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Why is battery technology so behind the times?

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We really need a truly genuine honest person to lead us to a better future, and that person is not one of the elites or one of the rich. It's exactly as Plato/Socrates predicted, it needs to be a philosopher who takes no income and sleeps on the white house lawn and gives up all material possessions, outside of what is required to be the leader of the free world.

Asimov wrote some nice stories and one proposed that the leader would be selected on worth and was obligated for the term, but in return would have a lifetime income. He did like to play with ideas did Asimov.
 

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FordGT90Concept

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Lithium supply in relation to EVs has been researched and there definitely isn't enough to power everything with lithium based batteries past a few decades. Thats why we need to eventually move off of it at some point to different battery chemistry or hydrogen. Li-ion is the best we got now though for the foreseeable future so its full steam ahead.
Lithium is a very abundant resource on Earth but it is never pure: it is bound up with other minerals which makes extraction costly/difficult. This is where economics is already at play with oil: when the easy to pump wells start running dry, the price goes up, which makes fracking and tar sands viable as a substitute. Costs more to produce and is less pure, but they also stop the price from rising higher because there's a supply available to meet demand. Lithium is likely to go through the same evolution where the (relatively) easy stuff is tapped first and more costly sources come as the price rises.

Keep in mind also, that there literally is no room in terms of pricing battery electric vehicles (BEV) with governments everywhere subsidizing part of the roll away cost. Subsidies are a clear signal that the economics of the market do not work (the actual retail price is higher than the vast majority of consumers want to pay). A lithium shortage therefore either stalls BEV growth or increases government subsidies to compensate or the market will not continue to grow under its own market forces. Knowing this, it's worrying to me how the governments of the world are pushing to go entirely BEV exclusive on very short timetables (one country I think has a deadline of 2030 to stop selling ICEs). As with fuel efficiency standards, they were supportive when they agreed and they pushed back when they didn't. So far, only Toyota is pushing back and I think that is because Toyota is the only one making BEVs for the everyman and they see the growing lithium costs as pricing them out of the market. Everyone else is selling BEVs at a premium/luxury model so they're not worried about lithium...yet.

Of course a revolution in battery tech could blunt the impending lithium crunch but, I'm not going to hold my breath. For the sake of the planet, I hope BEVs exceed the cost of hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles (HFCEV) so the market will hasten the transition off batteries and on to hydrogen-as-a-battery.
 

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Of course a revolution in battery tech could blunt the impending lithium crunch but, I'm not going to hold my breath. For the sake of the planet, I hope BEVs exceed the cost of hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles (HFCEV) so the market will hasten the transition off batteries and on to hydrogen-as-a-battery.

Is this more of a 'dream' type hope? Or do you actually foresee it taking place with some innovations that are incoming?

I don't see EV going anywhere, EV seems to be roaring ahead full speed, sadly. I agree with you. Personally I think all of the south west of the USA needs solar powered cars, and due to ocean rises, we are going to need to move 70% of the worlds population more inland at some point anyway, so we can build all new urban cities based on hyperloop system, and then hydrogen fuel cell combined with bill gates/warren buffet new nuclear power plant models to give the hydrogen plants and that supply chain the industry it needs. Hydrogen semi trucks seem to make a lot more sense over battery ones too...

Humanity does have a chance to turn itself around here... EV doesn't seem to be the right way though, a shame.
 

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The innovations are generally already here (see Toyota Mirai) but there isn't the infrastructure necessary to support HFCEVs outside of locations where there are hydrogen fuel stations. HFCEVs suffer the same problem as BEVs (range anxiety) but it's even worse because you can't charge an HFCEV off any old 110v outlet like you could a BEV.

HFCEVs could actually solve some of the southwest's water crisis if there was a standard for storing waste HFC water and dumping it into water recovery systems. Trucks filling up in Kansas, for example, could contribute a few gallons of water to Arizona, for example. As long as Arizona brings in their own supply of hydrogen to dispense (rather than producing it locally), HFCs could become a net positive for water flows into the state.
 
