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How To Connect Amplifier To Receiver?

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You are not crazy. Onkyo newer recievers click and loud when changing. I read this recently at the polk audio forums. Unfortunatly I can not remember the tecnical reason exactly other than it has something to do with the specific high end parts it is using. It is quite anoying and putting me off buying an onkyo to drive some rti-12's.
Look for some used gear at Canuckaudiomart.com. You will save a lot of coin.
I have a paradigm 270 v.3 for a center channel. This alone made a huge difference. Picked it up used for under a hundred.
And to answer one of your questions as well as my own... lol... ripped from a post at blu-ray forums from sj001 (This may solve your uncle's problems or reduce them.. Seems to work for many folks with Onkyo receivers)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Onkyo TX-SR-605: For those having "clicking" noise issues

I noticed a lot of people posting that they are having problems with this, myself included. Well, I figured the issue out. It wasn't a firmware or hardware defect. It was just some simple settings.

It has to do with the default Listening Mode preset, which is "previous used" or something. This seems to be especially problematic with the PS3.

If you go into setup, and to listening modes, and find you input that you are using, and switch it from the default to "direct" on all of them, the clicking issue will be gone!

Changing the default to direct will remove the clicking only because the receiver doesn't "remember" what mode you last used with each signal type. It will still click every time you change listening modes manually, and you'll need to change modes manually every time you play something if you want to use any of those modes.

That said, it should definitely stop the receiver from spazzing out when things like the PS3 change signal types repeatedly. Then there would only be the click when you change the mode yourself.

He also mentioned an "OOMF" from the speakers when the clicks happen. That shouldn't happen ever when changing modes, by design of the internal circuitry, but it may be unavoidable (bad design or worn out/defective parts?) on that particular unit :confused:
 

Thatguy

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If you really want a great sounding room, look into room treatment. It'll pay back huge dividends in sound quality.
 
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If you really want a great sounding room, look into room treatment. It'll pay back huge dividends in sound quality.

Yeah, maybe let the guy get his speakers first at least before you start selling him accoustic dampening and baffles :rolleyes: On the other hand if you're talking optimal speaker placement, and obstruction minimization, then yes.

Room preparation (whether simple furniture and speaker placement or sound deadening, baffles, and other fancy shite) would definitely help on absolute sound quality, but what he has is borderline overkill for the source material he's using (downloaded movies and mp3s), and from the impression I got from him, I don't think he wanted to alter the room too much. (of course, that may change once he's set up... I think we all know how hearing it sound good makes us want to hear it sound "good + 1") Switching to Blu-ray movies and FLAC audio is a much cheaper way to vastly improve the sound, with an almost nil pricetag. To be honest though, I think he'll be happy just where he is now.
 
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You're correct, well maybe I listened to music on the Logitech Z-5500 that is why it sounds like shit anyways. But when I listen to music on pro logic it sounds horrible. Maybe it's just the Logitechs.

yes, lossless is just the sound quality, it does not change weather its Mono, Stereo 5.1 or 13.1

most music is likely to be in Stereo. you can upmix it using receivers with Dolby pro logic and such but i do not use it as i think it sounds like crap.
 

Thatguy

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Yeah, maybe let the guy get his speakers first at least before you start selling him accoustic dampening and baffles :rolleyes: On the other hand if you're talking optimal speaker placement, and obstruction minimization, then yes.

Room preparation (whether simple furniture and speaker placement or sound deadening, baffles, and other fancy shite) would definitely help on absolute sound quality, but what he has is borderline overkill for the source material he's using (downloaded movies and mp3s), and from the impression I got from him, I don't think he wanted to alter the room too much. (of course, that may change once he's set up... I think we all know how hearing it sound good makes us want to hear it sound "good + 1") Switching to Blu-ray movies and FLAC audio is a much cheaper way to vastly improve the sound, with an almost nil pricetag. To be honest though, I think he'll be happy just where he is now.

Learn to understand this, most modern equipment offers nearly flat response from 20-20 .

Speaker placement etc, its all hoopla and BS, it trys to correct for bad room behavior. If you really want GOOD sound, fix the room.

