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Have AIOs killed custom loops?

dgianstefani

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They don't have to, I've seen plenty of posts on here of melted blocks or warped tubes from pump fails. There is a reason most warnings are 60c max water temp, even running benches I never saw a water temp that high. I'm pretty sure though if the CPU is at 115c with a failed pump the acrylic block is going to be higher than 70c which is asking for a big problem
If the CPU is at 115 C the system has turned off, unless you've disabled that safeguard in the bios. Motherboards since for the last decade at least have often/always included alarms or again, automatic shut down if there's no signal detected on the pump/CPU cooler, along with a lot of other critical things. Again, you'd have to manually turn that off.

For example, I had to disable the alarm when I unplugged my chipset fans (case airflow more than enough).

I also had bad contact on my GPU block a while back due to a thermal pad getting folded, the system shut down under any load.

Without disabling a bunch of safeguards manually, or using third party separate controllers like an aquaro pump/fan system (unnecessary) I don't see how it's possible to have a failed pump without the system just turning off or throttling to the point it's heat output is minimal.
 
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I don't see how it's possible to have a failed pump without the system just turning off or throttling to the point it's heat output is minimal.
Yeah, modern systems are quite smart about that. IDK about AMD but I know Intel's cpu's will run without cooling of any kind other than the IHS, throttling freq, volts & load to try and stay below the 100c maximum. Of course if it can't do that then it'll just shut off.
 
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If the CPU is at 115 C the system has turned off, unless you've disabled that safeguard in the bios. Motherboards since for the last decade at least have often/always included alarms or again, automatic shut down if there's no signal detected on the pump/CPU cooler, along with a lot of other critical things. Again, you'd have to manually turn that off.

For example, I had to disable the alarm when I unplugged my chipset fans (case airflow more than enough).

I also had bad contact on my GPU block a while back due to a thermal pad getting folded, the system shut down under any load.

Without disabling a bunch of safeguards manually, or using third party separate controllers like an aquaro pump/fan system (unnecessary) I don't see how it's possible to have a failed pump without the system just turning off or throttling to the point it's heat output is minimal.
I can tell you every time the cpu hits thermtrip, it's at risk to be dead. The protection is not fool proof.
 
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Frankly I think watercooling the cpu nowadays is in 75% cases worthless.
if using headphones = almost worthless
if mild oc = almost worthless
if noisy gpu = almost worthless

AIO in most cases is a fancy element for a fancy setup that cannot replace a custom loop in terms of longevity, versatility and overall performance.
Yes: some AIOS sometimes outperform custom loops, thats where videos and reviews focus (to generate debate).
But pick any wide range of AIOs and have nothing to do against a solid custom loop and sometimes against air cooling.

If I had to choose I would only watercool my GPU.
 
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Heat output is the case.

Why spend hundreds of dollars on a custom loop for a CPU (3800X) that puts out 91 watts on average when loaded. When playing games the load will be less than this on average also.

View attachment 333274
1. I don't play.
2. I don't OC

No, not really. Sub 100w CPU's just don't need high end cooling. Proof you say? Just look at the cooler AMD boxes in with them, and those coolers work well.
I dom't need to look anywhere. My 3800x rig named Naboo is running since 4 years. More exactly: What others say is not in my interest. I'm not that Gen-Z-boy at the village fontain trying to impress others with his car. Btw. I also own a 2700X with an EKL Alpenfoehn Olymp air cooler.
 
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Presumably you are talking about their "water cooling internal sets"? If not, can you link to the relevant page?


This doesn't happen.


I don't want to use air coolers. Not because of any rational factor, it's simply a personal preference.


I'm not disappointed with the ICEGEM 360 in any way shape or form, it's merely that I had the thought chain "hey I wish I could combine the best part of the Arctic AIO with the best part of the Silverstone one, oh wait I could if I were using a custom loop, hmmm let me see what a custom loop that's basically the combination of these two AIOs would cost, HOLY CRAP that's expensive" and then I created a forum thread off that.
The only issue with the Ice Gem is the install process vs other AIOs.

Not even close. The only "AIOs" to come close to killing custom loops are ones that are basically prebuilt custom loops already.

AIOs will always have weaker pumps, crappier materials and lower cooling performance than true custom loops, less longevity too.
That is not true of all AIOs. There are some real workhorses out there. One that was never reviewed (Released during Covid) is the InWin SR36. It was literally $100.

