Discussion in 'News' started by btarunr, Dec 19, 2008.
valua of us dollar is dropping its cheaper for EU guys to port stuff from US
I'm not saying we shouldn't support EU gamers, they're the only people to provide a real challenge on servers in the EU! The Pound is pretty much equal to the euro right now so in theory the UK should be paying £50 for L4D on steam, although obviously we're not and are instead paying £30 for it.
Its not a "simple scam" at all. Read it again.
As you can read there are some pricing issues on some of the games but Mike said they are trying to fix that. It's a new system after all. Valve is a fair company and is doing what Microsoft and Sony have done all along. You guys are just pissed you cant take advantage of the weakened American dollar anymore via Steam.
I don't buy excuses thank you, but I could agree it's not SIMPLE scam, elaborated scam maybe. As I see it Valve WAS fair, but if there's something Valve has always done very well is learn from the companies they have worked with. In their infancy they learnt a lot from iD, but it's a shame the last company they have worked with is EA. As I said they learn things fast... $1 = 1€ has a very easy to understand and precise objective, make money. Europeans, Asians, everybody should pay the same for the same service. Retail in Europe is NOT the same service as retail in US, Steam IS. In retail you have to transport the products (paid in Euros for european transporters), you have to sell it (paid in Euros again) and make publicity for it (paid in euros, see the trend??). In that case some extra money is justified and is tied to the strenght of the Euro. In the case of Steam is NOT JUSTIFIED. Pissed because we can't get advantage of what? Haha, that's funny coming from the US. Don't be hypocritical, tell the 3rd world that from now on, thanks to TheMailMan, their currency and their work is worth the same than that of the dollar and you. I'm sure they won't care too much the Euro is a little bit stronger...
So let me get this straight. You think that because a good is physical it should cost more correct? However you are ignoring the fact Microsoft and Sony sell their games for the same price in the U.S. only in Euros. If a game cost me 49.99 dollars here in the states it cost you 49.99 Euros. So again Valve isnt doing anything out of the ordinary. They were just late to the game.
FYI here in the States some games are CHEAPER in the store than on Steam due to local state taxes and such. Also you leave out the fact that VAT taxes are goverened by the local regions goverment/state/country. And to sell a piece of software with or without taxes are defined by local laws. These are the "issues" Mike was talking about. Until then you get a 1-1 ratio. But rest assured you WILL pay the same as what you pay in the store. Steam has never been cheaper than the store except on weekend deals.
Again sorry the Euro wont go as far as it used to but them are the breaks. Write your local King, Prime Minister or Emperor or who ever dictates your laws. Just dont expect Valve to absorb any governments greed.
Steam should never charge the same than retail, because of what I said above. If that's the case in US, sorry but Valve has been moraly scaming you big time. What they want to charge is WAY ABOVE local taxes and is NOT motivated by them, nor is the goverments involved at all. VAT has ALWAYS been charged and the price was never so high. They made an excuse and you fell for it, but that doesn't mean everybody else should do it. They say there are some "issues" with the taxes and all. Charging 25% instead of 16% in Spain is an "issue" or 17.5% on other countries or whatever. They did $1 = 1 euro and that translates to >>> 75% NOW (probably way more in the future). JUst before that move the Euro beta system was already applied with the proper pricing (without VAT), so they didn't had to "fix" anything, they already had it properly done. They just thought they could up the prices and make more money, because retail is more expensive, but as I said Steam is not retail and has many things why it HAS to be cheaper. Retail copies have to pay trucks, have to pay stores, have to pay the people that drive them and all that is paid in euros. Everything Steam is paid in dollars and they don't have to pay the truckers, etc, so I have the right to pay in dollars or equivalent euros AND the same than US customers + whichever my government wants (<- VAT and ONLY VAT), not so much more just because retail costs that. And BTW you'll be happy to know that "$1 = 1€ in retail" IS also something of the past, right now PC games don't ususally cost so much. It does in CONSOLES, but you have a reason there why I don't and won't buy consoles. You mention M$ and Sony as if they were honest companies, the way to go...
This is ALL about paying a reasonable price for what you get, according to what it costs. If delivering a game through Steam costs $50 in the US, it costs $50+VAT in EU. Period.
But everbody seems to be completely avoiding the fact that everybody else has already been following the $1=1EU model for a long time now. So, now that Steam has finally started doing it, there's a huge uproar, yet, this is completely normal in your market already.
I don't see what the problem is here. They are following the same business model as everyone else now. You don't like it? Don't buy it. Simple as that.
How many times I have to say that what can fairly be applied to retail CAN'T be considered FAIR with Steam? Selling things in RETAIL in Europe costs a LOT more than retail in the US or any other area TBH, that's the price we have to pay if we want our truckers and sellers to have a FAIR salary, on par with the rest of the people. Steam doesn't have to deal with so many european salaries, everything is paid in dollars, so that BOOST in the price is not justified at all. I'm sure that the same people saying here that is fair what Valve is doing, will never accept if Taiwan decides that their currency should be worth the same. I'm sure nobody would accept a $1500 mainstream graphics card, for example. And if workers in those countries had the same salaries as in US or EU (some countries) that's what hardware would cost.
