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Safe & Low Cost Insurance For Your Computer & Hardwares

Discussion in 'System Builder's Advice' started by =TWP=WOLF, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. Kreij

    Kreij Senior Monkey Moderator Staff Member

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    LOL ... Wolf, you started what we call "valid, interesting discussion".
    Grab some popcorn and sit back and enjoy. These discussion usually end up in a dissemination of a tremendous amout of valuable information on a highly technical level.

    @westom : Again I am not questioning the validity of the information that posted, but many people have little or no control over the surge protection beyond the wall of their homes/apartments.

    Give us you thought on how to best protect ourselves from high amperage strike around our homes.
     
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  2. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

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    First off most people buy an APC for the battery backup. Not the surge protector aspect and most will tell you its not designed for direct lightining hits. VERY few things are. As a matter of fact I do not care how grounded your house is a direct hit to will circumvent any protection you have. That includes lighting rods.

    I live in south Florida and some say its the lighting capital of the US and I have personally seen lighting strikes that bypass a houses L-Rod and hit their dinning room table. Telco is not a residential house and its built differently so to compare the two is moronic. I'm sorry but you are wrong. APC are not a scam and they are a great battery backup.
     
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  3. westom

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    The most naïve often recommend a UPS as superior to power strip protectors. Hearsays says so even when manufacturer numbers define a UPS as near zero surge protection. Most people ignore facts and numbers. Too many people are ‘experts’ only using observation and sales brochures.

    Moronic is ‘know’ only from observation.. Protection for every building from homes to Air Force bases is similar. Either the earthing is sufficient. Or lightning will go hunting inside a building for bombs, computers, or dining room tables. Routine is to have direct lightning strikes with zero damage - in FL. But only when a human first learns 100 years of well proven facts.

    For example, one FL home was struck repeatedly on an outside wall. So they installed lightning rods. Lightning struck the same bathroom wall again. That wall contained plumbing connected to deeper limestone. Lightning is not capricious as cited by many educated by observation. Lightning obtains a best connection to deeper and more conductive earth. Higher lightning rods were connected to eight foot ground rods only in sand - inferior earthing.

    BTW, another myth is that lightning strikes the highest objects. Reality. Lightning strikes the best connection to earth. Surges seek earth ground.

    A solution was obvious to those whose knowledge was not based only in observation. Lightning rods were earthed with longer earthing electrodes into limestone. Lightning damage stopped when lightning took an electrically shorter path to earth via better grounded rods.

    Damage is always about where that energy dissipates. Damage to telco COs averted because telcos use better earthing. Because every wire in every cable connects short to single point earth ground. And protectors are up to 50 meters distant from electronics. Separation is also important. FL homes that do same suffer surges – even direct lightning strikes - without anyone knowing a surge even existed. Protection is routine when one uses more than observation to ‘know’.

    The educated (people who learned concepts taught in junior high science) know that observation only teaches something when underlying science and principles are understood. Classic junk science reasoning - speculation only from hearsay and observation - is not knowledge. Those principles were known even 100 years ago.

    Ham radio operators are homeowners at greatest risk. Those who learned concepts BEFORE knowing anything describe well proven science:
    http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html
    > Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning 30 years, that you can design a system that
    > will handle *direct lightning strikes* on a routine basis. It takes some planning and careful layout, but
    > it's not hard, nor is it overly expensive. At WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning strikes nearly every
    > time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime from such strikes is almost non-existant. The last time we went
    > down from a strike, it was due to a strike on the power company's lines knocking *them* out, ...
    > Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously to educate amateurs that you *can* avoid damage
    > from direct strikes. The belief that there's no protection from direct strike damage is *myth*. ...
    > The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly simple, and surprisingly less than obvious. Of
    > course you *must* have a single point ground system that eliminates all ground loops. And you must present
    > a low *impedance* path for the energy to go. That's most generally a low *inductance* path rather than just a
    > low ohm DC path.

    In FL, informed builders and homeowner install Ufer grounds. Originally developed so that direct lightning strikes to munitions dumps cause no damage. Routine in FL homes to have direct lightning strikes without damage. But many FL homeowners are moronic -remain in denial. A 'woe is me' mentality based only in observation that 'knows' damage is acceptable. Nonsense. Only a quitter knows everything from observation and by not learning well understood principles. Routine is to have direct lightning strikes - and even the protector is unharmed. But that means spending less money on protectors designed for protection system. That means ignoring myths that recommend high profit UPSes and power strip protectors for protection.

