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VISTA q&a by ms employees

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#1

KennyT772

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#2
compelete bullshit.

i give it a year before hackers disable every procaution in windows. and 6 months after that when M$ will want a weekly upload to the net.
 
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#3
ok im posting this for those vista lovers to read, its ms developer(works for ms) effectivly admiting to EVERYTHING peter guntman's artical said.
granted theres alot of SPIN in his answers or the answers are useless because, well he subverts them(like opensorce drivers and HID) but you read and deside

this is a link to the vista team blog where this artical can be fould
http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/OS-Enhancements/Microsoft-Virtual-PC-2004-Key-Fix.shtml

About Nick White
I'm a Product Manager at Microsoft working on the Windows Vista launch team. I also work with key influencers in our user community. This means I get to do cool stuff, play with lots of electronic toys, travel the world, and blog about it at the same time. I know you're jealous ;)
© Copyright 2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


Windows Vista Content Protection - Twenty Questions (and Answers)
Posted by Nick White on Saturday, January 20, 2007 10:38 AM 45 Comments Tags: Windows Vista, Featured News, Digital Rights Management


A conversation has cropped up since the recent publication of a paper scrutinizing how Windows handles digital rights management, especially for HD video. I've since looped back with Dave Marsh, a Lead Program Manager responsible for Windows' handling of video, to learn from him the implications involved and to learn to what extent the paper's assertions are accurate. The following is an article Dave has put together to address the misconceptions in the paper, followed by answers to what we expect will be the most frequent questions in the minds of our customers. Leave us a comment to let us know what you think. -- Nick

Over the holidays, a paper was distributed that raised questions about the content protection features in Windows Vista. The paper draws sharp conclusions about the implications of those features for our customers. As one of the Lead Program Managers for the technologies in question, I would like to share our views on these questions.

Windows Vista includes content protection infrastructure specifically designed to help ensure that protected commercial audiovisual content, such as newly released HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs, can be enjoyed on Windows Vista PCs. In many cases this content has policies associated with its use that must be enforced by playback devices. The policies associated with such content are applicable to all types of devices including Windows Vista PCs, computers running non-Windows operating systems, and standalone consumer electronics devices such as DVD players. If the policies required protections that Windows Vista couldn't support, then the content would not be able to play at all on Windows Vista PCs. Clearly that isn't a good scenario for consumers who are looking to enjoy great next generation content experiences on their PCs.

Associating usage policies with commercial content is not new to Windows Vista, or to the industry. In fact, much of the functionality discussed in the paper has been part of previous versions of Windows, and hasn’t resulted in significant consumer problems – as evidenced by the widespread consumer use of digital media in Windows XP. For example:
Standard definition DVD playback has required selective use of Macrovision ACP on analog television outputs since it was introduced in the 1990s. DVD playback on and in Windows has always supported this.
The ability to restrict audio outputs (e.g., S/PDIF) for certain types of content has been available since Windows Millennium Edition (ME) and has been available in all subsequent versions of Windows.
The Certified Output Protection Protocol (COPP) was released over 2 years ago for Windows XP, and provides applications with the ability to detect output types and enable certain protections on video outputs such as HDCP, CGMS-A, and Macrovision ACP.

It's important to emphasize that while Windows Vista has the necessary infrastructure to support commercial content scenarios, this infrastructure is designed to minimize impact on other types of content and other activities on the same PC. For example, if a user were viewing medical imagery concurrently with playback of video which required image constraint, only the commercial video would be constrained -- not the medical image or other things on the user's desktop. Similarly, if someone was listening to commercial audio content while viewing medical imagery, none of the video protection mechanisms would be activated and the displayed images would again be unaffected.

Contrary to claims made in the paper, the content protection mechanisms do not make Windows Vista PCs less reliable than they would be otherwise -- if anything they will have the opposite effect, for example because they will lead to better driver quality control.

The paper implies that Microsoft decides which protections should be active at any given time. This is not the case. The content protection infrastructure in Windows Vista provides a range of à la carte options that allows applications playing back protected content to properly enable the protections required by the policies established for such content by the content owner or service provider. In this way, the PC functions the same as any other consumer electronics device.

With that introduction, here are the top twenty questions, and answers, that aim to address some of the other points raised in the paper.

Dave Marsh - Lead Program Manager for Video

Twenty Questions and Answers

Do these content protection requirements apply equally to the Consumer Electronics industry supplied player devices such as an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player?

Generally the requirements are equivalent for all devices. For example, an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc always requires HDCP protection for DVI/HDMI outputs regardless of the type of device playing the disc. There are some cases, such as DVD-Video, where PCs have slightly different protection requirements than CE devices, but these differences are mainly historical and as dictated by the licenses associated with the systems providing access to the content (e.g., CSS for DVD).

When are Windows Vista's content protection features actually used?

Windows Vista's content protection mechanisms are only used when required by the policy associated with the content being played. For Windows Vista experiences, if the content does not require a particular protection, then that protection mechanism is not used.

Will the playback quality be reduced on some video output types?

Image quality constraints are only active when required by the policy associated with the content being played, and then only apply to that specific content -- not to any other content on the user's desktop. As a practical matter, image constraint will typically result in content being played at no worse than standard definition television resolution. In the case of HD optical media formats such as HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, the constraint requirement is 520K pixels per frame (i.e., roughly 960x540), which is still higher than the native resolution of content distributed in the DVD-Video format. We feel that this is still yields a great user experience, even when using a high definition screen.

