Trying to understand Ryzen 3000 series boost speed variations

[Waldorf]

@Mastakilla
not looking at fan noise, aio's from corsair/arctic/alpha cool have no audible pump noise,
and the arctic/alpha cool have pwm on pump and fans, so even less noise when system isnt under load.

my rig is inaudible (fans), and i can only hear the pump (arctic/alpha) if im right at the air intake of the case.
they also use their own pump design (big difference to others using asetek and their high fail rate),
exception would be corsair, since they offer 5y warranty including parts of your rig that get damaged if it fails.

 

[Zach_01]

I can confirm that my Corsair's H110i 280mm pump (dont know the type) that has 2 selectable speeds is really quiet. Low speed 2350rpm is completely inaudible and high speed 2830rpm does some noise but I hear it only late at night with all other fans on low 700~800rpm. And I dont have a case...!! A case cuts some noise...
So AIOs are not as noisy as some users think. And the larger (280~360mm) the better and quieter. Of course if you are willing to pay the premium for it against a tower cooler. Personally I will never go back to tower air coolers unless something far innovating comes out.

 

[Waldorf]

I would, if it was possible to have separate chambers around cpu/gpu that would allow for air to go straight in and out.
But since that is much more complex and possibly involves the same cost, ill stick with water.
Outside the fact it still transfers heat better than air.

 

[lorry]

That's the AIO ordered etc. I decided that to begin with I will just use the Kryonaught thermal paste, otherwise I will not have a baseline for comparison if I just went straight to liquid metal.
It will be better for the first time install as I won't know in advance where any potential pitfalls are when using liquid metal (as in awkward positioning of the rad, pump etc).

I can confirm that my Corsair's H110i 280mm pump (dont know the type) that has 2 selectable speeds is really quiet. Low speed 2350rpm is completely inaudible and high speed 2830rpm does some noise but I hear it only late at night with all other fans on low 700~800rpm. And I dont have a case...!! A case cuts some noise...
So AIOs are not as noisy as some users think. And the larger (280~360mm) the better and quieter. Of course if you are willing to pay the premium for it against a tower cooler. Personally I will never go back to tower air coolers unless something far innovating comes out.

i did see a video from Linus i think it was where he showed a new non-water cooler. I can't remember now many details now but it was a new material/design/concept that is being developed. I think that they already have a version out this year, pre-order ATM

$120 - IceGiant ProSiphon Elite

IceGiant Cooling

IceGiantCooling

www.icegiantcooling.com

I would, if it was possible to have separate chambers around cpu/gpu that would allow for air to go straight in and out.
But since that is much more complex and possibly involves the same cost, ill stick with water.
Outside the fact it still transfers heat better than air.

Well for a start you would need a GPU extension ribbon cable at the very least, and they are generally £30 - £50

 

[Waldorf]

Not so much as it is to enclose the gpu, without being in the way of the MB, even if its just for install.

 

[lorry]

Not so much as it is to enclose the gpu, without being in the way of the MB, even if its just for install.

I was thinking something along the lines of those cases that have the PSU in a separate section, something akin to that.

 

[Waldorf]

yeah, but to not feed hot air into the psu, it would need separate area,
and you would end up with 3 or even 4 sections, but the required openings to install and use hw/wiring etc., would pretty much counter the gains.

i think to really make use of that and a case that can do that, we would need to have the MB split into smaller boards
that could be indifferent locations, which would require even more wiring (between the different boards).

and any custom "panel" (to use as a divider) i came up with, faces similar issues.
not even talking about the fact there is no case that has a (big) exhaust opening at/below pcie slots to get the gpu heat out.

 

[Mastakilla]

Thanks again for all advice! What temps are getting with your AIO in silent mode when running Prime95?
When I run Prime95 v29.8 build6 in blend mode, it stays around 60-74°C 95% of the time, but for some tests (I guess AVX) it reached up to 86°C.

