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Why Bulldozer's spotty performance is good news.

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This community represents the 5% of the computer buying world that cares about who takes the performance crown. Whenever I build a new system for work, it's AMD based, more cores, more threads, more Virtual Machines. Having access to a microcenter and there insane AMD deals helps as well.
 
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When you say "you guys" whom is it directed at specifically?




Or software developers can stop being lazy and start writing code to utilise multi core processors in general.

Anyone who wants one as they are convinced, despite benchmarks and real world testing, that it is somehow better than a higher clocking, higher IPC, and overall faster 2600.


So much like calling out "bastard" in a crowded bar, I would assume only people who know deep down they are bastards will be offended or answer.

Credit due for a 3+ year bad design.


Would you also like to buy a Yugo, that looks good on paper, but runs like shit?
 
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The issue here is some people can't credit where credit is due. Bulldozer may have not been what people expected, but it's in no way a bad design. I've said this once, and I will say it again, AMD has Balls of Iron for creating something completely new and innovative. Now they need to learn from it and make Piledriver better.

It would also help if Developers would start writing code or Multi-Cores that would benefit both AMD and Intel.

A quick look at all of your other posts leads me to believe you would defend AMD if their next chip was a Dorito. "It's a bold new flavorful processing option."

Hyperbole aside, balls of steel and a head of iron are two separate things. I give props to AMD for moving away from the tried and true CPU designs. All of these props are negated by on simple fact. Performance does not come directly from changing everything.

If Bulldozer was a step in the right direction this thread would be drooling fanboys, and Intel hold-outs trying to say that their processors were still awesome. What we get is Intel being completely non-plussed because BD is a shambling step in the wrong direction.

Before you say it, I concede that the new architecture has the possibility for success. This all hinges on an enormous amount of work, that should have been done in the five years its taken to develop BD.


Blame MS, they haven't done enough to push a 64 bit OS. Blame software writers, they haven't written 64 bit programs or included mulyi-thread support. Blame everyone else but AMD for a half baked CPU architecture that isn't what the consumer market is demanding. Just no.

Consumers drive software. Software drives OS development. OSs drive hardware. If you want to make BD a good option then refuse to buy software that isn't multi-threaded and OSs that aren't 64 bit. I ask you this, what are you left with? No Apple programs, no older games, and media player choices become miniscule. Bemoaning the system that consumers define is like blaming a parrot for repeating what it hears. 0 change comes from moaning.


As I have stated before, wake me when BD becomes relevant. Until AMD can extract sensible performance from their little experiment I'm going to state the obvious. BD has been an experiment that did not go as expected, and has drawbacks that are unacceptable.
 

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a quick look at all of your other posts leads me to believe you would defend amd if their next chip was a dorito. "it's a bold new flavorful processing option."

hyperbole aside, balls of steel and a head of iron are two separate things. I give props to amd for moving away from the tried and true cpu designs. All of these props are negated by on simple fact. Performance does not come directly from changing everything.

If bulldozer was a step in the right direction this thread would be drooling fanboys, and intel hold-outs trying to say that their processors were still awesome. What we get is intel being completely non-plussed because bd is a shambling step in the wrong direction.

Before you say it, i concede that the new architecture has the possibility for success. This all hinges on an enormous amount of work, that should have been done in the five years its taken to develop bd.


Blame ms, they haven't done enough to push a 64 bit os. Blame software writers, they haven't written 64 bit programs or included mulyi-thread support. Blame everyone else but amd for a half baked cpu architecture that isn't what the consumer market is demanding. Just no.

Consumers drive software. Software drives os development. Oss drive hardware. If you want to make bd a good option then refuse to buy software that isn't multi-threaded and oss that aren't 64 bit. I ask you this, what are you left with? No apple programs, no older games, and media player choices become miniscule. Bemoaning the system that consumers define is like blaming a parrot for repeating what it hears. 0 change comes from moaning.


As i have stated before, wake me when bd becomes relevant. Until amd can extract sensible performance from their little experiment i'm going to state the obvious. Bd has been an experiment that did not go as expected, and has drawbacks that are unacceptable.

