Water Chiller - that's her modified for Subzero ;-)

[Mr.Scott]

Ice isnt conductive. But it doesnt turn to ice (frost) straight away.

There's a period (time lapse) before it turns to ice where the moisture could still do damage. Also not all areas are frosty. The VRM side of the car tends to accumulate moisture while the I/O side gets frosty.

So i still need to insulate.

As a sub zero bencher for more than a decade, I'm gonna give you a little lesson right now. That frost/ice you see on your board is only on the surface. It doesn't go all the way to the board. Components on the board make enough heat to keep whatever's around them in a liquid state. Doesn't matter how minute it is, it's still wet.....and conductive. That is why you insulate.

 

[Nicholas Peyton]

You mean 2189MHz max boost?

No i meant 2303 MHZ (pascal goes up in 13 mhz increments) so 2303 MHZ ;-)

I am rock solid stable at 2265 MHZ. Stable at 2277 mhz. Managed an OCCT run (with FPS limiter enabled) at 2190. And i got a few seconds (non stable) run at 2303 MHZ (long enough to say I broke through, maybe) ;-)

All only possible due to the chiller. Before the chiller i was only semi-stable at anything over 2151 MHZ.

As a sub zero bencher for more than a decade, I'm gonna give you a little lesson right now. That frost/ice you see on your board is only on the surface. It doesn't go all the way to the board. Components on the board make enough heat to keep whatever's around them in a liquid state. Doesn't matter how minute it is, it's still wet.....and conductive. That is why you insulate.

I hear what you're saying.

@Mr.Scott got to -20 using the same model of chiller (?)

I'm interested in the comment you made earlier about pointing an extra fan.

However the compressor is actually cold (with frost appearing on the bottom of it) not warm... (at low temps) just wanted to know if you wanted me to aim the fan at the compressor (knowing it would travel through the unit helping the fan on the Condenser), but save explaining all that, you just asked me to point a fan at the compressor?
Then again; you did mention the compressor getting warm; which it was not...

I also recall (faintly); when first begun this little journey a few months ago and you mentioned having the same model as me (or did have at some point).. was that just a Hailea (maybe a more powerful one) or was it the Hailea HC-500a? Can you recall whether your model used the newer more environmentally friendly R134a gas or the older R22?

The reason I'm curious; is because I have enjoyed this journey. But I don't want it to end here.

I either need to find a way to get -20 out of my Chiller; or go on and begin researching something else....

Where did you go after your Chiller experience? What was the next step for you?

As a new "bencher" I can't get to -10 and just stop...

But I also only paid £200 for my Chiller. I'm willing to spend that again.. maybe a bit more... but nothing insane.

I don't have any friends who work in the air-conditioning industry.

 

[Mr.Scott]

It was Hailea, but the model numbering was different then, but mine was a hair smaller than yours. Probably why my compressor ran warm. Anyhow, R22. It was not a new model by any means.

After chiller, I went to dice for a while. Single stage was too expensive back then.
That was when socket A was raging. This was normal prep back then, eraser front and back, plus dielectric in the socket.

 

[Nicholas Peyton]

It was Hailea, but the model numbering was different then, but mine was a hair smaller than yours. Probably why my compressor ran warm. Anyhow, R22. It was not a new model by any means.

That explains it then; R134a takes a "significant" efficiency loss after -7c.

That loss due to R134a gas, I fear is what is holding me back (compared to your R22 model).

All of the Haileas (even the bigger ones) appear to run off R134a now.

They still list the biggest one as being under R22 on the Hailea website ; but the variants available in the U.K (from online shops) aren't listed on Haileas site; and feature slightly changed model names (I.E. 2200 instead of 2000).

I think it's illegal to sell any refrigeration equipment in the U.K now that uses R22.

So that begs the question; if I upgraded to a bigger model; I may still not get down low enough to justify the cost (seeing as they are all limited by this R134a gas).

Which is a shame; because I could have sold my HC-500a to offset the cost of an upgrade.

The U.K is a relatively cold & wet country. Second hand air-conditioning parts are probably also, much harder to come by here.

I couldn't even find a 2nd hand compressor on Ebay as powerful as the one in my Chiller. (unless I imported from the U.S; even then; I wouldn't have the first notion of how to rig everything up to build a cooler).
I might have to call it a day with the Chiller; and start looking into DICE... unfortunately it does seem to require a lot more attention (rather than insulate it and forget it).

Still; it would be interesting to see how far down people have got using bigger; R134a chillers.

Does the boiling point of the gas matter?;

The boiling point of R134a is -26.3c

R22 boiling point is -40.9c

/\ that may be important when *trying* to shop for an upgraded Chiller. If it runs off R134a it's a definite no-go; no matter how powerful it is.... (if the boiling point of the gas matters).

 

[FireFox]

Hailea HC chillers have strong metal chassis with a housing of
contemporary design,ensuring the chiller does not look out of place in
any surroundings and as with other cooling units,our chillers-the HC
series use the environmental friendly refrigerant R134a.

Lower noise design,whilst the digital temperature ontroller ensures
that the selected temperature is maintained.