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Knowing this, it's worrying to me how the governments of the world are pushing to go entirely BEV exclusive on very short timetables (one country I think has a deadline of 2030 to stop selling ICEs). As with fuel efficiency standards, they were supportive when they agreed and they pushed back when they didn't. So far, only Toyota is pushing back and I think that is because Toyota is the only one making BEVs for the everyman and they see the growing lithium costs as pricing them out of the market. Everyone else is selling BEVs at a premium/luxury model so they're not worried about lithium...yet.
They are pushing incentives because no nation wants to fall behind the technology and infrastructure curve. Li-ion battery technology now is what is but what is but what learned today on current Li-ion tech paves the way for better future technologies.

As to current EVs and Toyota, they are pretty much MIA, Kia / Hyundai, Ford, VW, and the incoming Chinese manufactures are the ones leading the way to affordable EVs.
Of course a revolution in battery tech could blunt the impending lithium crunch but, I'm not going to hold my breath. For the sake of the planet, I hope BEVs exceed the cost of hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles (HFCEV) so the market will hasten the transition off batteries and on to hydrogen-as-a-battery.
Ultimately I think this will probably end being the case but it will take a lot of abundant green energy as making the hydrogen is very energy intensive so doing it with the current sources of power is pretty much pointless so there is no reason to make meaningful plans to switch now.
 
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It's all about control and making the working class poor, so there is only scumbag politicians and "elites" and poor people.

Ever watch Demolition Man, that along side Terminator and Wall E are warnings.
Totally! More often than not, I feel like John Spartan, offending everyone by just opening my mouth and not hiding that I want to live my life the way I imagined it, and not some dickhead politician or random rich bloke on TV.
 
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Plastic "recycling" is a cautionary tale that ideas are often not economically viable or technically feasible. It is an example of why a business saying they can recycle something doesn't mean the problem is actually solved.

It's really quite simple: if you're not recycling close to 100% of your inputs, then there is still a whole lot of waste being generated by the industry, no matter what it is.
Ok, I can appreciate it as a cautionary tale for sure.
 
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Plastic "recycling" is a cautionary tale that ideas are often not economically viable or technically feasible. It is an example of why a business saying they can recycle something doesn't mean the problem is actually solved.

It's really quite simple: if you're not recycling close to 100% of your inputs, then there is still a whole lot of waste being generated by the industry, no matter what it is.

It should be noted that different plastic resins have different degrees of success.

PETE (#1 plastic) is very successful, as is #5 plastic.

#6 plastic is so awful you might as well throw it into the trash most of the time. #4 plastic (aka: plastic bags) is theoretically recyclable to a high-degree, but the economics of plastic-bag recycling is awful. #4 plastic is surprisingly difficult (recycling is paid per-pound. You need _LOTS_ of plastic bags before you get enough "weight", and all of those bags need to be high-purity #4 plastic. Just a little bit of other kinds of plastic ruins the whole batch).
 

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The problem is the costs associated with sorting and cleaning. As the Reuters article said, the solution that makes the most economic sense is to simply burn it all to produce cement.
 
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I've said it in other threads but it seems to have returned here. Don't use a lithium battery on a lead acid type Ups just because people have doesn't make it a good idea.
Lead acid battery voltages can be very different to lithium to start but it's more how they charge is the issue. UPS's especially economy ones generally charge via a pwm circuit while this is fine for most battery chemistry it is not for lithium types, it stresses the battery, killing it slowly. If your Ups runs off led acid and you want longer run time add more don't swap to lithium because some IT technician (who won't read a manual because he knows better) told you it's fine.
 
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I've said it in other threads but it seems to have returned here. Don't use a lithium battery on a lead acid type Ups just because people have doesn't make it a good idea.
Lead acid battery voltages can be very different to lithium to start but it's more how they charge is the issue. UPS's especially economy ones generally charge via a pwm circuit while this is fine for most battery chemistry it is not for lithium types, it stresses the battery, killing it slowly. If your Ups runs off led acid and you want longer run time add more don't swap to lithium because some IT technician (who won't read a manual because he knows better) told you it's fine.

so how do you think lithium should be charged.. ??

trog
 
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so how do you think lithium should be charged.. ??

trog
Smoothed current instead of pulsating current. It's still generated by a PWM circuit, just better filtered.
 
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Smoothed current instead of pulsating current. It's still generated by a PWM circuit, just better filtered.

that begs the next question.. how smooth is smooth.. i cant say as i have seen much of a mention of such things.. ??

trog
 
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so how do you think lithium should be charged.. ??

trog
Power point tracking is how most decent lithium chargers work you could technically charge a lithium battery via pwm if you had some sort of smoothing led acid battery after the charge circuit a few diodes and a dc-dc mppt charging circuit only allowing input to the battery from said bodge and the output was protected via diodes.
 