Flubby bass is rarely a subwoofer problem, its a reflection and rining issues, smeared highs and inaudiable voice and other problems, mostly a problem with the room.

In fact any average 300-500 soround sound system is going to benchmakr pretty close to any 3000 system. The difference in quality will mostly be attributed to the room.

Theres alot of BS in the audio world. Most of it spurred by inattention to dealing with room response issues and the various attempts at magical fixs to correct it.

Diffuse, dampen and absorb.
 
T

twilyth

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Learn to understand this, most modern equipment offers nearly flat response from 20-20 .

Speaker placement etc, its all hoopla and BS, it trys to correct for bad room behavior. If you really want GOOD sound, fix the room.

Flubby bass is rarely a subwoofer problem, its a reflection and rining issues, smeared highs and inaudiable voice and other problems, mostly a problem with the room.

In fact any average 300-500 soround sound system is going to benchmakr pretty close to any 3000 system. The difference in quality will mostly be attributed to the room.

Theres alot of BS in the audio world. Most of it spurred by inattention to dealing with room response issues and the various attempts at magical fixs to correct it.

Diffuse, dampen and absorb.

Sorry dude, but freq responses aren't flat, even with mid-range speakers. If you're going by reviews in places like Sound and Vision (formerly Stereo Review), then sure that's true. But that's only because they won't do a decent review with decay and frequency charts unless the speakers are at least $1000 per box. For those prices the response damn well better be fucking flat.

But even if what you're saying were true in general, there is still a huge difference between speakers in terms of the decay rate at various frequencies - what would normally be called clarity or crispness. My NHT classic 3's are significantly clearer than the Polk Monitor 40's. Maybe the 40's are more low end than mid range, but they're still pretty good and the NHT's aren't infinitely better, but enough so that the difference is quite obvious. And even those aren't as tight as I would like on the low end but they're still pretty amazing.
 
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Speaker placement etc, its all hoopla and BS, it trys to correct for bad room behavior. If you really want GOOD sound, fix the room.

Are you saying that investing $10k upwards breaking walls and employing builders and architects is a better than spending a few hours positioning the speakers correctly?
 

Thatguy

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Are you saying that investing $10k upwards breaking walls and employing builders and architects is a better than spending a few hours positioning the speakers correctly?

lol, you don't have to go that crazy unless you are trying to isolate, some simple corner bass traps, a diffuser panel or to and some very rudmintary cloud diffusion techniqoues will net massive returns in performance in any listening enviroment.

Only a studio would worry about isolation, do to errant noise getting into a microphone, you just want to control the room accoustics to reduce, smearing, flubby bass, sympathetic ringing, unintelligable voices the list goes on. Its doesn't have to be super crazy either, thats the best part.

So to recap some 703 fibergalss, some wood frame a bit of fabric and a stapler and some glue, you can make any room sound 100X better which conversly will make your experience more enjoyable.
 

Thatguy

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Sorry dude, but freq responses aren't flat, even with mid-range speakers. If you're going by reviews in places like Sound and Vision (formerly Stereo Review), then sure that's true. But that's only because they won't do a decent review with decay and frequency charts unless the speakers are at least $1000 per box. For those prices the response damn well better be fucking flat.

But even if what you're saying were true in general, there is still a huge difference between speakers in terms of the decay rate at various frequencies - what would normally be called clarity or crispness. My NHT classic 3's are significantly clearer than the Polk Monitor 40's. Maybe the 40's are more low end than mid range, but they're still pretty good and the NHT's aren't infinitely better, but enough so that the difference is quite obvious. And even those aren't as tight as I would like on the low end but they're still pretty amazing.


your totally full of shit. anytime you wanna throw down on a blind listening test in a proper accoustic enviroment for a serious bet, let me know. I'll test those golden ears. In fact I'd bet money that you couldn't identify your own speakers out of 3 pairs in a double blind test.

Your giving horrid advice, the answer isn't to blow more money on gear, its to get a handle on the enviroment, once you do that the gear works properly.

Most speaker system have sub 2db deviations across the bandwidth on average at normal 76db listening volumes.
 
