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Who'll be the better president?

Discussion in 'TPU Frontpage Polls' started by W1zzard, Oct 1, 2008.

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Who'll be the better president?

Poll closed Oct 6, 2008.
  1. Barack Obama

    1,290 vote(s)
    57.9%
  2. John McCain

    333 vote(s)
    14.9%
  3. But I want George W. Bush

    177 vote(s)
    7.9%
  4. Don't care

    429 vote(s)
    19.2%
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  1. Odin Eidolon

    Odin Eidolon New Member

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    i dunno if i have to laugh or to cry. its quite evident that you have a very twisted view of Europe. As Tatty said

    it isnt the definition of fair thats the problem here, but maybe the one of selfishness. What you seem to want is a bigger and bigger social gap that will destroy your society. we are already seeing this moral decay.
    Once upon a time.... i heard of a country that was respected for its ideals of freedom, for the possibilities that it offered to its inhabitants. I heard that everyone there could have a second possibility and that money seemed to be growing on trees. Now i cant believe to that fairy tale. i see a country that needs the biggest army in the world to have some type of respect (better called fear, awe). I can only see a country where the soldiers torture their prisoners, and where hatred grows and grows, where the murders per year are more that in all Europeans coutries together. I see a mutilated and reactionary economy, where people has to secure loans to live.

    The problem is that you are selfish. you dont look at the prosperity of your nation but only at your gains. And this will backfire on you. In fact it is backfiring on you.

    "The Poors? Those who arent able to gain money cause they are lazy and stupid" NO, thanks.
    And the concept of success is distorted too. In this money-based society who is rich is successful. I think that successful is someone that is happy with what he does in its life. The goal of life isnt making money, its being happy. thats rarely the same thing.
     
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  2. TUngsten

    TUngsten

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    Yeah, I just have to laugh when the repub/conservative folks call Obama a leftist or extremist. It just goes to show a rather complete lack of understanding of the terms. A social democrat isn't quite the same as a socialist...:banghead:
     
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  3. Odin Eidolon

    Odin Eidolon New Member

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    true. as i said (and you said too) it IS important, but it isnt the only thing someone should consider when voting for one of the candidates. I think we agree on this.
    For example, i think that themes that aren benn discussed in this thread at all, such as environment (this is a theme that involves all us humans, and in which USA play the most important role, as it is one of the most polluting country - it hasnt even subscribed the kyoto protocol, if i'm right -) are as important as the economical one.
     
  4. Bigjohn

    Bigjohn

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    I agree.
    And yes, sometimes you do educate an individual and change their mind. If this were not the case, companies would not spend $$$$$ on advertising...
     
  5. Odin Eidolon

    Odin Eidolon New Member

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    yeah, agreed. There isnt even a real socialist party in the USA, as there isnt one in UK, there is only one right handed ond one centered. In italy we are going this direction too (and i hate to admit this ;))
     
  6. Bigjohn

    Bigjohn

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    Where have you been? this has been going on 4 + days now, and there has been very little "flaming", and a lot of educating...

    Just because a guy is a socialist does not mean I can't have a beer with him! :toast:
     
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  7. Bigjohn

    Bigjohn

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    By whos measure? Certainly not the US Constitution - and that's the measure I use, since it is THE supreme law in our land... the Democrat party here in the US is a cancer on this amazing document.
     
  8. CStylen

    CStylen New Member

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    An analysis of "lifetime voting records," shows Obama as the most liberal Democrat in Congress, with a score of 84.3 after two full years in the Senate. The most liberal score possible was 99.

    The study, released in March, 2007, by the National Journal, a respected inside-the-Beltway research report, places Obama even in front of Dennis Kucinich, with a lifetime score of 79.4.

    Obama is THE MOST liberal member of the U. S. Senate. He is more liberal than 94% of the Senate on economic issues; 94% of the Senate on social issues; and 92% of the Senate on foreign issues. His composite "Liberal" score is 95.5%.

    Biden is the 3RD MOST liberal member of the U. S. Senate. He is more liberal than 94% of the Senate on economic issues; 88% of the Senate on social issues; and 94% of the Senate on foreign issues. His composite "Liberal" score is 94.2%.

