What the hell is going on with game devs? (Gollum rant)

[Dr. Dro]

Well, yeah, though a key difference is that Unity is rarely used for AAA projects that are on the radar of the majority of people and end up causing widespread frustration when they launch.
Not that Gollum is an attempt at an AAA game - literally the only thing it has going for it is the brand. You could tell from the very first trailer that mediocrity is what it's headed for and not only in terms of budget...

There are exceptionally few really competent (at a technical level) Unity games, IMO. I would guess that the most advanced of them would be The Long Dark. There are great games made on Unity, such as Subnautica, but few if any are mechanically complex games with lots of maps, props, etc. - and even then, The Long Dark isn't exactly a bug-free game. I'd know, with almost 3000 hours on it...

 

[AusWolf]

But think of the planet, you heartless monster!

I'm not heartless, just honest (but still a monster). Thinking about the planet won't land 35k in my pocket (or a detached house with a garage above my head), that's just the harsh reality of things.

I honestly can no longer tell what's the reason behind these repeated disasters. Of course, them selling anyway is a very large motivator for them to keep coming, but is it conceit, as Yves Guillemot has shown in that article I linked? It's 11 years old, but he never retracted that statement and Ubisoft games are to this day some of the worst offenders in the heavy DRM department. Is it technical incompetence? Is it the suits that keep pushing for a release to meet shareholder demands? Do they just not bloody care?

I think they do care... to tick the RT box to be able to say "look how beautiful our shiny new game looks on your shiny new 4090!" Looks are prioritised so much these days that the overall quality of the game, including optimisation, is going down the drain. I'd say maybe that's what Nvidia pays devs to do, but if that were true, then these games wouldn't (or at least wouldn't have to) be so expensive.

Either way, consumers spending wisely, knowing their rights and pushing against censorship (such as blanket ban on ESRB AO games on consoles) - something that's going to be practically impossible when it comes to gamers - is about the only remedy I can think of. Until then, we'll have to rely on good faith coming from video game studios who can still be proud of products they've made.

It's not impossible. Putting games on your wishlist and waiting for a discount (or until they're patched) is the way, imo. Of course the game is gonna be a turd if everybody wants to play it yesterday at any cost.

 

[Vayra86]

I comfort myself with the fact that there are still great games on the horizon. I'm hoping they don't all fail; fact is, when shit goes mainstream, the floodgates are open and its just like pop music, eventually everything the crowd plays turns into a stale formula that is built on nothing but peer pressure.

The selling point here is supposed to be LoTR. This was never about making a fun game. People applaud Star Wars Jedi Survivor... I see another Gollum, to be fair. Much the same applies to Hogwarts and a slew of other Hollywood inspired bullshit. You're knee deep in this shit if you think this is what games are about. Time for a reality check. I mean even Hogwarts for all its hype is nothing more but the N-th installment of a theme park RPG with repetitive activities, let's face it, the rest is Harry Potter sauce.

 

[AusWolf]

I comfort myself with the fact that there are still great games on the horizon. I'm hoping they don't all fail; fact is, when shit goes mainstream, the floodgates are open and its just like pop music, eventually everything the crowd plays turns into a stale formula that is built on nothing but peer pressure.

The selling point here is supposed to be LoTR. This was never about making a fun game. People applaud Star Wars Jedi Survivor... I see another Gollum, to be fair. Much the same applies to Hogwarts and a slew of other Hollywood inspired bullshit. You're knee deep in this shit if you think this is what games are about. Time for a reality check. I mean even Hogwarts for all its hype is nothing more but the N-th installment of a theme park RPG with repetitive activities, let's face it, the rest is Harry Potter sauce.