Will this affect things like medical imagery applications?

Image constraints only apply to protected content being played and not to the desktop as a whole; therefore, the resolution of other non-protected media, such as medical images, is not affected.

Do things such as HFS (Hardware Functionality Scan) affect the ability of the open-source community to write a driver?

No. HFS uses additional chip characteristics other than those needed to write a driver. HFS requirements should not prevent the disclosure of all the information needed to write drivers.

Will the Windows Vista content protection board robustness recommendations increase the cost of graphics cards and reduce the number of build options?

Everything was moving to be integrated on the one chip anyway and this is independent of content protection recommendations. Given that cost (particularly chip cost) is most heavily influenced by volume, it is actually better to avoid making things optional through the use of external chips. It is a happy side effect that this technology trend also reduces the number of vulnerable tracks on the board.

Will Windows Vista content protection features increase CPU resource consumption?

Yes. However, the use of additional CPU cycles is inevitable, as the PC provides consumers with additional functionality. Windows Vista's content protection features were developed to carefully balance the need to provide robust protection from commercial content while still enabling great new experiences such as HD-DVD or Blu-Ray playback.

Aren't there already output content protection features in Windows XP?

Yes. Output content protections are not new requirements for commercial content. The CSS content protection system for DVD-video discs requires output protections such as Macrovision ACP and limiting the resolution on component video outputs to standard definition. Windows XP has supported these requirements for some time.

Is content protection something that is tied to High Definition video?

While HD content has some unique content protection requirements, many of the requirements apply to commercial content generally, independent of resolution.

What about S/PDIF audio connections?

Windows Vista does not require S/PDIF to be turned off, but Windows Vista continues to support the ability to turn it off for certain content -- a capability that has been present on the Windows platform for many years. Additionally, in order to support the requirements of some types of content, Windows Vista supports the ability to constrain the quality of the audio component of that content. Similar to image constraint for video, this quality constraint only applies to the audio from content whose policy requires the constraint, not to any other audio being played concurrently on the system. As a practical matter, these audio restrictions are not widely used today.

Will Component (YPbPr) video outputs be disabled by Windows Vista's content protection?

Similar to S/PDIF, Windows Vista does not require component video outputs to be disabled, but rather enables the enforcement of the usage policy set by content owners or service providers, including with respect to output restrictions and image constraint.

Will echo cancellation work less well for premium content?

We believe that Windows Vista provides applications with access to sufficient information to successfully build high quality echo cancellation functionality.

Will it mean that there will no longer be unified graphics drivers?

The Windows Vista content protection requirements for graphics drivers will not lead to movement away from unified drivers. In fact, all graphics drivers shipped with Windows Vista are unified drivers.

Will Windows Vista audio content protection mean that HDMI outputs can't be shown as S/PDIF outputs?

It is better if they show as different codec types, as it allows the difference to be reflected in the UI, thus providing the user help with their configuration and creating a better user experience. The user wants to know the difference between HDMI and S/PDIF, as they are different physical connectors.

What is revocation and where is it used?

Renewal and revocation mechanisms are an important part of providing robust protection for commercial audiovisual content. In the rare event that a revocation is required, Microsoft will work with the affected IHV to ensure that a new driver is made available, ideally in advance of the actual revocation. Revocation only impacts a graphics driver's ability to receive certain commercial audiovisual content; otherwise, the revoked driver will continue to function normally.

Does this complicate the process of writing graphics drivers?

Adding new functionality usually introduces new complexity. In this case, additional complexity is added to the graphics driver, but that complexity comes with the direct consumer benefit of new scenarios such as HD-DVD or Blu-Ray playback.

Will the 'tilt bit' mechanism cause problems even when the driver is not under attack from a hacker, e.g., when there are voltage spikes?

It is pure speculation to say that things like voltage fluctuations might cause a driver to think it is under attack from a hacker. It is up to a graphics IHV to determine what they regard as an attack. Even if such an event did cause playback to stop, the user could just press 'play' again and carry on watching the movie (after the driver has re-initialized, which takes about a second). Again, it is important to note that this could only occur in the case of watching the highest-grade premium content, such as HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. In practice I doubt it would ever actually happen.

Does Windows Vista's use of OMAC-authenticated communication impact graphics driver performance?

The authenticated communication mechanisms used for Protected Video Path in Windows Vista are only actively used while commercial content is playing. This means that while there is a performance impact, it is limited to the scenarios where it is required to provide robust protection for commercial content.

Do content protection requirements mean that graphics chips have to provide hardware acceleration for video decode?

No. The Windows Vista content protection requirements do not require that graphics hardware include hardware acceleration for decode for many years, but such support is highly recommended to improve the user experience for HD content.

Will the video and audio content protection mechanisms affect gaming on the PC?

The Windows Vista content protection features were design for commercial audiovisual content and are typically not used in game applications. A game author would have to specifically request these features for them to impact game performance.
JAN
This essay has essentially CONFIRMED every horrible charge leveled at Vista by Gutmann. Using a bucket full of weasel words does nothing to convince me that Vista isn't screwing the consumer--or worse, the media/medical professional--for the sake of. . . of what? At the end of the day, the most infuriating thing about this crippleware is that it was done with such a blatant disregard for the consumer without a moment's hesitation. In what universe is it appropriate to give a content producer the power to turn off a user's hardware? How can you have no moral qualms with this?
When you posture DRM as a 'direct consumer benefit' you may as well just be saying 'It's double plus good' as you strap the rat cage to my face.

