• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Yoga S740 - TS questions

ckebudi

New Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2020
Messages
10 (0.15/day)
Hello everyone,
I bought my laptop just over a month and I've been trying to undervolt my CPU.

I think i found the best parameters to my processor i7-1065G7, which is -53.7 mV (core and cache), but I'm not sure if i can improve something else. Any comments?

In the first days that I performed the undervolt, I achieved surprising results in the Cinebench R 23, reaching 5000 points.
After some parameter changes, I was never able to get the same values again.

For last, do I have to worry about the yellow flag of "EDP Other"?
Below are the prints of my gamming profile.


Thanks!

1.PNG

4.PNG


3.PNG
 

Attachments

  • 2.PNG
    2.PNG
    88.4 KB · Views: 27

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
2,739 (0.59/day)
After some parameter changes, I was never able to get the same values again.
The first problem I see is that you have reduced the turbo ratio limits to 32. That reduces performance. Intel CPUs have been engineered so they can run reliably up to 100°C. Your laptop manufacturer reduced the thermal throttling temperature to 97°C so it is extra safe. The default turbo ratios from top to bottom are 39, 38, 35, 35. Hopefully your main profile that you use when running Cinebench is set for maximum performance.

A Speed Shift EPP setting of 128 can reduce maximum performance. I would not set EPP higher than 80. You can adjust this on the main ThrottleStop screen. Just click on 128 and you can edit this value.

Most recent computers running Windows 10 can mange the EPP value appropriately. For a test, clear the ThrottleStop Speed Shift EPP check box. Open the FIVR window and watch in the monitoring table to see what Speed Shift EPP value the CPU is using. Now go into the system tray and move the Windows power slider back and forth from right to left to right. What EPP values does Window use? On many computers, Windows will use an EPP value of 84 when the adjuster is set to Best Performance. That is fine. If Windows can handle this, no need to check this option in ThrottleStop.

EDP Other
That one by itself is usually not important. Open Limit Reasons while Cinebench is running. Things turning red under the CORE column are the important flags to watch for.

Have you tried doing some Cinebench testing with the core offset set much higher than the cache offset? Bump the core up in steps of -25 mV and watch for any changes in performance or temperatures. I have never tried doing this on a 1065G7 so I am not sure if this will help or not. I know it helps the H series and it seems to help the U series too. The cache offset voltage is the limiting factor. Many people are surprised how far they can push when they are only adjusting the core offset higher.

Make sure Lock PROCHOT Offset is checked in the Options window. Lenovo has PROCHOT Offset set to 3 on your laptop which is OK. It is wise to Lock this option so it does not randomly change.
 

ckebudi

New Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2020
Messages
10 (0.15/day)
The first problem I see is that you have reduced the turbo ratio limits to 32. That reduces performance. Intel CPUs have been engineered so they can run reliably up to 100°C. Your laptop manufacturer reduced the thermal throttling temperature to 97°C so it is extra safe. The default turbo ratios from top to bottom are 39, 38, 35, 35. Hopefully your main profile that you use when running Cinebench is set for maximum performance.

A Speed Shift EPP setting of 128 can reduce maximum performance. I would not set EPP higher than 80. You can adjust this on the main ThrottleStop screen. Just click on 128 and you can edit this value.

Most recent computers running Windows 10 can mange the EPP value appropriately. For a test, clear the ThrottleStop Speed Shift EPP check box. Open the FIVR window and watch in the monitoring table to see what Speed Shift EPP value the CPU is using. Now go into the system tray and move the Windows power slider back and forth from right to left to right. What EPP values does Window use? On many computers, Windows will use an EPP value of 84 when the adjuster is set to Best Performance. That is fine. If Windows can handle this, no need to check this option in ThrottleStop.

That one by itself is usually not important. Open Limit Reasons while Cinebench is running. Things turning red under the CORE column are the important flags to watch for.

Have you tried doing some Cinebench testing with the core offset set much higher than the cache offset? Bump the core up in steps of -25 mV and watch for any changes in performance or temperatures. I have never tried doing this on a 1065G7 so I am not sure if this will help or not. I know it helps the H series and it seems to help the U series too. The cache offset voltage is the limiting factor. Many people are surprised how far they can push when they are only adjusting the core offset higher.

Make sure Lock PROCHOT Offset is checked in the Options window. Lenovo has PROCHOT Offset set to 3 on your laptop which is OK. It is wise to Lock this option so it does not randomly change.

Hello @unclewebb , thank you so much for your answer.

Gaming profile is adjusted to reduce the turbo while playing, as these are relatively light to run. Do you suggest leaving the turbo at maximum even playing (39,38,35,35)?