20201201083636_50568.jpg
 
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Not even close. The only "AIOs" to come close to killing custom loops are ones that are basically prebuilt custom loops already.

AIOs will always have weaker pumps, crappier materials and lower cooling performance than true custom loops, less longevity too.
I used to run a nano characterization center and our XRD/XRF instruments had Haskris R100C chiller systems and the pumps were composed of solid brass impellers and they had a definite life span.
When they fail all you would find is brass shavings in the cooler enclosure floor pan. About 5K a piece for a new chiller. Cost of new Xray tube 50K. Plumbed into cold treated water from univ cooling tower.
My NZXT AIO plastic impeller pump lasted longer than the professional grade ones in the Haskris too much stress, brass is soft.
1707172263263.png
 
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Yes but comparing against what ? My loop has 4 radiators, will it be better than a 360mm AIO ? Probably and also much more expensive. Even a loop with a single 360 will be way more expensive, that's why it makes no sense to compare them.

Ah i gotcha. I should have clarified... "I'm more interested in seeing how much of a difference a custom loop makes vs a high performance ~$150 360mm AIO." - this was in reference to thermal performance, not cost.
 
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Ah i gotcha. I should have clarified... "I'm more interested in seeing how much of a difference a custom loop makes vs a high performance ~$150 360mm AIO." - this was in reference to thermal performance, not cost.
2 to 3 degrees max. There are new blocks like the C1 from Alphacool though that are better than any AIO I have seen in performance.
 
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2 to 3 degrees max. There are new blocks like the C1 from Alphacool though that are better than any AIO I have seen in performance.

I thought so! Oh well if i fall short of securing a custom loop for the aesthetics i guess with the temp indifference in mind i won't be missing out on much. Where i'm still excited about investing in CLs is the idea of looping in the GPU. I've always seen amazing CL reports on GPU temps dropping considerably more than CPU temps. Its something i achieved with an AIO mod on a 2080 TI but nowhere near the desired CL eye candy.

Never did like noisy hi-perf GPUs. Got a second build with a 3080 and looking into some affordable alternatives to strip out the stock fans for some high quality x2 120mm fan mod. Or, again if possible an AIO mod with some challenges.
 
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I thought so! Oh well if i fall short of securing a custom loop for the aesthetics i guess with the temp indifference in mind i won't be missing out on much. Where i'm still excited about investing in CLs is the idea of looping in the GPU. I've always seen amazing CL reports on GPU temps dropping considerably more than CPU temps. Its something i achieved with an AIO mod on a 2080 TI but nowhere near the desired CL eye candy.

Never did like noisy hi-perf GPUs. Got a second build with a 3080 and looking into some affordable alternatives to strip out the stock fans for some high quality x2 120mm fan mod. Or, again if possible an AIO mod with some challenges.
The cheapest and for me most effective way to do that is start with the Alphacool Eisbaer and add the GPU block with the pump on it. I would still add a res though it would not need a pump. Some of those are very inexpensive on Amazon.
 

dgianstefani

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2 to 3 degrees max. There are new blocks like the C1 from Alphacool though that are better than any AIO I have seen in performance.
It's more like ~10 degrees or higher delta between the best AIO's and a real loop.



You can compare this by looking at the 200 W charts. The custom block is using a 1.45 V static OC 12900K, so 200 W is conservative, these things run at 241 W stock, but I'm giving the AIOs best case scenario if you have some kind of golden sample CPU that draws less power. The best 360 mm AIO's are hitting 66 C on an Intel at maximum fan speed, 68 C 45 dBA noise normalised. The custom blocks are 57-60 C.

Ah i gotcha. I should have clarified... "I'm more interested in seeing how much of a difference a custom loop makes vs a high performance ~$150 360mm AIO." - this was in reference to thermal performance, not cost.
At least 10 C difference. Plus quieter.

13700K vs 12900K in testing but both are 8+8 Intel chips with ~250 W stock draw.
 
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A long time ago I got my hands on a Rampage 5 motherboard for a good price. The only reason I got it is because I like overclocking old processors. Kinda bad really because I was still using a Rampage 4 and a 1680 v2 when I bought the Rampage 5. Eventually I got a couple J-Batch i7-5960x CPUs for overclocking. I tried an older Thermaltake Floe Ring 360 AIO cooler but at 4.5GHz the Flow Ring could not keep up.