The boldness which Microsoft infringes on the interests of their end-users by pandering to their business partners under the assumption that consumers will choke down whatever we're fed.

I suppose in some respects we have choked down a lot in the past but the Zune, Office 2007 and Vista are all unrivaled in their inability to grasp the needs of their customers.
> Will the Windows Vista content protection board robustness recommendations increase the cost of graphics cards [...]

The answer given here is evasive. I recommend to read a presentation given by ATI at WinHEC 2005, available at Microsoft's web site: http://download.microsoft.com/downl...4e74-92a3-088782200fe7/TWEN05002_WinHEC05.ppt

Look for these quotes (yes, all from one presentation):

"These costs are passed on to the consumer"

"This cost is passed on to all consumers"

"This cost is passed on to purchasers of multimedia PC’s"

"Costs are passed on to consumers"

"Costs are passed on to consumers, especially early adopters"

> If the policies required protections that Windows Vista couldn't support, then the content would not be able to play at all on Windows Vista PCs. Clearly that isn't a good scenario for consumers who are looking to enjoy great next generation content experiences on their PCs.

Did anyone think about those customers who couldn't care less about "[enjoying] great next generation content experiences on their PCs"? Oh yes, ATI did. They're the "all consumers", as in "This cost is passed on to all consumers."

"In the case of HD optical media formats such as HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, the constraint requirement is 520K pixels per frame (i.e., roughly 960x540), which is still higher than the native resolution of content distributed in the DVD-Video format. We feel that this is still yields a great user experience, even when using a high definition screen."

YUM! I LOVE to get less than what I paid for, simply because I don't want my computer and monitor to pay licenses to Intel for a technology that is so weak (and misplaced) it is bordering on useless.

"Will the Windows Vista content protection board robustness recommendations increase the cost of graphics cards and reduce the number of build options?

Everything was moving to be integrated on the one chip anyway and this is independent of content protection recommendations. Given that cost (particularly chip cost) is most heavily influenced by volume, it is actually better to avoid making things optional through the use of external chips. It is a happy side effect that this technology trend also reduces the number of vulnerable tracks on the board."

...No. No, it wasn't about to be integrated onto one chip. And what about the license fees to Intel (for HDCP), Macrovision, etc? Clearly they increase the cost. ATI agrees (see previous post by Gonzo).

"Will Windows Vista content protection features increase CPU resource consumption?

Yes. However, the use of additional CPU cycles is inevitable, as the PC provides consumers with additional functionality. Windows Vista's content protection features were developed to carefully balance the need to provide robust protection from commercial content while still enabling great new experiences such as HD-DVD or Blu-Ray playback."

No, downgrading of *MY* content is not "additional functionality", and it is entirely unnecessary. Nor is the protection "robust", or indeed, protective at all. If Microsoft had left it to the industry to write this crap on their own, we would still have these "great new experiences". Instead, Microsoft is bending their OS (and their PR people, apparently) to the will of another industry.

"Will echo cancellation work less well for premium content?

We believe that Windows Vista provides applications with access to sufficient information to successfully build high quality echo cancellation functionality."

What on earth is that supposed to mean? Why can't Vista's echo cancellation functionality work with premium content? Does this mean premium content won't sound as good as normal, sane, content?

"Does this complicate the process of writing graphics drivers?

Adding new functionality usually introduces new complexity. In this case, additional complexity is added to the graphics driver, but that complexity comes with the direct consumer benefit of new scenarios such as HD-DVD or Blu-Ray playback."

Again, this is not new functionality and the complexity is unnecessary. It also adds cost to all consumers whether they want to play this stuff or not.

"Do content protection requirements mean that graphics chips have to provide hardware acceleration for video decode?

No. The Windows Vista content protection requirements do not require that graphics hardware include hardware acceleration for decode for many years, but such support is highly recommended to improve the user experience for HD content."

In other words, the CPU is so taken up by the pointless decoding and encoding of the "protection", that the actual *necessary* work - dealing with the video codec - has to be hardware accelerated on the video card in order to provide a smooth playback experience.
Since when did you think that DRM would not apply to medical imaging. Speaking as a physician, we ALREADY have this problem. The medical image DICOM format has been split into various flavors by competing software vendors who do their best to make sure that you have to have THEIR viewer in order to see files saved in their version of the format.

Further competing hospitals are choosing not to install viewers that would allow MD's to look at films that were taken at their competition ( or perhaps their IT staff can't be bothered to install them -- either way the result is the same). This proprietary behavior is already hindering patient care.

Vista's enhanced DRM only aggravates this nonsense!!
I have one DVD with video in WMV HD. When I used VGA connector on notebook with WinXP and integrated Intel graphics on Samsung LCD - it was able to play 1080i video with great image quality and smooth playback.

When I played the same video on Vista through HDMI connector, video looks like some MPEG 2 VideoCD quality without any smooth playback (P4 2.4, 1.5GM RAM and GF6600GT). This is "great user experience"? I don't think so!

Vista is great, but NOT for multimedia pc connect to HD Ready television.

Nick,

<i>If the policies required protections that Windows Vista couldn't support, then the content would not be able to play at all on Windows Vista PCs. Clearly that isn't a good scenario for consumers who are looking to enjoy great next generation content experiences on their PCs.</i>

I claim this is a fallacious argument. The content protection policies are not laws of nature; they are arbitrary rules set by the content consortiums. While a small vendor has no leverage to push back on these, Microsoft has a virtual monopoly on the desktop market, on which the majority of this content will play.