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that begs the next question.. how smooth is smooth.. i cant say as i have seen much of a mention of such things.. ??

trog
I don't know any specifics, so guessing only. Some filtering, not perfect filtering like is necessary in pwm power stages for CPUs.
With pulsating current, the effective (RMS) current (the one that heats up all the parts of battery that act as resistors) is higher than the average current (the one that charges the battery). For example, 5A all of the time will heat up a resistor half as much as 10A half of the time. Now a battery isn't a simple resistor, heating is an electrochemical effect, but *maybe* it is similar.

Power point tracking is how most decent lithium chargers work you could technically charge a lithium battery via pwm if you had some sort of smoothing led acid battery after the charge circuit a few diodes and a dc-dc mppt charging circuit only allowing input to the battery from said bodge and the output was protected via diodes.
MPPT is usually associated with solar panels, what does it do in the context of battery charging?

However, lead-acid chargers are constant voltage, and the voltage is tuned to the battery type, so it can't be optimal for another type.
 
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lithium charging (and discharging) is handled by a built in battery management system.. charging isnt as critical as with lead acid..

trog
 
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I don't know any specifics, so guessing only. Some filtering, not perfect filtering like is necessary in pwm power stages for CPUs.
With pulsating current, the effective (RMS) current (the one that heats up all the parts of battery that act as resistors) is higher than the average current (the one that charges the battery). For example, 5A all of the time will heat up a resistor half as much as 10A half of the time. Now a battery isn't a simple resistor, heating is an electrochemical effect, but *maybe* it is similar.


MPPT is usually associated with solar panels, what does it do in the context of battery charging?

However, lead-acid chargers are constant voltage, and the voltage is tuned to the battery type, so it can't be optimal for another type.
Ppt or mppt is used in solar charge controllers but wasn't developed for it. It's simply a type of power transmission and works well if charging a lithium battery from another type say lead acid. As the name suggests it tracks the stages of a charge and supplies the power as and when needed. as you pointed out lithium batteries charge in stages and the voltage used depends on that stage .

Charging a life or lipo battery with a constant voltage especially in pulses stresses the battery chemistry and lithium batteries have a fragile balance hence why they work so well at 50% (most lithium batteries are shipped at 50% charge for this reason).
Lead acid on the other hand doesn't care what you do to it really, short it out, draw massive amounts of amps it doesn't care and will keep on chugging along.

A decent lithium balance charger measures the voltage of the battery from start to finish and alters voltage and amperes depending on each stage ( power point tracking) bringing the voltage up steadily till full be it 3.65v for a Life or 4.2v for a lipo.

lithium charging (and discharging) is handled by a built in battery management system.. charging isnt as critical as with lead acid..

trog
No it doesn't a BMS purely adds safety features so the battery doesn't damage itself or explode and doesn't regulate anything

Sorry I'm partly wrong a BMS can balance a battery but doesn't regulate voltage.
 
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i would say that with lithium the voltage dosnt need to be regulated.. voltage (within reason) just gets chucked at it until the BMS decides its cooked at that point it switches off..

it also dosnt care whether its fully charged or not.. the BMS does govern the maximum charge and discharge.. with the lifep04 batteries i have this is around 1C..

with the 800 ah bank i have this would be 800 amps max discharge or 800 amp max charge.. not as i have found anything coming even vaguely close to being able to do this.. my batteries are charged by 20 x 150 watt solar panels and run into a 3000 watt inverter which partly powers my house..

i have an auto switch over device which is controlled by the battery voltage.. when the battery charge level (voltage) gets down to about 40% it switches from battery power to mains power.. when the battery voltage gets high enough it switches back to battery power..

the battery bank with no solar would provide basic power to my house for several days.. the system could also be generator powered if needed..

trog
 
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i would say that with lithium the voltage dosnt need to be regulated.. voltage (within reason) just gets chucked at it until the BMS decides its cooked at that point it switches off..

it also dosnt care whether its fully charged or not.. the BMS does govern the maximum charge and discharge.. with the lifep04 batteries i have this is around 1C..