I had some old custom loop parts lying around like an older HW Labs GTX 360 Radiator and a EK Supremacy block. I ended up piecing that together and I was able to push the 5960x a bit higher. Then I added another 360mm Radiator to the loop and I was able to push the frequency past 4.7GHz while still having a bit of thermal headroom left over.

The way I see it is custom loops are useful for processors like the 7950x or 14900k, but they're not really needed for anything less than that. The thing too is you'd need at least a radiator that has more thermal capacity than what the Arctic LFII 420 offers.

About 5 years ago I got my hands on a good i7-3770k that could do 4.7GHz at 1.3v, Prime95 stable. I delidded it and pushed it to 4.8GHz at around 1.375v. I was using a Corsair H105 and at 4.8GHz the 3770k never went over 80c while running Prime95.
 
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For many users, air cooling is sufficient, and if you want better performance and maybe try a little overclocking, AiO is great - it's low maintenance and relatively easy to install, so what's not to like? I see full custom loops as appealing for enthusiasts, meaning those who want to take their overclocking to the next level, and also for those who just enjoy building water cooled rigs for its own merits. I'm in that group - basically a hobby, albeit an expensive one. For the most hard core overclockers, LN2 is the way.

Has AIO killed custom loops? Hmm.. to an extent, possibly. I think AiO has made water cooling FAR more accessible for the average user for sure, and that's great. At the same time, many who may have gone full custom loop have instead gone AiO both for convenience and price. For some, AiO may turn out to be a stepping stone to custom loops that they otherwise may never have done, so.. TL;DR: it's complicated. ;)
 
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It's more like ~10 degrees or higher delta between the best AIO's and a real loop.



You can compare this by looking at the 200 W charts. The custom block is using a 1.45 V static OC 12900K, so 200 W is conservative, these things run at 241 W stock, but I'm giving the AIOs best case scenario if you have some kind of golden sample CPU that draws less power. The best 360 mm AIO's are hitting 66 C on an Intel at maximum fan speed, 68 C 45 dBA noise normalised. The custom blocks are 57-60 C.


At least 10 C difference. Plus quieter.

13700K vs 12900K in testing but both are 8+8 Intel chips with ~250 W stock draw.
You have not tested every AIO on the market. I do not even see the Eisbaer in your testing and that AIO uses nothing but actual Water cooling parts. We are talking about the best AIOs vs a loop. Modern CPUs are very dense and wattage is not the only contributor to heat. If you mean the Asetek based coolers I agree. Even Thermalright have better and cheaper coolers than any of those units.
 

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You have not tested every AIO on the market. I do not even see the Eisbaer in your testing and that AIO uses nothing but actual Water cooling parts. We are talking about the best AIOs vs a loop. Modern CPUs are very dense and wattage is not the only contributor to heat. If you mean the Asetek based coolers I agree. Even Thermalright have better and cheaper coolers than any of those units.
I've literally used the eisbaer before I built my own loop. Nowhere near as good.
 
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I'm with dgianstefani there - custom loops are more effective at cooling than AiO's. One caveat I guess; if you're just running a system at spec so that either form of cooling are able to cool the components without 'stretching their legs' at all (basically overkill for the cooling requirements), then maybe they are close in performance, but when it comes to high load heat on an overclocked system, the custom loop will perform better every time, unless you screw something up badly. Add in the fact you can add multiple radiators, top of the line blocks, high flow pumps.. you're winning.
 
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We are talking about the best AIOs vs a loop.
No, we're talking about reasonable AIOs vs custom loops.
Even Thermalright have better and cheaper coolers than any of those units.
What do you mean by "Even"? Thermalright make quality products, unless that was your intended meaning?

I'm with dgianstefani there - custom loops are more effective at cooling than AiO's.
The problem with that perspective is that it's highly dependent on what parts are used, how they're used and the experience level of the person building them. AIO's are generally well thought out and well engineered. Not all builders of custom loops know what they're doing, even with the best teachers or YouTube video guides.
 
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The problem with that perspective is that it's highly dependent on what parts are used, how they're used and the experience level of the person building them. AIO's are generally well thought out and well engineered. Not all builders of custom loops know what they're doing, even with the best teachers or YouTube video guides.
Poor installation is not a basis for comparison and shouldn't be even considered as a factor - in the same way that you can't realistically compare performance level between two vehicles if the driver of one of the vehicles is drunk and slams their vehicle into a wall.
 