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Anyone who wants one as they are convinced, despite benchmarks and real world testing, that it is somehow better than a higher clocking, higher IPC, and overall faster 2600.

Very few people are saying the Bulldozer is faster overall than the i7 2600K.

From what I've read, most people are saying the Bulldozer is faster or as fast as the i7 2600K in multithreaded environment, and this is correct.


Credit due for a 3+ year bad design.

The design isn’t bad. In theory the design should of yielded better performance than i7 overall. Obviously that didn’t happen, so performance was probably attributed to other factors whether hardware or software (slow cache?, latency?, schedule issues?, OS issues? sloppy multithreaded apps? who knows!)

Would you also like to buy a Yugo, that looks good on paper, but runs like shit?

What has that question got to do with the article that claims the arrival of the B3
 
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There is no mention of any changes for B3, again it might be a doritos chip gets put inside each one to bake since they run so hot. You might get a free handjob with it to make you feel better.


There is no mention of any "fix" from AMD, it is pure assumption from TweakTown. Assumptive rumors are like diarrhea of the mouth. So TweakTown spewed shit out of their mouth, are you sure you want to eat and repeat that?


http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cpus/2011/10/12/amd-fx-8150-review/8

A 3.4Ghz ( 200Mhz per core SLOWER) 2600 ruins its shit.

http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/amd_fx8150/5.htm

No difference.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8150-zambezi-bulldozer-990fx,3043-17.html

Ohes no, a trend is emerging.........

There are a select few places it gets a higher "score", unfortunately two of those are power consumption, and heat output.
 
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There is no mention of any "fix" from AMD, it is pure assumption from TweakTown. Assumptive rumors are like diarrhea of the mouth. So TweakTown spewed shit out of their mouth, are you sure you want to eat and repeat that?


Nobody is talking about a fix. I was just merely comfirming that B3 stepping might be on the way according to sources.

I did not state any performance enhancements or whether it was true. I was just posting a link I found.



What has any of this got to do with the rumoured B3 stepping.
 
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Nobody is talking about a fix. I was just merely comfirming that B3 stepping might be on the way according to sources.

I did not state any performance enhancements or whether it was true. I was just posting a link I found.

Notice how I didn't quote you, but just asked a open question?

And yes, people were talking abut it being a "fix".

Nothing wrong with your link, nothing wrong with the discussion of what it COULD mean.


Your idea about the design being fine is wrong though. That is the point of a design, to get expected controlled results. If you relied on AMD to design and build a bridge with this same outcome no one would drive on it.

Very few people are saying the Bulldozer is faster overall than the i7 2600K.

From what I've read, most people are saying the Bulldozer is faster or as fast as the i7 2600K in multithreaded environment, and this is correct.

What has any of this got to do with the rumored B3 stepping.

Its still slower. And that is the point of this thread.
 
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Your idea about the design being fine is wrong though. That is the point of a design, to get expected controlled results. If you relied on AMD to design and build a bridge with this same outcome no one would drive on it.

I never said the design was fine. I said the design isnt bad. And performance should of been good in theory.

Reading between the lines I'm praising the architecture but clearly not praising the performance.

Its still slower. And that is the point of this thread.

No the original point of the thread, was Bruce Gain from PCWorld concluding that singthreaded performance is poor and desktop consumers are disappointed! The author later blames benchmarks saying most support only 2 or less cores - Its sad you didnt even READ the orignal post.


Most of these tests are largely geared for CPUs with two or fewer cores. Software makers also have yet to bring to market applications that will take advantage of FX multi-core design for multi-threading tasks.

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscent...ulldozer_disappoints_why_thats_good_news.html
 
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It was stupid of AMD to attempt a die shrink and an architecture change at the same time. I think it can be fixed though, and with Intel focusing more on graphics with Ivy, they can narrow the gap. Now it will be nice to watch if AMD catches up with CPU before Intel catches up with GPU or vice versa. The next few years will be interesting.
 
