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Unlimited Detail Technology

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#76
@scaminatrix: what do you mean by JF-AMD? Lol, think about it though, how do you ask AMD for an insider email address without having any email address to ask it from?
JF-AMD is a member here, he's a rep for the server side of AMD. He floats around TPU clearing up misconceptions and alleviating confusion lol
 
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#77
people contacting companies: Use the contact forms on thier websites. use a professional email address in the input field. they will likely ignore @yahoo @hotmail @gmail , etc. Try to find a free provider that is relatively unknown.

These kinda companies get trolled a lot. They have put up defenses. I've legitimately tried to contact Emergent Game Technologies about pricing and they flat out refused to reply to me. I've had zero luck with them.

Contacting Havok REQUIRES a company email. THEY WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANY FREE EMAIL ADDRESSES. it must be a game company domain email like r.cat@ea.com or something like that.

Most game related companies will have crap like this to overcome.

Try to get a hold of a professional email address.
 
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#78
@streetfighter 2: Sorry, I'm not too... ah... patent concious. Could you try search Euclideon and see if anything turns up? According to euclideon.com, it seems that they're based in Australia, think this could be the reason for lack of patents/support?

@Kreji: Not doubting their awareness as much as wanting them to give some support and or explore viability. Basically don't want them to dump it just because it will indeed deliver and they're just scared of what that may mean.

@scaminatrix: ah, I see.
 
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#79
EDIT:
I searched the USPTO for patents written by Bruce Robert Dell, without success.
Searching for patents with "point cloud data" in the title yielded some results (the most recent of which was filed in 2006):
Fix'd!
This is what I was looking for. It seems very likely that this is going be infringing on someone elses patent then. Shame.
 
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#80
people contacting companies: Use the contact forms on thier websites. use a professional email address in the input field. they will likely ignore @yahoo @hotmail @gmail , etc. Try to find a free provider that is relatively unknown.

These kinda companies get trolled a lot. They have put up defenses. I've legitimately tried to contact Emergent Game Technologies about pricing and they flat out refused to reply to me. I've had zero luck with them.

Contacting Havok REQUIRES a company email. THEY WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANY FREE EMAIL ADDRESSES. it must be a game company domain email like r.cat@ea.com or something like that.

Most game related companies will have crap like this to overcome.

Try to get a hold of a professional email address.
Or... put your name down here: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/amd_support_udtech/
(or both;))
 

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#81
dosent matter how good this is and heres why almost anything done in 3d is still at its root a polygon no matter if its a triangle or a quad some of the tech in this is used at the END of the pipeline to be blunt this wont cut development time on games or 3d in general for the most part it adds another step sure its possible that i can give a better image better visuals thats one of its strong points. The sad fact is tho before you get those points the models etc need to be made and just about every $1000-$50,000 piece of software in the Entertainment industry uses 1 of three things in terms of rendering a mesh.

Sub Division Surfaces there a semi combination of nurbs and polygons there never perfectly flat but there not as natural as a nurbs surface they function like polygons but allow select areas to be highly detailed while others can be sparse aka a knuckle on a finger could have 100k + polygons to show wrinkles while the rest of the hand might only be 10k polygons to show proper rounding etc. Its a go between thats seldom used.

NURBS surfaces are always round in someway if it curves it never has a straight edge so these are the closest to real life a 3d app gets in terms of lower system usage for high lvls of base detail but they dont function or animate well like polygons and are far more complex to use. In general there the best to use to represent a real life object but there draw backs make them extremely limited.

Polygons - we all know these they come in many forms triangles quads ngons etc there what gets rendered fact is the above methods at render time in every 3d app ever made are simplified down to triangles.

This applies to the UDT any info put into it in terms of 3d if it has to be created its gonna be done with polygons nurbs etc. This is nothing new final renders for lighting in Maya already do this. but the meshes themselves are still triangulated.

for those that hate walls of text read below

This tech is nothing new wont effect games and probably wont see the light of day anytime soon its basically a pipedream unless every major tech giant agrees to promote it aka Intel Amd Nvidia Microsoft Apple Autodesk, Pixologic, Adobe, yadda yadda
 
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#82
@crazyeyes: then let's get the ball rolling and have the giants recognise it. The construction of 3D models might not be faster, and this may be a style already used (in all honesty I don't know), but surely it has never been the case where such vast quantities of whether they be polygons or whatever could be rendered with the minimal load claimed by the maker of UDT, or else we'd be in graphic nirvana by now.

Edit: The petition sigs are coming in. Thanks guys, keep them coming, put a link in your sig, digg the petition page, like it on Facebook, anything to spread the word and get the numbers!:rockout:
 
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#83
Great, InferKNOX!!!! Let's get this moving and a shakin!
 