    Neither lightning rods nor protectors are protection. These are only connecting devices. If not connect to protection, then these are ineffective. Lightning rods and protectors must connect as short as possible to the only thing that provides protection - earth ground. Every wire inside every incoming cable must connect to earth before entering the building.

    Most lightning strikes are to household appliances. A lightning strike to AC wires down the street is a direct lightning strike to every appliance. Surge damage is routinely averted by earthing a 'whole house' protector. A device that costs about $1 per protected appliance. A device that is only as effective as its earth ground.

    Protection is always about where energy dissipates. That APC protector recommeded by the OP is a scam - a $3 power strip with ten cent protector parts selling for obscene profits. Either energy is connected and absorbed harmlessly in earth. Or a surge will go hunting for appliances and dining room tables destructively. Protection always means no energy inside the building – homes, telephone Cos, munitions dumps, or Air Force facilities. A protector or lightning rod is only as effective as its earth ground - which that APC does not have and will not discuss. Even Franklin demonstrated the concept in 1752. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  4. CDdude55

    CDdude55 Crazy 4 TPU!!!

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    LOL at this thread turing into an Electronics book.:laugh:

    He just offered a simple suggestion, if you don't agree, say it (in a couple of sentances) and move on.

    Those posts are very informitive, but it's starting to stray a bit to far from the point of the original topic.
     
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  5. westom

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    Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sold in grocery stores for $7. Same thing is that APC SurgeArrest Performance at $40. And recommended? Monster Cable sells same for under $100 - because profits are so obscene and the myth so easily promoted.

    A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That APC product does not even claim protection in numeric specs. Provided was knowledge so that any layman can see through the scam. Also listed is what every homeowner should have if transistors exist anywhere in the house.

    OP's APC protector is obviously a profit center; not protection. But the scam is so easily promoted. Posted is what all homeowner should have - and don't.
     
  6. MohawkAngel

    MohawkAngel New Member

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    They are selling those APC bar for 19.99$ here so gonna buiy one I think :)
     
  7. CDdude55

    CDdude55 Crazy 4 TPU!!!

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    Thanks.:toast:

    Remember to try and keep it short in the future.
     
  8. westom

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    You would buy a protector that does not claim any protection, that costs 20 times more than the well proven solution, and that can sometimes makes damage to nearby appliances easier? Because a $7 (retail) device is overpriced at $20; not $40? Why?
     
  9. Bad news for me.. For the insurance to be "valid" here in sweden, the system needs to be connected in this order:
    Grounded electrical outlet -->APC/UPS -->Computer.

    For me, the only place where there is a grounded electrical outlet is in kitchen and bathroom.
    The apartment(s) were built around the end of the 60's so all the new built places have grounded wall outlets in every room.
     
  10. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

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    Ufer system? Really man? How many residential houses have you seen built with a Ufer system. Its great for telecommunication towers, munition dumps and hospitals but I have never seen a house built with one. Most surge is differed via ground rod next to the "box" in residential building. Now there is rebar "steel" in the walls and foundation but that does not constitute a Ufer system due to the roof being exposed (no rebar or concrete).

    Anyway none of this matters. NONE OF IT. As the APC was NEVER intended to stop lightning. Its to help against man made surges and brown/black outs.

    Oh and for anyone wondering what westom and I are talking about read this simple explanation.

    http://www.scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm

    Also westom I know things from experience not from observation only. I worked for an electrical contractor for over 10 years.

    Are you saying none of the receptacles in your house are grounded? REALLY? WTF man get out!
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2010
  11. Arctucas

    Arctucas

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    While I must agree that grounding the electrical service (per N.E.C. Article 250) is the best hope of routing transient voltages to earth and away from electrical and electronic equipment, I would like to relay and incident that happened to me several years ago; during a thunderstorm, lightning struck close to my home (but far enough away that the thunderclap was slightly delayed), and I heard the sound of electrical arcing (as an electrician, I know what it sounds like, believe me) coming from my basement. When I went to investigate, I noticed a small burn (as one would expect from an electrical arc) on the galvanized steel cold water line, and another on the cast iron soil stack approximately five feet away.

    I came to the conclusion that the lightning had followed the cold water line from outside the house until it reached the point closest to the soil stack, arced across, and exited the house at that point.

    This is interesting from the aspect that per N.E.C. 250, the electrical service (circuit breaker panel) is to be bonded to the metal cold water line at a point no farther than five feet from the point where the cold water line enters the structure. Also, a supplemental grounding electrode (driven ground rod) is connected to the service. I suppose I am fortunate that the lightning did not follow any of the house wiring, as I experienced no equipment damage.
     