If Microsoft said "no" to the content rules, the rules would be changed. It might take some time and negotiation, but the content vendors would be dead in the water without Microsoft desktop support. Eventually, one of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray would have capitulated, and users would have fair rights to their purchased content.

As with Zune sharing, Microsoft had a choice -- do what's right for the content vendor, or do what's right for the consumer. In both cases, Microsoft has chosen to sell out their paying customers. In a free market, eventually the customers will leave.

--Jered
Posted by ScottyDog

I read Peter Gutman's analysis and I just finished reading David Marsh's response.

I have to say that David has mastered the art of spin to respond to the questions.

Here is another example of David Marsh's prowess at spin doctor:

Will the 'tilt bit' mechanism cause problems even when the driver is not under attack from a hacker, e.g., when there are voltage spikes?

"Even if such an event did cause playback to stop, the user could just press 'play' again and carry on watching the movie (after the driver has re-initialized, which takes about a second)."

So Peter is right about the tilt bits and David thinks it is just Ducky that Vista is able to be "re-initialized". That is a exactly what Gutman predicted for people that know better.

I would like to know if MS ever thought to ask customers if we wanted our computers turned into an "Appliance" as David Marsh said in his Power Point presentation at HEC. Vista is taking computers a step closer towards set top devices like the cable companies provide to us.

David Marsh even hinted that MS has even more drastic Measures PAP,(PUMA), HFS, PVP-UAB and Encryption of the PCIe Bus that it plans to implement after consumers have accepted their computer has been turned into an Appliance like Device. Slide #6 from HEC

It seems to me that Vista is not consumer friendly but is an attempt to re-define the PC into a content delivery device sacrificing the customers own equipment in the process.

As it stands right now, I have no intention of buying and installing Vista. Why on earth would I want to turn my PC into an Appliance. MS has lost touch with its Customers and turned over development to the “computer experts” in Hollywood. This is so sad from a company I used to respect and love.

If I want an appliance, I will get the $50 box from China.
Posted by clshrock

Nick,

There is a fundamental problem with Microsoft's decision to add enhanced DRM that most have overlooked thus far. There are essentially 2 different core issues here. 1) DRM enforcement itself and 2) Microsoft's inclusion of the DRM "feature".

Assuming that all of your answers are completely accurate and that Microsoft can be trusted to implement all of these "features" properly without any unintended "features" (aka bugs); one HARD COLD PROBLEM STILL REMAINS.

You assume that EVERY single one of your customers wants your enhanced DRM as a feature. Therefore extending the costs of enforcing/granting those features to EVERY single customer. This is a blatantly error in judgement on Microsoft's part.

You should take into account that a customer might NOT EVER WANT to run HD/premium content, but like it or not, all of your customers MUST NOW HAVE IT--no choices. How does this align with Microsoft's projected image of "balancing customer desires with partner desires"?

Why not simply package all of this "mandatory content protection" into just another downloadable update that is only installed when a user EXPRESSLY DESIRES TO PLAY PREMIUM CONTENT? Then, those that want to play HD/premium content on their Vista system can pay the price just like they would expect when going out to purchase a standalone HD-DVD/Blu-ray player. Why force all of your users to pay for this "functionality". Seriously, wasn't that the whole purpose of "Minimum System Requirements"--why not have a little "Microsoft HD pack required" logo just like the while "PlaysForSure" thing?

Since you have drawn the comparison to consumer electronic devices, let me apply the same logic to that market segment. "Premium content" is expensive to deliver, therefore, everyone that only wants a DVD player must now pay extra because some people want to play "premium content". Somehow, this increase in cost is justifiable to the DVD player customer?

Right now, I can voice my feelings about DRM by simply avoiding all DRM laiden content. Personally, I have done just this. I also avoid media players that enforce the crippling of my Fair Use rights. In Windows Vista, it is no longer possible to avoid these players as the functionality is built into the operating system. And even if I never purchased any DRM content, by simply paying for Microsoft Vista I end up supporting the very companies and technologies I am trying to avoid. No thanks. And the same concept applies to the costs of hardware.

You side-stepped the whole hardware cost issue, but I can understand because you don't make most hardware. One of the largest hardware manufactures has spoken up about the costs though, and you can't side-step that fact. By your own admissions, being "Vista capable" does indeed increase the costs of hardware, which will be handed down to the consumer regardless of their chosen operating system.

The simplest explanation for mandating the DRM feature is simply that about adoption. If you didn't pre-package this "update", no one would download, much less pay for it. If that happened, how could all of the licensing and intellectual property costs that are necessary to implement the DRM "features" be properly "passed on to consumers"?

The sole benefactors of this decision are obvious--the consumer loses. Ever since it became possible to execute Fair Use rights on DVDs, the Content Cartell have been looking at better ways to mandate viewing/listening privileges from their crystal palaces. Vista embodies all their wildest dreams.

From your very words, you are telling me that the primary purpose of Vista is to bring HD/Blu-Ray to consumers -- isn't this a gross miscalculation as to how the majority of your customers use their computer? Aren't you being a bit optimistic about the adoption of HD/Blue-Ray in a hugely saturated DVD market? Sure, some want the functionality of Media Center and will want the ability to play their overpriced and limited content, but not all of your customers; why mandate this on everyone?

