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Who'll be the better president?

Who'll be the better president?

  • Barack Obama

    Votes: 1,290 57.9%
  • John McCain

    Votes: 333 14.9%
  • But I want George W. Bush

    Votes: 177 7.9%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 429 19.2%

  • Total voters
    2,229
  • Poll closed .
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No one in Europe complains about taxes because you folk don't really have a way to fix the problem. Our constitution allows us to. And, you've been indoctrinated for 50 years of socialism.... the definition of "fair" has been redefined for you; rather than "equal", it means "take from the successfully to pay for stuff others who are less successful want or need, as defined by some wise government committee".
i dunno if i have to laugh or to cry. its quite evident that you have a very twisted view of Europe. As Tatty said

Lol, 50 years of socialism? I think you will probably find that in the last 50 years, in the leading EU member states that predominantly governments have been centre to the right, not to the left.
it isnt the definition of fair thats the problem here, but maybe the one of selfishness. What you seem to want is a bigger and bigger social gap that will destroy your society. we are already seeing this moral decay.
Once upon a time.... i heard of a country that was respected for its ideals of freedom, for the possibilities that it offered to its inhabitants. I heard that everyone there could have a second possibility and that money seemed to be growing on trees. Now i cant believe to that fairy tale. i see a country that needs the biggest army in the world to have some type of respect (better called fear, awe). I can only see a country where the soldiers torture their prisoners, and where hatred grows and grows, where the murders per year are more that in all Europeans coutries together. I see a mutilated and reactionary economy, where people has to secure loans to live.

The problem is that you are selfish. you dont look at the prosperity of your nation but only at your gains. And this will backfire on you. In fact it is backfiring on you.

"The Poors? Those who arent able to gain money cause they are lazy and stupid" NO, thanks.
And the concept of success is distorted too. In this money-based society who is rich is successful. I think that successful is someone that is happy with what he does in its life. The goal of life isnt making money, its being happy. thats rarely the same thing.
 
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Huh? Obama is a centrist. He isn't left by any meaning of the word. Get a ****ing clue.
Yeah, I just have to laugh when the repub/conservative folks call Obama a leftist or extremist. It just goes to show a rather complete lack of understanding of the terms. A social democrat isn't quite the same as a socialist...:banghead:
 
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I'm not saying they aren't important, but without a strong economy, you cannot have good education, environmental programs, healthcare programs. They all revolve around the state of the economy. Why do you think third world countries have such terrible healthcare, education, and environmental programs?
true. as i said (and you said too) it IS important, but it isnt the only thing someone should consider when voting for one of the candidates. I think we agree on this.
For example, i think that themes that aren benn discussed in this thread at all, such as environment (this is a theme that involves all us humans, and in which USA play the most important role, as it is one of the most polluting country - it hasnt even subscribed the kyoto protocol, if i'm right -) are as important as the economical one.
 
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I think these threads are useful and makes for great debates and can be very educational and people need to learn to disagree but not be disagreeable.
I agree.
And yes, sometimes you do educate an individual and change their mind. If this were not the case, companies would not spend $$$$$ on advertising...
 
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You dont know what you dont know, if you're far to the left you've not even the possibility to be anywhere near potential presidency in USA:nutkick: He's more social, that's different than socialism, and a complete other thing than being (extremist) left.
yeah, agreed. There isnt even a real socialist party in the USA, as there isnt one in UK, there is only one right handed ond one centered. In italy we are going this direction too (and i hate to admit this ;))
 
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i dont know, i suppose it has the potential to be educational but from what ive seen it usually boils down to name calling, lost tempers, etc. I dont see many people changing their minds as a result.
We shall see how this one turns out.
Where have you been? this has been going on 4 + days now, and there has been very little "flaming", and a lot of educating...