T

twilyth

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your totally full of shit. anytime you wanna throw down on a blind listening test in a proper accoustic enviroment for a serious bet, let me know. I'll test those golden ears. In fact I'd bet money that you couldn't identify your own speakers out of 3 pairs in a double blind test.

Your giving horrid advice, the answer isn't to blow more money on gear, its to get a handle on the enviroment, once you do that the gear works properly.

Most speaker system have sub 2db deviations across the bandwidth on average at normal 76db listening volumes.
No you're full of shit. Anybody who has ever picked up an audio magazine knows what I've said is accurate. And my hearing isn't at issue. Your ignorance is.
 
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Are you saying that investing $10k upwards breaking walls and employing builders and architects is a better than spending a few hours positioning the speakers correctly?

you can line the walls with neoprene or quietrock before they go up or buy panels, traps and risers. none of these solutions cost anywhere near $10,000.
 
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lol, you don't have to go that crazy unless you are trying to isolate, some simple corner bass traps, a diffuser panel or to and some very rudmintary cloud diffusion techniqoues will net massive returns in performance in any listening enviroment.

Only a studio would worry about isolation, do to errant noise getting into a microphone, you just want to control the room accoustics to reduce, smearing, flubby bass, sympathetic ringing, unintelligable voices the list goes on. Its doesn't have to be super crazy either, thats the best part.

So to recap some 703 fibergalss, some wood frame a bit of fabric and a stapler and some glue, you can make any room sound 100X better which conversly will make your experience more enjoyable.

Seems like a lot of effort, but fair enough I was under the impression you meant making the room bigger or something.

you can line the walls with neoprene or quietrock before they go up or buy panels, traps and risers. none of these solutions cost anywhere near $10,000.

You can do that I guess.
 

Thatguy

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No you're full of shit. Anybody who has ever picked up an audio magazine knows what I've said is accurate. And my hearing isn't at issue. Your ignorance is.

Right, audio magazines that push the sales of equipment as a form of ad revenues are really reliable.
 

Thatguy

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Seems like a lot of effort, but fair enough I was under the impression you meant making the room bigger or something.



You can do that I guess.

The effort is totally worth it, if you have poor performing equipment, it will make finding and fixing those deficencys pretty easy.

First piece of advice I have, buy a cheap $200 room response measuring kit from Behringer, I know its behringer but there kit is really pretty good. Identify the problems, formulate solutions. The biggest ones I see are uncontrolled ringing in the upper mid range and complete lack of bass control.

Its not rocket science and with a room measuring kit, you'll be able to pinpoint issues and make needed adjustments.

Its likely the best $200 you'll spend in your quest for Great sound quality.

think of room treatment like this, how intelligable is a stereo in a crowded subway train at 5:30pm ? its the background chatter ruins the audio with overarching noise. think of reflection and modal ringing the same way.

Same thing goes for a unctonrolled listening enviroment. all the reflective rining does the same thing.

It doesn't even have to be exspensive. I'd bet for under $1000 you could make the average room sound 10X better easily.

Don't buy foam products, they don't work for shit.

fiberglass 703 panels and mineral wool. Very good, very cheap, very effective.

Foam works of if you have something way high up rining like 12Khz and up. Still 703 and mineral wool are better.

I have a treated room in my house that serves as a mixing and recording area. Surprising few notice the overly large sofas " filled with 703 inside"

the corenr traps that look like Cd racks
The difuses on the wall behind the cloth I printed pictures on.

Get creative. My basements has phenomenal sound, so good everybody comes to my house for the game.
 
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Changing the default to direct will remove the clicking only because the receiver doesn't "remember" what mode you last used with each signal type. It will still click every time you change listening modes manually, and you'll need to change modes manually every time you play something if you want to use any of those modes.

That said, it should definitely stop the receiver from spazzing out when things like the PS3 change signal types repeatedly. Then there would only be the click when you change the mode yourself.