People in the US have to deal with the fact that it's not the Euro that has been getting stronger in the world, it's the dollar that has been falling (thank your government for that). If we can buy more things in dollars is not different than with Taiwan for example. If something costs $50 to make and have a profit, it is that what you should charge and not more. Of course, I supose you have the "right" to charge whatever you want (is not moral though), but talk straight when doing so and not in a shaddy manner with lots of false and unbelievable excuses...
Yes, it is fairly applied to Steam. Steam may not have to pay truckers and warehouse people, but they do have to pay for maintaining huge server farms and for tech support.
And your logic still fails because this is still the software market. Every other facet of your software market follows this same trend, whether it be a digital or physical medium. The means of package or delivery means nothing what so ever.
TBF though EA could charge £50 for a PC game and have probably tried to, however Valve simply wouldn't charge that much for a game and it would also be of an infinitely higher quality.
I think you don't want to understand. In retail this is how the pie is dissected (speculation just for comparison):
In US out of the $50: $30 is for the publisher, developer and associates. The other $20 is for the delivery, storage (physical which is much more expensive than digital BTW) and seller salaries.
In EU out of 50€ in retail: 7€-8€ is VAT, the same $30 or 22€ is for the publisher/developer and 20€ is to pay the delivery, storage and seller salaries.
The publisher gets the same, it's the rest what changes. Steam does not have to pay all that, servers are nowhere near as expensive as the complete retail channel, tech support is the same for both methods, companies that sell in retail still have servers too... So if Valve charged a 10% more in the EU than in US to pay some additional expenditures they could have (which they don't BTW), that would be OK, but no, they are charging 75% more, for the exact same thing.
Those companies in retail do not have to serve nearly as much data as Steam. The operational costs of their servers in no way compares to Steam's.
But still, you dont understand. None of that matters at all, period. Their overheads are of no concern to you. All that matters is the current state of the market they are in. And guess what, their prices now match the current state of the market. That's all that matters.
Now, does it suck that you have to pay more? Well yeah, it does. But does that make it in any way wrong or illegal? No, not at all.
Again, in Steam you don't get the same that you get in retail, so they don't have the right to charge the same. I couldn't care less what happens in the US, if you let them charge you as much that's your fault, if they want to sell in EU they will have to comply with our desires (and they will, they already are apparently).
PD: If you think that the cost of running the servers costs nowhere near the same as the complete retail channels, I think you have to return to school and remember/learn better how the chain works. Sorry but that's the truth. For what the store gets out of the product, the company that delivers it gets (or needs) 1/10th, because they deliver 10x more products (i.e they deliver to 10 stores). In the same manner the wholesaler gets (or needs) 1/10th of what the deliverer, because he sells 10 times more. And finally the publisher/developer can get by with 1/10th of what the wholesaler needs. So in order to survive the publisher just needs 1/1000th of the retail price. Steam gets rid of the last 3 links of the chain and implants a server system that NEVER is close to being 1000 times more expensive than the servers that companies that sell in retail have.
No, I think you need to realize they can set the price to reflect the market as they see fit. Their operational costs are none of your business. They can charge the same as retail if they see fit. With Steam, you are paying for the convenience. If the convenience is not that important to you, by all means, buy retail.
Point is, what they are doing is perfectly legal and fine. Doesn't matter if you like it or not. They'll pay the price in the end if too many people don't like it. That's their prerogative.
And for the record, I worked at a major retail chain's main office. I know how it works, and I never said that Steam has to pay as much in overhead. I was just pointing out that you are underestimating their server costs.
I hope I never see you complain about Nvidia's prices, something very common here in TPU...
One thing is what it's legal and another thing is what we should accept or not. We are complaining and we are in our right to do so. What I don't see the right for is to discuss our feelings about this. They could eventually decide to sell the games for $60 and I guess I wouldn't see you (all) complaining about that. I guess we are of a different paste.
PD. I think it was clear to this point that I dont have as much problem with the fact they are upping the prices, as I do with the fact that they are using excuses to do so. If you think you have the right to charge more, have the balls of admitting it and accept the consecuences.
I'll say if I think it's too high, but I won't complain about it. I'll just not buy at those prices. And from that perspective, I wouldn't buy games from the EU Steam, that much is for sure. )Then again, I wouldn't want to buy games in the EU, period)
I just think too big of a deal is being made out of this. I mean, you guys are pretty much already paying these prices for a lot of the games on the market. Why is it such a big deal that Steam is charging the same as everybody else now?
And I suppose that them glorifying costs on their end is a bit shady, but what major corporation doesn't do this? Why the hell are any games $50-60? I think all games are overpriced. I just speak with my wallet. I rarely ever buy a game on release. I always wait for the price to come down to the $35 or less range (or look for combo deals, specials, etc.)
