UPS choice...

[johnspack]

In the area where we are, we get constant power outages... and not just outages, but little glitches.. for like half a second. It's enough to make my computer reboot, but stop at the boot menu, until I tell it to continue.
Does this to all 3 computers in the house, the other 2 are haswell boxes. This has been happening to me for years in this area, I've lost a half dozen routers, switches ect, killed by this sh*t. Probably a few computers too.
Now it seems my almost new mkii dac has a damaged mic port. We suffered a series of power outages, and then quick glitches. I'm tired of this. I want a usp, I don't want to pay more than 200 can as I'm on a fixed income.
I see the higher wattage ones are hundreds of dollars, so I'll have to settle for a few minutes to power down I guess. Want to stick to 200can I guess because I'm looking at "pure sine wave" versions. This would be the preferred for stability in a system, right?

 

[eidairaman1]

I'm wondering if you could look for them based upon response time have you looked at your breaker box and how old is it?

 

[John Naylor]

Unfortunately, the the type of systems we use, our wattage is up there and that warrats a 1500 VA unit ... at that size, anything under $300 is a waste of T, M & E. we used to be strictly an APC shop but since they were boaugfht by Schneider Electric, they on the 'no buy" list. The CyberPower PFC Sinewave Series OR1500PFCLCD 1500 VA. Run time is a factor of battery capacity and you can easily determine that by weight, A 50 pounder lasts longer than a 25 pounder.

For under $200 ... look at this one
CyberPower 1325 VA Pure Sine Wave UPS GX1325U

But if ya can swing $235 and have a 520 watt PSU,, the CyberPower Sinewave PR750LCD 750 VA would be my choice.

 

[johnspack]

Our box is friggin old, that's all I know. And our substation can glitch in any thunderstorm. Actually a really windy day can do it.
Didn't even think of response time either arg. I know our glitches have happened in less than .5 secs, but my box reboots...
Edit: was looking at the cyberpower 1325... its over 200can here
Dam, I really should be looking at 1500, shouldn't I.....
This must be what I want? Prob 260-270can delivered: https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA9H53HB6478&cm_re=ups-_-42-102-134-_-Product

 

[eidairaman1]

Our box is friggin old, that's all I know. And our substation can glitch in any thunderstorm. Actually a really windy day can do it.
Didn't even think of response time either arg. I know our glitches have happened in less than .5 secs, but my box reboots...
Edit: was looking at the cyberpower 1325... its over 200can here
Dam, I really should be looking at 1500, shouldn't I.....

Heres some insight
http://www.griffinelectric.com/electrical-safety/ 15-20 years panels should be replaced, busbars discolored or pitting.

 

[John Naylor]

Our box is friggin old, that's all I know. And our substation can glitch in any thunderstorm. Actually a really windy day can do it.
Didn't even think of response time either arg. I know our glitches have happened in less than .5 secs, but my box reboots...
Edit: was looking at the cyberpower 1325... its over 200can here
Dam, I really should be looking at 1500, shouldn't I.....

I'd say come viist south of the border and grab it but the cost of extra gas for the 50 pounds in the trunk would eat up the savings

 

[Hood]

You shouldn't need one better than the one John Naylor linked above. As you mentioned, most of these outages were half-second blips, just enough to shut your PC down. Any UPS rated to your PSU wattage will cover the blips. For longer outages, you save your work or game, takes 20-30 seconds, and shut it down (you can't afford a battery big enough to keep running more than 10 minutes anyway, unless it's a Tesla Powerwall). I had dodgy power for years at my old place.

 

[johnspack]

I'm eyeballing the 1000va sinewave version for 159can... I may pull the trigger, that's all I really need....
Yep, did it. I know it's only a few minutes, but dam I'm tired of losing sh*t.....

 

[Bill_Bright]

because I'm looking at "pure sine wave" versions. This would be the preferred for stability in a system, right?

There is a lot of "marketing" hype about "pure" sine wave output UPS. Don't fall for it! That's all it is, marketing hype by those companies who make pure sine wave UPS trying to take the market share away from APC.

Any 1/2 way decent AC/DC power supply can handle the "stepped sine wave" or "stepped approximation" waveform just fine. They have for the last 30 years with no problems so there is no reason to believe the much more reliable and robust power supplies of today can't either. They are much more capable at handling power line anomalies than PSUs of yesteryear.