 

[lorry]

yeah, but to not feed hot air into the psu, it would need seperate area,
and you and up with 3 or even 4 sections, but the required openings to install/use hw/wiring etc
would pretty much counter the gains.
i think to really make use of that and a case that can do that, we would need to have the MB split into smaller boards
that could be indifferent locations, which would require even more wiring etc.

and any custom "panel" (to use as a divider)bi came up with faces similar issues,
not even talking about the fact there is no case that has a (big) exhaust opening at/below pcie slots to get the gpu heat out.

it's pretty much a non starter unless you have some decent equipment and can mod/build a case from scratch I'd say

 

[mtcn77]

You have one of the greatest ZEN2 CPUs. I'm also, like most users here, against static OC of ZEN2 simply because AMD made these chips advanced enough to give the most performance out of the box and for all load situations and scenarios. A lot of users have not understand yet the key operating and performance aspects or distinctiveness of ZEN2 and trying to compare it with previous gens or Intel rivals. Big mistake...
Given all that, the headroom for improving what you get out of the box is in most cases marginal. But still there is headroom left, more like a fine-tune if you want to call it that.
One of the major key fact and aspect of these CPUs to maximize performance, is the operating temperature. While the max allowed (within specs) operating temp is <95C (starts to throttle rated clocks) users can keep gaining some more boost by cooling them down to like 50C for max load. This temp of course is not achievable with conventional means, so every user must find satisfaction to a midle point. Where the cost of cooling is justified by what they gain. Not every user's mindset has the same sweetspot for this. Let alone its not known to every user... and if we throw into the equation the (acceptable to any user) noise levels, things get more complicated.
At ~94C the CPU will have X all core boost. At 50C all core load the CPU will increase clock and voltage about maybe 200MHz. Lets say 4.4MHz/1C reduction. If your CPU operates at 85C and you manage to cool it to 70C you will gain like 65MHz all core boost without doing anything else. There are more tweaks to be done to increase clock further, like undervoltage(not always successful) and/or EDC reduction, but temp is key to this (for EDC) also.

Undervolting too, everyone's chip is different. Your board may be overvolting your chip to the moon, or your chip might already be in its happy place. You just have to see for yourself. Take it slow, in the smallest voltage adjustment increments possible, and use Dynamic Voltage or Voltage Offset (whatever it's called) adjustments instead of fixed "dumb" voltage. EDC adjustment and undervolting should be mutually exclusive, though. But YMMV

I've read many things, like PBO often decreasing performance, which then might be (or get) solved by AGESA 1.0.0.4 or higher (but didn't find confirmation on that).
I've also read that sometimes lowering the voltage a little can help a bit (I suppose this is what you do to "tweak" EDC?)

I am certain to savour this thread. Much trending connotations here. As of right now, it is my opinion that we are waiting for AMD to step in to standardize the voltage supply of motherboard makers to a higher extent - something to the tune of full FIVR found on 4000's Intel Haswell chips. Right now, the cpu is interacting with the voltage supply, however we aren't certain it is the bog standard AMD profile to be sure it is the optimal gradient. It could be oversupplying at some and natively delivering in some other range. What we need is to forget scalar, edc, ppt, offset and llc and just enjoy the motherboard cpu interface doing everything right at stock from the get go, plug & play. I know it can be done which is why I am ready for it.
Temperaturewise, GamersNexus states that AMD documents specify the temperature for PBO cutoff point is 61.8°C, so if you really need that 142w ppt - the chiller is required.

 

[Waldorf]

Not really possible, unless you're manufacturing identical cpus.
The variations and tiny differences in Silicon are the reason why i had my first 3600 running with 1.3-1.44 (normal/auto in bios), when the one im running now doesnt go past 1.25 under load.

i dont really see this making sense for amd right now, investing even more money to do something like intel, and probably having higher price on product..

 

[mtcn77]

Not really possible, unless you're manufacturing identical cpus.
The variations and tiny differences in Silicon are the reason why i had my first 3600 running with 1.3-1.44 (normal/auto in bios), when the one im running now doesnt go past 1.25 under load.

i dont really see this making sense for amd right now, investing even more money to do something like intel, and probably having higher price on product..

I am not opting for the hardware path, that ship has sailed quite a long time ago. The microcode trains the ram tertiaries quite the same way, it would just specify on auto which path has the lowest SD from mean. Quite a simple algorithm.
The underlying reason is, PBO is limited for further development unless we open up stock settings too.

It is ever so simpler if the vrm is analog. The cpu already knows what is supplied to its demands. The microcode has just to keep a backlog how many corrections have filtered through upon a set period, or which setting flips the vrm voltage supply the most amount of times(smallest SD outline).

