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Who'll be the better president?

Who'll be the better president?

  • Barack Obama

    Votes: 1,290 57.9%
  • John McCain

    Votes: 333 14.9%
  • But I want George W. Bush

    Votes: 177 7.9%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 429 19.2%

  • Total voters
    2,229
  • Poll closed .
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Again, there is nothing socialized about it. If the prison system were socialist then that would make the way the entire military and government is ran socialist. The best way to put it is a brick wall where the bricks are the businesses and the mortar is the government and functions of the government. Businesses do great at most things but there's a few things they just can't do (e.g. defense and highway systems). The GDP, through taxes, pay for the services that can't be privatized because directly, they don't make money. Government is to fill in the gaps businesses cannot or will not.

The only profit a prison makes is through labor (chain gangs and manufacturing) and they do not make much (not enough to pay for their shelter, food, medical, lawsuits, etc.). Even though they might be privately owned and operated, they're still getting 90% of their money from some form of government. That is in no way, shape, or how, socialist. It is merely filling a gap that can't be filled without outside capital.
Some prisons are indeed privately managed and operated... and i'd encourage COMPETITION between companies as to who can manage them best. If you do a crappy job, along comes company X to take away your contract....
 
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It is also inferior. When industries are private, they are in competition with other businesses that offer the same service. As such, they're always trying to out do each other. That worked great up until a few years ago when all this health insurance and lawsuit BS inflated all the healthcare costs. Eliminate the sources of price inflation and we go back to being #1.
To my knowledge though the US was never #1 when it came to healthcare. There are many good reasons why countries high up on HDI also have a healthcare system run by the government. The other side of the coin behind capitolism is price gouging. Regardless of how lean private sectors try to make things theres still the rich executives that need to be paid. Just because theres competition doesn't mean its going to be cheaper than a not-for-profit alternative.
 
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FAIL.
You're quoting a progressive (psudo-socialist) website for that info? well, here are the facts from the horse's mouth:
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/19ba2f1c-c03f-4ac2-8cd5-5cf2edb527cf.htm
FAIL.
Your quoting a politician's (who's trying to be elected president) campaign website as pure fact? That's laughable. Most section's start w/ "John McCain believes".:rolleyes: The article, although you for some reason think b/c it is not from your end of the political spectrum it is completely invalid, offers an outside, scholastic analysis of the plan. Right or wrong, it holds more water than your link.
 

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To my knowledge though the US was never #1 when it came to healthcare. There are many good reasons why countries high up on HDI also have a healthcare system run by the government. The other side of the coin behind capitolism is price gouging. Regardless of how lean private sectors try to make things theres still the rich executives that need to be paid. Just because theres competition doesn't mean its going to be cheaper than a not-for-profit alternative.
Two years ago, I would have had to go 250 miles and pay $40,000+ for a stone removal operation. Now I can go 40 miles and pay $2500 for the exact same operation. That is capitalism at work. :p

FAIL.
Your quoting a politician's (who's trying to be elected president) campaign website as pure fact? That's laughable. Most section's start w/ "John McCain believes".:rolleyes: The article, although you for some reason think b/c it is not from your end of the political spectrum it is completely invalid, offers an outside, scholastic analysis of the plan. Right or wrong, it holds more water than your link.
I can't find any sources that aren't biased that compare the plans...

This is all I could find it isn't very thorough at all:
http://www.columbiaspectator.com/node/56347

Judging by the back and fourth, I think both plans would work (they both expand the safety net); however, their approach differs vastly: one involves expanding government healthcare; the other involves finding the best healthcare plan for you and help you pay for it. I made it clear which I think is best. :p
 
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Two years ago, I would have had to go 250 miles and pay $40,000+ for a stone removal operation. Now I can go 40 miles and pay $2500 for the exact same operation. That is capitalism at work. :p
So is illegitimate claims rejections, FDA rushing unready/untested drugs to the market, once wealthy individuals filing bankruptcy as result of an incident outside of their own fruition (healthcare related), ect. Other results of capitalistic healthcare. Good and bad to everything. :ohwell:

I can't find any sources that aren't biased that compare the plans...