Just because a guy is a socialist does not mean I can't have a beer with him! :toast:
 
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Lol, 50 years of socialism? I think you will probably find that in the last 50 years, in the leading EU member states that predominantly governments have been centre to the right, not to the left.
By whos measure? Certainly not the US Constitution - and that's the measure I use, since it is THE supreme law in our land... the Democrat party here in the US is a cancer on this amazing document.
 

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Huh? Obama is a centrist. He isn't left by any meaning of the word. Get a ****ing clue.
Yeah, I just have to laugh when the repub/conservative folks call Obama a leftist or extremist. It just goes to show a rather complete lack of understanding of the terms. A social democrat isn't quite the same as a socialist...:banghead:
An analysis of "lifetime voting records," shows Obama as the most liberal Democrat in Congress, with a score of 84.3 after two full years in the Senate. The most liberal score possible was 99.

The study, released in March, 2007, by the National Journal, a respected inside-the-Beltway research report, places Obama even in front of Dennis Kucinich, with a lifetime score of 79.4.

Obama is THE MOST liberal member of the U. S. Senate. He is more liberal than 94% of the Senate on economic issues; 94% of the Senate on social issues; and 92% of the Senate on foreign issues. His composite "Liberal" score is 95.5%.

Biden is the 3RD MOST liberal member of the U. S. Senate. He is more liberal than 94% of the Senate on economic issues; 88% of the Senate on social issues; and 94% of the Senate on foreign issues. His composite "Liberal" score is 94.2%.

Both Obama and Biden are further to the left than Bernie Sanders, who comes in fourth. He is more liberal than 90% of the Senate on economic issues; 88% of the Senate on social issues; and 98% of the Senate on foreign issues. His composite "Liberal" score is 93.7% -- and Bernie Sanders identifies himself as a Socialist.

From: http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaPolitics.htm
Source: National Journal 2007 Vote Ratings

yeah, agreed. There isnt even a real socialist party in the USA, as there isnt one in UK, there is only one right handed ond one centered. In italy we are going this direction too (and i hate to admit this ;))
Your right, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be one SOON. In 1996, Obama received the endorsement of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) for the Illinois state senate seat. Obama is an associate of the Chicago branch of the DSA.
 
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Wile E

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So let those fucks take a pay cut. They are making 20-200 million dollars. Hell the guy that runs SQL live style cost him 30 million dollars a year just to live. Never in the history of business have the top people ever made as much money as they are now.

Top it all the jobs have went is with the open free trade that(under my understanding)that the republicans have done to us. The only thing we really trade is raw material then get back the goods. We can't pay our people 50 cents an hour like they can in China and other places in the world. Hell the Brits even make our helicopters for us. What we need is a more balanced trade system. It's just crazy, if you were a big business why would you not move to china? Pay your workers 25 cents 50 cents an hour if they they are even more lucky less than that, no EPA to deal with or no real regulated EPA that cost companies here tons of cash. It's a win win situation for a business to move there. Now if it was regulated with more restrictions it would be a lot better. Trade only so much, if over pay a tax. If you sell more than 70-80% here you have to meet out EPA guide lines to deal with us. Just how Bush opened up the truckers from Mex to us, bad idea. I don't know how it's all going to play out, people don't think about it but the do have educated people. Why run your top jobs here(like Bush has said we need to move on to other kinds of jobs)engineers and so forth. When you can get a guy in the neighboring county for 15k a year instead of what you have to pay him here 80k a year.


You could say the boom of Reagan's rule could of came from Carter he was right before him. In parts yes, and other parts no. There is always a sudden impact during their time in office, even more so if they have been in power for two terms. Clinton did well in his time in office. Lots of wars that didn't piss everyone off in America, and there's lots of other things as well.
But
You can't make me believe that Bush has not fucked up our economy. The first 4 years in office they were bad(911 did play a part in that), ask around with anyone that was in the market during those times. In my family(aunts uncles and so forth) lost millions in it. Most of it did come back during the small housing boom, but now everyone is scared to death. It doesn't help that all the baby boomers are all about to retire or are retiring and are scare to death of losing their retirement savings. So they are moving around money in odd spots or just pulling out all together which is also really messing with the money markets.


