Have AIOs killed custom loops?

[lexluthermiester]

ok so

air coolers are actually water coolers because they have water vapor in the heat pipes

water coolers are actually air coolers because you have fans on the radiator

You have summed it all up very neatly!

aios are the ones using propylene glycol and aluminum radiators so worst of both worlds

Except that.

 

[dgianstefani]

Aluminum radiators in nearly every vehicle on the road...don't see the problem. What exactly is the mixture used in these AIO's?

Do those vehicles use copper fittings in the same loop? I doubt it. Maybe in Chinese vehicles.

 

[67Elco]

Do those vehicles use copper fittings in the same loop? I doubt it. Maybe in Chinese vehicles.

See the edit to that post for a solution. Btw, copper/brass radiators used to be the norm in vehicles decades ago and many of the custom water cooling radiators are as well. That being said I realize most of these coolers use aluminum radiators. Are the cpu bases/pumps that use a copper base insulated from direct contact with the fluid somehow?

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Really, put a cork in your pie hole. I've been fluid cooling PC's since 1998. I know my craft. If you want to continue to be unpleasant, fine by me. Do it elsewhere or I'm going to start returning the flavor of your conjecture in spades.


True. Soft tubing is very easy.


Which brand do you prefer? A lot of people swear by EK or Koolance, but I find Alphacool make the better(easier to use) fittings. That's my personal opinion though. An argument can be made about Visiontek's Cryovenom line.


Ignorance and maybe some arrogance. It's as simple as that.


Exactly. Heatpipes are just sealed-metal-loop water coolers.


They don't need to. It's common knowledge. "Air" coolers that have heat-pipes(and most do these days) are just sealed-loop water coolers. Go look it up. It'll be a very fascinating read.

The Basics of Heat Pipes – Their History, Principle, and Varieties explained | Colomn | Solutions/Products/Services | DNP Dai Nippon Printing

Or if you prefer the video format;

ALL heatpipes use water. Every single one of them. It's exactly how they function.

Thank you for saving me some research.

In the link you provided, they list several fluids. Not just water.

 

[lexluthermiester]

In the link you provided, they list several fluids. Not just water.

Oh, so we're going to pick nits now? Fine by me. Let's review.

Variations of Working Fluid​

・Water (Pure water)
Most commonly used working fluid in heat pipes used for electronic devices
Operational temperature range: Room temperature up to approximately 200℃ (Cannot be used in environments where temperatures reach 0℃ or lower)

Hmm..

・Ethanol
Can be used in temperatures that would freeze water
Operational temperature range: Approximately -10℃ up to over 100℃

News flash, contains H2O in the molecule. When burned, H2O is one of the main exhaust components.

Ethanol

Ethanol | CH3CH2OH or C2H6O | CID 702 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.

pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Never used in heatpipe PC cooler applications though.

・Naphthalene
Can be used (only) at high temperatures where water cannot be used
Operational temperature range: Approximately 200℃ to 400℃

Ok, fair enough, no water contained in the molecule.

Naphthalene

Naphthalene | C10H8 | CID 931 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.

pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

However, due to it's chemical properties and characteristics, it is NEVER used in PC cooling, heatpipe or otherwise.

So, what have we learned? Perhaps that context is important? Maybe?

 

[kapone32]

ok so

air coolers are actually water coolers because they have water vapor in the heat pipes

water coolers are actually air coolers because you have fans on the radiator

aios are the ones using propylene glycol and aluminum radiators so worst of both worlds

That is why I only buy AIOs that have both copper on the rad and block. Ek certainly learned from their hubris and so did MSI with their first generation AIOs.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Oh, so we're going to pick nits now? Fine by me. Let's review.


Hmm..


News flash, contains H2O in the molecule. When burned, H2O is one of the main exhaust components.

Ethanol

Ethanol | CH3CH2OH or C2H6O | CID 702 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.

pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Never used in heatpipe PC cooler applications though.


Ok, fair enough, no water contained in the molecule.

Naphthalene

Naphthalene | C10H8 | CID 931 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.

pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

However, due to it's chemical properties and characteristics, it is NEVER used in PC cooling, heatpipe or otherwise.

So, what have we learned? Perhaps that context is important? Maybe?

