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Valve Claims Steam Deck Can Run Entire Steam Library Within Performance Target

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... where to start? Sigh.

Let's see:
  • Laptops today are not made like laptops in 2006 or 2012. As I said, there are no socketed mobile CPUs. Zero. Intel doesn't make any, AMD doesn't make any. Period. They're all soldered. Unless you're buying a giant DTR """laptop""" using desktop CPUs, you're not getting the option to upgrade your CPU. Period. Enterprise/commercial laptops are exactly the same.
  • Given that the storage in the Steam Deck is upgradeable (you'll likely find higher capacity m.2 2230 drives in the future, and faster microSD cards too), that point is moot.
  • Your estimation of the longevity of the Steam Deck is ... odd. If it can play a huge library of games now, it will be able to play the same games or any games equally demanding for as long as the device works. That is bound to be more than three years. Obviously it won't be playing AAA games five or ten years from now, but neither will any gaming laptop at any quality setting that the owner will deem good enough considering its price and specs. Or desktop GPUs, really. There's no way to future proof against increasing GPU demands in future games.
  • Given how much better the build quality of most devices is these days (those 2006 HPs you mentioned were garbage - I know, I used to sell them, and I've seen too many cracked and broken ones to count) I'd be surprised if this didn't last several decades if treated well. The battery will obviously wear out, and you'd need to clean the fan, but that's par for the course for any laptop.
  • An argument for increased repairability and upgradeability in laptops in general is not especially applicable towards this device in particular. Why? Because unlike the Apples, Dells and others of the world, this actually does something useful with its density. I really wish all laptops were as upgradeable as the Framework laptop, but that's not the world we live in, at least not yet. But that's not an argument against the usefulness, performance or longevity of the Steam Deck in particular, but a critique of the industry overall.
  • Those upgradeable €400 laptops you're speaking of - what was the gaming experience like? Yeah, no, even at their time they were nowhere close to the Steam Deck's purported performance today.
  • No, laptops have never used "mini PCIe" GPUs. They have used MXM ones, but most have had the GPU integrated onto the motherboard. And MXM GPUs have never been freely sold on the open market, and upgradeability has been essentially a pipe dream. A few manufacturers have sold GPU upgrades for their laptops for a few years, but it's been a while since I've seen that happen, and they were inevitably incredibly expensive.
  • So you're actually positing a 3 kilogram 17.3" laptop as a relevant alternative to a 600g handheld? I mean, it's clear that you don't understand the use case for a handheld, but come on! On top of that, that's a laptop with a 5-year-old GPU, a 3-year-old CPU (which is likely slower than the 4c8t Zen2 chip in the Steam Deck even at 15W vs. 35W), half the memory at a much slower speed, etc... like, what are you trying to say here? Yes, you can get good value in a bigger laptop if a bigger laptop is what you want. But it won't be a tiny, use-anywhere handheld, nor will it sip power, fit easily in your hands, etc. Different types of products have different use cases.
  • Saying "the post was about laptops and their longevity, not about their gaming capabilities" in a thread that is about a gaming device is .... very, very odd. I mean, if you want a laptop and not a handheld gaming PC, go buy a laptop. Is anyone stopping you? Is the existence of the Steam Deck somehow problematic for people who just want a day-to-day laptop? Of course not. This whole "laptop longevity" discussion is a massive side track with little to no relevance to this topic.
Exactly, and succinctly I don't have the eloquence you do but heartily agree with all of it.
 
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So crack on, show me a laptop that's sub 700£ and upgradable?!.
There aren't anymore.

Edit, a Clevo with replaceable shit ram and adequate ssd replaceability = upgradeable,, yet next generation LPddr5 memory anyway and replaceable ssd isn't upgradable?! It's also 100£ more expensive , massive, probably not much more GPU grunt and for gaming totally balls ergonomics, but yeh , no.
Dude GTX 1060 wipes floor with iGPUs. It's times faster than anything integrated. Completely different league. And how does laptop have poor ergonomics? You don't hold it like handheld to do anything. You put it on table to use it.