Besides republicans are all about deregulation deregulation and deregulation, and that's the problem that we are seeing now with the 700BILLION dollar ballout that you and me are going to have to pay. It does have to be done, I just think if they take the ballout they should be broken up into smaller companies because they are way to powerful monopoly size IMO.
Would you take a pay cut if there were other means to use to keep the same amount of money rolling in for yourself? No you wouldn't. It's not realistic at all to say "let them take a pay cut". You know it's not going to happen. Whether moral or not, that the way it works. Instead of taking a pay cut, they are going to cut spending in their businesses. It's already been proven tima and time again throughout history.

The point you are missing tho, is that it was during the Clinton administration that these bills to give out mortgages to families that clearly cannot afford them were signed. Which is a large contributing factor to the state of today's economy. He signed the bill that is causing this bailout.

Yes, as was said earlier, some economic changes take effect almost immediately. The immediate effect of Clinton signing that bill was the housing boom. You are now staring down the barrel of the long term effect. Funny how that works, isn't it?

And Cyber Druid made a very good point, it was a Republican controlled Congress at that time. So the republicans are guilty of it as well, but Clinton should've never signed that bill.

Let us not forget that Clinton also signed NAFTA. How many American jobs were lost because of that piece of legislation?

I still don't agree with Druid's take on trickle down economics, but this is one of those subjects that people just will never agree on.

Let me make a few things perfectly clear. I do not think Bush has done a good job in this presidency. I am not a straight ticket republican. I tend to agree with most Republicans on economic issues, but I agree with most Democrats on social issues. I think Reagan was a great president, but I think Clinton and both Bushes were not good presidents. I believe we are up the creek without a paddle regardless of who gets into office next. Both Obama and McCain are going to be terrible leaders, imo, so I am in no way supporting either.

Like I said, bring back Ross Perot. lol.
 
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Let me put this straight since this is really containing too much rubbish.

No one likes taxes, not in USA, not in Europe, not in Asia. But it's needed, and of course the government could do a lot about re-arranging their money transfers to actually reduce taxes. But if a government is not allowed to interfere with the free market etc, how would a government get its money the most logical way. Also we've not been indoctrinated with socialism, we've the choice to either vote socialism or liberalism, then we've the nationalist wings which actually add only, well, kick'n around against everything with no solid feedback. Then we've a mix of socialism and liberalism with a christian touch talking left and right with what ever (socialist or liberal) side got the most votes, then we've shattered parties about animals only, about christianity only etc, which add nothing.
The most "right" politician you europeans elected in the last 30 years is the new french president, Nicolas Sarkozy. Most (MOST!) europeans outside of france think the guy is a right wing nutcase, from my reading. Only the UK seems to like the guy much.


The defination of fair is a bit two sided in your story. So can I say that taking the land from the Indians was anything but fair (ironically they call it the land of the free). Nor was it to interfere in Kosovo, followed by a hypocrit anti-Russian move in Georgie. Also it's not fair to drive back Inuits for your special wanks up north. I can make a very long list, but I hope this makes the point where Im going to, 'fair' is an abstract definition and depends completely on the point of view since you for example dont see anything unfair in the above mentioned things.
And I did not at any one time say I approved of those things in the past. What I am saying and I will repeat is that it is unethical and immoral to initiate force against another to take what he has for the benefit of another. If a person on the street does it, it's robbery. So why should it be ok for a government to do it?
Also less succesfull? Again, this depends on the point of view. And indeed, as said earlier, I do not agree with taking from the rich for the poor. But this has nothing to do with being succesfull. Bush and McCain are rich, Ive yet to see anything succesfully in them. Russia wasnt rich, they were anyhow quite succesfull in quite a few things. Or replace Russia with China for that matter for a better comparison if you want. Money has nothing to do with being succesfull. You can be a succesfull worker or a succesfull thief and in both ways get rich, yet the thief isnt very liked because he didnt get it 'fair' although he just did his job? I dont agree with thieves (only when they were mysteriouly smart, I can only laugh then), but it's just how succesfull can be read. Or a thieve getting damn rich but getting caught after a few years was in your eyes more succesfull than a thieve just stealing enough to live as a normal person by stealing little things which never got caught?:wtf:
Ok, so you want to debate the semantics of the word Successful instead of the actual facts of my statement?