And that's not just computer PSUs, but the power supplies for our modems, routers, switches, monitors and more. The only time you really need a "pure" sine wave output UPS is when used to support highly "sensitive" health monitoring and life support equipment as found in hospital intensive care units.

All computer and networking devices use DC voltages. It is actually easier to make a clean DC voltage converted from a stepped approximation sine wave than it is from a pure (round tops) sine wave because less filtering is required.

Do not forget that 99% of the time, our UPS is not "on-line". That is, it is not acting as a battery backup, except during a total power outage. It is just "in-line" acting as a sophisticated "automatic voltage regulator" (AVR). It is really for the AVR that we need a "good" UPS. Backup power during a full power outage is just the icing on the cake. But even then, power supplies do just fine with stepped approximation outputs.

BTW, a surge and spike protector is little more than a fancy and expensive extension cord as they do absolutely nothing for abnormal low voltage events like dips (opposite of spikes) and sags (opposite of surges), or long duration sags (brownouts) - any of which can cause your electronics to suddenly stop, resulting in possible corruption. And for "extreme" surges and spikes, a surge and spike protector simply kills power (if working properly) to your components. That's hardly good for your computer, drives, or data.

The only reason pure sine wave UPSs have gotten a lot of attention lately is because the prices have FINALLY come down so they are within reach. That and aggressive marketing from makers of such UPS.

Since they have come way down in price in recent years, they have become competitive. So if you find one and the price is right, go for it. I don't have anything against them. Just don't believe you need it, or that it is better for your connected devices.

FTR, I live in Tornado Alley where we frequently have severe weather. Total power outages are not everyday, but they are not rare either - especially in my 100 year old neighborhood where the utilities are not buried. I have a "good" UPS with AVR on all my computers in the house, and my home theater audio equipment and big screen TV. I also have one on my garage door opener and even one in the bedroom for the alarm clock and electric blanket! And none are pure sine wave.

I am not saying don't get a pure sine wave UPS. I am just saying if you find a good price on a good stepped approximation UPS, go for it.

I have no problem with APC. Schneider Electronics bought them out 12 years ago. They still make good UPS. I know this is a little over your budget, but the 1300VA APC is a very nice UPS and will easily support your computer, all your networking, and even a large LCD monitor.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

We've discussed this before...
passive PFC (low efficiency power supply), stepped sine wave is okay
active PFC (high efficiency power supply), pure sine wave highly recommended

Using an active PFC power supply with a stepped sine wave or, heaven forbid, square wave UPS is begging the power supply to go into fault protection mode.


I don't know if 1000VA will be enough for you but it's better than nothing.

 

[FireFox]

I have no problem with APC.

Me neither, i have an APC Smart-UPS 3000VA LCD, USB/seriell (SMT3000I), good thing is that it is a great UPS, the bad thing is that since i moved it is in the basement

Note: APC is very popular here, all my Power strip are APC

 

[newtekie1]

Seriously, if you are on a budget, get a UPS that is rated to handle the load, even if that means getting a simulated sine wave unit instead of a true sine wave.

I'm eyeballing the 1000va sinewave version for 159can... I may pull the trigger, that's all I really need....
Yep, did it. I know it's only a few minutes, but dam I'm tired of losing sh*t.....

That's a good unit, especially if it is only needed for very quick drops in power. I would also recommend a smaller unit just to run all your networking equipment and other small stuff off of though.

I grabbed one of these guys just to run my modem, router, and network switch: https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842301670

We've discussed this before...
passive PFC (low efficiency power supply), stepped sine wave is okay
active PFC (high efficiency power supply), pure sine wave highly recommended

Using an active PFC power supply with a stepped sine wave or, heaven forbid, square wave UPS is begging the power supply to go into fault protection mode.

And yet, we have someone that literally designs power supplies for a living(and reviews them) saying "I haven't been able to figure out what a square or simulated sine wave would be bad for PFC circuits" and recommending not to waste money on pure sine wave UPSs.

 

[Gasaraki]

I'm eyeballing the 1000va sinewave version for 159can... I may pull the trigger, that's all I really need....
Yep, did it. I know it's only a few minutes, but dam I'm tired of losing sh*t.....