I found a video. From a cooler manufacturer.

They do fill with distilled water!!

Then it's removed when they vacuum the tubes. Twice they say!

What do you do to remove moisture from an enclosed system? Put it under a vacuum

This means there is NO water in the pipes.

 

[lexluthermiester]

That is why I only buy AIOs that have both copper on the rad and block. Ek certainly learned from their hubris and so did MSI with their first generation AIOs.

If memory serves, all of that was around a decade ago. Maybe more..

I found a video. From a cooler manufacturer.

They do fill with distilled water!!

Then it's removed when they vacuum the tubes. Twice they say!

What do you do to remove moisture from an enclosed system? Put it under a vacuum

This means there is NO water in the pipes.

Again CONTEXT is important. You need to watch that video again and pay better attention to the description of the process. They extract the AIR, not the water... The water is left behind.

 

[67Elco]

If I can figure the actual viscosity it may be DOT 4 Brake fluid may be a winner here. Never heard of any brake fluid harming rubber.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

If memory serves, all of that was around a decade ago. Maybe more..


Again CONTEXT is important. You need to watch that video again and pay better attention to the description of the process. They extract the AIR, not the water... The water is left behind.

You can't leave the water behind.

Look, it's like building an SS or cascade unit. You vacuum to remove moisture which is in air.

These types of tubes actually contain no water.

Do tell how they leave the water in while running a vacuum. It's impossible.

Oh, so we're going to pick nits now? Fine by me. Let's review.


Hmm..


News flash, contains H2O in the molecule. When burned, H2O is one of the main exhaust components.

Ethanol

Ethanol | CH3CH2OH or C2H6O | CID 702 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.

pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Never used in heatpipe PC cooler applications though.


Ok, fair enough, no water contained in the molecule.

Naphthalene

Naphthalene | C10H8 | CID 931 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.

pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

However, due to it's chemical properties and characteristics, it is NEVER used in PC cooling, heatpipe or otherwise.

So, what have we learned? Perhaps that context is important? Maybe?

Context?

Also, with an addition to, using a liquid in a heat pipe also requires use of orientation.

That means heat pipes with a liquid work best from ground earth up. (vertically)

Since heatpipes in cpu coolers have all sorts of bends, it is not likely to contain any liquids at all.

Especially since you're probably looking up if a vacuum removes moisture from enclosures, you bet your butt it does. Context or not.

additional comment:

Tell you what.

The video is wrong. Or I'm wrong.

The vacuum process would be first, then inject a liquid. You will loose some vacuum in the process. Raising the boiling point. Which depending on volume, this could matter. The liquid would turn vapor at a higher temperature.

Since the video exclaims, but never demonstrates installing any type of liquid, then saying vacuumed AFTER putting in the water, twice in fact< would mean they extracted the water and it was a waste of time to put water in the pipe in the first place.

So that's Devil's advocate there.

So far, from what I can tell, we have no actual PROOF (YET) of any liquid in a heat pipe used in cpu coolers unless we can find some accurate evidence of this from actual manufacturing process. Which is what I'm looking for.

But lastly, I will digress here. This is not on topic for CPU cooling with AIO's that did not kill custom water loops.

 

[Outback Bronze]

Well, I think custom loops is what made AIOs isn't it? Loops came well before AIOs.

Have they killed them? I personally dont think so. AIO are just too easy to install, which means they are for the majority of system builders.

For me I'll never have an AIO. Started custom looping about 20 years ago and will continue to do so. Love it!

Yes, custom loops cost more and are much more hard work but your pumps/res and rads you buy are forever in a sense. You will only need to upgrade blocks or best case scenario a new cpu bracket for your block. Maybe the odd soft tube here or there when you buy a new case.

Custom loops also look way cooler, much more fun/involving and do have better thermals.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Well, I think custom loops is what made AIOs isn't it? Loops came well before AIOs.

Have they killed them? I personally dont think so. AIO are just too easy to install, which means they are for the majority of system builders.

For me I'll never have an AIO. Started custom looping about 20 years ago and will continue to do so. Love it!

Yes, custom loops cost more and are much more hard work but your pumps/res and rads you buy are forever in a sense. You will only need to upgrade blocks or best case scenario a new cpu bracket for your block. Maybe the odd soft tube here or there when you buy a new case.