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Poor installation is not a basis for comparison and shouldn't be even considered as a factor
It absolutely is, especially when people like myself have to fix it or tell people why it's not fixable and they need to spend a lot more money buying the right parts to get the work done right.

in the same way that you can't realistically compare performance level between two vehicles if the driver of one of the vehicles is drunk and slams their vehicle into a wall.
That analogy really doesn't work here and I'm not going to explain why..
 
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I think AIOs have made watercooling more accessible, in a sense. Nowadays, users can claim their PC is liquid-cooled just because it has an AIO.

And for those who might consider taking it more seriously, it also helps that there are now at least 2 vendors of expandable liquid-cooling loops; Alphacool, followed by EK, and their costs have come down to a degree. Alphacool (or Aquatuning; forget which) even used to offer a GPU waterblocking process for users willing to send in their GPUs, to which they'd slap on a compatible Alphacool GPU pump-block combo and ship it back with the original air cooler in the box.

As for me personally, got into liquid cooling due to having been on Bulldozer and ATI for a long time, and just continued to OC the FX-9590 until my setup couldn't handle it stably. By the time I switched to Ryzen, I'd had already invested into bigger rads and fans for the FX-9590, so it was a matter of mostly porting stuff over and getting new tubing and coolant. But for most other builds I've done (like my home server), I've stuck to either using AIOs or air cooling. It's not worth investing in custom loops for something not expected to output much heat (or isn't going to be inside a tiny case).
 
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No, we're talking about reasonable AIOs vs custom loops.

What do you mean by "Even"? Thermalright make quality products, unless that was your intended meaning?
I never saw the word reasonable in the title.


I mean Thermalright are the best price/performance AIOs on the market.
 
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So, you have tested DOT 4 or know someone who has? If not, then this particular question has likely not been answered over the last two decades. Seems the "silliness" part comes in when the robots take over and experimentation is deemed unacceptable.

You...are so far off base on this insanity that after reading pages upon pages of this I'm bound to think that you don't fundamentally understand thermodynamics. Let me go over the 10,000' view...so you can understand.

1) Heat is a thing that is actually random kinetic energy in molecules. It transfers in one of three ways. Radiation, conduction, and convection.
2) The fan blowing air over your radiator or fin stack is using both convection and conduction...but primarily is modelled as conduction.
3) Why not model convection and radiation? Well, the simple answer is that they're mathematical rounding errors of influence.

4) Why use brake fluid as coolant? Um...no. If you understand anything you'd immediately look at this and know why.
5) Why do the rest of us have this immediate response? Thermal capacity. The energy it takes to make a substance go up in temperature.
6) Why does this matter? The delta in temperature represents a heat flow. Since input temperature is fixed (CPU), and output temperature is fixed (environment), the larger the heat capacity the more you can reject to the environment.

7) What about cavitation, and superheated gas bubbles? I would posit that you don't understand physics....because that 114 C temperature is then distributed to an IHS, a block, and then is transferred into a moving fluid. To be clear, the fouling layer is more of a practical problem than your magical superheated gas bubbles from boiling water. Note that isn't just me making things up.
8) But, why am I not just making things up? Well, the heat of vaporization for water is magnitudes of order higher than the thermal capacity. To get any significant boiling you'd need a huge concentration of heat or high heat. The problem with both is you'd basically be breaking your CPU down to get that...so it's not possible. So...water is not viscous, resists boiling, and has a large heat capacity...
9) But, why water? Well, let me go back to some basics. If you look at a water molecule it's actually pretty polarized...so the energy required to get it to vibrate more is pretty high....much higher than hydrocarbons. What is brake fluid again? Oh yeah. They do make up for this by being heavier and requiring more energy...but that generally also makes them resist flow and thus be more viscous.

10) Now let me address heat pipes....because people think they're magic. If you create a low pressure environment you get water's boiling point to drop. Same huge thermal capacity, and enormous vaporization energy, but at a temperature below the atmospheric boiling point.
11) If you then create a tube, where one end is at a heat source and the other is surrounded by ambient air it's easy to get the water to phase change back, dumping that huge energy load into the ambient environment.
12) Since it's a tube you're generating a fluid (water vapor, then liquid water) flow loop. You now have a phase change cooler that takes advantage of a low partial pressure water to depress the boiling point, and thus phase transition, into a workable temperature for the CPU to generate, and have cooled with the ambient environment, with minimal losses during relocation of the fluid given minimized surface contact and thus low conduction. You then have good conduction via an ambient fluid (air) flow over a huge surface area (fins).