with the 800 ah bank i have this would be 800 amps max discharge or 800 amp max charge.. not as i have found anything coming even vaguely close to being able to do this.. my batteries are charged by 20 x 150 watt solar panels and run into a 3000 watt inverter which partly powers my house..

i have an auto switch over device which is controlled by the battery voltage.. when the battery charge level (voltage) gets down to about 40% it switches from battery power to mains power.. when the battery voltage gets high enough it switches back to battery power..

the battery bank with no solar would provide basic power to my house for several days.. the system could also be generator powered if needed..

trog
I'm guessing you have a charge controller regulating volatge to your 12/24v batteries otherwise your throwing 60-140 amps at those life batteries and your BMS's would just cut out

Your standard charge current would more likely be around 0.33c so you could charge it without lowering the amperage from the cells but I still can't believe your inputting 21v into a 14.6v cell

It's more likely you have a integrated charging circuit built into your BMS regulating voltage correctly which is something very few BMS on the market have.
 
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I'm guessing you have a charge controller regulating volatge to your 12/24v batteries otherwise your throwing 60-140 amps at those life batteries and your BMS's would just cut out

Your standard charge current would more likely be around 0.33c so you could charge it without lowering the amperage from the cells but I still can't believe your inputting 21v into a 14.6v cell

It's more likely you have a integrated charging circuit built into your BMS regulating voltage correctly which is something very few BMS on the market have.

i have 8 x 100 ah batteries in parallel.. 1C would be 800 amps.. i live in the UK.. i installed the system at the end of last summer/autumn .. as of yet i have not seen real sun just low winter sun..

the most i have seen my panels producing is 90 amps or about 1250 watts.. the panels are set up in three arrays ruining into three separate controllers.. purely a guess this because i really dont know but even in the summer i dont see more than maybe 1800 watts (in total) coming in from the panels.. but this really is a guess..

if i do get more i will have to think about some bigger controllers.. currently i have 2 x 40 amp and 1 x 60 amp controllers..

trog
 
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i have 8 x 100 ah batteries in parallel.. 1C would be 800 amps.. i live in the UK.. i installed the system at the end of last summer/autumn .. as of yet i have not seen real sun just low winter sun..

the most i have seen my panels producing is 90 amps or about 1250 watts.. the panels are set up in three arrays ruining into three separate controllers.. purely a guess this because i really dont know but even in the summer i dont see more than maybe 1800 watts (in total) coming in from the panels.. but this really is a guess..

if i do get more i will have to think about some bigger controllers.. currently i have 2 x 40 amp and 1 x 60 amp controllers..

trog
What voltage are your batteries running at? 48v? No way your able to get 8 days off 9.6kwh.
I use Daly BMS's and epever solar charge controllers as they integrate into home assistant and I can track and record everything.
 
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What voltage are your batteries running at? 48v? No way your able to get 8 days off 9.6kwh.
I use Daly BMS's and epever solar charge controllers as they integrate into home assistant and I can track and record everything.

did i say 8 days.. i dont think so.. i dont connect directly to house mains.. i have run a separate minimal circuit into the house just for basic needs.. the panels are on my garden sheds roofs..

what are basic needs.. you tell me.. he he.. at the moment the system provides solar power when its there and mains power when it isnt.. in the winter its pretty useless in the summer maybe not so useless..

i have a similar but smaller system on my RV trailer..

trog
 
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Do the amps produced by other types of batteries compare with lead acid? I know you can get Lion battery's for a motorcycle, but don't know about a car?

The great thing about lead acid type is they are highly recycled because of the lead in them, but are other types recyclable or just disposed of?

So...not a great premise.

I've got a complex answer for you...but if you want to tune out then the answer is that's not how that works.


The long bit. I'm assuming that you've got a background in automotive of some sort. The terminology there is a bit different, but I'll provide a brief overview.
Cold Cranking Amps - The amount of energy that can be pulled from a storage device functionally instantly without damaging it
Energy Capacity - The total potential energy stored in the battery
Voltage - The difference in electronegativity between charged and ground state

Your voltage is determined by your chemistry. Basically, what you're doing is storing potential energy as chemical energy. In a lead-acid battery that's generally lead plates, stored in a solution of sulphuric acid. Consider the potential stored as Pb+ ions, H+ ions, and SO4- ions. This is that pesky high school chemistry stuff, where you looked up the electronegativity of stuff in huge tables. What you'll discover is that the reaction generates about 12 volts one way (with multiple chemical cells linked in series), and requires about 14 volts the other way to return to a charged state. This is why our charging voltages (in a car) are about 14 off of the alternator, but you've got 12 volts to actually use coming from the battery.