Custom loops also look way cooler, much more fun/involving and do have better thermals.

Couldn't be more true.

I mean essentially, close thread with this statement.

 

[nguyen]

Well I had a custom watercooled with hard tubing rig for 5 years and I must say I'm done with custom watercooling .

The custom watercooling rig is so heavy that any maintenance work is just back-breaking (taking the rig outside for dusting, replacing water, upgrading parts, etc...). The rig looks nice but there is no one to impress , the performance/noise improvements with custom watercooling is just not worth it. WB for CPU/GPUs nowadays cost just as much as a good AIO.

Anyways here is my old rig, now decommissioned.

 

[InVasMani]

AIO's simplified water cooling and are more affordable. I think they'll be designed with improvements for more reliability in mind as well over time as well. I wouldn't go back to a tower cooler personally unless they made some more serious innovations that brought them more in line with a AIO 240 push/pull setup in terms of noise and cooling. There needs to be more serious innovation break thru designs for them to more credibly compete.

A tower cooler can compete well enough with 120/140 AIO, but not as convincingly with a 240 or larger AIO at least in push/pull and not doing something foolish like using a cases mesh air filter in front of the radiator's case fan air intake impeding airflow significantly to the radiator. That's just not a smart idea for cooling if it can be removed and avoided plus the radiator will block a lot of potential dust anyway. A good modern case design is great with a AIO.

 

[BoggledBeagle]

I believe ammonia or alcohol is used with cpu coolers because of boiling points.

Are you aware of the fact that boiling temperature depends on the pressure?

In the pressure cooker is elevated pressure and the water remains liquid up to 130°C, thus speeding up cooking.

If you decrease the pressure, you lower the boiling temperature.

They are evacuating the heatpipes to lower the pressure to reach desired boiling temperature.

(Under a normal pressure, water boils at 100°C, I am just adding this information in case somebody did not know this.)

Anyways here is my old rig, now decommissioned.
View attachment 331785

I see you had a blue theme with poop coloured fans...

 

[nguyen]

I see you had a blue theme with poop coloured fans...

Hehe yeah the Noctua fans deserve that name, I'm more of an Phanteks T30 fan now

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Are you aware of the fact that boiling temperature depends on the pressure?

In the pressure cooker is elevated pressure and the water remains liquid up to 130°C, thus speeding up cooking.

If you decrease the pressure, you lower the boiling temperature.

They are evacuating the heatpipes to lower the pressure to reach desired boiling temperature.

(Under a normal pressure, water boils at 100°C, I am just adding this information in case somebody did not know this.)


I see you had a blue theme with poop coloured fans...

Yes, I understand how lowering atmospheric pressure lowers boiling point.

GAH!

I'm not saying you guys are wrong. I'm saying in 20 years, I've never seen a drop of liquid come from a cpu cooler heat pipe. And several other reasons why they aren't using water.

We are way off topic though. So please find my PM box, and I'll try to further elaborate my point.

 

[Vya Domus]

What do you mean you've never seen it ? It's an extremely small amount, probably not even a gram and the inside of a heatsink is very porous, of course you'd never see it.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

What do you mean you've never seen it ? It's an extremely small amount, probably not even a gram and the inside of a heatsink is very porous, of course you'd never see it.

A gram of water?? I can see a gram of herbs here maybe....

According to the video, which was posted above here , gave the exact measurable amount of water used. He either said 2mm of water, or 2ml of water.... Then said vacuum the pipe twice to be sure no air.

If you have removed all the air, you've also removed all the what? Oh, the water. And that video is provided by a cpu cooler manufacturer and it is either bullshit or not accurate.

I can see fog. Steam from water near boiling point at 14.2 psi atmospheric pressure. Water isn't hard to spot even in some of its smallest forms.

I'm certain to see water in some form come from a pipe. Cut one end and heat the other I suppose.

The idea is the vapor is a liquid at one end, turns to vapor travels to the cool end, turns back into a liquid and travels back the the hot end.

With all that copper dust surface area, you would want a visible amount of liquid to take advantage of that surface area. It would be easily visible if to cover lots of surface area.