This is all I could find it isn't very thorough at all:
http://www.columbiaspectator.com/node/56347

Judging by the back and fourth, I think both plans would work (they both expand the safety net); however, their approach differs vastly: one involves expanding government healthcare; the other involves finding the best healthcare plan for you and help you pay for it. I made it clear which I think is best. :p
Yeah you probably won't find anything totally unbiased. That would be an impossibility. Still, an outsiders scholarly paper of analysis holds more water than a campaign site, regardless of affiliation.
 

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There can't be good without something bad to compare it against. ;)

Inevitably, some will fall through the cracks and in those few cases is when government needs to step up. The idea is to get people back on their feet again so they can get back to paying taxes again. XD
 
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There is always two opinions on every subject, one in favor and one against. Likewise, there is only a handful of issues that are vote-deciding at each election (like this general election is all about the economy). You really only need two parties. There are other parties like the Libertarian, Constitutionalist, and Green party but the only areas they differ is in the subjects that aren't that important right now. As such, people vote for the majority party that is most in-line with their beliefs. As long as there is more than one party and the willingness for people to vote are split relatively even, the system works. Problems arrise when there is just a single-party system.
There is not supposed to be two sides of an issue. Especially now with the economic issue people only look at the economical aspect of the candidate. That's just stupid.

In a (more) democratic country you've more larger parties and a few smaller ones which often dont have a real role. But those larger parties can form up in total and form a government and balance each others ideas (if not all the elected parties actually were from the same side, but that barely happens).

Now people are going to make a short term choice... There's no point in doing that.

There is a difference between military, terrorist, and civilian. There is also a difference between accidental and intentional.
Indeed, people fighting USA forces are no terrorists per se but could be soldiers as well. And Im pretty sure the USA army did not get in Iraq Serbia/wherever by accident:wtf:

I already stated in this thread that bin Laden had a rogue army with no war to fight. Because Saudi Arabi came to USA to deal with the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait instead of bin Laden, bin Laden got furious and declared war on USA.
That's a weird story really, especially since Bin Laden already did attacks on USA before the Iraq/Kuwait war.

What about this, Bin Laden and USA had a deal to fight together, USA did promises but never made those come true, pissing of Bin Laden? Seriously, current situation and 9/11 are a bit deeper than your argument.

It's just like police--you don't like them unless you need them. Of course they don't like our pressence there which is why they are going to gradually draw down the US troop presence; however, if the enemy steps up efforts to inflict pain, we may have to bulster the troop count to deal with it. As stated before, while on the defense, your enemy decides your actions.
Why wouldnt I like the police? Only if they arrested me or whatever, but otherwise I dont give a fuck what they're doing. Apparently those people want USA out no matter what. Besides that there's still a huge group in Iraq who support Hussein and if possible would re-elect him.

Has nothing to do with "ideology." A lot that commit suicide see something that they can't erase from their mind be it accidentally shooting a civilian or piles of corpses. War is ugly and some just can't take it. They feel that the only way to free their mind is to die. Only one soldier, that I know of, was going to "commit suicide" as a weapon and he was dishonarbly discharged and considered a defector--the enemy. I don't know what happend to him since.
Maybe he was sent to USA's concentration camps:p

You seem to read things with different contexts. Of course those soldiers dont say "Hey lets commit suicide" and then Leroy into a hostile camp. Point is that the whole war against the Taliban is one big suicide operation because you wont gain anything and only lose it. That's what I mean.

It's a communist government with some capitalist ideals injected where the government sees fit. China makes a lot of their money by manufacturing goods sold around the world. Since consumers aren't buying anymore, their goods have no market. No one is really spared from this crisis.
I know, and thus it's not a really communistic country anymore, otherwise that wasnt accepted.

give a man a sandwich, he eats today. Teach the man a skill, he can feed himself for a lifetime. If that man chose to drop out of school, FAIL! no food for you. sorry, if you choose to screw up your own life, why should your stupidity deprive me and my family of the fruits of my hard labor?
But there are people who did not chose to screw up their life.

Also there are people who work even harder but still get less money without making wrong choises. So your point is not really legit.