I'm actually quite excited to play SW: Jedi Survivor because Jedi Fallen Order was good. I've got nothing against a light-hearted Harry Potter sauced theme park ride, either. Also, the idea behind Gollum isn't bad. Knowing nothing about how the game actually turned out (apart from its bad optimisation), I'd say it has the potential to be a quite compelling and emotionally deep game (whether it is or not, I don't know). These are all gonna be well-spent 10-quids once they go on discount, I believe. Until then, they're safe and secure on my wishlist.

But I get what you mean. Mainstreamisation is never good.

 

[RDNAuser]

I'm actually quite excited to play SW: Jedi Survivor because Jedi Fallen Order was good. I've got nothing against a light-hearted Harry Potter sauced theme park ride, either. Also, the idea behind Gollum isn't bad. Knowing nothing about how the game actually turned out (apart from its bad optimisation), I'd say it has the potential to be a quite compelling and emotionally deep game (whether it is or not, I don't know). These are all gonna be well-spent 10-quids once they go on discount, I believe. Until then, they're safe and secure on my wishlist.

But I get what you mean. Mainstreamisation is never good.

I agree that from idea to actual thing is not always translated well, I can see there was a good idea behind Gollum.

 

[Vayra86]

I'm actually quite excited to play SW: Jedi Survivor because Jedi Fallen Order was good. I've got nothing against a light-hearted Harry Potter sauced theme park ride, either. Also, the idea behind Gollum isn't bad. Knowing nothing about how the game actually turned out (apart from its bad optimisation), I'd say it has the potential to be a quite compelling and emotionally deep game (whether it is or not, I don't know). These are all gonna be well-spent 10-quids once they go on discount, I believe. Until then, they're safe and secure on my wishlist.

But I get what you mean. Mainstreamisation is never good.

Yeah I totally get that people play these games regardless of what they are - I mean, if a setting works for me I'd dive into them too and the mind then just makes the immersion work; I have this with most things Warhammer for example. Its just that Star Wars and Harry Potter are those specific examples where I'm not so much immersed but rather amused by all the horrible acting and movie material. Those newer Star Wars don't work for me either. Its too much formula too little originality or something I don't know. I love sci fi, but Star Wars has always had more of a sci fi parody-on-itself vibe to it. A bit like how those newer BMW cars are styled, its just comically sad how it keeps looking to redesign itself while trying to look the same, getting ever uglier as they go.

The whole Marvel universe has that same issue. I just can't help but see a failed Superman every time, in a different color or different T shirt, all fighting to look as silly as inhumanly possible. Its clear they release waaaay too much for anyone's own good. Compared to let's say a movie like Dune, its night and day, even if Dune also uses the tricks we see everywhere, the fact you simply don't get that yearly rehash of it makes it much more worthwile to see.

/Mainstream Rant over

 

[AusWolf]

Yeah I totally get that people play these games regardless of what they are - I mean, if a setting works for me I'd dive into them too and the mind then just makes the immersion work; I have this with most things Warhammer for example. Its just that Star Wars and Harry Potter are those specific examples where I'm not so much immersed but rather amused by all the horrible acting and movie material. Those newer Star Wars don't work for me either. Its too much formula too little originality or something I don't know. I love sci fi, but Star Wars has always had more of a sci fi parody-on-itself vibe to it. A bit like how those newer BMW cars are styled, its just comically sad how it keeps looking to redesign itself while trying to look the same, getting ever uglier as they go.

I mean, if you deconstruct any game to its core, you'll find the same everywhere: you go from point A to point B, make friends and enemies, collect stuff, and in most cases, you kill. That's it. There's nothing entertaining about any of it. Everything needs a secret sauce to work, whether it be Star Wars, Harry Potter, or anything new that we rarely see these days, unfortunately.

I agree about Star Wars and BMW, though. I used to be a fan, but I stopped liking both circa 2005. Disney Star Wars is a stale, dull, unimaginative franchise with a politically patronising undertone which I loathe. BMW is just sad and desperate to keep selling overpriced, shit cars, let's be honest. They both should stop because any further attempt is just plain embarrassing to look at.