Quite frankly, I am not interested in HD DRM content and the fact that Linux won't be able to play it in no way detracts from the attractiveness of being able to decide what my computer does.

-Court
Posted by clshrock

MrTuffy,

I have indeed read ALL of the original post. It is not that Microsoft made it possible to allow a customer to consume HD/Blu-Ray content, just that MICROSOFT IS FORCING IT ON EVERYONE WITHOUT LETTING THE CUSTOMER DECIDE IF THEY *WANT* HD/Blue-Ray content to display on their PC.

You are extremely naive if you assume that the only costs involved with DRM are tied to the media that employ DRM. The largest and most expensive part of DRM is what is required to enforce the DRM on the player side.

If a consumer wants to avoid DRM content, it is not right to still make them pay the hardware and software costs involved in enforcing DRM. When will companies stop assuming their customers are criminals?

Don't assume that everyone wants HD/Blu-Ray support. It should be optional--and don't give me that whole Business/Premier/Ultimate non-sense about the activation of these features. Personally, I wonder what the hardware requirements of Vista would be for a version that does not contain all the draconian "features" mandated by the content barrons--would it be that the hardware requirements would decrease?

Seriously, why do I need or want a process running on my computer that polls every hardware device every 30 seconds just to see if Windows should re-initialize my equipment? And don't give me that nonsense about a dual core processor and that the process will be neglible; ANY time spent performing any such activity is UNWANTED and UNDESIRABLE.

-Court


I copyed some of the better comments :), love how people HATE this DRM crap :)
 
Last edited:

KennyT772

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#4
The fundimental problem with vista is the numbers. no new computer will be sold with xp soon after vista comes out. no average joe will know all of the problems with vista. some of those who do know dont care. we power users make up a small percentage of the userbase. the only way we will put vista down is by education.
 
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#5
i have been printing and handing mr guntmans artical like crazy, nobody in my neiborhood will get vista.

and soon after vistas releced it will still be cheaper to choose xp home or pro on your new dell then vista so cheap people will likely do that!!!!
 

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#6
Using a bucket full of weasel words does nothing to convince me that Vista isn't screwing the consumer
When you posture DRM as a 'direct consumer benefit' you may as well just be saying 'It's double plus good' as you strap the rat cage to my face.
These are 2 of my favorite quotes. lol


I pretty much agree with 90% of the responses made in that blog. What really pi**es me off is that I know my hardware is fully capable of displaying content in at least 720p. Why in the hell are we required to have an HDCP capable MONITOR!? It's the things of this nature that really make me mad. Requiring hardware beyond the necessary drive to read it is totally unjustifiable. Why should I have to spend hundreds of my hard earned dollars just to buy hardware with the HDCP logo, when what I have is already powerful enough to play the content? I do not pirate movies or music at all, yet I'm the one that suffers from this, not the pirates. They'll have it fully cracked any time now, but I'll have to watch everything at a reduced resolution, while they enjoy their illegal copies in all of its unconstrained glory. Looks like I'll have to change my stance on cracks now, as I just don't have the money to come into full HDCP compliance. Way to screw those that actually want to obey the law, Microsoft and MPAA/RIAA.
 
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#7
not just monotor, video card and sound card as well, or you get 64k mp3 class audio and perty vcd quility image *woot i have bluray/hd-dvd....oh wait i cant watch it till i spend another grand on a monotor videocard and soundcard that are hdcp/hdmi approved"


rofl


u honestly want to know what drove to download cracks the first time, i had a safedisk protected game that WOULDNT PLAY ON MY SYSTEM the cd drives( i had to try) couldnt red it so the protection would let the game play, tryed returning it the 2nd one didnt work, so i started searching the net(lycos and hotbot) and found that it wasnt rare at all and that the best easyest fixes where 1, no cd crack, 2, daemontools and blindread.

orignaly i thought cracks must be bad and probbly caused games to crash, boy they saved me a bunch of times since them

what drove me to piracy full on has been VUG(sierra) and ATARI(infogramers) and how they treat costmers, i got sick of buying a game for 40-80bucks that was put out early and promised a patch to get it up to snuff and then they never patch it because they dont want to expend the $ to finnish the patch since they already had our $$ they didnt care.

i need a siggy image thatss for a pirat hat, hook hand and cutlass in it :p
 

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#8
not just monotor, video card and sound card as well, or you get 64k mp3 class audio and perty vcd quility image *woot i have bluray/hd-dvd....oh wait i cant watch it till i spend another grand on a monotor videocard and soundcard that are hdcp/hdmi approved"


rofl


u honestly want to know what drove to download cracks the first time, i had a safedisk protected game that WOULDNT PLAY ON MY SYSTEM the cd drives( i had to try) couldnt red it so the protection would let the game play, tryed returning it the 2nd one didnt work, so i started searching the net(lycos and hotbot) and found that it wasnt rare at all and that the best easyest fixes where 1, no cd crack, 2, daemontools and blindread.

orignaly i thought cracks must be bad and probbly caused games to crash, boy they saved me a bunch of times since them

what drove me to piracy full on has been VUG(sierra) and ATARI(infogramers) and how they treat costmers, i got sick of buying a game for 40-80bucks that was put out early and promised a patch to get it up to snuff and then they never patch it because they dont want to expend the $ to finnish the patch since they already had our $$ they didnt care.

i need a siggy image thatss for a pirat hat, hook hand and cutlass in it :p
With all this DRM bs going on, I'm seriously debating joining you in that endeavor.
 