Energy capacity is a function of internal volumes and reactive surfaces. That's obtuse, so it may be easier to think of this as how much electrolyte you've got in the battery, which is really what is storing the charge. The catch on this is that there are practical limitations...hence why you cannot just make a lead acid battery with nearly pure sulfuric acid and boost capacity. Primarily, the electrolyte solution is also acting as a huge heat capacitor. Generally this means that your construction technique, and battery size, are what will influence energy capacity.

Now, the cold cranking amps. Unfortunately, this is going to be chemistry and reactive surfaces. Let's talk about why your car uses lead-acid. If you've got a big plate of lead, beaten out into a fine surface, there's a huge surface area inside the battery. One the flip side, the lead plate is a pain to deal with and requires additional construction techniques so as to not decompose when chemical reaction sites are inconsistent.
Less nerd speak, more practical speak. There's such a thing as a high cold cranking amp battery and a deep cycle battery. Why? One has thin plates, can convert a bunch of energy quickly due to having such a huge chemically reactive surface, but doesn't have an insane overall storage. The other has a much higher storage quantity, but cannot allow a huge draw because more of its internal space is dedicated to the energy storage medium. Lead-acid is great because both of these are possible, and a pain because given the chemistry they can't exactly store nutty amounts of power. Easy come-easy go.



Now, why not install lithium polymer batteries on cars? There are three reasons, so I'll summarize:
1) Cost. The cost of a lead acid battery is pennies when compared to a lithium polymer one. Old tech ain't bad.
2) Energy delivery. Lead-acid relies on huge electrode plates, meaning they can deliver their load faster without decomposing their internal chemistry. Lead-acid does off-gas hydrogen and volatile stuff just like li-ion and li-po. That said, when was the last time you saw a lead-acid battery pop? Only one in my lifetime, after being cranked to the moon for weeks and being underspeced.
3) Recharging. So, anyone that has any automotive background has had a trickle charger. Old cars were dumb, and people left lights on. Trickle charge the battery, take a half hour drive, and everything is right as rain. Why? Well, the engine sustains itself while running off of the charge from the alternator. The alternator is constantly charging the battery. They tolerate that well. li-po and li-ion don't...which is why they have specific charging circuits that deactivate once they detect the battery is full.


Now, the fringe benefits:
1) Lead-acid is stupid easy to recycle. There's a reason your get a core charge for them. Empty acid, wash, smelt old plates into new ones, reinstall acid, and you've got a "new" battery with about 2 new components. That is the plastic container and the terminals.
2) High tolerance for high temperatures. So...li-po and li-ion don't like freezing. They don't like temperatures near boiling. They don't like to sit next to stuff that goes from freezing to near boiling during regular operations. Lead acid basically tanks all of this.
3) Huge electrodes are cheap. We're looking at surface areas for chemical reactions to occur on. In a li-ion and li-po battery these are basically the electrodes jammed into them. Not a lot of surface area, so they generally have much smaller instantaneous power delivery. That's fine if you don't want your phone to explode in your pocket. It's not so fine when you have to charge a motor that compresses gas to 10-12:1 ratios before delivering a high potential spark to ignite the mixture and start combustion.
4) The infrastructure. I...will give this to Tesla. They have made li-ion batteries easier to source for themselves. It hasn't done great things for consumers...but it was a good direction. Now let's look at lead acid. Cores come in, and require minimal labor and parts to replace. New batteries are made through smelting of a relatively low temperature lead, and usage of sulfuric acid. Sulfuric acid is an industrial by-product used in plenty of places. This means that getting lead acid batteries is an order of magnitude easier...and ironically more environmentally friendly.
5) Yes, I said environmentally friendly. That's despite the massive fume hoods and other requirements to smelt lead. Funny that. Lithium extraction requires removal or ore, processing with acids to remove the unwanted slag, chemical reconstitution of the Lithium into a usable form, and fabrication of a cell. Recycling is a joke...because those cells yield compounds that volatilize in an oxygen environment and have potentially off-gassed much of their relatively costly bits due to the love of fast charging and overcharging. In short, they often don't see recycling because the environment and qualifications to recycle them basically price them out of being economical. This is despite just railing on about how expensive they are to make. Go figure.