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#84
ill make the burgers...lets rock n roll
 

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#85
Yeah, I'm up for this. Let's roll! :D
 
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#86
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#87
Fix'd!
This is what I was looking for. It seems very likely that this is going be infringing on someone elses patent then. Shame.
I believe you're referring to System and method for parsing point-cloud data invented by Chang, Et al. That patent only pertains to parsing point cloud data, not culling point cloud data for mapping an x*y*z space into an x*y viewport.

After skimming some of the patents I think that the newest one is:
Method and apparatus for transforming point cloud data to volumetric data invented by Lee in 2007. Based on the abstract it appears to be a method of mapping point cloud data from one x*y*z space into another x*y*z space. (There are two such patents and I didn't bother to see why.)

The patent that looks the most like the one we're looking for is from 2005 and is Visualization and storage algorithms associated with processing point cloud data invented by Graham, et al.

The other patents I listed are methods of creating point cloud data models of 3D objects.

We can't be sure that Unlimited Detail Technology will be infringing any patents without more info.

This tech is nothing new wont effect games and probably wont see the light of day anytime soon its basically a pipedream unless every major tech giant agrees to promote it aka Intel Amd Nvidia Microsoft Apple Autodesk, Pixologic, Adobe, yadda yadda
As you said, the lack of software for designing/producing point cloud data models is clearly the biggest known impediment to this technology (but there are lots of unknowns).

On the other hand I don't really see how this technology needs direct support from AMD and Nvidia at this stage. I'm assuming that Unlimited Detail Technology could write a rendering engine using their unique point cloud algorithm in OpenCL.

@streetfighter 2: Sorry, I'm not too... ah... patent concious. Could you try search Euclideon and see if anything turns up? According to euclideon.com, it seems that they're based in Australia, think this could be the reason for lack of patents/support?
I tried searching for Euclideon and nothing related came up. The fact that they are Australian wouldn't prevent their patents from being searchable unless they didn't pay the extra few hundred dollars to make their patent international.
 
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#88
Probably it's just ray casting rendering, the same as in Outcast game.
afaik, outcast used voxel space rendering..
 
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#89
I believe you're referring to System and method for parsing point-cloud data invented by Chang, Et al. That patent only pertains to parsing point cloud data, not culling point cloud data for mapping an x*y*z space into an x*y viewport.

After skimming some of the patents I think that the newest one is:
Method and apparatus for transforming point cloud data to volumetric data invented by Lee in 2007. Based on the abstract it appears to be a method of mapping point cloud data from one x*y*z space into another x*y*z space. (There are two such patents and I didn't bother to see why.)

The patent that looks the most like the one we're looking for is from 2005 and is Visualization and storage algorithms associated with processing point cloud data invented by Graham, et al.

The other patents I listed are methods of creating point cloud data models of 3D objects.

We can't be sure that Unlimited Detail Technology will be infringing any patents without more info.


As you said, the lack of software for designing/producing point cloud data models is clearly the biggest known impediment to this technology (but there are lots of unknowns).

On the other hand I don't really see how this technology needs direct support from AMD and Nvidia at this stage. I'm assuming that Unlimited Detail Technology could write a rendering engine using their unique point cloud algorithm in OpenCL.


I tried searching for Euclideon and nothing related came up. The fact that they are Australian wouldn't prevent their patents from being searchable unless they didn't pay the extra few hundred dollars to make their patent international.
As far as I'm seeing, those point cloud patents seem quite distinct in description to the what UDTech sets out to achieve, so I don't think that it'd be infringing at this point.
My reference to them being Australian is that they may feel less concerned about patenting at the moment, or believe themselves be unique enough, ie, difficult to describe, not to feel the need for patenting until their technology is complete or near completion.
 
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#90
Petition Signed.

Imagine Minecraft with Unlimited Detail Technology... aoeirjaoijgoejgkjsego....
 

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#91
I think it would be a bad investment for AMD when they can't afford bad investments (unreleased processor architectures, weak economy, etc.). As such, I can't sign the petition.
 
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#92
I think it would be a bad investment for AMD when they can't afford bad investments (unreleased processor architectures, weak economy, etc.). As such, I can't sign the petition.
Risky yes, bad maybe.
 
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#93
I think it would be a bad investment for AMD when they can't afford bad investments (unreleased processor architectures, weak economy, etc.). As such, I can't sign the petition.
I honestly don't think AMD stands to suffer anything as long as they intergrate with it in an intelligent manner.

I've been in contact with Bruce Dell (the CEO in charge of UDTech) and he is very happy with our effort to promote support of UD.:)
I don't know quite how much he would be comfortable with me exposing of what he has said to me, so let me just say that this effort we're making is in the right direction and could make a significant difference in terms of helping the technology a reality for us all.
He also said that things have been progressing well in development and they have financial stability, so what we're out to achieve with this campaign is integration and acceptance in the industry.
 

Easy Rhino

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#94
sorry but those graphics look terrible. and the company behind this needs to fix up their website. it looks like a teenager put it together while high on marijuana.
 
