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UPS APC BR1000G-IN worth it?

Discussion in 'General Hardware' started by jayantfordreams, Aug 22, 2017.

  1. jayantfordreams

    jayantfordreams

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    I'm planning on buying 1KVA UPS because i need one, i'm kind'a pc enthusiast and
    My budget is : In general 6k INR, but If i see worth then money no matter.

    I came across indian brands 1 KVA models like which cost around:
    Prices in india are high due to 18% GST
    Luminous: 5k
    iBall: 4.9k
    intex: 4.8k
    microtek: 4.8k
    All having 1yr warrenty.

    On the other hand APC BR1000G-IN costs around:
    8400/- nehru place
    10500/- amazon flipkart snapdeal
    7450/- paytm (after 20% cashback)
    2yr warrenty all above.

    Also refurbished avialable on E-bay : for 4.5K and 3 Months warranty.

    Consider feature wise local indian brands are just giving basic on off, low power signal, replace battery lights and brick designs nothing fancy.
    While APC is having proper led which shows battery remaining minutes, percentage, load in watts and voltage i / o. Which is geeky and usefull for benchmarking stuff.


    Is it worth its price? Say if i buy via payTM 7450/-or from market, Which is technically 2x of what indian brands are offering. For 10k you can get 1.5 KVA on indian brands.

    Also i'm not sure of buying it online as people are getting refurbished pieces of it on a new purchase. Some shady sellers are selling them and coning people.

    Pls suggest if it's worth its price. I will definitely buy it. If not then pls suggest some good models with budget under 10K.

    Consider for this spec are i5 4460 , gtx 970, 2TB 7200 barracuda, 256gb bx100 ssd ,16gb ddr3, asus sata od drive , 2 case fans.
    650W seasonic gold certified psu.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  2. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright

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    Smart. I wish everyone realized all computers should be on a good UPS with AVR. It has nothing to do with being "geeky". Surge and spike protectors are little more than fancy and expensive extension cords as they do nothing for low voltage events like dips (opposite of spikes), sags (opposite of surges) or brownouts (long duration sags). And for excessive surges and spikes, they simply shut off power (if working properly), crashing your computer - never good. The argument often heard is "I don't need a UPS because we have stable power in my country". Bullfeathers!

    Any major appliance in your home can produce destructive anomalies. Refrigerators, water coolers, microwave ovens, toasters all send surges, spikes, dips and sags EVERY TIME they cycle on and off. Advanced, more expensive high-wattage appliance may attempt to suppress dumping such anomalies on the circuit – “IF” working properly. But low-tech cheap appliances will not. A cheap, $15, 1500W hair dryer made in some obscure factory in the backwoods of China, using parts from a similar factory upriver, comes to mind.

    I have the sibling model of that APC, the Back-UPS 1500VA and it works great, protecting my computer, my modem, router, 4-port switch and both my 24" monitors.

    To determine your UPS needs, I recommend using a PSU calculator, such as the eXtreme PSU Calculator Lite. While this excellent PSU calculator is for determining PSU sizes, it also calculates and recommends UPS sizes. According to your specs, even with CPU Utilization set to 100% and Utilization Time set to 16 hours per day, 1000VA is plenty and will easily support your network gear and 1 or 2 monitors too (as seen here).

    I am afraid I cannot comment on any other of your listed brands because APC is the only one you listed I am familiar with. I have also used, without problems, Cyberpower and Tripp Lite UPS.

    Note if the UPS says it has a communications ports (typically USB), they typically come with monitoring software. This is handy should you lose power when you are away as the software will save any open documents and "gracefully" exit running programs and shutdown Windows before the batteries run out. Without the communications connection, the UPS will just kill power when the batteries run down.
     
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  3. niko084

    niko084

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    I generally recommend buying a line interactive unit as it will balance your voltage. Basic units do not do this and only enable upon power loss. You can upgrade to a online ups but those get expensive and the benefits are little.

    The APC unit is a line interactive but there is one more thing to pay attention to here...
    Transfer Time
    8ms typical : 12ms maximum

    If in the case of power loss your system cannot maintain current through this period the system will shutdown. An 'online' UPS voids this as it's always active there is zero transfer time.

    I'm on the other side of the fence... Ideally yes every piece of electronics or your entire home would have online UPS protection but that's not very realistic, it's expensive, and frankly it would be terrible for the environment. How often does a brown out cause an OS to corrupt or hardware to fail? Less than 0.1% chance. Consider that the cost of a good UPS and maintaining it easily pays for a few power supplies. Also, in my case and many more (at least in the USA) renters/home owners insurance often covers computers from electrical damage with no deductible.

    I'm really not familiar with the other units you've listed, APC is a top brand.
    Others I've used with great success long term are CyberPower, Tripp Lite, and Eaton.
     