When I ran the Cinebench R 23 with the turbo at maximum (39,38,35,35), I reached a score of 4200 (practically the same as with the turbo at 3.2 Ghz). It happened because turbo gets reduced fast to 2.5Ghz and it wound't change while rendering.

Changing the speed shift from 128 to 80 also did not provide relevant changes.
However, when I moved Windows Power Slider, the EPP value was 63 (no idea why).

I decreased 25mV in relation to the offset cache, becoming -78mV core offset and -53 cache offset. Unfortunately, the result was BSOD.

The strangest thing was that when I restarted the PC, I deleted "ini" file and set the original parameters (-53mV; -53mV). For some reason, I got an amazing result in Cinebench (almost 5000 points!). There was a small reduction from 3.2Ghz to 3.0
Any idea of the cause of this? It doesn't seem to make sense, since these numbers were already being used.

Thank you!
5.PNG
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
2,739 (0.59/day)
when I moved Windows Power Slider, the EPP value was 63
63 is a good value for EPP. I would let Windows 10 manage this. Use the Windows power slider and do not check the Speed Shift EPP option.

Check the FIVR - Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits box. Have you checked the Lock PROCHOT Offset feature yet?

The 1065G7 has a TDP-up and a TDP-down mode.


If Lenovo is using this feature, the TDP can randomly vary between 25W, 15W and 12W. There might not be any way to control this so performance can vary significantly. Sometimes something simple like booting up for the first time vs a sleep resume cycle can change the power limit of your computer. If you are using some Lenovo fan control software then it might vary your turbo power limits depending on what mode it is in. Quiet mode on some computers is just a trick that significantly lowers the turbo power limits.

If your CPU drops to 2.5 GHz, there is always a reason why.

When running a Cinebench test, open Limit Reasons. Watch for any power limit or thermal throttling flags lighting up red under CORE. Also watch the CPU speed and power consumption that ThrottleStop is reporting. If you see one of the power limits (PL1 or PL2) you will likely see a power consumption value that stays very close to 15W or whatever value your CPU is being limited to.

Use whatever turbo ratios work best for you. I prefer using full speed. If there is a throttling problem, I try to solve the problem, not cover it up by slowing the CPU down.

You might want to try using the older Cinebench R20. It looks the same as R23 but it only does one pass so it is much quicker when running some tests.

Cinebench R20
 

ckebudi

New Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2020
Messages
10 (0.15/day)
Hi @unclewebb ,

Thank you for your reply.
I think I figured it out what happened.

In some tests that I have done, I forgot to turn the performance mode on and it directly impacted on the final result of tests.
However, I changed the turbo ratios by default (39,38,35,35) and I ran a full antivirus test.
The temperature of CPU was reaching 100 degrees! Is that normal?

Thanks!
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
2,739 (0.59/day)
The temperature of CPU was reaching 100 degrees! Is that normal?
There are lots and lots of laptops being made with heatsinks and fans that are either inadequate or poorly installed. This has become the new normal. If I bought a laptop that ran at 100°C during an antivirus test, I would take the laptop back to the store and I would demand a refund.

I love using my 7 year old laptop. It is silent and as I type this, it is running at 40°C. Modern laptops with poor cooling are not for me.
 

ckebudi

New Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2020
Messages
10 (0.15/day)
This is so frustrating, @unclewebb ....
Is it possible to limitate my pc temperature? Even if I throttle my CPU speed.

Ill think about giving it back to Lenovo, I've got this laptop for less than a month.

Thank you
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
2,739 (0.59/day)
Is it possible to limit my pc temperature?
To try and fix this problem you would need to disassemble your laptop and see if Lenovo did a bad job of installing the heatsink. If it is a new laptop, why risk damaging it? Just send it back.

Here is a picture of the sorry heatsink that Lenovo used in my daughter's C930 laptop.


The amount of metal that Lenovo used in that heatsink is truly pathetic. Their design goal was barely adequate and they managed to achieve that. A slight load and temperatures skyrocket. It runs OK at over 90°C but there is no reason to design something so poorly. I would gladly pay an extra $20 bucks for a heatsink that was a little thicker than a piece of tin foil.

The 3 point mount is more bad design. They did drill some holes in it to make it look exotic. Kind of like a brake rotor on a race car. The copper layer or copper paint is microscopic.
 

ckebudi

New Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2020
Messages
10 (0.15/day)
@unclewebb
Omg... I can't believe it.
My frustration is heightened by the fact that I have researched premium laptops that do not tend to heat up.