 

[fevgatos]

Ok we can complain about Vram usage but like a game that looks worse than Mordor and brings a GPU like the 4090 to it's knee's is abnormal.

It's nvidias fault. This time it's not the Vram, they just didn't pack enough cores into the 4090. Boycott them

 

[Vayra86]

I mean, if you deconstruct any game to its core, you'll find the same everywhere: you go from point A to point B, make friends and enemies, collect stuff, and in most cases, you kill. That's it. There's nothing entertaining about any of it. Everything needs a secret sauce to work, whether it be Star Wars, Harry Potter, or anything new that we rarely see these days, unfortunately.

I agree about Star Wars and BMW, though. I used to be a fan, but I stopped liking both circa 2005. Disney Star Wars is a stale, dull, unimaginative franchise with a politically patronising undertone which I loathe. BMW is just sad and desperate to keep selling overpriced, shit cars, let's be honest. They both should stop because any further attempt is just plain embarrassing to look at.

Sure games are eventually all similar concepts but the execution is where the fun lies. A great example of that is Horizon Zero Dawn. I've seen it all a hundred times... the entire game concept, but the way they've executed all the things, is what makes it tick. Aloy's agility and mocap, she runs and climbs like you do in lots of other games, but it still feels a bit more special and immersive here. Shooting at things and getting the bits to fall off, we've shot bows everywhere but here it feels rewarding and punchy. As a result this is one of those rare games where I can just jump in for a half hour and enjoy the whole flow of 'doing the thing' for a while, enjoying those finer details in the gameplay.

To me thát is where the real gaming is at. Its when the secret sauce is not a cheap trick, but sprinkled all over the product to make it taste not like fast food, but a real meal.

It's nvidias fault. This time it's not the Vram, they just didn't pack enough cores into the 4090. Boycott them

It IS Nvidia's fault, who pushed RT to begin with? They've designed the perfect thing for devs and themselves to hide behind, and keep pushing to further hide their abysmal specs from the truth.

AI is another such thing and its next in line, when we finally get the memo that RT is just there to make you buy new product faster. Buzzwords. Matter of fact, you even already have that in camp green with DLSS. Meanwhile FSR looks near identical without said buzzwords and consoles sell games with games and not shitty graphical effects. Its so weird how all of this works!!!

 

[fevgatos]

Sure games are eventually all similar concepts but the execution is where the fun lies. A great example of that is Horizon Zero Dawn. I've seen it all a hundred times... the entire game concept, but the way they've executed all the things, is what makes it tick. Aloy's agility and mocap, she runs and climbs like you do in lots of other games, but it still feels a bit more special and immersive here. Shooting at things and getting the bits to fall off, we've shot bows everywhere but here it feels rewarding and punchy. As a result this is one of those rare games where I can just jump in for a half hour and enjoy the whole flow of 'doing the thing' for a while, enjoying those finer details in the gameplay.

To me thát is where the real gaming is at. Its when the secret sauce is not a cheap trick, but sprinkled all over the product to make it taste not like fast food, but a real meal.


It IS Nvidia's fault, who pushed RT to begin with? They've designed the perfect thing for devs and themselves to hide behind, and keep pushing to further hide their abysmal specs from the truth.

This has nothing to do with rt. At times, this game looks like it came straight out of the ps3. It's absolutely horrible.

EG1. Nobody that actually tested fsr and dlss has concluded that they are near identical.

A lazy port from consoles. Does run better on consoles -yet, ironically - even those reviewing it for a PS5 - deem it as PS3 worthy in terms of graphics (not utilizing the full potential of a PS5).

This just goes to prove - how huge can the impact of a poorly optimized game be.

It runs better on consoles? Some media haven't been able to review the game on a ps5 cause they get crashes to desktop every couple of minutes. On a PS5! Does it really run better?

 

[Vayra86]

This has nothing to do with rt. At times, this game looks like it came straight out of the ps3. It's absolutely horrible.


