nothing to really worry about. 1.50v would be max fanless IMO.
Now this really all depends how far down that rabbit hole goes. I fear not 1.600v personally.

But keep in mind, I constantly alter my settings and timings. Memory swaps too. I like to compare my Hynix to samsung especially at lower speeds. Both do Cas 13 3000mhz 1.450-v and cas 12 at 1.60v stable (enough for me) but yes with errors over time.

In short, memory overclocking is very similar to chipset or Cpu overclocking. Faster speeds may require more voltage, very quite normal.
The only issue is my suggestions may be way out of the normal for average user base, I will be shunned no doubt for my above comments lol. IDC though. It's muh hobby

 

[Zach_01]

I'll give 3600 a go seeing as I already have those timings already printed out. I found a video tonight where the guy showed adjusting the memory multiplier, he just highlighted & simply typed in the new figure, I had been clicking on it expecting it to open up an area where you adjusted, not just simply type the figures in once highlighted.
Goes to show just how many YouTube folk forget the exceedingly easy stuff, heh

I dont like using the mouse...
At Gigabyte UEFI when settings have other pages in them, have a red/orange square/dot on the left side. If the dot is absence then you can cycle settings with +/- or when there is a value you can type it Or hit enter to see the drop down menu

 

[Deleted member 185158]

I wouldn't be so quick to say that. Even on TPU alone, we've already had at least a 3-chiplet CPU (3900X) that couldn't even sustain 1800 FCLK. And the 3-chiplets are supposed to be a bit better binned - we all know how some of the binning on the 3600s and 3600Xs have turned out, being at the bottom of the stack.

I'm at 3600 too, 16-19-16-19-32-48, 69ns. I'm not disputing that 3600/16 is an nice place to be.

I think I understand what you're getting at with 3600/16, 3200/14 might be a stretch even with looser tRP and tRCD. What I want to know is what DRAM calc is telling @lorry for 3600, V2 profile (as his B-die most definitely counts as less than "high quality"). I don't think it's going to recommend flat 16 timings at 3600, some 17s mixed in there.



The thing about "official" 3200 support this generation is that it's a bit of a misnomer. "3200" from AMD refers to JEDEC spec, which is CAS 20, with 20s across the main timings. That's incredibly loose. Most medium-quality 3200 kits out there are running XMP for 16 or even 16 flat timings, and B-die as we all know was usually 14.

Not really. Look at your Memory support list once. you won't find much over 2400mhz supported for your QVL list. it'll list timing specs and voltages for said support.

Cpu supports up to X speed, XMP said speed for memory and X speed for X motherboard. That's how it really works. The speed that matches all 3 is the true supported speed and you will find it right when you clear cmos and post it up. THAT is the native set speed for all 3 devices. Anything altered by all technicality actually voids all 3 warranties.... not that any one ever questions it even when you RMA lol. But still, the point is, no, JEDEC is a memory spec, not a motherboard spec.

 

[lorry]

I dont like using the mouse...
At Gigabyte UEFI when settings have other pages in them, have a red/orange square/dot on the left side. If the dot is absence then you can cycle settings with +/- or when there is a value you can type it Or hit enter to see the drop down menu

Thanks, I've not spent much time in the bios as I'd have liked for now. I'll have another look tomorrow morning and play around (I know that as long as I don't save than I can't do any harm to my settings

Well I tried.
First time the two clocks were out of sync and decoupled - 1600 & 1800
2nd time one was at around 1000, the other 1200
3rd time wouldn't even get to bios, it tried about 3,4,5,6 times, i ended up turning power off, clearing CMOS and Finally getting back into bios, loaded up the regular profile that I'd saved of PBO & XMP etc enabled. Windows then went into automatic repair and I'm back were I started

About the only good thing is that I found were FCLK, UCLK==MEMCLK, SoC/Uncore OC are.

I'll try again later, I have a daily post to make and then I don't know, as the torys got back in, which makes my life really hard Again

 

[Zach_01]

Did you try with 16-16-16-16-32 and 1.4V?
If yes then try 16-17-17-17-36, 1.4V

tRFC?

 

[lorry]

Did you try with 16-16-16-16-32 and 1.4V?
If yes then try 16-17-17-17-36, 1.4V

tRFC?

tfrc was 345, as suggested by dram calc

thing i dont understand is how could they become uncoupled when i had set UCLK==MEMCLK ?