A laptop is not this though is it, a laptop is not an ultra portable gaming device, it's a general purpose computer, this isn't that, I own a decent gaming laptop, yet this will be used as much as that, why, because it's significantly more Portable and Will do what I require . ..
If Deck tries to be a PC, then it should be a proper PC. If it tries to be console, the nit should be a proper console. There's no need for something half-assed that doesn't work well as both.


my opinion differs from yours but I admit only a review will enlighten us to reality verses circular opinion spouting , meanwhile you think you will trump my opinion spouting what I think is irrelevant nonsense about upgrading and either future tech that's not out yet or a laptop from 2012?!! With no facts just opinion, your wasting mine and others time here going round in circles with the same stuff.
Why did you even reply about Deck? My original post was about laptops only, nothing about Deck. Don't like circular reasoning, then don't start circles yourself. As easy as that.

[*]Saying "the post was about laptops and their longevity, not about their gaming capabilities" in a thread that is about a gaming device is .... very, very odd. I mean, if you want a laptop and not a handheld gaming PC, go buy a laptop. Is anyone stopping you?
I don't know why Valantar started writing about laptops too and mentioned that they are not upgradable. They still are more upgradable. Maybe you can't change CPUs anymore, but you still can mess with storage, RAM, and possibly screen too (if they haven't switched to proprietary connectors). That's not much, but still more than Deck. Laptops are less limited. Right now strategy for cheap laptoping is getting a cheap machine with i5 or quad core Ryzen, upgrading storage and RAM for cheap. Lack of RAM is the thing that kills laptop usability. CPUs are basically fast enough to not mater mostly. GPUs are only useful for very limited workloads. Integrated graphics are usually good enough for some minimal gaming needs.
 
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There aren't anymore.


Dude GTX 1060 wipes floor with iGPUs. It's times faster than anything integrated. Completely different league. And how does laptop have poor ergonomics? You don't hold it like handheld to do anything. You put it on table to use it.



If Deck tries to be a PC, then it should be a proper PC. If it tries to be console, the nit should be a proper console. There's no need for something half-assed that doesn't work well as both.



Why did you even reply about Deck? My original post was about laptops only, nothing about Deck. Don't like circular reasoning, then don't start circles yourself. As easy as that.
Why are you even on about laptops?! Though.

Shit no one bar Ign have had their MIT's on it, so calm down a bit, trust me I'll mess with that shit ,I'll post benches so will others better known, we Will know, until then it's opinions and rumours.

A laptop is massive heavy and square with no thumb pads , game specific buttons or two special thumb pads, it's not in the same ballpark.
 
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I don't want a laptop, especially not for gaming. I want a steam deck for gaming.

This product isn't for you @The red spirit. Why do you care about this so much?
 
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Replied to Valantar, who was writing about laptops in this thread.
He was probably saying he didn't want that he wants this, I'll check.

Plus if you don't want to comment on deck don't but this threads about Steam deck.
They're are many threads where you could debate ewaste if that's your motiv/point.
 
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He was probably saying he didn't want that he wants this, I'll check.

Plus if you don't want to comment on deck don't but this threads about Steam deck.
They're are many threads where you could debate ewaste if that's your motiv/point.
In this same tread people started mentioning laptops. Now go talk to them why they did that.
 
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In this same tread people started mentioning laptops. Now go talk to them why they did that.
Because his point was, and you proved him right with a Clevo with swappable memory and SSD .

He said so are laptops (largely not upgradeable , and scarcely more than this) disposable, from a certain point of view.
You came back with a 2006 laptop that's good for web browsing and notes and the same(Not upgradeable), can you fit a 3090 in it or an i71190k?!
 
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I don't know why Valantar started writing about laptops too and mentioned that they are not upgradable. They still are more upgradable. Maybe you can't change CPUs anymore, but you still can mess with storage, RAM, and possibly screen too (if they haven't switched to proprietary connectors). That's not much, but still more than Deck. Laptops are less limited. Right now strategy for cheap laptoping is getting a cheap machine with i5 or quad core Ryzen, upgrading storage and RAM for cheap. Lack of RAM is the thing that kills laptop usability. CPUs are basically fast enough to not mater mostly. GPUs are only useful for very limited workloads. Integrated graphics are usually good enough for some minimal gaming needs.
I "started writing about" (as in: mentioned once in a very short response to a specific post) laptops because some vague argument was made about the lack of upgradeability of consoles. Which, well, laptops are marginally more upgradeable, but not in a way that significantly improves performance. Then you took that response (entriely out of context) and decided to run with it for some reason.

Yes, there are laptops more upgradeable than the Steam Deck. But so what? None of them are 600g handhelds with integrated controllers. You're comparing apples to oranges. Different things have different purposes and different uses.