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  12. =TWP=WOLF

    =TWP=WOLF

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    Hi Mate.

    If you are in to secure your electrical equipment, consult an professional electrician and see if there is a possibility draw in ground cables so you can change to grounded outlet sockets without tear apart your apartment totally.

    Remember, in Sweden you can't only ground 1 socket if there are severals in one room. You have to ground ALL SOCKETS in the room.

    Good luck mate.

    WOLF.
     
  13. Radical_Edward

    Radical_Edward

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    This thread makes me glad that I live in a part of Oregon that only gets thunderstorms maybe 3-5 times a year at most...

    I've always had all my stuff on surge protectors. My father use to be a DJ for a while and pretty much told me that if I didn't do such it wasn't very bright.
     
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  14. westom

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    Being an electrical contractor means one is told by code what to do. Often not know why. Experience means learning rules written for human safety. And not learn why. Electrical contractors only need to learn 'resistance'. Critical to surge protection and not taught by experience is 'impedance'.

    A ground wire with sharp bends (excessive impedance) is sufficient for human safety. That same sharp wire bend means a protector is not earthed (does nothing) for transistor safety. Experience teaches nothing about sharp wire bends found inside every electrical receptacle. 'Impedance' is what electrical contractors need not learn and what scams (ie a UPS for surge protection) will never discuss. 'Impedance' is critical to surge protection - why effective protectors are 'whole house' type.

    Stated was 'less than 10 feet'. Impedance is why effective protectors are connected that short to earth ground. And why protectors adjacent to appliances contribute to appliance damage. Impedance is why reliable facilities (ie your telco) put all protectors at earth ground. And want protectors up to 50 meters distant from electronics. Separation between all appliances and a protector means superior protection. Observation from experience would never teach any of this.

    Impedance is why grounding TechnicalFreak's receptacles do nothing for transistor safety. Impedance is why APC's warranty is not honored. And why APC does not discuss protection from TheMailMan78's trivial (non-destructive) surges - that does not even damage dimmer switches, GFCIs, or smoke detectors.

    Destructive surges occur typically once every seven years. Less often in Oregon. Protection already inside every appliance means TheMailMan78's surges are only noise - do no damage. Plug-in protectors or that UPS are protection from surges that damage nothing. IOW a scam. Protection from so called man-made surges is already inside every appliance.

    Even in Sweden, grounded outlets do nothing for surge protection. Informed consumers spend tens or 100 times less money for only one 'whole house' protector from responsible companies such as ABB or Keison. The only effective solution to destructive surges. And makes trivial surges irrelevant. It costs tens or 100 times less money to protect from all types of surges.

    Only relevant ground is a low impedance connection ('less than 3 meters') from every incoming utility wire short to single point earth ground. Many homes (commonly across FL and in some parts of CA) already have Ufer grounds. Routinely installed by fewer builders who understand surge protection. Informed homeowners can upgrade earthing. Redirect cash from a scam APC or Monster power strip into effective solutions.

    Most every reader can have effective protection. Electric companies rent a 'whole house' protector installed behind the meter. Even plug-in protectors (and the UPS) need protection. Most every fire department has seen what plug-in protectors can do IF you do not earth a 'whole house' protector:
    http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
    http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
    http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
    http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol entitled "Surge Protector Fires"
    http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
    http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
    http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

    Above is only secondary protection. Every protection layer is defined only by earth ground - not by a protector. An informed homeowner (especially First Energy customers) should inspect their primary surge protection. What to inspect:
    http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2010
  15. Hockster

    Hockster

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    They don't protect against lightning, but APC's warranty is as good as it gets, And they honor it. About five years ago my house was struck, my PC was connected to an APC surge protector, it was totally fried. Mobo, CPU, RAID card, PSU, ram and sound card were all shot. HDD's and opticals survived. APC sent me prepaid labels and had me send in all the gear. They sent me a cheque for replacement costs. Only thing not covered by APC in my house is my home theater gear. All I use for it is Panamax.
     
  16. westom

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    Which is contrary to what some APC warranties said. Existence of the Panamax voids the APC warranty - according to the fine print in some APC warranties.