Then if you have bends that go horizontal, to vertical back to horizontal, the water would reach the cold end and never travel back because of gravitational physics of liquid pooling on the horizontal plane. Does this mean with the bends you must oscillate the cooler so the water can travel back down to the hot spot to become vapor again?

Nah, no water. Cpu air coolers heat pipes don't use water. And probably not ammonia, which for some reason I was thinking without a vacuum it would suffice. But I realize that I haven't cut every single fucking cooler heat pipe open that was ever used on a cpu, but so far, never found evidence of water.

 

[Redwoodz]

Yes, I understand how lowering atmospheric pressure lowers boiling point.

GAH!

I'm not saying you guys are wrong. I'm saying in 20 years, I've never seen a drop of liquid come from a cpu cooler heat pipe. And several other reasons why they aren't using water.

We are way off topic though. So please find my PM box, and I'll try to further elaborate my point.

I have a NZXT Havik 140 air cooler that sprang a leak in one of the heat-pipes. It leaked a small amount of fluid that evaporated within minutes. Left a white residue behind. Still worked after that, just not as well.

 

[Vya Domus]

Never came across a heat pipe denier, this is new.

If you have removed all the air, you've also removed all the what? Oh, the water.

No, that's not how that works, you can have a vacuum chamber with liquid inside. You're probably imagining that if you suck the air out it will suck the water out as well but the physics don't work out that way. Zero pressure (or close to) is insufficient to move a fluid, you need more than that, obviously. The water will turn into a gas as you are lowering the pressure, obviously they stop before that happens, it would defeat the purpose.

But according to your logic there shouldn't be anything in the heat pipe, because whatever you put in there will be removed when it's vacuumed right ? So what's in there ? Nothing ? Why do they call a heat pipe then, it would just be an empty copper tube.

How do you think this works ?

I'm certain to see water in some form come from a pipe. Cut one end and heat the other I suppose.

The idea is the vapor is a liquid at one end, turns to vapor travels to the cool end, turns back into a liquid and travels back the the hot end.

I already explained to you the inside of a heat pipe is porous, it's like putting a drop of water on a sponge, you would never be able to tell that there is some water in there unless you squeeze it. You can't really squeeze copper can you ? If you open a heat pipe in an enclosed chamber and increase the temperature eventually the little water that is in there will condense on it's walls.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

I have a NZXT Havik 140 air cooler that sprang a leak in one of the heat-pipes. It leaked a small amount of fluid that evaporated within minutes. Left a white residue behind. Still worked after that, just not as well.

Eew a white residue? Sounds sodium based.

 

[BoggledBeagle]

Never came across a heat pipe denier, this is new. ... according to your logic ... I already explained to you ...

I came to a conclusion that there is a little sense in trying to discuss or explain anything to ShripmBrime, I will not react to him anymore.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Never came across a heat pipe denier, this is new.


No, that's not how that works, you can have a vacuum chamber with liquid inside. You're probably imagining that if you suck the air out it will suck the water out as well but the physics don't work out that way. Zero pressure (or close to) is insufficient to move a fluid, you need more than that, obviously. The water will turn into a gas as you are lowering the pressure, obviously they stop before that happens, it would defeat the purpose.

But according to your logic there shouldn't be anything in the heat pipe, because whatever you put in there will be removed when it's vacuumed right ? So what's in there ? Nothing ? Why do they call a heat pipe then, it would just be an empty copper tube.

How do you think this works ?



I already explained to you the inside of a heat pipe is porous, it's like putting a drop of water on a sponge, you would never be able to tell that there is some water in there unless you squeeze it. You can't really squeeze coper can you ? If you open a heat pipe in an enclosed chamber and increase the temperature eventually the little water that is in there will condense on it's walls.

Water is made from air. If it's in the enclosure before a vacuum the water vacates.

I've run a vacuum on many systems. It directly removes water. Even pulls it out of dissicant.

 

[Vya Domus]

You can only move water out of a chamber if it's not actually air tight or if the pressure is so low it turns into a gas.

Use your head, imagine a pipe that is closed at one end and at the other you start to create a vacuum, if the liquid moved you'd also create a vacuum in it's place that would pull the liquid with an equal force, there would be no movement.