WileE, you are thinking legally while DM is speaking ethically. They do conflict lol. Everyone is saying "valve is a good fair company" when what happened clearly shows it isnt (which is what has caused the uproar IMO). I reckon if it was "EA" instead of "Valve", people would care a lot less.
The thing is, legally they can and have done what they did, but it is definately not fair. If it was fair, they would either charge USD for ALL customers (with additional taxes and w/e per country in USD) OR charge every country a price in the particular countries currency. Of course, they have done it the "dodgy" way. For countries where the USD dollar is weaker than local currecny, they changed it (ie Europe) and for countries where it is weaker than USD(ie, Australia), they have left it in USD. That is just wrong.
So we went from Steam doing something "illegal" by EU standards to your opinion something was done "morally wrong" by Valve. I wish you would have the balls to admit that this is about taking advantage of the American dollar (which you cant do now) and not about anything "unethical" on Valves part. Sorry man but you should have bought more games when they were cheaper. No need to throw accusations around.
LOL I never said it was illegal. Check your facts. Besides Pinchy said it all above.
EDIT: Anyway it's funny, because it's Valve who is taking advantage of the weak dollar here, and I can guaratee you that I never was able to take advantage of the "strong" Euro. I won't tell you how much is my salary, I will just tell you that it's not 2x that of the average one here in Spain. The average yearly salary here is 20.000 euros and is higher than 50% of the countries in the EU right now with the newcomers. Some countries have less than 10.000 euros of average salary, so I wouldn't call that taking advantage of it. Just because the euro is strong, that doesn't mean that the average Joe in the EU can take advantage of that in any case. On the contrary, the euro favours companies to do the $1 = 1€ thing, so we are in a clear and UNFAIR disadvantage. Not me myself, I can't complain about MY situation, but I am sensitive to others, unlike (and this is something more and more apparent in this thread) most of our US "mates" making an apppearance here... Sad. Very sad when they are constantly taking advantage of the strong dollar in comparison to the numerous countries they exploit.
What is unethical by adhering to industry standards? Valve is being 100% fair. How is it right it gives Europeans a discount when Americans have to pay full price? No one else does. Seems fair to me.
Also you have yet to admit VAT taxes are goverened by the local regions goverment/state/country. And to sell a piece of software with or without taxes are defined by local laws. So in the end you have NO IDEA what it costs Valve to deliver you a game via digital distribution in your local area. In the end all this crying is based off of European greed. Not Valves.
Erm we have already said that VAT is EVERYTHING Valve has to pay, and the funny part is that is not Valve who has to pay it, custumers are and we are not complainig about that.
Americans pay the full price and what we want is to pay the full price for the Steam games, and that is $50+VAT on our countries, NOT 50 €.
What happens here is that YOU don't want to see your precious dollar being exploited in the same way that the US EXPLOITS most of the weak countries and currencies. Sorry but that's something you will have to deal with.
We have admitted Valve should not have to lose profits on VAT and should charge an additional fee for VAT (how much it actually costs them). The point is that they are simply changing the currency and using things like VAT as an excuse, to cover the EXTRA money they are making.
How on earth is it giving Europeans a discount? If they just charged everyone in USD, with the additional fees they are paying for certain contries added on in USD, it would be fair. They are making the same profits for all countries that way.
By changing the currency, they are charging a European $70USD and an american $50USD. 15% VAT tax on 50 usd is $7.50, not $20.00.
Na I could care less. The world market sucks right now. Everyone is hurting but I'm making a killing. Iv had nothing but luck lately.
However seems like you have a loathing for the U.S. and it makes me wonder if this whole "Valve" tangent your on is about them at all. Your little comment "the US EXPLOITS most of the weak countries" sounds like your biased against anything American. Im sure your country NEVER EVER takes advantage of cheap labor.
Also I'm willing to bet America donates more money to developing countries than yours does. If anyone is "taking advantage" of cheap labor its your home town. Not ours.
As Mike stated they are working on making some pricing adjustments. I wouldn't buy anything until then. Like they said
WRONG. Spain is the country that most donates (in comparison to its incoming) in the WORLD. This is a fact that was covered by an study made by many NGOs in 2006. So you did SCREWED there, BADLY.
EDIT: Pff not only that, US is the country that less donates in the world, between the developed ones...
IT DOESN'T MATTER for what we are talking about anyway, but ALL your discussion has been based on that we want to take advantage of the weak dollar. I could stand that comment from pretty much any currency except the dollar and the country it belongs to. I won't deny my aversion for the recent US behavior in the world, for it's government (Bush) and the sheep legion that voted him, TWICE!! It's exactly mantaining that dominance of the dollar which made the US government decide to attack Iraq, and that's both unforgetable and unforgiveable. And I have all the reason to think this way, BUT that is not motivating my comments about Valve, even though I can admit they may be conditioning my replies to YOUR comments.
Mike's comments are just a BAD excuse made AFTER they were caught. As I said the currency BETA was established prior to them doing $1 = 1 € and worked flawlessly. VAT was not included in the price shown in the games list, but was applied later at the time of paying. Everything OK. Why the change? That's already answered.
Separate names with a comma.