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  4. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright

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    Line interactive for this purpose (protecting computer and network equipment) is the same thing as AVR (automatic voltage regulation) which is what I recommended from the start. AVR is an "intelligent" feature of the UPS with AVR that constantly monitors the input voltage and will regulate it as necessary, to include boosting the voltage with the help of the batteries without switching over fully to the batteries.

    See that APC's features here and not how it not only protects from surges and spikes, but dips and sags too - exactly what the so called "line interactive" feature does.

    I am afraid there's a misunderstanding of how these work with PCs. The ATX Form Factor standard MANDATES all ATX power supplies to maintain a "hold up" voltage of at least 16ms. This means in the event of a power outage (or a simple drop below 90VAC), the power supply MUST maintain full output for at least 16ms. That is twice as long as that 8ms typical and still much faster than your eye can detect.

    And FTR, that UPS has a 10ms maximum transfer time.

    It is important not to get caught by "marketing hype". UPS with AVR like that APC have been used without problems for decades on computers. Line-interactive (or real-time) UPS have only recently come into play because their prices have come down. But just like the hype over "pure sine wave" UPS, it is just that "hype" or marketing "fluff" used by those UPS makers to entice users to their brand. The only devices that might need "pure sine wave" full time UPS are critical life support and health monitoring equipment used in Intensive Care Units and operating rooms.

    Like power supplies, there are cheap UPS that should be avoided. They may work great on less critical devices (like garage door openers or security lighting), but not on sensitive computer equipment.

    While this is true, renters/home owners insurance does NOT cover any of the costs to recover, recreate, or restore your data, nor does that insurance pay for all the inconvenience and lost productivity you may encounter.
     
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  5. ithehappy

    ithehappy

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    APC make solid UPS, simple. Probably the Indian companies offer good value too but I don't trust most of them. I didn't have that one, but an older model and it served me good for almost five years before battery died, won't buy another one just because I find UPS mostly pointless but if you are going for one I say go for the good one.
     
  6. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright

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    Regularly replacing the batteries is just normal routine maintenance. Most UPS use SLA (sealed lead-acid) batteries that only last 3 - 5 years. I have replaced the batteries in all my UPS at least once. My old APC SmartUPS 900 is over 25 years old and I have replaced those batteries at least 5 times. No big deal.

    Now some UPS - commonly rack mounted - must be returned to an authorized service center to have the batteries replaced. I never recommend buying those. Some of the more expensive UPS use Li-Ion batteries that typically last 10 years. But those UPS can be prohibitively expensive.

    I am sorry you feel a UPS is mostly pointless. As I noted before, they are not - even if your part of the world has a stable power grid. Any appliance in the house can interject destructive or at least disruptive anomalies on the line. And while rare these days, any sudden loss of power can totally corrupt a hard drive resulting in extensive data loss. If you keep regular and current backups, and you know how to do a full restore, this may be just a minor inconvenience. But for others, any data loss and/or unscheduled downtime - even if temporary - can be unacceptable at best, catastrophic at worst.
     
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  7. ithehappy

    ithehappy

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    Power cuts have become almost extinct where I live, yes, that's one of the reason, but also is that we have them inverter things for our home (them sine wave or whatever), so even after a power cut my system stays on, I then manually get plenty time to turn it off. So I am not sure whether or not the data corruption part applies, but yes, to maintain a stable voltage and to not have any fluctuation in it I think a UPS is still needed, but I am not gonna get one that's all I am saying, but I will still advise it for total security of your expensive system and have peace of mind.

    I know about the battery life cycle and all, I just mentioned it, it was no complaint LoL.
     
  8. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright

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    Yeah, homes that use inverters receive their "mains" power from a generator or even battery stored voltage. The inverter converts that DC to AC. When the "grid" fails, power is [typically] uninterrupted.

    So in terms of having power in the event of a power outage, a "uninterruptible" power supply is probably not needed. But the primary advantage to a good UPS with AVR is the AVR - the "line interactive" or "automatic" voltage regulation a good UPS with AVR provides. Back-up power during a full outage is just a bonus.

    This risk of data corruption occurs any time there is a sudden power loss, system freeze, or unexpected computer shutdown. If Windows is not properly or "gracefully" shutdown, many critical system files (and user documents) are left open and many temporary files are left on the disk. These can become corrupted resulting in lost data, or even an unbootable computer. :(
    Okay. I mentioned that batteries need to be regularly replaced because I have seen cases where users assumed and were complaining they needed to replace the entire UPS just because the batteries expired. That's just not true.
     