So...it is possible to design a li-ion or li-po battery to replace a lead acid one. It'll have a shorter life. It'll have a larger number of cells, so that enough amperage can safely be pulled at once. Because of all of those cells, it'll probably be heavier than the lead acid alternative. It will require much greater temperature controls to prevent decay during usage. It'll require a complex charging circuit, and will be far more prone to failure if cranked multiple times in a row (given how the charging circuit will have to work).
In short, it can be done. It is not because for every good things there are three bad things. Ironically, old school tech is infinitely more suited to things than newer stuff.




-I laugh at this as I review. Right now, inside your car, is likely an air filter. It probably has an expanded metal mesh, embedded in an isomer, with a paper filter. The isomer is a 10+ year old formulation. The metal mesh is created on machines from the 1920's. The paper filter is largely indistinguishable from those found in the 1950's. It's amazing how much "archaic" stuff exists. It's also amazing that despite having all this time to design new stuff, often times the old ways are still economically the best.
I'd say there's irony in being on a tech forum stating that new tech is not a solution. That said, I recognize that newer is often confused with better. I then crack open a cheap UPS and discover a series of lead acid batteries...and find it amusing that what we trust is different than what we think. Food for thought.-
 
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So...not a great premise.

I've got a complex answer for you...but if you want to tune out then the answer is that's not how that works.


The long bit. I'm assuming that you've got a background in automotive of some sort. The terminology there is a bit different, but I'll provide a brief overview.
Cold Cranking Amps - The amount of energy that can be pulled from a storage device functionally instantly without damaging it
Energy Capacity - The total potential energy stored in the battery
Voltage - The difference in electronegativity between charged and ground state

Your voltage is determined by your chemistry. Basically, what you're doing is storing potential energy as chemical energy. In a lead-acid battery that's generally lead plates, stored in a solution of sulphuric acid. Consider the potential stored as Pb+ ions, H+ ions, and SO4- ions. This is that pesky high school chemistry stuff, where you looked up the electronegativity of stuff in huge tables. What you'll discover is that the reaction generates about 12 volts one way (with multiple chemical cells linked in series), and requires about 14 volts the other way to return to a charged state. This is why our charging voltages (in a car) are about 14 off of the alternator, but you've got 12 volts to actually use coming from the battery.

Energy capacity is a function of internal volumes and reactive surfaces. That's obtuse, so it may be easier to think of this as how much electrolyte you've got in the battery, which is really what is storing the charge. The catch on this is that there are practical limitations...hence why you cannot just make a lead acid battery with nearly pure sulfuric acid and boost capacity. Primarily, the electrolyte solution is also acting as a huge heat capacitor. Generally this means that your construction technique, and battery size, are what will influence energy capacity.

Now, the cold cranking amps. Unfortunately, this is going to be chemistry and reactive surfaces. Let's talk about why your car uses lead-acid. If you've got a big plate of lead, beaten out into a fine surface, there's a huge surface area inside the battery. One the flip side, the lead plate is a pain to deal with and requires additional construction techniques so as to not decompose when chemical reaction sites are inconsistent.
Less nerd speak, more practical speak. There's such a thing as a high cold cranking amp battery and a deep cycle battery. Why? One has thin plates, can convert a bunch of energy quickly due to having such a huge chemically reactive surface, but doesn't have an insane overall storage. The other has a much higher storage quantity, but cannot allow a huge draw because more of its internal space is dedicated to the energy storage medium. Lead-acid is great because both of these are possible, and a pain because given the chemistry they can't exactly store nutty amounts of power. Easy come-easy go.



Now, why not install lithium polymer batteries on cars? There are three reasons, so I'll summarize:
1) Cost. The cost of a lead acid battery is pennies when compared to a lithium polymer one. Old tech ain't bad.
2) Energy delivery. Lead-acid relies on huge electrode plates, meaning they can deliver their load faster without decomposing their internal chemistry. Lead-acid does off-gas hydrogen and volatile stuff just like li-ion and li-po. That said, when was the last time you saw a lead-acid battery pop? Only one in my lifetime, after being cranked to the moon for weeks and being underspeced.
3) Recharging. So, anyone that has any automotive background has had a trickle charger. Old cars were dumb, and people left lights on. Trickle charge the battery, take a half hour drive, and everything is right as rain. Why? Well, the engine sustains itself while running off of the charge from the alternator. The alternator is constantly charging the battery. They tolerate that well. li-po and li-ion don't...which is why they have specific charging circuits that deactivate once they detect the battery is full.