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I believe what the actual point is/was we have millions of pieces of software. AMD made a chip that only effectively runs 2% of it better than the competition.

So, reading between the lines, the CPU sucks for everyone and everything but terminal servers, and even there its the same or lower price to purchase a older board that supports two quad core chips.

I'm not attacking you BTW. I am just having a conversation in my style.
 
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So, reading between the lines, the CPU sucks for everyone and everything but terminal servers, and even there its the same or lower price to purchase a older board that supports two quad core chips.

That may be true, but it has nothing to do with the PCWorld article or the B3 stepping. We've already covered the AMD FX suck for traditional desktop use in comparison to Intel's i5 & i7 offering. You are not telling us anything useful, just rehasing what has been said/discussed already.


I believe what the actual point is/was we have millions of pieces of software. AMD made a chip that only effectively runs 2% of it better than the competition.

Where does it say that in the article. Quote it please :)

Article clearly says most software benchmarked doesnt support its multi core/thread approach - I quoted mine, now quote yours.

Most of these tests are largely geared for CPUs with two or fewer cores. Software makers also have yet to bring to market applications that will take advantage of FX multi-core design for multi-threading tasks.
 

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I wouldnt doubt that AMD reimplements the turbocore or w/e it is in 2 steppings or In Piledriver

I would, because it would be cheaper and still hellishly fast, even at stock, but we can overclock any BD chip. The current 6 core BD model is $190, a bit cheaper than the $220 Intel wants for the 2500k, with two more cores to spare... making it a bit less helpless in heavily multithreaded apps, although it would still lag behind in most things. Then you can overclock the 6 core BD beyond stock 2500k performance... of course then you could clock the 2500k to outclass the overclocked BD, but even though the 2500k is faster, the BD is still pretty damn fast, and cheaper, factoring overall system cost in.

The point I'm making is AMD is slower and cheaper, although slower doesn't really matter because even the slower performance is still pretty fast. In short, nothing really changed... I pretty much expected BD to turn out like this.

I wonder why AMD hasn't put a similar feature to Intel's turbo boost in BD, though. This makes me wonder about the overclockability of BD...
 
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A quick look at all of your other posts leads me to believe you would defend AMD if their next chip was a Dorito. "It's a bold new flavorful processing option."

Hyperbole aside, balls of steel and a head of iron are two separate things. I give props to AMD for moving away from the tried and true CPU designs. All of these props are negated by on simple fact. Performance does not come directly from changing everything.

If Bulldozer was a step in the right direction this thread would be drooling fanboys, and Intel hold-outs trying to say that their processors were still awesome. What we get is Intel being completely non-plussed because BD is a shambling step in the wrong direction.

Before you say it, I concede that the new architecture has the possibility for success. This all hinges on an enormous amount of work, that should have been done in the five years its taken to develop BD.


Blame MS, they haven't done enough to push a 64 bit OS. Blame software writers, they haven't written 64 bit programs or included mulyi-thread support. Blame everyone else but AMD for a half baked CPU architecture that isn't what the consumer market is demanding. Just no.

Consumers drive software. Software drives OS development. OSs drive hardware. If you want to make BD a good option then refuse to buy software that isn't multi-threaded and OSs that aren't 64 bit. I ask you this, what are you left with? No Apple programs, no older games, and media player choices become miniscule. Bemoaning the system that consumers define is like blaming a parrot for repeating what it hears. 0 change comes from moaning.