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  9. ithehappy

    ithehappy

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    LoL of course that's not true, only buying batteries are enough, obviously really uninformed users. After mine expired I immediately emailed APC and got reply from Schneider Electric with a quotation for the battery, the price of it was half of what I bought the UPS for, that was more than OK with me, but I simply started to hate mine, as it made a really terrible fan noise when the UPS was on. I simply don't like extra sounds! I have plan to upgrade late 2018 and it will be a fairly expensive setup, so I think I might go for an upgraded model of APC UPS then, which will consume less power and obviously be SILENT. Otherwise no not really but that's just me based on my preferences.
     
  10. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright

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    Not sure what you mean by "consume less power". Even budget UPS are very efficient. The amount of energy they use is more dependent on the battery requirements than anything else. If the batteries don't need charging, the UPS barely uses any energy. And when on battery, the UPS isn't pulling anything from the wall and the conversion rate from DC to AC is very efficient.

    In fact, the more advanced UPS may consume more energy than a budget UPS because the more advanced UPS will be doing more extensive monitoring and "line-interactive" regulation to attenuate or boost the voltage as needed based on line fluctuations.

    For example, look at these two graphs.

    APC Back-UPS ES 8 550VA

    APC Back-UPS Pro BX1000M 1000VA with AVR

    If you hover over the graphs at various load rates, you will see the less expense, less sophisticated 550VA UPS is more efficient. Now we are talking 1/10ths of 1% and into the upper 90s percentiles so hardly significant, regardless.
     
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  11. jayantfordreams

    jayantfordreams

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    cool
     
  12. jayantfordreams

    jayantfordreams

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    Thanks guys.

    I have used indian brands UPS back in 2004-2008 and my experience was very bad.
    Just for the 1/2 price i was considering them now.

    I also had an online Inverter / UPS that worked well for me for years, but i moved to a newer place now and power backup here is kind'a central say, for entire block, which is not meant for PCs anyways and can't move that Inverter just for my PC.

    Anyways, if someone like to know, the deal with "indian brands" is that "UPS will and surely die [ups+batteries] after 1 year of use". Seller will assure you that. They are meant to work only for a year or less and 1yr warranty is for namesake. There's no shame in buying that because they are not cheating on you and you know you have to buy another later on. Seller is just selling because market is bad and they have no other option.

    Thanks, guys i see worth buying APC UPS now, and i just bought it via PayTM (online) costs me about $115.99 ($145.99 - $30) (20% cashback), I will update this thread when it will arrive.
    Sorry, if i wrote bad english and for using the word "fancy". I never mean it that way.

    You all guys are great.

    Kudos!!.
     
  13. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright

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    I see no problem with the way you used "fancy".

    As for UPS dying after 1 year of use, I sure don't see why unless they are just that cheaply made and in that case, I would not buy a cheap one. A "good" UPS should be able to tolerate and protect itself from power line anomalies - even if it means it will completely shut down. And the batteries, even if abused by constant use, should still last 3 years as long as they are not allowed to overheat in a room with too high an ambient temp with no ventilation. If UPS are expected to last only a year, then it should be the same for TVs, refrigerators, computers, all other electronics that are sensitive to unstable and irregular power.
    The seller may not be cheating you, but the maker sure seems to be. And IMO, sellers should know their products so frankly, it seems the sellers are just out to get you to buy new just so they can make more money, not so they can have a happy and loyal customer.
     
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  14. jayantfordreams

    jayantfordreams

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    Ok i got it, delivered and packaging says it was manufactured in Dec 2016. means roughly 8 months old. Not damaged at all and i was able to register warranty.
    Via Its Software i was able to see last battery replaced date was 12-Dec-2016. Same date mentioned on the tester approved slip it came with.

    The results i observed were quite different and sad though.

    On the box it says:
    ~ 40 watt usage should run for 139 Mins [Entry level PC with 20" LCD Monitor].
    ~ 119 watt usage should run for 50 Mins [Mid Range PC with 20" LCD Monitor + Notebook PC, Modem+Router].
    ~ 240 watt usage should run for 23 Mins [Gaming / Performance PC with 24" LCD Monitor+Speakers+|Modem+Router].

    I let this UPS charge 1st for about 8*-9 hrs. I was amazed to see the wattage sensitivity on this device.
    On Idle my system Idle hovers around 50-60 watts.
    On Normal usage like browsing etc. 70-80 watts and
    On gaming 170-230 watts depending on game.

    So, i connected my system[cpu], monitor and router[no speaker] put it on UPS mode.
    A point to note just after [seconds] switching to UPS , it looses 1 bar of battery immediately and shows 80 % battery remaining.

    i put my System on power saver mode and started a movie and let it run. Screen brightness set to 25% only, no speakers but headphones attached to monitor, UPS showing 72 watts max and 70 watts avg power usage and 56 mins remaining.