Two years ago, I would have had to go 250 miles and pay $40,000+ for a stone removal operation. Now I can go 40 miles and pay $2500 for the exact same operation. That is capitalism at work. :p
And next year you've to go to China because all hospitals are broke:p
 
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There can't be good without something bad to compare it against. ;)

Inevitably, some will fall through the cracks and in those few cases is when government needs to step up. The idea is to get people back on their feet again so they can get back to paying taxes again. XD
Of course, it's a judgment call. Obama's plan I think is exactly that, to catch the few that fall through the cracks and make sure they are not cheated. The people who are already good are unaffected (supposedly, and whether the plan will actually go into effect is another story). I actually would like to go a little further myself though, the FDA in it's current state scares the crap out of me.
 
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Two years ago, I would have had to go 250 miles and pay $40,000+ for a stone removal operation. Now I can go 40 miles and pay $2500 for the exact same operation. That is capitalism at work. :p
That's all well and good if you've got the money in the first place. :shadedshu

I'm just not understanding the anti-NHS advocates here -- don't you think America is a great country? The "best in the world?" Don't you think America could make an NHS system work better than any other country, no matter how good they are (and their health systems are good, better than America's health system).

If America truly is so great, then do it, and do it better. Give every single person in your country free health care, and do it free of charge and make it the best health care in the world.
 

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Two years ago, I would have had to go 250 miles and pay $40,000+ for a stone removal operation. Now I can go 40 miles and pay $2500 for the exact same operation. That is capitalism at work. :p
In most counties that have money around the world it would of been free.
 

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There is not supposed to be two sides of an issue. Especially now with the economic issue people only look at the economical aspect of the candidate. That's just stupid.
There needs to be at least two sides to every issue. If you are in unanimous agreement, obviously you aren't looking in the right places for an opinion.


That's a weird story really, especially since Bin Laden already did attacks on USA before the Iraq/Kuwait war.

What about this, Bin Laden and USA had a deal to fight together, USA did promises but never made those come true, pissing of Bin Laden? Seriously, current situation and 9/11 are a bit deeper than your argument.
Oh, really? Then you know something I don't. Do tell.

No, not really. Bin Laden is holding a grudge against the USA just like Bush was holding a grudge against Hussein. Bin Laden was writing a story and needed an antagonist. At the time, USA was the best choice in his eyes.

Yeah, we pissed of bin Laden alright...by being better than him. Since there is no way he could get up to our level before he dies, he tries to tear us down to his level...


Why wouldnt I like the police? Only if they arrested me or whatever, but otherwise I dont give a fuck what they're doing. Apparently those people want USA out no matter what. Besides that there's still a huge group in Iraq who support Hussein and if possible would re-elect him.
They are a sign of authority--everything you shouldn't do. People are naturally intimidated by that. Iraqi's are intimidated seeing state of the art military equipment flying past their house and troops decked out in full body armor with a gun the size of a small child, as they should be. You really don't appreciate them until the enemy fires at you and they return fire, in which case, they provide a sense of security that would have become panic had they not been there.

Since the violence has gone down considerably, the intimidation is present without the sense of security so, people would rather see them disappear. That is understandable; however, it has to be done diligently in order to not lose controlled ground.

They never had "elections" in Iraq while Hussein was in power. I doubt that claim on basis anyway. :/


You seem to read things with different contexts. Of course those soldiers dont say "Hey lets commit suicide" and then Leroy into a hostile camp. Point is that the whole war against the Taliban is one big suicide operation because you wont gain anything and only lose it. That's what I mean.
The Taliban is no longer in power in Afghanistan and they haven't been for many years. So, they want their power back but they will die trying.


I know, and thus it's not a really communistic country anymore, otherwise that wasnt accepted.
It is very communist in leadership. The economic elements are really only present in the large cities of China where the communist leadership has "blessed" certain business owners to operate in a capitalist fashion (money, money, money). The farther away you get from the cities, the more apparent the communist control becomes (which is the majority, by the way).


And next year you've to go to China because all hospitals are broke:p
The place that costs $40,000 is ranked either #1 or #2 hospital in the world (Mayo Clinic). When treated there, you have about 3 different doctors and 9 in training with a massive support staff of nurses and the like. All of which are probably paid at least six figure digits.

The place that costs $2500 has one doctor and a handful of nurses.