If I send back to Lenovo, should I delete ThrottleStop?
Do you think that undervolt might have any influence with heating up? Or this is just about the heatsink?
I've seen some forums that don't recommend to undervolt 10th generation of Intel.
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
2,739 (0.59/day)
undervolt might have any influence with heating up
Yes it does. More voltage equals more heat. Reducing the voltage can help but it does not solve the problem if the real problem is bad design and a tiny heatsink.

I've seen some forums that don't recommend to undervolt 10th generation of Intel.
You should avoid those forums. Lots of people on the internet have no idea what they are talking about. The 10th Gen are no different than any previous generation. If a manufacturer leaves the voltage control register unlocked then it is always a good idea to reduce the voltage. This can reduce power consumption, reduce temperatures and reduce fan noise. A win win win situation.

I have researched premium laptops
How do you research anything? Any review site that is 100% honest will not have much hardware to review in a short period of time. They tend to talk around the problems and every crappy laptop sold gets a review score of 80% 85% or 90%. These scores are meaningless. How many review sites disassemble laptops and show you what is hiding inside? If Lenovo's sales documentation included a picture of that heatsink, I would have shopped elsewhere.
 

ckebudi

New Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2020
Messages
10 (0.15/day)
Yes it does. More voltage equals more heat. Reducing the voltage can help but it does not solve the problem if the real problem is bad design and a tiny heatsink.
But in this case, I just had less voltage, right? So, there is no possibilities to harm my PC because I undervolted my PC?

You should avoid those forums. Lots of people on the internet have no idea what they are talking about. The 10th Gen are no different than any previous generation. If a manufacturer leaves the voltage control register unlocked then it is always a good idea to reduce the voltage. This can reduce power consumption, reduce temperatures and reduce fan noise. A win win win situation.
That's what I thought!

How do you research anything? Any review site that is 100% honest will not have much hardware to review in a short period of time. They tend to talk around the problems and every crappy laptop sold gets a review score of 80% 85% or 90%. These scores are meaningless. How many review sites disassemble laptops and show you what is hiding inside? If Lenovo's sales documentation included a picture of that heatsink, I would have shopped elsewhere.

The fact that I live in Brazil makes the possibility of "premium" laptop options very small. I can choose between the Lenovo S740, Dell's XPS (much more expensive) or the Acer Swift 5. There is a channel on youtube that reviews the main Brazilian laptops and disassembles them. It's a bit complicated, as I can only trust one or two forums or channels.

If I send back to Lenovo, should I delete ThrottleStop?
This is important to know :)
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
2,739 (0.59/day)
This is important to know
If you think Lenovo is going to frown on what software you used on your computer that you paid for then delete it.

If your computer still runs, it is OK. You did not harm it. You just do not like it because it runs too hot. If you buy a similar laptop from Dell, it might run worse. There are a lot of laptops on the market that I would not want to own.
 

ckebudi

New Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2020
Messages
10 (0.15/day)
Hi @unclewebb,

I got my laptop back from Lenovo's repair center and for some reason they said I had a problem with my motherboard. They didn't explain what happned and changed my Mobo.
Anyway, I tested some options that you told me in the first post and looks like I'm getting better results.
CPU Core: -55.7
CPU Cache: - 30.7

But still, I got a PL1 Core when I ran Cinebench R20. Any thoughts?

PS1: When Cinebench starts, my cores didn't reach full turbo (39,38,35,35). It reaches (35,35,35,35). Is that common?

PS2: Sometimes temperature reaches 97 degrees when runs Cinebench. Is that a problem? I'm assuming that is not, since my processor can work fine with 100 degrees, right?

PS3: I realized that before running Throttlestop for the first time, my system used to limit CPU to 80 degrees. After starting the program (even without performing the undervolt), this limitation is released and does not return to the original pattern. Is it possible to return to this pattern? I deleted the .ini file and still the CPU limitation appears unlocked.

Thanks!!
TS1.PNG
TS2.PNG
TS3.PNG
ts4.PNG
results.PNG
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
2,739 (0.59/day)
I got a PL1 Core when I ran Cinebench R20. Any thoughts?
What power consumption was ThrottleStop reporting when this happened? Turn on the Log File option when testing so you have a record of CPU performance and any throttling.

The 1065G7 has a 15W TDP rating.