Now....all of the above is to say this. When I started building computers most coolers were solid. Think the Intel stock coolers, with a metal puck and aluminum fins. Not great, because the heat had to travel along a large distance. This meant CPU hot, fin edges cool, and everything between was a gradient. The automotive industry knew this would not work for them, because they had explosions in one area and thus needed to dump energy and have it moved away faster than it could diffuse. They thus designed liquid cooling...which to this day uses water because of a high heat capacity...though adding stuff to it for not heat transfer reasons.
Back to computers, when the manufacturing tech to make heat pipes went from the niche to the common/affordable it spelled a new age. First we got less mass, then we got hotter CPUs, then we got more heatpipes and mass to compensate for hot CPUs, now we've got internal throttling to manage the insane heat loads chips generate...because even high end coolers can sometimes be stalled out by enormous peak loads. It's been a long way getting here...but as most users find a 7600x (or 5600x) more viable than a 7900x, the need for water cooling is capped as a very expensive toy...out of reach or need for most people.



Seriously though, brake fluid? The stuff is insanely hygroscopic, it's designed to transfer energy from a pump cylinder to a brake, and resist things like cavitation due to boiling because its boiling point is 205+ C when dry. The problem is that hygroscopic part...and this is largely why it's not suitable. For comparison's sake, you know a car gets hot. You know that the fittings for a brake line are meant to be very resistant to infiltration, and thus are very unlikely to allow water vapor in any form to enter. Your average CPU cooling loop is designed to be relatively speaking not that. It's designed to be filled, have some losses, and because of design allow as much fluid to move as freely as possible. You may well see a performance increase initially...as the thermal capacity of glycol and the like is huge...but they are equally viscous and prone to degradation Glycol properties It's trading a fluid that is easy to work with, and cheap, for something that would require constant maintenance and an even more custom loop. I...think you've found the gold plated platinum cored claw hammer solution to a problem that already has a perfectly viable hammer.

I'd also posit that "because nobody tried it" is not a real argument. I once knew a guy who filled his custom loop with cheap vodka, because the ethanol was technically better at conducting....and he had a reason to keep a bottle around "for the computer." Ate every seal in the computer, and he had no issues replacing it because. Just because somebody tried it doesn't mean it's good or bad. I'll stick with keeping brake fluid out of my house....I've seen what it does to paint and plastics....though you're welcome to discover whether that rubber is something that is good for the fluid or not.
 
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It absolutely is, especially when people like myself have to fix it or tell people why it's not fixable and they need to spend a lot more money buying the right parts to get the work done right.


That analogy really doesn't work here and I'm not going to explain why..
LOL ok.. so you believe that all comparative performance testing with any type of hardware should also include that the person installing said hardware might have installed one of the items of hardware incorrectly? Do you not realize this would invalidate pretty much every comparative performance test ever done in the history of PC cooling? Smh.. just.. wow.

If you are saying that custom water loops are more difficult to install than AiO's, and therefore are more prone to user error, I would certainly agree with you, but that has no bearing whatsoever on when one is comparing the actual physical cooling performance of an AiO versus a custom loop. Zero. That is why I made the drunk driver analogy - to make it glaringly obvious why a factor such as that is never part of testing, because it introduces a subjective factor when comparative testing should be as objective as possible. Basic scientific method.

In ANY test for comparing performance levels, which is specifically to establish whether one item performs better than the other under the same conditions (such as an AiO unit vs custom loop), you have to keep as many of the conditions the same as possible. That is why ALL tests of this nature will use the same PC system with the exact same hardware specs, with the same external conditions (ambient temperature), and the same testing methods (the same specific test in 3DMark for example), when comparing performance level. This is done in order to eliminate as much as possible any factors that may throw the validity of the results. Of course there are variables introduced in the brand of AiO and the components used in a custom loop, that is why there are many tests comparing different brands - they aren't all at the same performance level. Your claim that such tests should always factor in the possibility of user installation error in comparing cooling performance is, quite frankly, ridiculous - unless maybe you have both the AiO and the custom loop both installed incorrectly, lol.

This is very clear basic logic, and really just common sense, so I'm surprised you decided to make an arguement out of something so indefensable. Bizarre.
 
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