It runs better on consoles? Some media haven't been able to review the game on a ps5 cause they get crashes to desktop every couple of minutes. On a PS5! Does it really run better?

You say that, and yet, this exists in a release that is otherwise on the actual content/gaming front a complete and utter empty shell.

Time, money and effort went into making this. The real question is why. Nothing can run it. The only conceivable answer is marketing won dev time over making a proper product.
You see if you do project planning you've got some red lines, called 'MVP' (Minimum Viable Product). You design acceptance criteria to meet that MVP bottom line. What was it, here? Why did Epic + RT get on that list, before, say, making sure your camera works as intended, or the game is actually fun to play?

You get what you pay for.

 

[fevgatos]

View attachment 297621
You say that, and yet, this exists in a release that is otherwise on the actual content/gaming front a complete and utter empty shell.

Time, money and effort went into making this. The real question is why. Nothing can run it. The only conceivable answer is marketing won dev time over making a proper product.

You get what you pay for.

Again, RT is not the problem. A 4080 barely gets 60 FPS average without RT.

But I still don't get how it's nvidia fault. You realize amd has been investing into RT for like, 3+ years now right?

 

[Vayra86]

Again, RT is not the problem. A 4080 barely gets 60 FPS average without RT.

But I still don't get how it's nvidia fault. You realize amd has been investing into RT for like, 3+ years now right?

Its RT's fault. And AMD still isn't selling RT. They just tag along knowing that eventually you can't do without. But the primary focus isn't there in any way shape or form, RDNA3 proves this clearly.

I'm not even talking about the game's general performance. Just the presence of RT alongside the end state of the product. It shows where priorities have been during development.

 

[Klemc]

Its RT's fault. And AMD still isn't selling RT. They just tag along knowing that eventually you can't do without. But the primary focus isn't there in any way shape or form, RDNA3 proves this clearly.

I'm not even talking about the game's general performance. Just the presence of RT alongside the end state of the product. It shows where priorities have been during development.

Like GTX1660 ?!

 

[fevgatos]

Its RT's fault. And AMD still isn't selling RT. They just tag along knowing that eventually you can't do without. But the primary focus isn't there in any way shape or form, RDNA3 proves this clearly.

It's rts fault that the game looks like crap and performs like crap even without RT? What about TLOU? The game doesn't even have rt, why does that one perform like crap? How about forspoken? Should I keep going?

Ofc amd is selling rt. Have you watched any of their gpu releases? Their presentations are full of rt, both advertising their cards and the games made by their partnered developers. It all started back in 2020 with godfall

 

[AusWolf]

EG1. Nobody that actually tested fsr and dlss has concluded that they are near identical.

I did.

 

[fevgatos]

I did.

Was talking about reviewers, but sure. Fsr is only passable if you are okay with the sharpen. If you don't like an overly sharp image you are ducked, cause if you remove the sharpening from fsr it looks horrible.

 

[Vayra86]

It's rts fault that the game looks like crap and performs like crap even without RT? What about TLOU? The game doesn't even have rt, why does that one perform like crap? How about forspoken? Should I keep going?

Ofc amd is selling rt. Have you watched any of their gpu releases? Their presentations are full of rt, both advertising their cards and the games made by their partnered developers. It all started back in 2020 with godfall

We are in full agreement on the sorry state things release in. I'm just saying RT is another curtain for developers to hide behind - even regardless of its performance. Graphics have always been the initial selling point for gaming.

Like GTX1660 ?!

I don't understand what you mean.

I did.

I've been pixel peeping that comparison for Cyberpunk yesterday and I guess you really need to care a lot to spot the differences, I couldn't.

 

[AusWolf]

It's rts fault that the game looks like crap and performs like crap even without RT? What about TLOU? The game doesn't even have rt, why does that one perform like crap? How about forspoken? Should I keep going?

I think the point here is that it's RT's fault that the game devs prioritised the inclusion of RT instead of optimising the game, or making it look good with or without RT.