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#9
arrrr m8ty, one more is alwase welcome to join our crew *peglegg walks over and pulls out a chair for WileE*

the only way they will ever get the clue that WE DONT WANT IT is if we dont buy it.

for me a few games i wanted where published by companys i dont want to see get any of my hard earned $, as such i aquier them however i can that wont give the orignal company any of my green, many times i endup buying the games a couple years after they came out used at a local shop, till then i live off "what i find floating in the brine" ;)
 
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#10
My only question would be "Is this OS a waste of resources like the other Windows opperating systems?"
 
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#11
vista on a clean install with 1gb ram uses 700+mb to "appcache" they say this is to make the user esperiance better by prefetching commonly used apps into ram, i say its gonna slow down things when you load a non fetched app.

2003 is LIGHT on resorces, hence its what i use (ad well as what most of my friends have switched to) its what xp should have been.

with a crap load of apps running i still have over 2.5gb ready to load up with other stuff :D
 
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#12
oh and the QnA answered your question no its heavy on cpu and videocard and everything else due to the DRM luggege the os is carrying around
 
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#13
Man... know what I dislike?

The fact that Microsoft probably has built their best OS this time around @ this point in VISTA, & this lunacy over "DRM" is going to mess it all up...

(To me, this says that RIAA & other entities involved in multimedia production still have TONS of monies & legal powers, & are able to influence the largest producer of Operating Systems for the PC to 'bend to their will' it appears, to me @ least!)

Someone said it above, basically, in a nutshell: THE ONLY WAY MICROSOFT WILL "GET THE MESSAGE" is if folks don't buy it...

However, they'll get it on NEW PC's, & this inevitably takes hold as the majority over time... just a matter of time is all.

The part about having to have a special monitor is INSANE though, from what I read above in one of the comments... wtf is that about?

Ah man... see, overall? I like Microsoft!

(Even though they hassled me once over using the word "WINDOWS" in the titles of some freewares I did, no less, lol - FREEWARES of all things, & this made me have to pull of a number of recompiles for NO GOOD REASON imo)

They've done some great work over time, & the things they've accomplished amaze me, personally... but, this really makes me wonder!

This, & the OpenGL vs. DirectX 10 issue on VISTA.

APK

P.S.=> I will make judgements on it, once I have used it, hands-on/personally, & I will wait out the driver & bugs mess to 'shakeout, but I hate seeing GREAT THINGS, go bad, & degenerate too... oh well! I hope this doesn't affect us all too adversely, & ruin a great company... apk
 
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#14
how long will it take ????I bet its already here!!!! No way M$ and Hollywood will keeps the hacks from coming to rip apart the downgrading picture and all that rubbish !!!!! Damn its like they are challenging the hackers ,lol I bet I know who wins !!!! to bad M$ and Hollywood do it at a cost to us and hackers do it for the challenge and to relieve the burden M$ and Hollywood created for the end user!!!!Hip-hip-hurray to the hackers!!1 H3ll you can even get a degree in it.
 
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#15
Alec§taar:
read up on vista, you need HDCD and HDMI to beable to watch your movies/listen to audio at full quility if its part of a "preimum content" packege(anything new coming out of hollywood)

HDCP costs extra because the company making the device has to play INTEL for the licence on each device, and if sombody finds a way to crack ur $350 hdcp/hdmi monotor guess what, they dissable it from preimum content via a blacklist and u get to buy a new one!!!!!

i wouldnt agree vista is the best os ms has made, i would say its the biggist pile of crap for 1 reasion

ITS DRM TO THE CORE, the os has tons of ways to stop delivering you content IF you dont meet HOLLYWOORDS and MS's standreds for your hardware.

you need
hdmi/hdcp video card
hdmi/hdcp monnor(tv as well if you want to watch the movie on ur hdt it has to be HDCP)
HDCP/HDMI apprived audio sorce.

also all those devices need hollywood approved drivers and hardware designs that prevent people from finding a way to get the signal off the card unprotected.

heres a less cluttered version of gutmann's artical "the cost of vista content protection"
http://imperiumworlds.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1168519157

you can also download it as a text file (link in post) and print it if you dont like long reads on the pc, its well worth the read!!!
 
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#16
AshenSugar,

You've been VERY informative here, more than you know, in fact, simply by your mentioning INTEL & HOLLYWOOD in the same sentence in regards to this, as well as turning me onto some more of the details distilled in your last reply!

See, imo @ least?

Well, whenever changes are made in laws (especially HERE), technologies, gov't. (another 'especially'), people's rights, & ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO MONEY OR POWER?

You should ALWAYS ASK 1 SIMPLE QUESTION!

"Who, or what body of "whoms", stands to gain THE MOST by this change or set of changes in the rules of how this particular game is played?"

The ones who's profit centers in entertainment @ least, who are threatened by "DRM" NOT being present in personal computers is who.

APK

P.S.=> I'd like you ALL to think about that question, regarding this, & then ask yourself WHO REALLY CONTROLS BOTH ORGANIZATIONS, largely! And, please folks, don't try & tell me there is never an "infamous they" because if you've worked ANYPLACE for awhile?

Cliques (or other forms of "group therapy" as I call it) DO control things, face it, & they don't think 20 days/weeks/months in advance usually: They think in terms of DECADES ahead, time being on their side, as long as THEY make the rules in that particular body.