As I have stated before, wake me when BD becomes relevant. Until AMD can extract sensible performance from their little experiment I'm going to state the obvious. BD has been an experiment that did not go as expected, and has drawbacks that are unacceptable.
We will agree to disagree.
AMD took a chance with Bulldozer and it does not perform as well as the hype.
I will say it again and again, AMD's got Balls of Iron for doing something completely different and forcing themselves to Innovate. Despite it's performance they deserve a break IMO, and hopefully they will learn from Bulldozer and make Piledriver better. Fair? :)
It was stupid of AMD to attempt a die shrink and an architecture change at the same time. I think it can be fixed though, and with Intel focusing more on graphics with Ivy, they can narrow the gap. Now it will be nice to watch if AMD catches up with CPU before Intel catches up with GPU or vice versa. The next few years will be interesting.
The original 45nm Bulldozer was a fail, which is why they went to 32nm. :)
 
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We will agree to disagree.
AMD took a chance with Bulldozer and it does not perform as well as the hype.
I will say it again and again, AMD's got Balls of Iron for doing something completely different and forcing themselves to Innovate. Despite it's performance they deserve a break IMO, and hopefully they will learn from Bulldozer and make Piledriver better. Fair? :)

God, I hope so. I would love to see AMD take a huge spiked plug and ram it into Intel's behind. I was, like you apparently still do, hoping AMD would give Intel a huge black eye.

Here's to hoping that Piledriver can pull out a win. MS prooved it was possible with windows 7, and I really want AMD to do the same exact thing.
 
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I think the bottom line on BD is that AMD is lucky to have survived after nearly choking on ATI. When your very existence is in doubt, it tends to reorder your priorities. I mean ultimately, somebody probably would have rescued them, but then again . . . . And even then, what would they have looked like? I doubt they would still be a company that could at least bat in the same league as Intel.

Another thing that I'm just going to toss out there since I know jack squat about chip design - had AMD not gone with an approach like this, what other options would they have had? I mean, the basic architecture is pretty mature at this point isn't it? Twenty years ago you could have dynamically addressable registers and some rudimentary branch prediction and you could walk around with the theme from Rocky playing as your own personal sound track. All the low hanging fruit has been plucked. So either you go with a hyperthreading approach which costs you in die real estate, or cut each core down to the bare minimum that can still handle 70-80% of the work most rigs see. I mean what was the last really mind blowing chip design? Everything that is being implemented today is shit that people have been talking about since computers had handcranks on the side and we called them adding machines.
 

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God, I hope so. I would love to see AMD take a huge spiked plug and ram it into Intel's behind. I was, like you apparently still do, hoping AMD would give Intel a huge black eye.

Here's to hoping that Piledriver can pull out a win. MS prooved it was possible with windows 7, and I really want AMD to do the same exact thing.

MS was literally suffering cuz of Vista, Most people wouldnt move to Vista or would revert back to XP. MS tried forcing it down peoples throats, their stocks started going down. 7 fixed everything that was problematic with Vista. I still will never upgrade ontop of a previous OS tho.

We can only wonder what Piledriver brings to the table since that CPU should be Fully TSMC Fabbed. GF Fab is having teething problems. AMD needs to go back to what Made K7 n K8 very powerful. N Bring back the Athlon as the Staple Name and the Athlon FX their top Chip, Have the Desktop and Server Socket the Same- Supports APU to Server CPUs (APU function disabled in motherboards that do not have video output from CPU or traditional IGP solution, depending on 1 way to 8 way designs (Like it was during Athlon XP/MP era). Re-implement the Dual CPU Platform that supports 2 Athlon FX (2-way capability -disabled in single CPU boards/High Die n Core Temp tolerance for Overclocking) or Opteron CPUs. (2-8way capable)
 
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Maybe AMD will do the same thing that MS did.

But a new box on bulldozer, drop the FX nomenclature and drop the price :)

I never understood the Vista hate, I think most of it was passed on the early release pirate samples that were BETA builds that still had the diagnostic driver function enabled that really hampered performance. Granted I started Beta testing Vista back from around build 4074 of Longhorn, but Vista is hte first MS OS I had that lasted more than a year (7 has not even come close to that yet surprisingly).
 
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MS was literally suffering cuz of Vista, Most people wouldnt move to Vista or would revert back to XP. MS tried forcing it down peoples throats, their stocks started going down. 7 fixed everything that was problematic with Vista. I still will never upgrade ontop of a previous OS tho.

We can only wonder what Piledriver brings to the table since that CPU should be Fully TSMC Fabbed. GF Fab is having teething problems.