Like I said earlier, RT is basically a tickbox exercise. If your game has it, it'll definitely sell (we know it won't, but that's the mind of your average developer, by the looks of it).

Ofc amd is selling rt. Have you watched any of their gpu releases? Their presentations are full of rt, both advertising their cards and the games made by their partnered developers. It all started back in 2020 with godfall

RT started back in 2018 with Nvidia's Turing and the zero games that had RT back then. AMD is just falling behind.

Was talking about reviewers, but sure. Fsr is only passable if you are okay with the sharpen. If you don't like an overly sharp image you are ducked, cause if you remove the sharpening from fsr it looks horrible.

Both FSR and DLSS look considerably worse than a native resolution image (at least on my 1080p screen), but never mind.

My own opinion matters more to me than that of any reviewer. It's me playing the game, not them, after all.

 

[Klemc]

I think the point here is that it's RT's fault that the game devs prioritised the inclusion of RT instead of optimising the game, or making it look good with or without RT.

Like I said earlier, RT is basically a tickbox exercise. If your game has it, it'll definitely sell (we know it won't, but that's the mind of your average developer, by the looks of it).


RT started back in 2018 with Nvidia's Turing and the zero games that had RT back then.


Both FSR and DLSS look considerably worse than a native resolution image (at least on my 1080p screen), but never mind.

I never enable RT, but

 

[fevgatos]

We are in full agreement on the sorry state things release in. I'm just saying RT is another curtain for developers to hide behind - even regardless of its performance. Graphics have always been the initial selling point for gaming.


I don't understand what you mean.

And that's why I've been sorta defending the 8gb vram thing. Not cause I think a card in 2023 should release with that amount, but because the last like 10 games have released in such a sorry state the Vram of my card would be the last of my worries. When even my tuned overclocked 12900k with 7200 manually tuned ram can't offer a decent experience in those games (tlou, hogwarts, jedi) would I be worried about whether my card has 8 or 12 gb of vram?

Imagine what kind of cpus do people that buy 300 gpus have. My second pc with a 3060ti has a 3700x. In those games I mentioned, oh boy is the cpu dying on me.

 

[Vayra86]

And that's why I've been sorta defending the 8gb vram thing. Not cause I think a card in 2023 should release with that amount, but because the last like 10 games have released in such a sorry state the Vram of my card would be the last of my worries. When even my tuned overclocked 12900k with 7200 manually tuned ram can't offer a decent experience in those games (tlou, hogwarts, jedi) would I be worried about whether my card has 8 or 12 gb of vram?

Imagine what kind of cpus do people that buy 300 gpus have. My second pc with a 3060ti has a 3700x. In those games I mentioned, oh boy is the cpu dying on me.

Yeah its a good point, both are elements of insufficient dev time to make your product work as it should. @R-T-B essentially draws a similar conclusion when he says the pace of development is set too high to optimize as we would prefer. But there is a fundamental difference; one is the core of the game, the other is pure extra, you could delete RT and still play the whole game start to finish. And if you turn it around: its even more strange if you consider RT takes up yet more VRAM, on an already poorly optimized asset library that eats a lot of VRAM, to include it, right?

Still I don't think this has a lot to do with VRAM. You can still play at 8GB, you're just going to compromise heavily and it is only loosely related to 'game optimization'. Its not just about performance/FPS either, with many titles the whole gameplay loop, the mechanics, everything is just of questionable quality.

 

[AlwaysHope]

Wow, after reading through this thread, glad I get a kick out of playing a modded 17 yr old game. This new stuff sounds like a literal mess!

 

[Klemc]

That means, if the game is a crap, it will not have dozens of YT fullplay streams !

 

[Hyderz]

i sense a repeat of aliens colonial marines here... taken a lump sum of money and then give it to another company to make the game....
while the money is used to fund other projects... just like what gearbox software did