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#95
sorry but those graphics look terrible. and the company behind this needs to fix up their website. it looks like a teenager put it together while high on marijuana.
As the description of the video states, they are not artists they are software developers, your lucky they even managed to make what they did. :laugh:
 

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#96
As the description of the video states, they are not artists they are software developers, your lucky they even managed to make what they did. :laugh:
sorry, this just looks like snake oil to me and the poor graphics dont help. if this was a serious vanture he would have spent some money actually putting everything together (including his terrible web site) before revealing it to the world. i am reading a lot of technical mumbo jumbo about this being rubbish and i have to agree. and the term "unlimited detail" is impossible since we don't have "unlimited" processing power. but i dont want to rehash old arguments. this post from this website really sums it up.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/03/10/unlimited-detail-wants-to-kill-3d-cards/

I call bullshit too.

Someone above said that you obviously can’t store unlimited points in a computer. No, no you cannot.

He suggested that the points were somehow stored in equations. Well, uhm, yes, how exactly?

Because that’s how polygons work. Equations and vectors signify surfaces, that the rasterizer can then populate with pixels by using textures.

I spent the past hour thinking about this. Let’s say we don’t want unlimited points in a scene. Let’s say, we want a billion. A billion points. And no, you can’t say you want these points to be generated by equations, because you used a _fucking laserscanner_ as he suggests in another video. How are you going to compress that? You’re not. You can’t. The best you can possibly do is to map your points straight to memory addresses, and then have each point defined in relation to a neighbor, which must be the previous point; even if you could do this, that’s _still_ 4-6 bits per point, depending on how clever you are.
Notice, that’s not even storing the colour with the point (this could, arguably, be done by using a texture, weird as that may sound, so that’s no different than normal, but it does count against the infinite detail idea)

So nomatter how you look at it, to get a billion unique points, you need at least 500 megabytes worth of storage in ram. And the storage algorithm I outlined above? it would be very hard to code a search algorithm for.

At the very most, with modern day computers, the upper limit would be 4 billion points. Not unlimited. Well…….

Supposing you mounted one of them SSD’s that cost 5000+$ on your pci express bus, I suppose you’d have the bandwidth to swap in points fast enough that there’s a theoretical upper bound for a pc maybe 1000 times higher. Presuming they wrote a magical logarithmic search function for what’s an otherwise linear data structure, which is what they clain to have done.

But a trillion points is mentioned in the video, and he goes on to say that this stuff has unlimited detail. That’s plainly nonsense. nomatter what or how you do this, they have not written something that supercedes previous experiments run on supercomputers.

And from the looks of the video, they don’t actually render unique points; they render the same points, but from different angles. That’s not unlimited detail, that’s unlimited sameness, and I can do that too. It’s called a for-loop, and it’s how they did the pyramid monkey thingies.

This is not a breakthrough, this is a small time company with a small time owner looking to make a quick buck by being sold to a major player.
 
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#97
The point has been missed my friend, the point is its NOT unlimited, it only displays the informations that is required, for example on my monitor it would be 1680x1050 "points"

Anything that I wouldn't be able to see is not rendered at all.

( this mean it adaptively changes the point data so as you draw closer to an object you can get as close as possible and the shape/texture would not be reduced as in current rendering methods, it can do this because everything else that was viewable before going close is now not being rendered I.E you could zoom in and see the texture of a fabric with vastly superiour quality and realism compared to current methods, you could zoom in on someones face and actually see the pores etc)



Fucking clever as bullshit and MORE than possible.
 

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#98
The point has been missed my friend, the point is its NOT unlimited, it only displays the informations that is required, for example on my monitor it would be 1680x1050 "points"

Anything that I wouldn't be able to see is not rendered at all.

( this mean it adaptively changes the point data so as you draw closer to an object you can get as close as possible and the shape/texture would not be reduced as in current rendering methods, it can do this because everything else that was viewable before going close is now not being rendered I.E you could zoom in and see the texture of a fabric with vastly superiour quality and realism compared to current methods, you could zoom in on someones face and actually see the pores etc)



Fucking clever as bullshit and MORE than possible.
well considering this came out of no where in March and there has not been a single update to their site nor any additional information reported in the media i would say this genuinely is a hoax.
 
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#99
well considering this came out of no where in March and there has not been a single update to their site nor any additional information reported in the media i would say this genuinely is a hoax.
Could be, won't deny that at all :laugh:

Just saying the tech is more doable than a lot of people seem to think.

My GPU can push 60+fps with 1 million particles on screen so even if this was done with coloured/shaded particles current gpus are not far off using particles to draw things.

( if ati gpuys supported glinterop I'd probably be above 200fps)

And this system doesn't even use real particles so would be even better.


I would need
1 764 000 particles or points to have a solid image using my monitor, not that farfetched at all : ]
 
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Anyway, if this was true, I've a feeling that this guy will be dead very soon because "Some people" will lose their business + billions of dollars.

I would expect to this technology in real world after 10 or 15 years from now...good stuff like this always take ages to hit the consumer market....
 
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