One is lean and mean, the other is big and slow; however, sometimes you need big and slow...but hey, I have both options available to me. ;)

Of course, it's a judgment call. Obama's plan I think is exactly that, to catch the few that fall through the cracks and make sure they are not cheated. The people who are already good are unaffected (supposedly, and whether the plan will actually go into effect is another story). I actually would like to go a little further myself though, the FDA in it's current state scares the crap out of me.
The problem with Obama's plan is that, because it is leveraged against taxpayer money, the private industries can't compete. As his government healthcare grows, the private healthcare dies. As a result, the government ads even more debt to a 10 trillion dollar deficit. We are in a position right here and right now to prevent creating another Medicaid/Medicare crisis 30 years down the road. That's why I feel his plan is fundamentally incorrect. It is not sustainable.
 
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FAIL.
Your quoting a politician's (who's trying to be elected president) campaign website as pure fact? That's laughable. Most section's start w/ "John McCain believes".:rolleyes: The article, although you for some reason think b/c it is not from your end of the political spectrum it is completely invalid, offers an outside, scholastic analysis of the plan. Right or wrong, it holds more water than your link.
BJ:
Indeed, and in fact FordGT90guy said posted the same link already, and got the same response. It suggests that you're simply looking for material to object to without actually reading any of the posts in between. Fail.

I think you need to make a list of all the adjectives that you consider to fall under the umbrella of "socialist" or "pseudo-socialist" :roll:
 

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That's all well and good if you've got the money in the first place. :shadedshu
I sure as hell don't but I have good health insurance. :)


I'm just not understanding the anti-NHS advocates here -- don't you think America is a great country? The "best in the world?" Don't you think America could make an NHS system work better than any other country, no matter how good they are (and their health systems are good, better than America's health system).
Yes. Yes. Yes, as long as it doesn't use the federal government as a crutch. We can establish a healthcare system that is the best and completely sustainable in a capitalist market. There's nothing "great" about Uncle Sam taking over.


If America truly is so great, then do it, and do it better. Give every single person in your country free health care, and do it free of charge and make it the best health care in the world.
Nothing is free, ever. Not freedom, not fun, not health care. People make a living providing those services and they need to get money somehow. Not to mention, these are highly trained individuals and the profession of a doctor is one of the most respected in our society. They deserve a fat pay check. The trick is to find something that is affordable, catches those that fall, promotes competition, and is sustainable. If we come up with something that meets those four criteria, we'll have a winner.
 
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That's all well and good if you've got the money in the first place. :shadedshu

I'm just not understanding the anti-NHS advocates here -- don't you think America is a great country? The "best in the world?" Don't you think America could make an NHS system work better than any other country, no matter how good they are (and their health systems are good, better than America's health system).

If America truly is so great, then do it, and do it better. Give every single person in your country free health care, and do it free of charge and make it the best health care in the world.
America is a great country. Best in the WORLD, IMHO. But it's great because of it's people and their initiative, not because of the entitlement class who would hold a gun to the head of a CEO and say " all the money above that much is MINE"...
 
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Nothing is free, ever. Not freedom, not fun, not health care. People make a living providing those services and they need to get money somehow. Not to mention, these are highly trained individuals and the profession of a doctor is one of the most respected in our society. They deserve a fat pay check. The trick is to find something that is affordable, catches those that fall, promotes competition, and is sustainable. If we come up with something that meets those four criteria, we'll have a winner.
Sigh -- this is a fundamental difference of opinions. To me, where there is "competition," there is selfishness, and where there is selfishness, there are not people looking out for other peoples' needs above their own, which is what a good healthcare system should be all about.

Trust me, buddy -- I'm all about "competition" where it doesn't involve life and death. However, in the matter of healthcare -- and pretty much healthcare alone -- I'd like to think that people are more than just a line of numbers on some CEO's balance sheet. I'm saddened to see that you think differently.

America is a great country. Best in the WORLD, IMHO. But it's great because of it's people and their initiative, not because of the entitlement class who would hold a gun to the head of a CEO and say " all the money above that much is MINE"...
Yeah, yeah -- nobody said anything about entitlements, besides that of "life," which America's own historical documents (the US Declaration of Independence) say you're "entitled" to, anyway. Stop trying to change the subject by constantly bringing up this class warfare garbage. You sound like you're straight out of the pages of an Ayn Rand novel, and it's starting to get a little old.

You know what? Use some of that "initiative" and give all Americans health care without them having to fret over "choosing" a provider. Do that and get back to me.
 