He also mentioned an "OOMF" from the speakers when the clicks happen. That shouldn't happen ever when changing modes, by design of the internal circuitry, but it may be unavoidable (bad design or worn out/defective parts?) on that particular unit :confused:
Mine clicks when the sub-wofer goes into power saving mode.It is a pain but you get used to it,It also click`s when switching between cable/sat- BD/DVD- /Game modes,Has something to do with the HDPC encoding on the HDMI channels.Other then that it runs like a champ,I`m actually looking at a thx-609 or thx-709 series receiver to upgrade my 509 one.Yeah i need room shaker movies.
 
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Mine clicks when the sub-wofer goes into power saving mode.It is a pain but you get used to it,It also click`s when switching between cable/sat- BD/DVD- /Game modes,Has something to do with the HDPC encoding on the HDMI channels.Other then that it runs like a champ,I`m actually looking at a thx-609 or thx-709 series receiver to upgrade my 509 one.Yeah i need room shaker movies.

I suggest you look into the Yamaha Rx-V667. It looks and sounds pretty good.
 

Thatguy

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Really? You think your opinion is the same league? Pompous much?

in this matter where I have exstensive experience in the audio recording and mixing sphere, yeah likely it does. I am not selling you anything but truth. the room is the biggest problem. the equipment is secondary. I have mixed more then one record on a set of $25 speakers.
 
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twilyth

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in this matter where I have exstensive experience in the audio recording and mixing sphere, yeah likely it does. I am not selling you anything but truth. the room is the biggest problem. the equipment is secondary. I have mixed more then one record on a set of $25 speakers.
So you're an expert then? Tell me what the significance of a frequency decay chart is. What does it tell you - you know, if it actually mattered that is.
 

Thatguy

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So you're an expert then? Tell me what the significance of a frequency decay chart is. What does it tell you - you know, if it actually mattered that is.

Great, tell me how modal ringing effect perception of bass in a porrly sized rom with a 1:1:1 ratio.
 
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Get a room guys!!!!

Great, tell me how modal ringing effect perception of bass in a porrly sized rom with a 1:1:1 ratio.

Preferably one that is sound proof... ;)
 
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twilyth

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Great, tell me how modal ringing effect perception of bass in a porrly sized rom with a 1:1:1 ratio.

I don't speak gibberish and you're the one claiming to be the expert. What's the matter? No luck with google or wikipedia?
 

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Sorry dude, but freq responses aren't flat, even with mid-range speakers. If you're going by reviews in places like Sound and Vision (formerly Stereo Review), then sure that's true. But that's only because they won't do a decent review with decay and frequency charts unless the speakers are at least $1000 per box. For those prices the response damn well better be fucking flat.

But even if what you're saying were true in general, there is still a huge difference between speakers in terms of the decay rate at various frequencies - what would normally be called clarity or crispness. My NHT classic 3's are significantly clearer than the Polk Monitor 40's. Maybe the 40's are more low end than mid range, but they're still pretty good and the NHT's aren't infinitely better, but enough so that the difference is quite obvious. And even those aren't as tight as I would like on the low end but they're still pretty amazing.

your totally full of shit. anytime you wanna throw down on a blind listening test in a proper accoustic enviroment for a serious bet, let me know. I'll test those golden ears. In fact I'd bet money that you couldn't identify your own speakers out of 3 pairs in a double blind test.

Your giving horrid advice, the answer isn't to blow more money on gear, its to get a handle on the enviroment, once you do that the gear works properly.

Most speaker system have sub 2db deviations across the bandwidth on average at normal 76db listening volumes.

No you're full of shit. Anybody who has ever picked up an audio magazine knows what I've said is accurate. And my hearing isn't at issue. Your ignorance is.

I don't see how anyone can think speakers all sound nearly the same - come on Thatguy! :shadedshu There's absolutely huge variations in frequency response and tone, all caused by objectionable resonances, poor materials and the like. It's way more than just having a flat response. You can equalize two different-sounding speakers within 1db of each other with some super duper graphic equalizer and they'll still sound noticeably different, because of these effects. The more expensive ones generally sounding better, of course.

On top of that, no speaker has a 2db flat response from 20Hz to 20KHz, except possibly for the odd exotic high end job costing thousands. And since one driver can't reproduce all frequencies, what happens at the crossover frequencies?