You're not fitting four 32-but channels (two SODIMMs) of socketed DDR5-5500 in a chassis this small (nor will that RAM be available for this product launch), so asking for upgradeable RAM in this case is asking for a major performance downgrade. Storage is upgradeable. CPU and GPU aren't in any reasonably portable device these days. And... screens? No. They don't necessarily use proprietary connectors (there are dozens and dozens of standard, off-the-shelf ones, so there's no need to design anything proprietary), but the main hindrance is bezel thickness and mounting, as neither of those are standardized, and different mounting means you won't be able to actually secure any display upgrade in the case. Which is kind of important, yes?

But again: why are we discussing this? Is the lack of upgradeability a deal breaker for you with this? Cool. Say so, and let the rest of us move on. We've made it clear that such expectations in our opinions are rather irrelevant and wildly unrealistic (considering you won't find significantly more upgradeability in much larger laptops even). Is performance too low for you? Again, then this clearly isn't the product for you. We all want infinite performance in as small a device as possible, but that isn't happening. For some of us, this is a much more tempting companion device to a desktop PC than a large and heavy gaming laptop. Again, you're entirely welcome to disagree with that, but saying something isn't right for you is hardly an argument for it being outright bad. And for what it is and what it is trying to be, the Steam Deck does seem like a far superior solution to existing alternatives.
 
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Because his point was, and you proved him right with a Clevo with swappable memory and SSD .

He said so are laptops (largely not upgradeable , and scarcely more than this) disposable, from a certain point of view.
You came back with a 2006 laptop that's good for web browsing and notes.
Yeah, weak argument, but still, laptops have upgradable RAM. That's more upgradability than in Deck and that can increase lifespan of laptop a lot, if you keep it for as long as you could. Lack of CPU power is only poor in CPU intensive tasks, lack of RAM kills whole usability of machine. As long as you have enough RAM, machine can works as best as it could, if not everything chokes. No other components has as much power to ruin machine as bad as lack of RAM.
 
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Replied to Valantar, who was writing about laptops in this thread.
You have an interesting definition of "writing about". Perhaps reread that post as well as the one I was responding to and try to understand the context? Also note that the person I responded to didn't follow up. So why did you decide to pick that up, take it out of context, and make it into an off-topic discussion it never was?
I didn't want to write here anything about Deck. Read the damn posts written above or I will report this as spam.
Why are you in a thread about the steam deck if you're not interested in discussing it? Are you here trying to actively derail a discussion?
Yeah, weak argument, but still, laptops have upgradable RAM. That's more upgradability than in Deck and that can increase lifespan of laptop a lot, if you keep it for as long as you could. Lack of CPU power is only poor in CPU intensive tasks, lack of RAM kills whole usability of machine. As long as you have enough RAM, machine can works as best as it could, if not everything chokes. No other components has as much power to ruin machine as bad as lack of RAM.
Seriously, can you leave this long-dead horse alone and stop beating it? Besides, most laptops today don't have upgradeable RAM either. Nearly everything is soldered today. That largely includes gaming laptops that try to be thin and light too. Buy the RAM you need to begin with. And given how long its taken for 16GB to replace 8 as the baseline for desktop usage, it's extremely unlikely that 16 will be too little for light usage in the next decade or even longer. As for CPU performance not holding you back - that's nonsense. My previous laptop was a ThinkPad X201, which I had for 8 years, and at the end its CPU was severely holding me back even in everyday use. Did it work? Sure. Was it fine? Sure. Was it slow? Yes. Did it annoy me. Yep. Did I still use it for work every day? Yep. But I was very happy when I upgraded to a modern quad core.
 
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Yeah, weak argument, but still, laptops have upgradable RAM. That's more upgradability than in Deck and that can increase lifespan of laptop a lot, if you keep it for as long as you could. Lack of CPU power is only poor in CPU intensive tasks, lack of RAM kills whole usability of machine. As long as you have enough RAM, machine can works as best as it could, if not everything chokes. No other components has as much power to ruin machine as bad as lack of RAM.
It's got 16GB of LPddr5 in a quad channel config, honestly, messing with that and that alone sold it to me , I have about 300 games this will run fine already for it's entire life, your point is?! I can't game on it in 2028, would I want to?!.
 
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Besides, most laptops today don't have upgradeable RAM either. Nearly everything is soldered today. That largely includes gaming laptops that try to be thin and light too.
Oh, that's certainly not true.