    You should be teaching us how to beat the system. Others have only seen what Steve Uhrig on 17 Jun 2003 posted in "UPS for computer and TV":
    > I lost the modem board in an early generation commercial high volume fax which was 'protected' by an APC UPS.
    > I read the terms of their warranty, which I had saved together with the purchase receipt, and contacted them
    > to submit a warranty claim. I was nice and polite and had everything documented including photos of their product
    > installed next to the fax. They laughed in my face. Almost could not have been more insulting.
    > I wrote to the executive management of the company, copied customer service, sent both return receipt to prove they
    > received them, and never got the courtesy of a reply.

    HolyCow! posted in CNET on 13 Mar 2010 in "Can a cheap surge protector cut down the life of my new HDTV":
    > I've been searching for effective surge protection. Had my computer system "protected" by an APC SurgeArrest,
    > and it failed (my computer was fried). APC refused to repair or replace, which means that APC lies when they
    > print on their packaging that they will repair or replace your equipment which their surge-stopping equipment
    > fails to protect. NEVER will buy APC again.

    Informed consumers buy insurance from licensed brokers required to meet state and Federal laws. Informed consumers buy products for what the product is supposes to do - not for some mythical warranty. So many suffered damage while using APC products. That damage conforms to what APC claims in numeric specs (which is not what is claimed in sales brochures). What Luke Wilbur also suffered on 9 Jun 2009 in:
    http://www.dcmessageboards.com/APC-Battery-Backup-prot-t16760.html&p=33252
    >An electrical surge went through my APC Battery surge protector and fried my computer.
    > Model No. BR800BLK ...
    > Computer - Fried Sony VIAO
    > Printer - Fried Lexmark X4270
    > Hughes Satellite Modem - Fried Model No - HN7000S

    Well, yes. You are right. The APC does not claim to protect from lightning. And does not claim to protect from any potentially destructive surges. With so few joules, it only claims to protect from surges that cannot overwhelm protection already inside every appliance. Reality is a bitch when you learn what is always - always - required for effective protection. What APC does not connect to and will not discuss. Earth ground.

    Protection is always about where energy dissipates - which APC will not discuss. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which APC will not discuss and does not connect to.

    But if it hypes a mythical warranty in sales brochures, then some consumers will ignore numeric specifications - that make no effective protection claims.

    Why is Monster Cable selling similar products with same specifications for even higher prices? Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling equivalent products for even greater profits.

    We install effective protectors to protect from all types of surges - including lightning. An effective protetor remains functional even after that direct lightning strike. So many responsible manufacturers who provide effective protection were listed. Effective protection costs tens or 100 times less money than a silly APC protector - that does not even claim to protect from any typically destructive surges in its numeric specs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2010
  17. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

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    Why do you keep posting gibberish? I mean really? He had a lighting hit that fired his equipment and APC hooked him up. End of story. Also a Ufer system is not 100 times less money then an APC which by the way the APC never claimed to stop lighting. As a matter of fact you have posted not one solution. I mean WTF are you trying to sell something?

    Oh and the Electrical Contractor I worked with was also a weapons avionics expert during his service.
     
  18. westom

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    Only a fool buys a protector that does not protect from lightning and the other typically destructive surges. And only an angry man posts repeated nonsense when he only need post APC numeric specs. TheMailMan78 cannot post specification because APC does not claim protection from destructive surges. It is a profit center. It protects only from surges that cause no damage. Companies profiting from the scam sell the $7 grocery store protector for $25 and $150. Put myths and lies in sales brochures. And get the most naive among us to believe it.

    The informed consumer spends tens or 100 times less money, upgrades his earthing, and has protection even from direct lightning strikes. The informed consumer also knows products hyped with the larger warranties are traditionally the worst products. Again, why is GM's warranty so much better than Honda's and Toyota's? Why did Ford introduce a 5 years 50,000 mile warranty when Fords were a most highly failing product?


    A protector that does not protect from lightning protects from surges that do not cause damage. And the NIST (US government research agency) says why:
    > The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

    APC has no dedicated wire for the always required short connection to earth. Why is TheMailMan78 posting anger? He was challenged to post APC numeric specs that claim protection. He cannot. Either he admits he was scammed. Or he attacks with anger - and no spec numbers.

    The informed consume spends tens or 100 times less money for one protector to protect everything from destructive surges. That includes air conditioner, furnace, dishwasher, stove, bathroom GFCIs (so essential to human safety), clock radios, burglar alarm, and dimmer switches. What most needs protection during a surge? Smoke detectors. What protects them? Nothing from APC.