Cyberpower makes AVR UPSes at reasonable prices.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Using an active PFC power supply with a stepped sine wave or, heaven forbid, square wave UPS is begging the power supply to go into fault protection mode.

No its not, not with a quality stepped sine wave UPS and quality PSU.

I say again, stepped approximation sine wave supplies have been used for decades without problems, with non-PFC supplies, passive PFC supplies, and with active PFC supplies. All 6 computers in this house are currently run off of stepped approximation sine wave UPS from APC, Cyberpower and one from Tripp Lite with no problems. As I said, I live in Tornado Alley and have since the Air Force sent me here in 1986. I know what flaky grid power is about. And I supported mission critical Air Traffic Control radio communications systems, and highly sensitive DoD and State Department secure communications systems. APC approximated sine wave UPS support them all just fine during power outages (until the facility back up generators kick in). And FTR, they all use active PFC switching PSUs.

It is just nonsense to believe APC, Cyberpower, Tripp-Lite, Microtek, Belkin and other companies would produce stepped approximation (or simulated) sine wave UPS, then market them to be used with computer systems, if those UPS would not properly protect and support today's computer power supplies.

Do NOT fall for the marketing hype - that is all it is. Now if you are going to buy a $50 UPS and plug in a $30 power supply, then you are begging for trouble. But no one is recommending that. It is important to choose a quality power supply and a quality UPS of sufficient size to easily handle the loads and potential "inrush" current demands of the active PFC supplies connected to it. APC recommends the UPS be sized at least 1.25 x the maximum demand of the connected equipment. So if the computer, network gear, and monitor all need a maximum of 500W, that would be 500 x 1.25 = 625W. Since most UPSs are rated in VA (volt amps), the conversion formula is:

W = VA x PF

If PF (power factor) is not otherwise specified, the generally accepted value is .8 so: 625 = VA x .8 or 781.25VA. For that, I would get at least a 850VA UPS.

Also, do not lump square wave output UPS with stepped approximation sine wave UPS. They are not the same thing. No one is suggesting any one use a square wave UPS. As seen below, there is a HUGE difference. The regulation circuits in any 1/2 way decent power supply is fully capable of smoothing out the "steps" in a stepped sine wave.

Still refuse to accept the facts? Then read what Seasonic and EVGA say about their power supplies:

Seasonic FAQ

What type of UPS does Seasonic recommend?

Seasonic recommends a UPS with a pure sinewave output; however, a high quality simulated sinewave UPS from a reputable manufacturer could also be a possible solution to be used with our power supplies.

EVGA Knowledgebase

Question / Issue
Do EVGA Power Supplies support UPS backup devices that support Line-Interactive AVR UPS which uses a simulated/artificial sine wave?

Answer / Solution Yes, all EVGA power supplies support UPS backup devices.
In regards to this concern, the high voltage coming from a UPS backup device may damage the PSU.
1. EVGA power supplies that support active PFC, and the IC can sense the voltage of main capacitor. -If the voltage is too high(over 380V), the PFC will be protected.
2. The main capacitor can stand higher voltage around 420V(more than the voltage comes from UPS)

And don't forget that waveform output only factors in when the UPS is supplying backup power - which typically is just for a few seconds at a time. Looking at my logs, my the 1500VA APC UPS supporting this computer, all my network gear and both my 24" LCD monitors has kicked in just 4 times in the last 4 weeks for a total of 27 seconds. That said, I have approximately 61 minutes of run time available should we have a full outage - though realistically, all you typically need is a few minutes - just to finish typing your sentence, saving your open documents, closing your open programs, and "gracefully" shut down Windows. If my computer and monitors are asleep when there is a power outage, I typically have around 3 1/2 hours of run time available to keep my wireless network alive and all my DHCP assigned IP addresses from shifting.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I say again, stepped approximation sine wave supplies have been used for decades without problems, with non-PFC supplies, passive PFC supplies, and with active PFC supplies.

90%+ efficient PSUs didn't exist "decades" ago.

Seasonic recommends a UPS with a pure sinewave output; however, a high quality simulated sinewave UPS from a reputable manufacturer could also be a possible solution to be used with our power supplies.

Pretty much what I said, no? You're gambling with the "high quality" aspect of a UPS.

 

[Bill_Bright]

90%+ efficient PSUs didn't exist "decades" ago.