My point, in a slightly less eluquent structure.

MS took the underlying structure of Vista (analgous to the BD architecture), and pulled out a functional OS called windows 7. BD has, in my opinion, the same problems. It is a good idea, but lacks performance where it counts. Piledriver has the potential to use lessons from BD, and build something truly worthwhile.

Hopefully, Piledriver will fix BDs errors. This, ideally, will be exactly like MS and windows 7.
 
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I think the bottom line on BD is that AMD is lucky to have survived after nearly choking on ATI. When your very existence is in doubt, it tends to reorder your priorities. I mean ultimately, somebody probably would have rescued them, but then again . . . . And even then, what would they have looked like? I doubt they would still be a company that could at least bat in the same league as Intel.

Another thing that I'm just going to toss out there since I know jack squat about chip design - had AMD not gone with an approach like this, what other options would they have had? I mean, the basic architecture is pretty mature at this point isn't it? Twenty years ago you could have dynamically addressable registers and some rudimentary branch prediction and you could walk around with the theme from Rocky playing as your own personal sound track. All the low hanging fruit has been plucked. So either you go with a hyperthreading approach which costs you in die real estate, or cut each core down to the bare minimum that can still handle 70-80% of the work most rigs see. I mean what was the last really mind blowing chip design? Everything that is being implemented today is shit that people have been talking about since computers had handcranks on the side and we called them adding machines.

Each significant IPC increase, the 1Ghz barrier, now we are working towards 5Ghz stock chips and OpenCL. X64 and APU's....

There really have been huge strides made in CPU performance, and more importantly, price. I remember it costing somewhere in the $1700 ball park for a decent (for the time) Gateway my parents bought years and years ago (I was a teen).

Dent1

Where does it say that in the article. Quote it please


So you will read between the lines, but when I summarize the article, and the performance as a whole I need to provide quotes for it? Riiiiight.

I'll get right on that boss. ;)
 
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AMD's Bulldozer Disappoints: Why That's Good News

By Bruce Gain, PCWorld

AMD's latest-and-greatest chip may lag slightly behind Intel’s competing Core i5, as initial PCWorld performance-testing indicates. But these disappointing results hide benefits that AMD's "Bulldozer" FX CPU will likely offer, especially for cost-conscious The cost is the same, and with power consumption for running the processor, and effectively cooling it for half they year as that 200Watts of heat have to go somewhere in the summer, so 200W of direct load on a A/C unit times the number of processors and system efficiency for the whole machine actually makes this cost more ICO (Initial Cost of Ownership) and TCP (Total Cost of Ownership) So sorry, there is no savings. Besides, the fact is companies who are running enough of these to warrant worrying about thread/core count wouldn't be running this anyway, they run servers with two or four CPU's with multiple cores. So everything in this paragraph is untrue. small businesses.


AMD Bulldozer The issue is that most CPU-performance tests don't reflect the potential computational power offered by FX, which has up to eight cores, depending on the version. Sure, computationally-wise, preliminary synthetic tests, such as PCMark 7 and Cinebench, reflect real-world computing performance and indicate that the FX lags in comparison with Intel’s Core i5. That's what PCWorld's tests showed after running the four-core FX-4100 through the paces. Actually most of the high end software they DIDN'T test with is capable of using more than one or two threads. A friend is attending the Art Institute in Portland for editing, and his father runs a editing studio, and runs two and four way boxes for his editing with Premiere Pro http://help.adobe.com/en_US/aftereffects/cs/using/WS9F936D13-E76A-41e4-BF8F-577132AB4723a.html Just in case you can't google it yourself.

Why can’t the FX’ multi-core design crank past Intel’s Core i5 in these tests? Most of these tests are largely geared for CPUs with two or fewer cores. Software makers also have yet to bring to market applications that will take advantage of FX multi-core design for multi-threading tasks.So we see above that software that actually USES multi-core/multi-threading could use all the cores, but the performance still sucks. http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/fx-8150-zambezi-bulldozer-990fx,review-32295-23.html Here they actually use the multi-core capable software in both Windows 7, and 8 and......it slows DOWN. The games below do reflect some significant games, but with Windows 8 still in Alpha, who knows what the actual performance will be in RTM.