Now, the fringe benefits:
1) Lead-acid is stupid easy to recycle. There's a reason your get a core charge for them. Empty acid, wash, smelt old plates into new ones, reinstall acid, and you've got a "new" battery with about 2 new components. That is the plastic container and the terminals.
2) High tolerance for high temperatures. So...li-po and li-ion don't like freezing. They don't like temperatures near boiling. They don't like to sit next to stuff that goes from freezing to near boiling during regular operations. Lead acid basically tanks all of this.
3) Huge electrodes are cheap. We're looking at surface areas for chemical reactions to occur on. In a li-ion and li-po battery these are basically the electrodes jammed into them. Not a lot of surface area, so they generally have much smaller instantaneous power delivery. That's fine if you don't want your phone to explode in your pocket. It's not so fine when you have to charge a motor that compresses gas to 10-12:1 ratios before delivering a high potential spark to ignite the mixture and start combustion.
4) The infrastructure. I...will give this to Tesla. They have made li-ion batteries easier to source for themselves. It hasn't done great things for consumers...but it was a good direction. Now let's look at lead acid. Cores come in, and require minimal labor and parts to replace. New batteries are made through smelting of a relatively low temperature lead, and usage of sulfuric acid. Sulfuric acid is an industrial by-product used in plenty of places. This means that getting lead acid batteries is an order of magnitude easier...and ironically more environmentally friendly.
5) Yes, I said environmentally friendly. That's despite the massive fume hoods and other requirements to smelt lead. Funny that. Lithium extraction requires removal or ore, processing with acids to remove the unwanted slag, chemical reconstitution of the Lithium into a usable form, and fabrication of a cell. Recycling is a joke...because those cells yield compounds that volatilize in an oxygen environment and have potentially off-gassed much of their relatively costly bits due to the love of fast charging and overcharging. In short, they often don't see recycling because the environment and qualifications to recycle them basically price them out of being economical. This is despite just railing on about how expensive they are to make. Go figure.



So...it is possible to design a li-ion or li-po battery to replace a lead acid one. It'll have a shorter life. It'll have a larger number of cells, so that enough amperage can safely be pulled at once. Because of all of those cells, it'll probably be heavier than the lead acid alternative. It will require much greater temperature controls to prevent decay during usage. It'll require a complex charging circuit, and will be far more prone to failure if cranked multiple times in a row (given how the charging circuit will have to work).
In short, it can be done. It is not because for every good things there are three bad things. Ironically, old school tech is infinitely more suited to things than newer stuff.




-I laugh at this as I review. Right now, inside your car, is likely an air filter. It probably has an expanded metal mesh, embedded in an isomer, with a paper filter. The isomer is a 10+ year old formulation. The metal mesh is created on machines from the 1920's. The paper filter is largely indistinguishable from those found in the 1950's. It's amazing how much "archaic" stuff exists. It's also amazing that despite having all this time to design new stuff, often times the old ways are still economically the best.
I'd say there's irony in being on a tech forum stating that new tech is not a solution. That said, I recognize that newer is often confused with better. I then crack open a cheap UPS and discover a series of lead acid batteries...and find it amusing that what we trust is different than what we think. Food for thought.-
Pretty much every battery has a place still within our electronics don't see many people commenting about the alkaline battery they use daily in their remotes. Environment and density dictate what we use.
Here in Thailand lithium car batteries are more available probably because there no chance of a freeze here and no one understands the charging process.

I looked at a domestic pumped hydro battery but the sheer volume of water I would need to store was insane but that didn't make it a bad idea just personally I didn't like the idea of gigantic galvanized water tanks on my picturesque Thai farm.

I guess the saying "if it's not broke, don't fix it" applies to batteries. All chemistry types get fine tuned so saying a lead acid is ancient tech can be a false assumption it's a chemistry that works perfect for certain uses so why reinvent the wheel and don't knock them as we might need poor old lead acid for our solar homes and UPS's in the future when we have no lithium and no alternative.

Hopefully we get rid of batteries all together and all have clean free energy in the future.
 
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