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So, knowing that even though there actually is a pretty sizable private industry for the prison system, you still think it's better being socialized than allowing the free market to allow those better performing prisons to make the profits that they deserve? :rolleyes:


Aye -- you didn't need to make the point personal.

Seriously, though, that's what how you think of it? "Some kids make mistakes, it's part of growing up?"

I'm sorry, but having an unwanted child should <i>not</i> be part of growing up.
I made it personal because it IS personal to a lot of people, and who are we to judge which children are "unwanted", yes of course some are unwanted but many are not. Yes of course, it is either a mistake or deliberate, if it's deliberate it is unlikely that the children are unwanted as you mentioned anyways. Don't get me wrong, I am a great beleiver as it appears you are, and Big John (and I would guess most of us here) that people should earn what they get, they should show effort for reward but not everyone are blessed with "our" effort or motivation, yes a government can just throw them in the garbage heap and say "tough sh*t" but as DaMulta said, it just costs you more down the line, plus of course, a lot of those people still vote!

No government in the civilised world is going to go down that route I mentioned earlier, you know, if someone falls pregnant they either get rid or work but not spend a life on social security, probably for 2 main reasons (and this re-visits the contraception thing as well), first, like it or not, it would be socially irresponsible (but I agree thats down to ones personal perception) and secondly, in the USA for example,whichever government/party took even a small step in that direction, would never get in power again.....why? probably because you have quite a large population of catholics that largely are against both abortion and contraception.
 
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Tatty_One

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Neither a surplus or a deficit is a good thing. Surplus however is good to get out of recession, deficit usually puts you in one iirc
 
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Sigh -- this is a fundamental difference of opinions. To me, where there is "competition," there is selfishness, and where there is selfishness, there are not people looking out for other peoples' needs above their own, which is what a good healthcare system should be all about.
Why on earth should I put someone besides my FAMILY above my own needs? Why should the goverment force me to? I gave 10% of my income in charity last year, on top of taking care of my family... 3 kids, a beautiful wife, and a golden retriever.
Trust me, buddy -- I'm all about "competition" where it doesn't involve life and death. However, in the matter of healthcare -- and pretty much healthcare alone -- I'd like to think that people are more than just a line of numbers on some CEO's balance sheet. I'm saddened to see that you think differently.
People are what they make of themselves. Period. Excepting of course those born with some disability, or whom by some horrible accident find themselves disabled. Those are the only people who should ever qualify 'government assistance', and only when they can't get it from family and private charity. And, of course, this excludes people who's stupid life choices cause their disability - i.e. drive a motorcycle weaving in and out of traffic without a helmet... you splat yourself, well, you pay until such time as you run out of insurance, money, whatever, and then pull the damn plug - unless some private charity wants to keep you on life support.

Yeah, yeah -- nobody said anything about entitlements, besides that of "life," which America's own historical documents (the US Declaration of Independence) say you're "entitled" to, anyway.
yeah, but your right to life stops dead when it interferes with my right to liberty and property.
Stop trying to change the subject by constantly bringing up this class warfare garbage. You sound like you're straight out of the pages of an Ayn Rand novel, and it's starting to get a little old.
who's changing the subject? Obama is BAD for this country, and is so in more ways than I could ever list... including socialized health care. So, you prefer the fiction of "government money" to any fiction that elevates the individual and initiative and liberty? Ok.
You know what? Use some of that "initiative" and give all Americans health care without them having to fret over "choosing" a provider. Do that and get back to me.
No... because I could not do so without taking from someone what they earned.
Do you believe in slavery? If not, then how can you say that we automatically owe 30+ percent of our lives to feed the maw of the government entitlement system??
 

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Two years ago, I would have had to go 250 miles and pay $40,000+ for a stone removal operation. Now I can go 40 miles and pay $2500 for the exact same operation. That is capitalism at work. :p
And I can go 1 mile and get it for free.....fook capitalism, give me common sense every time! :rockout:
 

Tatty_One

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And I can go 1 mile and get it for free.....fook capatalism, give me common sense every time! :rockout:
What are you talking about? Americans can get the same healthcare without costs up front, usually within a mile or two, as well...

They just have to 1) wait until they're almost dead 2) go to an emergency room at a hospital, and then 3) accept tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt that they'll be paying off their entire lives. :shadedshu
 
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