If a person has more money than someone else, he could be considered more successful (at accruing the basic tenants of life, liberty, and property...). Just because I have 3 big screen tv's in my house does not entitle another person to whine to the government for some of my money.

If you make stupid choices (drop out of school and have 3 babies before your 21 by 3 different men, for example) then you deserve what you got - you made your choice and the choice to give you something is mine only, not the g*d* governments.:cry:

I'm a very "constitutional libertarian", so belive me voting for McCain, well, disturbs my stomach. But you vote for the person closest to your beliefs, and in this case, a 2 trillion dollar difference in tax policy over 5 years? Yeah, that's closer to my belief.

Let me give you one further example. I personally believe that in the USA the "war on drugs" is simply a major assault on individual liberty. BUT if you choose to do drugs, and it ruins your health, then tough shit. You have no right to my earnings.
 
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yeah, agreed. There isnt even a real socialist party in the USA, as there isnt one in UK, there is only one right handed ond one centered. In italy we are going this direction too (and i hate to admit this ;))
When the policies of a party are socialist, it does not matter what banner they fly at their convention, they're socialists.

Your statement is like if I was wearing a badge that proclaimed me to be italian, but i'm not, but the badge says so so you must believe that I am??
 

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Where have you been? this has been going on 4 + days now, and there has been very little "flaming", and a lot of educating...
thats the surprising part.
 
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The point you are missing tho, is that it was during the Clinton administration that these bills to give out mortgages to families that clearly cannot afford them were signed. Which is a large contributing factor to the state of today's economy. He signed the bill that is causing this bailout.

Yes, as was said earlier, some economic changes take effect almost immediately. The immediate effect of Clinton signing that bill was the housing boom. You are now staring down the barrel of the long term effect. Funny how that works, isn't it?

And Cyber Druid made a very good point, it was a Republican controlled Congress at that time. So the republicans are guilty of it as well, but Clinton should've never signed that bill.
WileE, I'm glad you realize that the legislation you're talking about was passed through a REPUBLICAN House AND Senate before being signed by Clinton.
 

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By whos measure? Certainly not the US Constitution - and that's the measure I use, since it is THE supreme law in our land... the Democrat party here in the US is a cancer on this amazing document.
By my measure because I live in Europe, little point in measuring another whole continent by the way you catagorise and conduct your politics because the box dont fit, if your definition of "right" or republican is to the right of one of our politicians, what do you do? call him a socialist, there is a whole range of ideologies in between before you get there, life or politics isnt that straight forward.....I wish it was!

In the UK, we no longer have a party that can be called anything near socialist, lets call that a worlwide benchmark and not a US one :D
 

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What the hell do they need all that money for?
 
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What the hell do they need all that money for?
To build the best computer in the world, who ever gets the biggest e-penis score in Vantage becomes President.

Obviously.
 

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Wow, havent some of those donors gone bust?
 

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Wile E, yes he did sign in NAFTA but it was Bush's dad that started it. I never said that I'm against it, I just think that it should be more balanced out than it is now.