Buy the RAM you need to begin with. And given how long its taken for 16GB to replace 8 as the baseline for desktop usage, it's extremely unlikely that 16 will be too little for light usage in the next decade or even longer.
May not be, but no one predicted that 512MB wouldn't be fine once Vista launched either. Things like that are hard to predict well and putting upgradable RAM doesn't make laptop any meaningfully thicker. At most it adds 2-3 millimeters of thickness. And it doesn't cost them anything meaningful to make RAM slot. Also laptops with already big RAM capacity carry a huge premium and we all know that they ware only charging that, because less aware of things, buy those things. Soldered RAM is anti-consumer BS and serves no purpose existing on something as big as laptop. Soldered RAM is only acceptable with truly small devices like single board computers, Arduinos, tablets, phones, but not laptops. If I wanted all soldered crap, I would go to Apple to be screwed. A PC is personal and should remain so.


As for CPU performance not holding you back - that's nonsense. My previous laptop was a ThinkPad X201, which I had for 8 years, and at the end its CPU was severely holding me back even in everyday use. Did it work? Sure. Was it fine? Sure. Was it slow? Yes. Did it annoy me. Yep. Did I still use it for work every day? Yep. But I was very happy when I upgraded to a modern quad core.
I dunno, Turion X2 TL-60 was adequate for me in 2017. It had two AMD K8 cores. It was basically better binned Athlon 64 X2. It's fine for web browsing and doing things. It wasn't really slow for me. I only saw big difference between it and FX 6300, once I launched WCG to crunch, but even then it was nearly as bad as I thought it would be. After all it was scaled down full desktop chip with only slightly lower clock speed. It surely was better than stock Sempron 3400+ working at 1.8GHz. SSD helped a lot to make system feel responsive. But it's important to mention, that it depends on your usage. If you want any demanding productivity, I would likely feel a lot more held back. The worst thing about that system was by far e-waste GeForce Go 6150. So ewaste, that is several times slower than FX 5200, which was first real modern potato. The only nice thing about it is that it overclocked a lot, but that still meant UT 2004 ran at lowest settings at 640*480 and average of 40 fps. It can't even decode anything interesting either.
 
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Seriously, can you leave this long-dead horse alone and stop beating it? Besides, most laptops today don't have upgradeable RAM either. Nearly everything is soldered today. That largely includes gaming laptops that try to be thin and light too.

You know I hadn't realized how bad the laptop market had become until I saw a video on LTT about an upgradeable laptop, which is basically a slightly easier to work on version of the way laptops used to be.
 