The server equivalent of the FX, code-named "Interlagos"--meant to launch in a few weeks--already takes advantage of the eight cores to a greater extent than the desktop equivalent of the FX does, AMD says.

“AMD FX and Bulldozer CPU technology was optimized for multi-processing and multi-threaded applications,” Dina McKinney, corporate vice president, design engineering, for AMD said via email.

The eight cores also benefit from AMD’s Turbo Core feature, which automatically boosts the clock speed of different cores when others are not in use above and beyond their normal speeds. When Turbo Core kicks in, the standard clock speed of the FX-8150, the highest-end version of the FX, can speed from 3.6GHz to 3.6GHz. Turbo core would work, except it was active for those games where it still lost.

Turbo Core also does this while monitoring power consumption and will lower the processing speed if overheating occurs (Intel’s Turbo Boost has a similar functionality). Junk filler in a article that says nothing new, and means nothing.

So in the future, look out for potential video editing, engineering, and other software that might harness what eight cores and Turbo Boost can offer both in the desktop space. While it is has yet to be proven, the FX with its eight cores could very well be ahead of its time. Except it has already been tested in the video editing, engineering and other software that people use, and its still slower, despite the software using all the threads and cores available. In case you didn't know, second place in a race means you have lost. AMD lost with a chip that is 400Mhz per core faster than its competitively priced chip. Lost.

For now, the FX-8150--the highest-end variation of AMD's FX--retails for $245, compared with $220 for its direct competitor, the Intel Core i5-2500K. So, if you're buying a new motherboard for a workstation and want to scrutinize the best value for your money, the Intel part will offer slightly better performance for most office applications for $25 less.

But, in the larger scheme of things, expect to see versions of the FX show up in future PCs that will at least compete against machines with Intel inside performance- wise, and may still beat the in price as well.

AMD vs. IntelIn the worst case scenario, AMD’s FX launch is disappointing in that the chip doesn't trounce competing Intel devices in performance. Regardless, as the two chip giants battle, they continue to attempt to outdo each other, which benefits consumers.

In the end, the fact that AMD has maintained market share in CPUs means that Intel has had to keep its prices in check to remain competitive. If Intel had a monopoly, as Microsoft has had with its PC operating system, then CPU prices would surely have been higher and Intel would have had less incentive to innovate. Without the competition, a pure Intel monopoly would have left the workstation and server computing would years behind what it is today.

Bruce covers tech trends in the United States and Europe. He can be reached through his Website at www.brucegain.com.

Bruce gain needed a article to write that would get page hits to prove his worth at getting ad revenue, congrats on funding him. He has written a article without any actual tests being done, no hard data, no information. Just speculation that has been proven wrong.


All that being said, I'm sure it will be fun to play with, and yes, it is a upgrade from a X6 if you use software that will take advantage of it, but NO you CANNOT compare it to a 2600 for threaded performance.

$314 for a 2600

VS

$279.99 for a 8150

$30 less.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cpus/2011/10/12/amd-fx-8150-review/10

Load stock speed 82W more power. Means on average $17 more per year in power for the AMD system, not including cooling costs.
 
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eidairaman1

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I added more to my comment

My point, in a slightly less eluquent structure.

MS took the underlying structure of Vista (analgous to the BD architecture), and pulled out a functional OS called windows 7. BD has, in my opinion, the same problems. It is a good idea, but lacks performance where it counts. Piledriver has the potential to use lessons from BD, and build something truly worthwhile.

Hopefully, Piledriver will fix BDs errors. This, ideally, will be exactly like MS and windows 7.
 
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@Steevo

I was enjoying the fact that it lacked any realy evidence and made no god damn sense...
 
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twilyth

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We made it 6 pages without that bothering anyone though.

Well . . . . anyone else that is. :shadedshu ;)
 
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