In my experience - in general - a good system always sounds good and a bad one bad. Even if you do stupid extremes like position your quality speakers behind the sofa. They'll sound muffled for sure, but will still retain their general quality sound. They'll still sound 'good' even if you turn the bass and treble controls all the way down, so you get lots of peaky mid and no extremes. Even if you screw up that graphic equalizer with wild, random settings. The sound will be unpleasant, but the basic quality of those speakers will always shine through. And you don't need bloody golden ears to notice, either.

On the other hand, a shit speaker will sounds, err, shit, whatever you do with it and however good the signal being fed it is. It can simply be improved noticeably, but will still retain all its annoying faults.

And yes, optimising room acoustics will of course help to get the best from a decent system and matter sod all to a poor one.

Modern electronics on the other hand, can and will sound remarkably similar, being largely free of distortion and frequency response variations. However, the differences are still there and can often be clearly heard. I can tell you that I can easily hear the difference between my CD player, onboard sound and two Creative sound cards (budget and md price) despite them all having a nearly perfect frequency response. Why? Because of the different coloration and distortion they introduce, including that caused by impedance matching. That alone can make a very noticeable difference.

To clarify the obvious, the audible differences between these different devices all stem from their analog side ie D/A converter and associated analog circuitry, not the digital side. The data is the same, regardless of how you transmit it. If it wasn't, then the existence of digital computers would be impossible and we wouldn't have physics as we know it.

So yes, twilyth is right.
 

Thatguy

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I don't see how anyone can think speakers all sound nearly the same - come on Thatguy! :shadedshu There's absolutely huge variations in frequency response and tone, all caused by objectionable resonances, poor materials and the like. It's way more than just having a flat response. You can equalize two different-sounding speakers within 1db of each other with some super duper graphic equalizer and they'll still sound noticeably different, because of these effects. The more expensive ones generally sounding better, of course.

On top of that, no speaker has a 2db flat response from 20Hz to 20KHz, except possibly for the odd exotic high end job costing thousands. And since one driver can't reproduce all frequencies, what happens at the crossover frequencies?

In my experience - in general - a good system always sounds good and a bad one bad. Even if you do stupid extremes like position your quality speakers behind the sofa. They'll sound muffled for sure, but will still retain their general quality sound. They'll still sound 'good' even if you turn the bass and treble controls all the way down, so you get lots of peaky mid and no extremes. Even if you screw up that graphic equalizer with wild, random settings. The sound will be unpleasant, but the basic quality of those speakers will always shine through. And you don't need bloody golden ears to notice, either.

On the other hand, a shit speaker will sounds, err, shit, whatever you do with it and however good the signal being fed it is. It can simply be improved noticeably, but will still retain all its annoying faults.

And yes, optimising room acoustics will of course help to get the best from a decent system and matter sod all to a poor one.

Modern electronics on the other hand, can and will sound remarkably similar, being largely free of distortion and frequency response variations. However, the differences are still there and can often be clearly heard. I can tell you that I can easily hear the difference between my CD player, onboard sound and two Creative sound cards (budget and md price) despite them all having a nearly perfect frequency response. Why? Because of the different coloration and distortion they introduce, including that caused by impedance matching. That alone can make a very noticeable difference.

To clarify the obvious, the audible differences between these different devices all stem from their analog side ie D/A converter and associated analog circuitry, not the digital side. The data is the same, regardless of how you transmit it. If it wasn't, then the existence of digital computers would be impossible and we wouldn't have physics as we know it.

So yes, twilyth is right.


Well designed speakers sound the same, as they should. The goal is not to color sound, it is to accurately reproduce it. that siad some speaker have certain EQ slopes, but they all sound relatively the same, as they should.

Its a bogus argument, if 2 sets of speaker sound different, one of them is broken. Room accoustics impact the listening enviroment more then the speakers do, some baffles just have near field interactions that some fine more preferably then others.

That siad, all good speaker of reasonable quality, sound the same. As they should. By design.

Twylth is wrong and so are you.
 
T

twilyth

Guest
Thanks man :toast:, but this guy, or rather thatguy, wouldn't know a cross over from a light switch. Don't waste your time. I just want to see how far he can go before he has to bail. :laugh:
 
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