 

[Zach_01]

Thanks again for all advice! What temps are getting with your AIO in silent mode when running Prime95?
When I run Prime95 v29.8 build6 in blend mode, it stays around 60-74°C 95% of the time, but for some tests (I guess AVX) it reached up to 86°C.

If you are talking to me, then around 58C for small (does not reach any limit) and 62C for smallest FFTs (reach EDC limit) but I have reduced EDC limit and PBO scalar X2. This gives it best boosting on benchmarks scores and pretty much every non single threaded scenario. From 2~3 threads up to full load.

When CB-R20, it reaches 60~61C on the 80sec it runs for it to complete.

Idon't have case and the ambient is around 22C...

I am certain to savour this thread. Much trending connotations here. As of right now, it is my opinion that we are waiting for AMD to step in to standardize the voltage supply of motherboard makers to a higher extent - something to the tune of full FIVR found on 4000's Intel Haswell chips. Right now, the cpu is interacting with the voltage supply, however we aren't certain it is the bog standard AMD profile to be sure it is the optimal gradient. It could be oversupplying at some and natively delivering in some other range. What we need is to forget scalar, edc, ppt, offset and llc and just enjoy the motherboard cpu interface doing everything right at stock from the get go, plug & play. I know it can be done which is why I am ready for it.
Temperaturewise, GamersNexus states that AMD documents specify the temperature for PBO cutoff point is 61.8°C *, so if you really need that 142w ppt - the chiller is required.

Well we like to play around with the CPUs... Not really for something ground breaking... Its physically impossible for these (ZEN2) CPUs. More like tweaking it a little and maybe fine tune it if possible. I personally enjoy that procedure... others too I think.
But not something like a static OC. Couldn't care less for that and I'm against it.

*FYI.. going from 62C to 58C with all core R20 runs (maximizing cooling) I saw clock/voltage increase and a proportional increase in scores, while EDC limit reduced (capped) and Scalar X2. PPT is up exceed stock limit of 88W (for my 3600). Even with normal cooling (not max) there are gains, but not without EDC reduction.
@lorry doing the same, also saw the same kind of increases capping EDC and hitting that 142W PPT limit. And he is not even below 62C...
Of course, for full utilization of PBO unconventional cooling method is required as I already state, but we are trying to do the best with what we have, and we enjoy it...

 

[Waldorf]

@lorry
so just to show the pump is pretty decent on the eisbaer:
i was running it in bios with silent/normal/full profile , resulting in about 12xx/16xx/22xx rpm at idle/low load.

after making sure it starts with rpm below it, im now using a manual profile with 1000-1100 rpm at idle,
scaling up to 2600 rpm if cpu goes past 55*C.
even with the reduced rpm, i still get the same 32*C on idle, and my room is about 1/2 degree warmer right now.
so you should be good even with the 3900, and with the gpu added you night need to go with a steeper curve,
but even under full load the pump is still pretty much silent compared to your fan noise.

 

[lorry]

@lorry
so just to show the pump is pretty decent on the eisbaer:
i was running it in bios with silent/normal/full profile , resulting in about 12xx/16xx/22xx rpm at idle/low load.

after making sure it starts with rpm below it, im now using a manual profile with 1000-1100 rpm at idle,
scaling up to 2600 rpm if cpu goes past 55*C.
even with the reduced rpm, i still get the same 32*C on idle, and my room is about 1/2 degree warmer right now.
so you should be good even with the 3900, and with the gpu added you night need to go with a steeper curve,
but even under full load the pump is still pretty much silent compared to your fan noise.

What is silent/normal/full profile? is that some setting Just for your MB?

You've lost me with manual curve etc?

 

[tabascosauz]

What is silent/normal/full profile? is that some setting Just for your MB?

You've lost me with manual curve etc?

In the BIOS fan control there's a drop down menu for each header. You can pick from silent (lower speed and delays the ramp up), normal, full speed (exactly what it sounds like), and manual (allows you to adjust the points on the curve to your liking to make a curve of your liking).

Manual is worth tinkering with, if you've never tried it.

 

[lorry]

In the BIOS fan control there's a drop down menu for each header. You can pick from silent (lower speed and delays the ramp up), normal, full speed (exactly what it sounds like), and manual (allows you to adjust the points on the curve to your liking to make a curve of your liking).