The rate of flow is decided according to the max jet of the pump

(immersible power filter) and the circulation equipment.

HC-2200BH

2000L

2HP

R22/R407C

220~240V(110~120V)

3000~6000L/H

50Hz(60Hz)

47kg

7A

634×468×590mm

 

[Nicholas Peyton]

Hailea HC chillers have strong metal chassis with a housing of
contemporary design,ensuring the chiller does not look out of place in
any surroundings and as with other cooling units,our chillers-the HC
series use the environmental friendly refrigerant R134a.

Lower noise design,whilst the digital temperature ontroller ensures
that the selected temperature is maintained.

The rate of flow is decided according to the max jet of the pump

(immersible power filter) and the circulation equipment.

HC-2200BH

2000L

2HP

R22/R407C

220~240V(110~120V)

3000~6000L/H

50Hz(60Hz)

47kg

7A

634×468×590mm

It says in the description at the top its R134a.

But the specs at the bottom claim R22/R047C (ro47c doesn't even have its own boiling point and i can't seem to be able to find anything on google listing the boiling point when a blend of both are used).

More i think about it. It makes sense that efficiency drops the colder (closer) you get to the gas's boiling point; as if you reach that point (cold enough) the gas would cease to boil and evaporate altogether.

Same as water boiling on a stove, the hotter it is the faster it boils off.

So the colder you are in a chiller the harder its got to work (or the more boiling/evaporating cycles you've got to make to lose the same heat.

Its when the gas boils & evaporates that it picks up the heat;

So to summarise that. The lower the boiling point of the gas (refrigerant) used. The more efficient it is at lower temperatures. And R134a just doesn't cut it.

That explains why Mr. Scott was able to get lower, despite having a slightly less powerful machine. Because it ran on R22 gas. Which has a boiling point of -40.9c
At temps above sub-zero (what the chillers were intended to do) this efficiency loss would be negligible.

But for my sub-zero modified chiller, its a big performance drop.

You do indeed, learn something new every day. ;-)

UPDATE:

Just confirmed my hypothesis in my last message with someone more knowledgeable on this, than me. I was right.

The closer you get to the boiling point of the refrigerant used; the less efficient the system becomes. That's also why the temperature drops faster from 30c to 20c than it does from 10c to 0c.

I need to look for a chiller that uses a gas with a lower boiling point. Maybe R404; which has a boiling point of -46c at normal atmospheric pressure.

 

[Random Murderer]

UPDATE:

Just confirmed my hypothesis in my last message with someone more knowledgeable on this, than me. I was right.

The closer you get to the boiling point of the refrigerant used; the less efficient the system becomes. That's also why the temperature drops faster from 30c to 20c than it does from 10c to 0c.

I need to look for a chiller that uses a gas with a lower boiling point. Maybe R404; which has a boiling point of -46c at normal atmospheric pressure.

R404 and R407c would both be decent choices. R407c is supposed to be a more environmentally-friendly replacement for R22, but you may still have trouble finding it.
The boiling point for R407c is -43.6C, btw. I saw in an earlier post you were having trouble finding it.

 

[Nicholas Peyton]

R404 and R407c would both be decent choices. R407c is supposed to be a more environmentally-friendly replacement for R22, but you may still have trouble finding it.
The boiling point for R407c is -43.6C, btw. I saw in an earlier post you were having trouble finding it.

What about something like this?

It looks identical to my Water Chiller (except I can't see a water tank / not sure about the evaporator). And runs off R404. -Single phase. (I've not performed any research on single phase yet).

Still has 1500W + cooling power at -5c and under 500 bux.

There's also a 1/4 HP unit there that still has 365w cooling power at -20c.. which would be perfect (its half the price).

I need to do a bit of research before I phone them, so I at least *sound like* I know what I'm talking about.

Not sure what it means by "liquid receiver".

If anyone can give me a 'steer' please do Would appreciate that very much

 

[revin]

To change gas would been very extensive undertaking. As with auto ac unit's the oil has to be completely removed and sizing of various tubing and valves must be changed.
Very few models were able to switch over when R22 was phased out. But on some it was possible to do but at a reduced efficacy. Also the size of the exchanger was a big issue thus needing a lot of math to get the R134 even close to working as R22. Maybe look for a way to see if the exchanger can be enlarged to help increase the gas change as on most freezers and refrigerators but most country's laws you must be able to capture and vacuum to recharge the system.
Speaking of which the vacuum is very important for proper operation especially as where you are now to get lower temps if it's just border line it will interfere/limit how well the gas will operate.
If there's a way to check the charge it will give you some data on how to proceed with what you have now.

Our van we had back in the mid 90's had a re-man pump installed but it would only go down to 4, spec was like 0-8. Thing is the original was able to pull 0-3, but also had trouble on high side. I put it back on for a while waiting for a factory new replacement since the re-man could not get cold enough. Just that small difference was huge effect on cooling.
Looking t the size of the last pic and comparing jaggerwilds with yours it could be that is the limit of your exchanger to handle. Probably easer to just get the newer unit you posted.
Any way absolutely awesome job on getting done with what you have now

 

[Nicholas Peyton]

Thanks

I am at a crossroad now; I need to make a decision to continue pursuing the Water Chiller route (and research how to rig a R404 condenser unit (like in the picture above) with a water tank.
or
Follow in Mr Scotts footsteps (and advice/inspiration) and start looking into DRY ICE. (also a million thanks, to everyone else, who has posted and contributed to my thread)

Not sure what way I'm going to go yet; but my journey from rookie to 'intermediate cooler/bencher' definitely isn't ending here.