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Oh, that's certainly not true.
Sorry, but it really is. The vast majority of laptops these days are cheap thin-and-light-ish designs, and nearly all of those have soldered memory - it's cheaper for OEMs that way, and it's easier to charge a premium for a thinner laptop. There are still many models with replaceable memory, but they are increasingly rare.
May not be, but no one predicted that 512MB wouldn't be fine once Vista launched either. Things like that are hard to predict well and putting upgradable RAM doesn't make laptop any meaningfully thicker. At most it adds 2-3 millimeters of thickness. And it doesn't cost them anything meaningful to make RAM slot. Also laptops with already big RAM capacity carry a huge premium and we all know that they ware only charging that, because less aware of things, buy those things. Soldered RAM is anti-consumer BS and serves no purpose existing on something as big as laptop. Soldered RAM is only acceptable with truly small devices like single board computers, Arduinos, tablets, phones, but not laptops. If I wanted all soldered crap, I would go to Apple to be screwed. A PC is personal and should remain so.
Nice straw man you've got there. It's just too bad nobody has been arguing for what you're arguing against here. Again: you're arguing a systemic, industry-wide point as a specific criticism of a single device. Do you do the same for every thin-and-light laptop announcement? If not, then please take your selective logic elsewhere. And as I said before, this is a device that, unlike those laptops, actually makes use of the density provided by soldered RAM. The size increase from sticking two SODIMMs into the Steam Deck would be far beyond 2-3mm. That's less than the thickness of a single SODIMM+socket, and you'd need to design the motherboard around fitting them, change the cooling system layout, etc. I generally want things to be as repairable and upgradeable as possible, but this is really not a good device at which to draw a line in the sand on that subject. Seriously. This is a case where the lack of upgradeability is acceptable, as it has good reasons behind it. It's a really weird place to complain about it.
I dunno, Turion X2 TL-60 was adequate for me in 2017. It had two AMD K8 cores. It was basically better binned Athlon 64 X2. It's fine for web browsing and doing things. It wasn't really slow for me. I only saw big difference between it and FX 6300, once I launched WCG to crunch, but even then it was nearly as bad as I thought it would be. After all it was scaled down full desktop chip with only slightly lower clock speed. It surely was better than stock Sempron 3400+ working at 1.8GHz. SSD helped a lot to make system feel responsive. But it's important to mention, that it depends on your usage. If you want any demanding productivity, I would likely feel a lot more held back. The worst thing about that system was by far e-waste GeForce Go 6150. So ewaste, that is several times slower than FX 5200, which was first real modern potato. The only nice thing about it is that it overclocked a lot, but that still meant UT 2004 ran at lowest settings at 640*480 and average of 40 fps. It can't even decode anything interesting either.
Well, I guess your standards for performance were pretty low? The i5-540M (with 16GB of RAM and an SSD) in my X201 felt decidedly slow when compared to both my OC'd Core2Quad Q9450 and my later Ryzen 1600X. It was fine, but not good, and my workflow was noticeably improved when I upgraded in early 2019. That is in a use case including multiple browser windows with ~10 tabs each, a few Word documents, plus Outlook and a few other essentials running at all times. It was obviously entirely useless for gaming. But case in point: while I bought that laptop as a base config with 2GB of RAM and upgraded first to 8 right away, then 16 later, 16GB has been sufficient for light to moderate use for a decade. (I never really needed more than 8 in that laptop - it was more of a "why not?" type of situation.) I just moved to 32GB on my main desktop, and often exceed 16 in use, but ... that's with 100+ browser tabs, four game launchers, and a heap of other background tasks running at all times. The Steam Deck wouldn't have any of that running. It's a gaming device first and foremost. 16GB will be sufficient for it for the foreseeable future. Heck, it matches current-gen consoles, so it'll likely be sufficient for console ports for their lifespan, i.e. ~7 years at the very least, though of course the GPU won't keep up for nearly that long. It doesn't have to either. The Switch has demonstrated beautifully that you don't need cutting-edge hardware to make for an enjoyable gaming experience. Nobody is promising years and years of AAA gaming on this thing. It's promising a good play experience with current games, including current AAA games though they might only see 30fps at 800p. Later AAA games will obviously become too demanding for it to run at some point. As is the case with all gaming PCs, consoles, etc.

And again: the Steam Deck isn't trying to be a laptop. It's a gaming handheld that happens to be a small full-fledged PC. It's significantly more powerful (at least on paper) than existing alternatives in that category, such as the Aya Neo or the OneXPlayer. You can dock it and use it as a PC if you want to, but that clearly isn't a main use case. It's for handheld, portable (or just lying in bed/on the couch/in a lounge chair/on the porch/whatever) gaming. Even a small gaming laptop isn't suitable for those use cases - unless you enjoy having a large, heavy, hot laptop in your lap, that is. Most of us really don't. I don't want a big, heavy gaming laptop. I want something portable, easy to use, Switch-like but capable of running my PC game library. And I think most other people interested in this do too. It's not meant as a primary gaming device (unless low-end gaming is good enough for you, in which case that's obviously fine too). You're treating this as if it's trying to be something entirely different from what it is. I understand that you don't see the use case, but ... please try to understand that other people than you have other wishes, desires, use cases, lives. Your tastes and preferences are not universal.
 
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This is all pointless until you show me a video of you holding your clevo in both hands and playing games on it with just your thumbs on the train.

If you can do that, then "upgradeability" becomes a legitimate discussion.
 
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This is all pointless until you show me a video of you holding your clevo in both hands and playing games on it with just your thumbs on the train.

If you can do that, then "upgradeability" becomes a legitimate discussion.
Thank you for saying in 41 words (had to count!) what I've spent probably a thousand words on in this thread.
 
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This is all pointless until you show me a video of you holding your clevo in both hands and playing games on it with just your thumbs on the train.

If you can do that, then "upgradeability" becomes a legitimate discussion.

Thank you for saying in 41 words (had to count!) what I've spent probably a thousand words on in this thread.
Very funny, your massively eloquent and detailed, I'm vague,but he's priceless and on point.
 
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I'd just like to come back to this thread to say I told you so.

Rock Paper Shotgun confirmed with Yang that you can output HDMI with a dongle, without the dock.

Link

@newtekie1
 
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