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything here. That just means for every 100W pulled from the wall, 10 is lost in the form of heat. That has nothing to do with PFC and how it affects a PSU in terms of the waveform from an UPS affecting the stability of the power supply, or the supply's output quality, or the life of the PSU.

Pretty much what I said, no? You're gambling with the "high quality" aspect of a UPS.

It is not at all what you said. Gambling? No. Do you buy cheap, generic unbranded power supplies? I suspect not. Same goes with uninterruptible power supplies - don't buy cheap, generic, unbranded UPS. That does not mean you need to spend $400 for an UPS. But you should not pay $50 either.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Yes, it does, in order to get that level of efficiency, PSUs need stable input and a lot of sensitive circuitry. Seasonic recommended pure sine for a reason: it's almost indistinguishable from mains AC.

I paid about $150 for each of my four 1350VA units. No hardware nor data lost.

 

[Jetster]

I use the Cyber Power 1300 VA 810 W
It wasn't that much and it works for one PC, router, modem. It will shut it down safely if the power is off more then 5 min

I think it was like $150

 

[Bill_Bright]

Yes, it does, in order to get that level of efficiency, UPSs need stable input and a lot of sensitive circuitry.

Did you mean PSUs? Either way, it does not matter. You are implying today's PSUs are less capable of dealing with dirty input power than those of yesteryear. Not true - at least not with quality PSUs. If you meant UPS, of course, any good UPS has very sensitive circuitry. It has to in order to react to anomalies in time. So do PSUs. But even FOR YEARS PSUS have had to maintain good regulation in dealing with anomalies including a "hold up" time of at least 17ms - plenty of time for any decent UPS to react in time.

So this notion that all of sudden, in the last couple years pure sine wave UPSs are now needed is just pure marketing nonsense/hype.

Seasonic recommended pure sine for a reason: it's almost indistinguishable from mains AC.

Convenient how you left out the second part. They also said "a high quality simulated sinewave UPS from a reputable manufacturer could also be a possible solution to be used with our power supplies." They said that for a reason too - because they work just fine.

I paid about $150 for each of my four 1350VA units. No hardware nor data lost.

And I paid about that for my 1500VA APC units. No hardware nor data lost.

As I said above, the only reason pure sine wave UPS are getting so much hype lately is because the prices have finally dropped. If you can find a pure sine wave UPS for a good price, go for it. But don't think for a second one is necessary for today's electronics. It just isn't. So if you can get a good stepped approximation UPS with AVR, don't hesitate to buy it either.

And once again, the ONLY time you are actually running off the UPS is during a total power outage. And the purpose for the battery backup side of an UPS is to give you time to save your open files and shutdown Windows gracefully. If you want to keep playing your games for a couple hours, get a backup generator.

99.99% of the time, the primary advantage for a good UPS with AVR is the AVR - automatic voltage regulation - and that output is sinewave, whether a pure sinewave UPS, or stepped approximation.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

So this notion that all of sudden, in the last couple years pure sine wave UPSs are now needed is just pure marketing nonsense/hype.

Except that the difference is easily evidenced on an oscilloscope.

In theory, AC to DC power supply efficiency plummets (much greater heat generation when the load is equal) when subjected to a simulated sine wave compared to a pure sine wave. I don't know of anyone that actually tested the theory though. It has been proven with microwaves at least.

 

[AsRock]

Unfortunately, the the type of systems we use, our wattage is up there and that warrats a 1500 VA unit ... at that size, anything under $300 is a waste of T, M & E. we used to be strictly an APC shop but since they were boaugfht by Schneider Electric, they on the 'no buy" list. The CyberPower PFC Sinewave Series OR1500PFCLCD 1500 VA. Run time is a factor of battery capacity and you can easily determine that by weight, A 50 pounder lasts longer than a 25 pounder.

For under $200 ... look at this one
CyberPower 1325 VA Pure Sine Wave UPS GX1325U

But if ya can swing $235 and have a 520 watt PSU,, the CyberPower Sinewave PR750LCD 750 VA would be my choice.

And yet my Cyberpower 1500VA has done more than it's job over the last 6-7 years.