    Both Obama and Biden are further to the left than Bernie Sanders, who comes in fourth. He is more liberal than 90% of the Senate on economic issues; 88% of the Senate on social issues; and 98% of the Senate on foreign issues. His composite "Liberal" score is 93.7% -- and Bernie Sanders identifies himself as a Socialist.

    From: http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaPolitics.htm
    Source: National Journal 2007 Vote Ratings

    Your right, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be one SOON. In 1996, Obama received the endorsement of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) for the Illinois state senate seat. Obama is an associate of the Chicago branch of the DSA.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2008
  9. Wile E

    Wile E Power User

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    Would you take a pay cut if there were other means to use to keep the same amount of money rolling in for yourself? No you wouldn't. It's not realistic at all to say "let them take a pay cut". You know it's not going to happen. Whether moral or not, that the way it works. Instead of taking a pay cut, they are going to cut spending in their businesses. It's already been proven tima and time again throughout history.

    The point you are missing tho, is that it was during the Clinton administration that these bills to give out mortgages to families that clearly cannot afford them were signed. Which is a large contributing factor to the state of today's economy. He signed the bill that is causing this bailout.

    Yes, as was said earlier, some economic changes take effect almost immediately. The immediate effect of Clinton signing that bill was the housing boom. You are now staring down the barrel of the long term effect. Funny how that works, isn't it?

    And Cyber Druid made a very good point, it was a Republican controlled Congress at that time. So the republicans are guilty of it as well, but Clinton should've never signed that bill.

    Let us not forget that Clinton also signed NAFTA. How many American jobs were lost because of that piece of legislation?

    I still don't agree with Druid's take on trickle down economics, but this is one of those subjects that people just will never agree on.

    Let me make a few things perfectly clear. I do not think Bush has done a good job in this presidency. I am not a straight ticket republican. I tend to agree with most Republicans on economic issues, but I agree with most Democrats on social issues. I think Reagan was a great president, but I think Clinton and both Bushes were not good presidents. I believe we are up the creek without a paddle regardless of who gets into office next. Both Obama and McCain are going to be terrible leaders, imo, so I am in no way supporting either.

    Like I said, bring back Ross Perot. lol.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2008
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  10. Bigjohn

    Bigjohn

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    The most "right" politician you europeans elected in the last 30 years is the new french president, Nicolas Sarkozy. Most (MOST!) europeans outside of france think the guy is a right wing nutcase, from my reading. Only the UK seems to like the guy much.


     
  11. Bigjohn

    Bigjohn

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    When the policies of a party are socialist, it does not matter what banner they fly at their convention, they're socialists.

    Your statement is like if I was wearing a badge that proclaimed me to be italian, but i'm not, but the badge says so so you must believe that I am??
     
  12. KBD New Member

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    thats the surprising part.
     
  13. TUngsten

    TUngsten

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    WileE, I'm glad you realize that the legislation you're talking about was passed through a REPUBLICAN House AND Senate before being signed by Clinton.
     
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  14. Tatty_One

    Tatty_One Super Moderator Staff Member

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    By my measure because I live in Europe, little point in measuring another whole continent by the way you catagorise and conduct your politics because the box dont fit, if your definition of "right" or republican is to the right of one of our politicians, what do you do? call him a socialist, there is a whole range of ideologies in between before you get there, life or politics isnt that straight forward.....I wish it was!

    In the UK, we no longer have a party that can be called anything near socialist, lets call that a worlwide benchmark and not a US one :D
     
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  15. proletariandan

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    Obama's Top Donors

    McCain's Top Donors

    Do you really think Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, Citibank, Lehman Brothers, and General Electric would be Obama's top donors if he was some kind of radical socialist? He's getting even more than McCain!
     
  16. ShadowFold

    ShadowFold New Member

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    What the hell do they need all that money for?
     
  17. WhiteLotus

    WhiteLotus

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    To build the best computer in the world, who ever gets the biggest e-penis score in Vantage becomes President.

    Obviously.
     