Manual is worth tinkering with, if you've never tried it.

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that
Thanks

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Complete change of plans LoL

I have bought a used Thermaltake view 71 case. It is only 6 months old as well for half the list price
"For sale is my Thermaltake View 71 case. I've owned it since June and is still in excellent condition (the plastic film is still on the right side panel). It comes with everything that is included from new including two blue LED fans and the vertical GPU adaptor. Reason for sale is because I'm rebuilding my PC and going mini-ITX. "

Checked Alphacools' site and whilst they do a 420 (459 x 144 x 30) for not much more (£10) Thermaltake only specify 420 as the length and I can't seem to find anything more specific than that, which is a bit frustrating but as a 360 can be fitted on the side if I wanted, not too much of a problem in reality.



Will of course mean a complete swap over but I feel that it will be worth it in the end.
The only potential problem to solve looks to be the vertical GPU mount. Theirs does the usual of placing it close to the side window which isn't ideal at all. The Coolermaster vertical mount that I have is placed instead of the 7 PCI slots and then places the GPU a good 8 - 10 cm from the glass and the temps are fine in the H500M so sure they will be in the view 71. The only thing is that I may need to cut away the pieces of metal that are between the PCI slats. Not hard but another layer of something needed to be done. The other reason of course is that the riser ribbon is made for the Coolermaster mount and has the fixings for that. Sure it'll be an easy enough 'fix' to do.

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I also found a Very interesting maker of various PC shrouds and covers. They make them out of plexi-glass and are in Portugal

Coldzero International | eBay Stores

We specialize in the creation of computer modding parts. We'll be adding more products, so be sure to check back again soon for more awesome parts.

www.ebay.co.uk

Oh this is their long shroud for the view 71

 

[Waldorf]

unless for the looks, no,need.
with the aio taking the cpu heat outside the case (lowering case temps significantly),
the psu wont get hot anymore, but without a shroud be able to remove some heat around the area,
and help with airflow.
One reason i run my psu with the fan facing up, to draw more air thru the case (instead of the psu vent at bottom of the case).

 

[lorry]

unless for the looks, no,need.
with the aio taking the cpu heat outside the case (lowering case temps significantly),
the psu wont get hot anymore, but without a shroud be able to remove some heat around the area,
and help with airflow.

The also do fan covers, GPU backplates, SSD covers, GPU anti sag, etc, so not Just for the aesthetics

oh and @Fry178 , not one word about the case then? tsk tsk

 

[Waldorf]

nope. only will say something when its crap, haha.
nice case, but i did too many rigs/cases that im not interested in dealing with a small/compact case anymore,
or i would have gotten this:

Amazon.com: Thermaltake Core X1 Mini ITX Stackable Tt LCS Certified Cube Computer Chassis CA-1D6-00S1WN-00: Computers & Accessories

Buy Thermaltake Core X1 Mini ITX Stackable Tt LCS Certified Cube Computer Chassis CA-1D6-00S1WN-00: Everything Else - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

smile.amazon.com

 

[lorry]

nope. only will say something when its crap, haha.
nice case, but i did too many rigs/cases that im not interested in dealing with a small/compact case anymore,
or i would have gotten this:

Amazon.com: Thermaltake Core X1 Mini ITX Stackable Tt LCS Certified Cube Computer Chassis CA-1D6-00S1WN-00: Computers & Accessories

Buy Thermaltake Core X1 Mini ITX Stackable Tt LCS Certified Cube Computer Chassis CA-1D6-00S1WN-00: Everything Else - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

smile.amazon.com

small? compact?


Width 27.4 cm
Depth 57.7 cm
Height 59.2 cm

 

[Zach_01]

Yeah... it’s looks misleading is...

What‘s GPU anti sag?

 

[lorry]

Yeah... it’s looks misleading is...

What‘s GPU anti sag?

oh one of those anti sag brackets that seem to be the rage now. some do stands, some like coolermaster have a bracket on the back wall, others do it like this

 

[Zach_01]

Oh right... for weight support. Did not have idea this existed

 

[lorry]

Oh right... for weight support. Did not have idea this existed

Many many different idea now, from brackets that bolt on at the front of the GPU, at the back, fixed to a rail on the back wall, free standing, with RGB as well, lol