P.S.
I also just created an account at hwbot.

It's 2c outside tonight; I'm thinking of moving the Chiller to the window (to be seated at the Windows height) and window WIDE OPEN) to see if I can beat -10c.

 

[FireFox]

It's 2c outside tonight; I'm thinking of moving the Chiller to the window (to be seated at the Windows height) and window WIDE OPEN) to see if I can beat -10c.

2 days ago we had -14c, that would be the right temperature for you

 

[dorsetknob]

2 days ago we had -14c, that would be the right temperature for you

you offering Nick Board and lodging for the winter
i suppose its cheaper than Nome AK (-6c tonight ) or Nuuk Greenland ( -13c tonight )

 

[Nicholas Peyton]

Lets see if this gets me to -20.

Ambient temp (for chiller) is now 20c cooler. Lets see if that can translate into at least another 10c for me.

The chillers condenser fan, will be blowing cold air through the chiller and into my house.

Dew point 1.4c
Temperature (ambient) 6.4c

 

[Nicholas Peyton]

That tubing looks like it could shatter into a hundred pieces.


Got another 4c out of her with 20c lower ambient temp. (Ambient of 3.5c)

So -14c best recorded sub-zero on a Hailea HC 500a.

-10c best recorded at an ambient of 24c

 

[FireFox]

the amount of coolant in the loop is not going to make a bit of difference how well the pump preforms or how cold your loop will get, its a matter of how many pressure dropping components your using and/or the amount of vertical pressure your putting on your pump. those pumps you guys are using are usually rated to about 8/10 feet of head pressure which is seriously a lot of pressure for a 12v pump. flow rate is not everything when it comes to liquid cooling of any caliber. you have to remember that the more flow rate you put in a loop the less time the coolant also has to dissipate heat in the exchanger as well. you need to find balance in your loop, not everything is the same for every loop.

I have found this:

The chiller can only function properly if the cooling loop is equipped with a sufficiently powerful pump.

What would that mean?

If the water flow too slow the heat will sit longer on the CPU socket and if the water flow too fast it has less time to dissipate the heat

I am lost.

 

[jaggerwild]

Some of my best runs where with, window open and rad out of the window!!!My Phase doesn't or hadn't taken me too far cause under load on a 2011 6 core CPU it leveld out at -48, so my water cooler pretty much did what ever my Phase change could do. I can post the info or PM you Nick of a guy in Texas that made mine. He hangs out at extreme systems, he's not cheap though........

 

[FireFox]

Shit, i have asked something and you reply to @Nicholas Peyton

 

[Mr.Scott]

Shit, i have asked something and you reply to @Nicholas Peyton

I will answer your question.

It makes very little difference. As long as you have flow around 1.5 gpm you'll be fine. No less than 1.0 gpm.

 

[FireFox]

I will answer your question.

It makes very little difference. As long as you have flow around 1.5 gph you'll be fine. No less than 1.0 gph.

And how do i know that i have a flow of 1.5GPh?

 

[Mr.Scott]

Sorry for that typo, it's actually gpm not gph.
A stopwatch and a 1 gallon container will pretty much let you know your flow rate. Fill that bucket in a minute or less and you're good.

 

[FireFox]

I didn't get your theory, let's forget about it.

While Googling i have found this:

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/alphacool-vpp655-low-medium-or-high-rpm.203295/

What a coincidence, i am the OP

 

[Mr.Scott]

It's not rocket science. Time how long it takes your pump to fill a 1 gallon container. If it fills it in 1 minute, that's 1.0 gpm. So if you want 1.5 gpm you need to adjust your pump speed (if you can) to fill that same container 1 1/2 times in the same minute.

Honestly, you guys are way over thinking this. For a competitive bencher the 1-2c difference might make a difference, but for what you guys are doing 24/7 it doesn't matter.

 

[FireFox]

It's not rocket science. Time how long it takes your pump to fill a 1 gallon container. If it fills it in 1 minute, that's 1.0 gpm. So if you want 1.5 gpm you need to adjust your pump speed (if you can) to fill that same container 1 1/2 times in the same minute.

Thanks for the advice.

There is now way i will disassemble the loop just to fill a 1 gallon container in a minute

Honestly, you guys are way over thinking this. For a competitive bencher the 1-2c difference might make a difference, but for what you guys are doing 24/7 it doesn't matter.

Fair enough

Btw, the pump it's running at 2500rpm.

 

[Mr.Scott]

Thanks for the advice.

There is now way i will disassemble the loop just to fill a 1 gallon container in a minute

You asked. This is the easiest way.

Fair enough

Btw, the pump it's running at 2500rpm.

Honestly, you're fine.