You don't have to answer, but, just think about it & come to your OWN conclusions, because I have & will keep them to myself (might be wrong is why, but somehow, I doubt it... history backs me up pretty well on that account)... apk
 
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#17
I had a friend who tried to create a media center PC for his HDTV, he had XP on the computer, but the video card and the TV had some sort of HDCP problem, and it wouldn't work. The card was somewhere in the mid X1000 series, and should have worked, but wouldn't. He wasn't even attempting to defy the DRM, but it still screwed him. I believe he gave up and returned the card, and the rest of the parts.
 

Namslas90

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#18
Wow, it would take a week to read all that. The bottom line is that the "they" reffered to earlier; are the same they that controll 90% of the market. The blatent profiteering gennerated from a single small controlled application can gennerate Billions of profits for a lot of people. The one's that profit can afford the extra crap needed to watch the Movies, etc they want and they make $'s of it anyways.

This is how a Free Market system works!!
10% of the people have 90% of the money!!
There is nothing you can do about it, this is a fact and has been for thousands of years.
You have only two choices, Go with it and buy the stuff, or don't and watch reruns on TV and/or rent from netflix/blockbuster("they" still make their money either way).
 
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#19
10% of the people have 90% of the money!!
There is nothing you can do about it, this is a fact and has been for thousands of years.
OH, I dunno about that...

E.G.-> I've seen some folks like that take QUITE THE BEATING in history before & oddly, they don't seem to LEARN from history very well either.

Just the "nature of the beast"... & I do think it is whom I suspect @ the root of this & other 'world problems' now... the 10% that control 90% of this nation's wealth @ least (USA).

I mean, lol, do you think that "they" got their money TOTALLY honestly? LOL... man, I hope not.

Very often, anybody w/ HUGE wealth (or, bodies w/ huge wealth) have to STOMP others into the dirt, to get it... making enemies all the time along their way.

APK

P.S.=> I'd like to tell you all, something along the lines of "HOLD ONTO YOUR COPIES OF 2000/XP/SERVER 2003" but, it's only a matter of time before they don't get updated/upgraded anymore & won't run (or fully @ least) on the PC's of the future.

Sure, you can TRY to hold onto a machine that STILL functions w/ the older OS, but only a matter of time before it breaks down & you won't be able to find replacement parts for it too.

E.G.-> Someone (forum will remain unnamed) asked me for a copy of Os/2 recently, & I told them "I WOULDN'T RECOMMEND IT ON TODAY'S RIGS, BECAUSE I DOUBT IT HAS DEVICE SUPPORT FOR THEIR PARTS FULLY IF AT ALL NOW"

This is going to happen on the older Windows OS' too, given time. Damn shame this DRM crap.

I'll tell you 1 thing, were I Bill Gates (probably oversimplifying it, but here goes):

If the U.S. gov't., the RIAA, or anyone (like most governments unfortunately are via corruption, graft, or other forms of coercion & blackmail - another bought & paid for entity imo largely) tried to push MY company around, the way MS has been pursued?

LOL, I would have told them "Hey, Canada's next door - I can jump ship to them & I'd wager they'd take me with open arms, so SCREW YOU!"

Because, guys: After reading the above, & agreeing w/ AshenSugar's assessment of who is driving this? Well... I am pretty sure MY conclusion is correct, & it's NOT "purely Microsoft" ALONE, here guys, FAR from it! apk
 
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#20
Have you ever read Atlas Shrugged APK? I think you'd like it :) .
 
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#21
Have you ever read Atlas Shrugged APK? I think you'd like it :) .
I probably would... but, I am not sure what it's about - what I do know is, what I see around me... doesn't take a "major brain" to see what is going on out there today, especially for as long as I have been around (which is more than most folks here have been).

Sure, I can be wrong like anyone else, but, I really DO NOT THINK SO, once I saw INTEL & HOLLYWOOD in the SAME SENTENCE, & seeing they are the major gainers from this OUTRIGHT CRIPPLING of this OS family in this manner.

And yes, this IS crippling it, so certain parties can maintain a HUGE profit center.

I am NOT against somebody making a profit, far from it, it helps them survive, & in a local economy, sooner or later, that profit or part of it, helps YOU survive too... an engine really of sorts.

BUT, if you're going to try to tell me "this car runs as well as your last one, better in fact, but doesn't have the same abilities as your last one" well, I am going to change auto makers!

APK

P.S.=> Above all else - IF you think MS, as long as they are USA based, doesn't have to "play ball"? YOU ARE DEAD WRONG!

Speaking as a geek - I do NOT like seeing something that should be better than the last version be less in ANY way... this IS less, on DRM & OpenGL!

Microsoft would make money, either way, if they left that stuff as is, like it is in XP for instance... but, I have a feeling they are being coerced by greedy mgt. falling for a pack of CRAP being fed them, or other forms of coercion (much as the gov't. applied to them)... because this makes NO SENSE to me, from a business standpoint @ all for MS... none!

Other than negative press, & it's justified on this account!

IF this keeps up? I'll run Windows Server 2003 as long as I can, on equipment that will run it that is (for how long that is? I can give you a guesstimate, based on Os/2: Around 5-10 yrs. or so, before it doesn't "keep up" on driver updates anymore & security patches, on a guess comparison)

Then, I'd probably actually 'jump ship' to Linux @ some point, because crippling an OS @ ANY LEVEL, vs. its predecessors is helping SOMEBODY profit @ my expense, & give me less than I paid for (especially in terms of computer operating systems, vs. their LAST version)...