I don't agree with everything my party does, but over all I do. This is also something that I don't do for a living I catch bits and pieces and forum an opinion about it. The fact to myself is that we the American people never see the whole bill for the most part. We only get what the bill was called. They add all sorts of stuff in them to please the other party. That's what I hate the most about he voted for this and he voted for that because down deep you don't know what was in that bill as a whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement
NAFTA was initially promoted by politicians in the United States and Canada supportive of free trade, led by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. The agreement was pursued by business interests in all three countries[7] and opposed by labor, environmental, and other business interests, in all three countries.[8][9][10][11][12] The heads of state of all three countries signed NAFTA in December 1992, subject to ratification by the legislatures of the three countries.
In the United States, NAFTA was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993. Clinton's Trade Representative, Mickey Kantor, was a strong advocate of the treaty. Since the agreement had been signed by Bush under his fast-track prerogative, Clinton did not alter the original agreement, but complemented it with the aforementioned NAAEC and NAALC. After intense political debate and the negotiation of these side agreements, the U.S. House of Representatives passed NAFTA on November 17, 1993, by 234-200 vote (132 Republicans and 102 Democrats voting in favor; 43 Republicans, 156 Democrats, and 1 independent against),[13] and the U.S. Senate passed it on the last day of its 1993 session, November 20, 1993, by 61-38 vote (34 Republicans and 27 Democrats voting in favor; 10 Republicans and 28 Democrats against, with 1 Democrat opponent not voting -- Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND), an ardent foe of NAFTA, missed the vote because of an illness in his family).[14]
I don't know how far Bush got his version out the door either.
http://www.bilaterals.org/article.php3?id_article=1000


A good read
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/who_caused_the_economic_crisis.html
The Real Deal

So who is to blame? There's plenty of blame to go around, and it doesn't fasten only on one party or even mainly on what Washington did or didn't do. As The Economist magazine noted recently, the problem is one of "layered irresponsibility ... with hard-working homeowners and billionaire villains each playing a role." Here's a partial list of those alleged to be at fault:

* The Federal Reserve, which slashed interest rates after the dot-com bubble burst, making credit cheap.

* Home buyers, who took advantage of easy credit to bid up the prices of homes excessively.

* Congress, which continues to support a mortgage tax deduction that gives consumers a tax incentive to buy more expensive houses.

* Real estate agents, most of whom work for the sellers rather than the buyers and who earned higher commissions from selling more expensive homes.

* The Clinton administration, which pushed for less stringent credit and downpayment requirements for working- and middle-class families.

* Mortgage brokers, who offered less-credit-worthy home buyers subprime, adjustable rate loans with low initial payments, but exploding interest rates.

* Former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan, who in 2004, near the peak of the housing bubble, encouraged Americans to take out adjustable rate mortgages.

* Wall Street firms, who paid too little attention to the quality of the risky loans that they bundled into Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS), and issued bonds using those securities as collateral.

* The Bush administration, which failed to provide needed government oversight of the increasingly dicey mortgage-backed securities market.

* An obscure accounting rule called mark-to-market, which can have the paradoxical result of making assets be worth less on paper than they are in reality during times of panic.

* Collective delusion, or a belief on the part of all parties that home prices would keep rising forever, no matter how high or how fast they had already gone up.

The U.S. economy is enormously complicated. Screwing it up takes a great deal of cooperation. Claiming that a single piece of legislation was responsible for (or could have averted) the crisis is just political grandstanding. We have no advice to offer on how best to solve the financial crisis. But these sorts of partisan caricatures can only make the task more difficult.
 

CStylen

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Obama's Top Donors

McCain's Top Donors

Do you really think Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, Citibank, Lehman Brothers, and General Electric would be Obama's top donors if he was some kind of radical socialist? He's getting even more than McCain!
I'm not name calling, but Obamas voting record says enough for me (post #608). Something smells funny and it's not McCains old spice.

I'm sure we can all agree it was a bi-partisan effort that our economy is in the trouble it is. We need to focus on who can lead our country in the future, not point fingers at past mistakes.
 