  18. Tatty_One

    Tatty_One Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Wow, havent some of those donors gone bust?
     
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  19. DaMulta

    DaMulta My stars went supernova

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    Wile E, yes he did sign in NAFTA but it was Bush's dad that started it. I never said that I'm against it, I just think that it should be more balanced out than it is now.


    I don't agree with everything my party does, but over all I do. This is also something that I don't do for a living I catch bits and pieces and forum an opinion about it. The fact to myself is that we the American people never see the whole bill for the most part. We only get what the bill was called. They add all sorts of stuff in them to please the other party. That's what I hate the most about he voted for this and he voted for that because down deep you don't know what was in that bill as a whole.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement
    I don't know how far Bush got his version out the door either.
    http://www.bilaterals.org/article.php3?id_article=1000


    A good read
    http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/who_caused_the_economic_crisis.html
     
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  20. CStylen

    CStylen New Member

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    I'm not name calling, but Obamas voting record says enough for me (post #608). Something smells funny and it's not McCains old spice.

    I'm sure we can all agree it was a bi-partisan effort that our economy is in the trouble it is. We need to focus on who can lead our country in the future, not point fingers at past mistakes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2008
  21. trt740

    trt740

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    who said a Democrat and a Socialist were the same. Obama calls himself a Democrat but his politicizes are Socialist, you can call wrap yourself in any title you want , but to quote Obama a pig wearing lipstick is still a pig. Acorn is a self proclaimed leftist group by it's founder the first community organizer,Saul Alinsky, who used extreme agitation to gain political notice to his causes. Obama actually was an instructor who taught this theory to members of Acorn. Which fronts as a group who helps the poor but as we know it engages in and has been convicted multiple times for voter fraud. Example the registered one guy to vote in 4 different counties. They are going around Ohio and gathering mentally ill and homeless people to vote early in Ohio for Obama. There are alligations they are paying them and other violations already.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2008
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  22. newconroer

    newconroer

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    I'm a dual citizen, who's spent enough time in each country to know that your comment is nonsense. Maybe many decades ago, there would have been legitimate justification for the way taxes were administered, but those were different times, and that was a different socialism. What we have here now in the u.K. is far beyond that.

    Big government is always a bad thing; it's just that for the States, it's a slap in the face to the Constitution; where as with us here, we've put up with it since the days of Kings and Queens (obviously 'government' had a different system then :))

    So, it should be no surprise to us, that the government meddles in our lives, further increasing the 'nanny-state.' But much do we pay on taxes for tobacco? And why? Luxury tax? ;rolls eyes; WTF is a luxury tax? Maybe they should start taxing people who hire prostitutes..???

    And let's not get started on the difference between oil barrel costs and what we actually pay at the pump thanks to taxes.


    You are correct that the u.S. does spend far too much on arms, but only when it comes to arms overseas, where they don't belong at all; part of that money could be spent on a national defence, and the rest on ..well..things that matter.

    Neither candidate will discuss it though, because it's one of the root issues of their economic disaster; the only person who really gave two shits on the matter is out of the running.


    These days, liberalism has pretty much swallowed up anything that's not fairly conservative by nature. You can no longer be a 'middle of the road' democrat, or 'independant' without being swooped up by the liberal mongers who's only real goal is to try and up-root conservatism, so they can ride off in some rainbow colored chariot feeling mighty fine and guiltless about their pathetic lives whilst they finish turning the world upside down.

    Hence, a democrat is pretty much a socialist in today's world.
     
  23. proletariandan

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    :roll:

    I would love to see your definition of liberal, conservative, and socialist.
     
  24. newconroer

    newconroer

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    I already gave you the liberal definition.

    A conservative would be a constitutionalist ideally.

    Socialism is harder to pin down because of how it's been twisted every which way in the last eighty years, whether that be by Churchill and his 'new liberalism,' Marx and his furthere socialism - communism or the Nazis and their national socialism (which people seem to be utterly clueless about).
     
  25. proletariandan

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    Churchill, Marx, and Hitler :laugh: Are you kidding me? I mean, they were all relatively statist but with completely different ideologies.

    :banghead:
     
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