    Actual Run time Observed:

    ~ 55 watt usage [idle+adsl router] showing 60 Mins but died in 40 mins. [SYSTEM ON POWER SAVER]
    ~ 60-70 watt usage[watching a movie with headphones+adsl router] showing 55 Mins but died in 33 mins.[SYSTEM ON POWER SAVER]
    ~ 170 - 220 watts gaming shows 15 min bit in 7-10 min or i guess it was lesser it died in 7mins. [SYSTEM ON HIGH PERFORMANCE]

    Before move on to some conclusion and say anything about these results, i would like you guys to put a conclusion whether i should to keep it or return it.
    So, what you guys say?
     
  15. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright

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    First, I would give it couple days to get settled in, and ensure a full charge. But also, IMO the run time is the least significant specification of a decent UPS with AVR. The AVR is the top advantage to using a good UPS. The batteries need to provide "boost" when needed (which is typically required in very short bursts so they can usually do this all day long). And the batteries need to provide backup power during a full outage long enough so you can save any open documents you have open, exit running program, shutdown Windows, then "gracefully" power off the computer.

    If you are looking for extended run times during a power outage, get a backup generator.
     
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  16. jayantfordreams

    jayantfordreams

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    Trust me i let it charge for few days not just 8-9 hours, before even starting any tests. And on gaming it won't even lasts for 5 Mins. I'm kin'da Dissappointed.
     
  17. R-T-B

    R-T-B

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    Our PSU reviewer here at TPU has found that severely ignored in several major brands, though. Do not count on it.
     
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  18. Bill_Bright

    Bill_Bright

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    I know! And it is sad.

    I don't believe the makers "ignore" this critical requirement, I think they keep their fingers crossed and hope reviewers don't understand it, or ignore it (as most do :(). And they hope potential buyers are unaware of it, or don't understand it. So the makers hope those users will ignore it, or assume they just don't do their home work.

    This is why I always say to do your homework before buying. And don't go by just one review site either since not all thoroughly test supplies. In fact, most don't, sadly, test for hold-up time. It takes considerable know-how and a well equipped/well funded testing facility to properly and thoroughly test a PSU.

    Frankly, I wish review sites like TPU would put more weight on that critical requirement when reviewing power supplies. If a PSU fails to meet minimum requirement hold-up times, it should not, IMO, receive a passing or good score or become a recommended supply.

    Still, most of the supplies that get a passing grade from the various review sites in spite of poor hold-up times still maintain output for at least 10ms. And most "good" UPS have a typical response or cut-over time of 8ms or less. So while cutting that pretty thin, a "good" UPS "should" still react in time.
    Then you likely need a bigger UPS - like a 1300 or 1500VA. But again, the purpose of any good UPS is not so you can continue playing a game indefinitely. The purpose of any good UPS is (1) to protect your equipment from damaging power anomalies and (2) to give you the time necessary to "gracefully" save your work and properly shutdown your computer. And even 5 minutes is plenty of time for that.

    It appears the BR1000G uses two 12V7.5AhF2 batteries (cells) to make up its battery. When it comes time to replace the batteries (or if you don't care about the warranty, you can do it now) you can replace them with 12V9AhF2 batteries. This will increase the VA capability of the UPS while on battery and thus will increase your run times. As long as the voltage is the same, you can use a battery with a higher amp-hour (Ah) rating. F2 refers to the connector type/size. See F1 vs F2.

    These batteries are suppose to have the same physical dimensions, but sadly, some are not quite and often the battery compartments in UPS are so tight, even a single millimeter difference will be too much to fit. So measure the width, length and height of one of the batteries (without that center piece) and ensure your replacements are the same (or smaller). This is particularly important when buying batteries with bigger Ah ratings.

    If you note the OEM batteries, as seen here, they (the two cells) come already strapped. You will have to peel off that top label and note how the two cells are oriented for "polarity" (+ and -). Then remove and save that center plastic piece. There will also be a small jumper wire connecting the plus (+) terminal of one battery to the negative (-) terminal of the other battery. Save that jumper too. With the two new cells properly oriented, assemble your new battery with the center piece and jumper the same way, then insert it into your UPS.

    Just for understanding, note a "battery" is made up of one or more "cells". A cell can be a whole battery. For example, a flashlight (torch or torchlight in some parts of the world) can use 3 AAA batteries but when inserted in the flashlight, the 3 AAA batteries become 1 battery (electronically speaking). So cells are batteries that when connected together make 1 bigger battery.

    So your UPS battery is made up of 2 cells, and each cell is one battery (that actually has several internal cells). And when your 2 cells are strapped together, they become one battery inside your UPS. Clear as mud, huh? ;)
     
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