I won't stand for that, not for MY monies! apk
 
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#22
the NSA was used to help make vistas DRM hows that make you feel?

do you really "them"/"they" in your personal pc?
 

Namslas90

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#23
OH, I dunno about that...

E.G.-> I've seen some folks like that take QUITE THE BEATING in history before & oddly, they don't seem to LEARN from history very well either.

Just the "nature of the beast"... & I do think it is whom I suspect @ the root of this & other 'world problems' now... the 10% that control 90% of this nation's wealth @ least (USA).

I mean, lol, do you think that "they" got their money TOTALLY honestly? LOL... man, I hope not.

Very often, anybody w/ HUGE wealth (or, bodies w/ huge wealth) have to STOMP others into the dirt, to get it... making enemies all the time along their way.

APK

LOL, I would have told them "Hey, Canada's next door - I can jump ship to them & I'd wager they'd take me with open arms, so SCREW YOU!"

Because, guys: After reading the above, & agreeing w/ AshenSugar's assessment of who is driving this? Well... I am pretty sure MY conclusion is correct, & it's NOT "purely Microsoft here guys, FAR from it! apk
So true, most of them also ripped off the public to get rich.

Canada, yeah they would.

I agree with both of you, but you gotta think, who's the "they" behind the one's your looking at, to see what I'm talking about. Don't forget that sales increase many incomes, not to mention taxes!!
 

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#24
the NSA was used to help make vistas DRM hows that make you feel?

do you really "them"/"they" in your personal pc?
I don't even like windows or anybody else starting my I-net connection until I want to. It's my computer(I paid for it), why do they get to tell it what to do and not me.
 
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#25
I'm done editing THIS post now, finally!

Sorry for the rant, but WE ARE OFF ON A TEAR now, lol... so, have @ it!

the NSA was used to help make vistas DRM hows that make you feel?
Yes, I'm aware of that per SLASHDOT, recently... & I don't TRUST it either, why?

This may sound a bit weird coming from me, because I really LIKE personal computing, but I figured there'd come a day when crap like this started... both on OS crippling (which I saw after NT 3.51 w/ "certain programs" that no longer WORK on any OS since, & when I want to use them? I have to load it again, believe it or not, & NOTHING to do w/ modern OS diff.'s imo, certain functions on IP were shut off for various programs, I am CONVINCED of it since NT 3.5x) & 'backdoors' into our homes via them!

So, the past 5 yrs, now or so?? I have been gathering what I can as far as good freewares & such for THIS series of OS as it stands now, for the day I may leave the net (@ home @ least, silly as that may sound).

do you really "them"/"they" in your personal pc?
I think they're in there already, IF they want to be & @ 1/100th of the difficulty there is for hacker/cracker types of 'classic' nature!

(and, if you're online via the public internet)

IMO, & this IS part of the doubtless "unspoken terms" of the US Gov't. pressure on MS the past few years now...

E.G.-> IBM mainframes, not exact here, but point is:

It used to be iirc, that if you pressed something like Ctrl+XYZZY you had insta-admin access @ a console terminal in them, believe it or not, & this was NOT well known until WAY later!

(Along w/ other things IBM hid, & MADE THEIR ENGINEERS KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT ABOUT, see "John Titor" online, about how some of this came out (way out topic though, or is it))...

Remotely? I don't doubt this either... this world & HOW IT WORKS, sometimes (especially this week, on a personal level for me) really disgusts me at times.

I'm sort of an idealist I suppose, & believe that humanity is essentially a noble creature as a whole usually, working to better our lifestyle & conditions thereof & we have (heck, we eat & live in homes FAR better than kings a few hundred years ago did imo)... but, @ what price sometimes?

LOL, we're being sold "homeland security" for what? Less personal privacy & freedoms?? Homeland security is A LOT like you said about stopping every terrorist in the world in your thread about GAME COPY PROTECTION (doesn't work anyhow, not really, not IMO!).

It's easy to be a sneaky bastidge & pull terrorist crap, or as a pal of mine says "IT IS EASY TO BE BOGUS & DESTRUCTIVE FOR REVENGE!" & he's right. How do you fight an invisible opponent?

Sometimes? You HAVE to be willing to take a beating to ensure your safety, or deal one out... Easy for me to say though, I don't have a family to worry about that keeps MY mouth shut, so for somebody like me? Well, it's easy to square your shoulders in folks' like my case & thus, to NOT leading a "life of quiet desperation" much of the time...

However, this has gotten my butt kicked a few times though, I'll admit that. This week SORT OF being one of them (not bad, but enough to upset me on a personal level in real life, & NO, I won't get into it (not legal stuff, I'll give you that much, but more on a MONEY level, only)).

BUT, always worth it to me: I couldn't live w/ myself otherwise for the MOST part (yes, sometimes we ALL have to keep our mouths shut, for awhile @ least to SOME things, others not I suppose).

APK

P.S.=> Heck, now, more than ever? I am CONVINCED that "Dogs are better people, than people" because when I look around me? I want to walk away from everything, & just learn to live on a mountain like a hermit or something, lol...

Don't mind me, but reading ALL of this? Upset me a great deal, because I see something that OUGHT to be BETTER, on ALL levels, not being so... & only a matter of time, if I choose to stay in this field/ballcourt, before I have to 'succumb' to it as well... apk
 
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