Some laptops are forced so long term, they do not exceed this limit. You are using a 30W setting in ThrottleStop for the long term turbo power limit. If your laptop is power limit throttling at 30W then that is normal considering your ThrottleStop settings.

my cores didn't reach full turbo (39,38,35,35). It reaches (35,35,35,35). Is that common?
Your CPU is designed to use the 35 multiplier when all 4 cores are active. When running Cinebench, your CPU is fully loaded so 35 is the maximum multiplier. Your results are normal.

temperature reaches 97 degrees when runs Cinebench.
I have already showed you that the heatsinks Lenovo uses are not overly robust. If you run your CPU at the default 15W TDP rating, your heatsink and temperatures will be OK. If you try to run a 15W CPU at 30W, your CPU is going to run HOT! When using ThrottleStop, you can run your CPU however you like. Hot and fast or cool and slow. Set the power limits to whatever makes you comfortable.

my system used to limit CPU to 80 degrees
This is controlled by the PROCHOT Offset setting in the Options window. Your screenshot shows PROCHOT Offset is checked and set to 3. Lock PROCHOT Offset is checked so this setting cannot be changed by any Lenovo software. If you want Lenovo to control this setting, clear both of these boxes and reboot. Lenovo using a PROCHOT Offset of 20 will have the CPU thermal throttling at 80°C instead of the Intel default 100°C. This is way below spec. It will limit maximum temperatures but this also limits maximum performance.

It is possible that Lenovo has changed this setting. How this used to work and how it works now might have changed. After using Lock, you always need to reboot to unlock this setting.
 

ckebudi

New Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2020
Messages
10 (0.15/day)
Thank you for the answer!

Here is the log file (attached).

Set the power limits to whatever makes you comfortable.
Do you think that I can reduce the lifetime of my processor with that?
 

Attachments

  • 2021-01-14.txt
    11.8 KB · Views: 9

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
2,739 (0.59/day)
Do you think that I can reduce the lifetime of my processor
Intel says that any temperature under 100°C is a "safe operating temperature". That is why Intel has set the thermal throttling temperature to 100°C for the vast majority of Core i CPUs they have produced in the last 12+ years. If this was causing Intel any problems with processors failing, they would have reduced the thermal throttling temperature years ago. They are comfortable so you should be comfortable too. Locking the PROCHOT Offset value to 3 will have thermal throttling starting at 97°C. This makes your CPU extra safe. Use an offset of 5 so your CPU is extra, extra safe. Thermal throttling at 80°C is not necessary.

Your log file shows your CPU is power limit throttling at 30W which is what you told your CPU to do by setting the long term turbo power limit to 30W in ThrottleStop. That is about all your cooling system can handle so I would leave it there. If high temps causes too much fan noise or scares you, just lower this power limit to 25W or to whatever value you like.
 

ckebudi

New Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2020
Messages
10 (0.15/day)
I tryied using a lower power limit (25W), but in overall, temps were high too.
Now I feel confortable to keep using 30W as my power limit. Thank you so much for that!

Btw, when I changed the power limit back to 30W, I restarted my PC and realized that Speed shift value is variying a lot.
Sometimes it stucks on zero, or it varies between zero and 84, but mostly to zero (even moving Windows power slider back and forth from right to left to right).
I also deleted ini file and restarted, but no idea what is going on
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
2,739 (0.59/day)
or it varies between zero and 84
Do you have Speed Shift EPP checked in ThrottleStop? If this box is not checked, Windows 10 has full control of the Speed Shift EPP setting. When a computer first boots up, Windows usually sets EPP to 0 so the CPU runs at maximum speed for a quicker boot up. After things settle down, Windows will automatically reduce the EPP value depending on what Windows power plan you are using. I would allow Windows to manage this setting. It may not be perfect but it is usually competent enough. You are trying to fix something that is not broken.
 

ckebudi

New Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2020
Messages
10 (0.15/day)
Got it... Makes sense.

It was weird, because I unplugged my laptop charger and things got back to normal. Now it varies 64 - 84 in performance mode.
Besides that, I ran Cinebench one more time and reached 99 degrees (even with BD PROCHOT and Lock Prochot Offset on).

1610667016898.png
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
2,739 (0.59/day)
I unplugged my laptop charger and things got back to normal
It is normal for Windows to use different EPP values depending on whether you are plugged in or running on battery power.

and reached 99 degrees
This is normal too. Thermal throttling is set to start at 97°C according to your screenshot. CPU temperatures can change instantaneously. A couple of degrees of overshoot before thermal throttling kicks in to control your CPU is normal. If you want 97°C to be your absolute max, try setting PROCHOT Offset to 5 to prevent this from happening. There is no reason to do this. The Intel default for PROCHOT Offset is 0. Intel is comfortable with their CPUs hitting 100°C or going a degree or two above this. I think some desktop computers allow you to bump the throttling temperature up to 115°C. That is a little excessive. 100°C is OK.
 
Top