This is the newer version, although remember these are only there to give you enough time to shutdown correctly and not continuesly run a PC(s).
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod..._re=cyberpowerr_1500va-_-42-102-231-_-Product

Whoops, dam Canada they are real exspenive i guess it's due to them being heavy. Still i would put the extra to it due to personal experience. Or at least give Cyberpower a good look though.

Maybe with 3 PC's you should really be investing in more than one.

 

[R-T-B]

If you don't need an active shutdown, this is a unit I Have deployed widely that is pretty affordable. It's only fault is the HID/USB connection controller is buggy and pretty much unusable, and TRIPP LITE hasn't fixed it to date (hence lowering it's market value). It is however a very solid "dumb UPS":

https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-L...5711&sr=8-1&keywords=tripp+lite+smart1500lcdt

It has AVR, buck/boost, and really fast switchover. Best luck with these units by far. Be aware the front LCD on them is bright though, if bothered by such things.

EDIT: The USB issue may even be fixed now, it was a big deal circa January 2017. But it's been more than a year for a hardware revision, and no new reviews mention it.

 

[Bill_Bright]

So this notion that all of sudden, in the last couple years pure sine wave UPSs are now needed is just pure marketing nonsense/hype.

Except that the difference is easily evidenced on an oscilloscope.

Bull feathers! Come on! Who are you trying to kid? Yourself, apparently as that video does NOT show that pure sine wave UPS are now, suddenly needed, nor does your video show that stepped approximation UPS can't do their jobs. You are just trying to obfuscate the issue with more hype and nonsense!

That video merely shows that UPS outputs a sine wave output. So what? No one claimed otherwise. Nobody said there was no difference between stepped and pure either. In fact, I included an image showing the difference!

So your point is pointless here. And really? A light bulb? Short of a simple resistor, that's about the most stable, constant load you can put on a power supply. All that tests is the unit cut-over to battery. Big deal. Any UPS can do that.

The "evidence" is in the fact today's active PFC switching power supplies connected to stepped approximation UPSs are still working just fine, as are the computers, monitors, and network gear connected too.

So I say it again, "this notion that all of sudden, in the last couple years pure sine wave UPSs are now needed is just pure marketing nonsense/hype." Modern passive and active PFC power supplies are fully capable of being supported by a good quality, stepped approximation UPS with no evidence whatsoever they cannot - just as Seasonic and EVGA (two of the most regarded PSU makers) noted.

So please stop trying to prove to us otherwise with nonsensical and non-applicable videos that prove nothing. I recommend if you believe APC, Seasonic and EVGA are wrong, you write to them and tell them they are wrong. If they change their documentation, please let us know.

 

[John Naylor]

There is a lot of "marketing" hype about "pure" sine wave output UPS. Don't fall for it! That's all it is, marketing hype by those companies who make pure sine wave UPS trying to take the market share away from APC.

Have to be careful with universal statements, I have helped users who have run into this a half dozen times over the years There's an online mindset that because "it doesn't happen to me", the OP must be imagining things. My experience says otherwise. It **does** matter what kind of PSU you have. ... who makes it... and what it costs.

https://www.dougv.com/2010/03/active-pfc-enabled-psus-are-not-compatable-with-most-low-end-ups/

BTW, APC was one of the very first to "go big" on pure since wave... and that's quite clearly evidenced above in the 2010 article. The APC Smart UPS worked fine, the APC Back UPS did not. These are both APC products so it's clearly not the brand or sime imagined hidden agenda, but the difference in how they were made .. one APC unit (the one that worked) was pure sine wave and one APC unit (the one that didn't) was not. So the "out to get APC" thing just doesn't bear up. Here's 18 Pure Sine Wave offerings from APC.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...sine wave&bop=And&PageSize=36&order=BESTMATCH

The problem w/ APC was that, since Schneider Electric took over anout 10 years ago, their products have tanked ... badly. Before that, they were the king of the industry. Tho of late, they appear to be recognizing that the market has noticed and are taking steps to restore some of that old shine. I have to say I'm still a bit shy after several disappointments in past years.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

EVGA is a rebrander. Most recent JonnyGuru reviewed was a SuperFlower unit:
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story2&reid=530

Seasonic is an OEM, they make 94% efficient products, and they recommend pure sine over anything else. What does that tell you?

Put bluntly: you're not going to have problems with a pure sine UPS unless the UPS is defective. Anything less than pure sine, you're rolling a dice when it switches to battery operation.