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Yeah, I just have to laugh when the repub/conservative folks call Obama a leftist or extremist. It just goes to show a rather complete lack of understanding of the terms. A social democrat isn't quite the same as a socialist...:banghead:
who said a Democrat and a Socialist were the same. Obama calls himself a Democrat but his politicizes are Socialist, you can call wrap yourself in any title you want , but to quote Obama a pig wearing lipstick is still a pig. Acorn is a self proclaimed leftist group by it's founder the first community organizer,Saul Alinsky, who used extreme agitation to gain political notice to his causes. Obama actually was an instructor who taught this theory to members of Acorn. Which fronts as a group who helps the poor but as we know it engages in and has been convicted multiple times for voter fraud. Example the registered one guy to vote in 4 different counties. They are going around Ohio and gathering mentally ill and homeless people to vote early in Ohio for Obama. There are alligations they are paying them and other violations already.
 
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no - we just see our taxes actually doing stuff rather than funding a gigantic war. that is the difference here, the USA spends far too much on arms and "defence".

What does each candidate say about that - each choice may sway me. (if i actually lived in the US that is)

I'm a dual citizen, who's spent enough time in each country to know that your comment is nonsense. Maybe many decades ago, there would have been legitimate justification for the way taxes were administered, but those were different times, and that was a different socialism. What we have here now in the u.K. is far beyond that.

Big government is always a bad thing; it's just that for the States, it's a slap in the face to the Constitution; where as with us here, we've put up with it since the days of Kings and Queens (obviously 'government' had a different system then :))

So, it should be no surprise to us, that the government meddles in our lives, further increasing the 'nanny-state.' But much do we pay on taxes for tobacco? And why? Luxury tax? ;rolls eyes; WTF is a luxury tax? Maybe they should start taxing people who hire prostitutes..???

And let's not get started on the difference between oil barrel costs and what we actually pay at the pump thanks to taxes.


You are correct that the u.S. does spend far too much on arms, but only when it comes to arms overseas, where they don't belong at all; part of that money could be spent on a national defence, and the rest on ..well..things that matter.

Neither candidate will discuss it though, because it's one of the root issues of their economic disaster; the only person who really gave two shits on the matter is out of the running.


who said a Democrat and a Socialist were the same.
These days, liberalism has pretty much swallowed up anything that's not fairly conservative by nature. You can no longer be a 'middle of the road' democrat, or 'independant' without being swooped up by the liberal mongers who's only real goal is to try and up-root conservatism, so they can ride off in some rainbow colored chariot feeling mighty fine and guiltless about their pathetic lives whilst they finish turning the world upside down.

Hence, a democrat is pretty much a socialist in today's world.
 
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These days, liberalism has pretty much swallowed up anything that's not fairly conservative by nature. You can no longer be a 'middle of the road' democrat, or 'independant' without being swooped up by the liberal mongers who's only real goal is to try and up-root conservatism, so they can ride off in some rainbow colored chariot feeling mighty fine and guiltless about their pathetic lives whilst they finish turning the world upside down.

Hence, a democrat is pretty much a socialist in today's world.
:roll:

I would love to see your definition of liberal, conservative, and socialist.
 
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I already gave you the liberal definition.

A conservative would be a constitutionalist ideally.

Socialism is harder to pin down because of how it's been twisted every which way in the last eighty years, whether that be by Churchill and his 'new liberalism,' Marx and his furthere socialism - communism or the Nazis and their national socialism (which people seem to be utterly clueless about).
 
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I already gave you the liberal definition.

A conservative would be a constitutionalist ideally.

Socialism is harder to pin down because of how it's been twisted every which way in the last eighty years, whether that be by Churchill and his 'new liberalism,' Marx and his furthere socialism - communism or the Nazis and their national socialism (which people seem to be utterly clueless about).
Churchill, Marx, and Hitler :laugh: Are you kidding me? I mean, they were all relatively statist but with completely different ideologies.

:banghead:
 
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