    The informed do not have damage. Need not get ten cents on the dollar reimbursement from a rumored warranty. Better purchases insurance from companies required to meet state and Federal regulations. Learned from companies such as GM that a best warranty means a worst product.

    Meanwhile, Norma demonstrates that plug-in protectors even have a history of creating house fires - while protecting only from surges that cause no damage. Norma on 27 Dec 2008 in "The Power Outage" describes the danger:
    > Today, the cable company came to replace a wire. Well the cable man pulled a wire and somehow
    > yanked loose their "ground" wire. The granddaughter on the computer yelled and ran because
    > sparks and smoke were coming from the power surge strip.

    Norma's protector is the same circuit that TheMailMan78 recommends for tens or 100 times more money. He is angry because his recommendations are exposed again and again as an example of a deceived consumer.

    Where is protection in that APC? TheMailMan78 was asked to post numbers from APC. He cannot. APC does not even claim protection in their numeric specs. They claim mythical protection in sales brochures. And a warranty chock full of exemptions so that it need not be honored. Somehow a sales brochure is sufficient to know protection exists? APC cannot and does not claim protection in numeric specifications because effective protection is not being sold. Successfully sold to TheMailMan78 are myths. That reality means he replies angry - and without facts.

    Provides were numerous responsible companies that sell ‘whole house’ protectors. The informed consumer spends tens or 100 times less money so that even direct lightning strikes do not cause damage. Do what was well understood and done (even patented) over 100 years ago.
     
  19. westom

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    And your father was Albert Einstein. Therefore you are an expert on quantum physics. When do you post APC's numeric specs that claim what you somehow 'know'? You cannot. Your knowledge comes from "I know someone; therefore are an expert".

    The informed consumer earths one 'whole house' protector from responsible companies such as General Electric, ABB, Polyphaser, ABB, Leviton, Intermatic, or Siemens. The Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. The informed consumer ignores his myths. And does what has been done for over 100 years to even have direct lightning strikes without damage.
     
  20. Radical_Edward

    Radical_Edward

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    Westom, I think everyone get's the point, you can stop trolling now. The personal attacks are getting a bit old.
     
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  21. westom

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    An honest TheMailMan78 who was not insulting me in every post would have posted manufacturer spec numbers. And other facts based in honesty and numbers. Where are the APC spec numbers that claim any protection? Either he posts those numbers. Or be honest - not intentionally insulting - and admit he does not understand the topic and underlying principles.

    No insult is to identify a classic propaganda technique - "I know someone; therefore I am an expert". One who posts that reasoning is intentionally insulting everyone.

    Provided with facts and numbers is the well proven solution from even 100 years ago. One properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Posted without insulting any one. Reality - a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. In a world where consumers are educated by facts from 100 years ago (and not from retail propaganda), everyone would have know that years ago. And then numerous posters would be calling TheMailMan78 a troll. When does posting honesty and facts become trolling?

    I have simply provided a well proven reality that an overwhelming majority are probably only hearing for the first time. TheMailMan78 is kindly demonstrating why popular APC urban myths exists.
     
  22. CDdude55

    CDdude55 Crazy 4 TPU!!!

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    True

    Biggest problem with westom is that he's the kind of person that thinks he has it all figured out.. so as soon as anyone strays far from his thinking, it's obviously a ''myth''. From what i have seen from him he has always generally strayed far from the original topic at hand and instead insists on flaunting his electronics degree and yelling about how this is all basic ''high school physics''(. I don't understand why he doesn't just stay on topic, of course there is more to electronics then the orginial post, but that debate should be saved for another thread when it actually needs it.

    Great information from westom, but he does need to chill out a good bit in terms of the actual content of the posts.

    no offence.;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2010
  23. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

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    Well I am still trying to figure out where I said an APC will stop lighting? As a matter of fact I said they are good battery backups and nothing more. I also said NOTHING will stop lightening and you "proved" me wrong with a Ufer system of which NOBODY has built into a residential house. As a matter of fact all you have posted is gibberish with no practical solution to stop massive surges. Also please show me a 50 dollar gizmo at Home Depot that will stop a bolt of lighting from burning through your wooden house roof.

    Oh and that person I was talking about being a weapons avionic expert is my father who I gave a call to last night about this little debate and well lets just go ahead and say I'm right and you are wrong. Anything more might lead to me getting an infraction. I'm sorry but no matter how you word your little argument you are wrong.
     
  24. westom

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    You still do not get it. The topic is effective protection. Not myths and lies promoted without numeric specs. The OP asked:
    The topic is surge protection even from lightning. TheMailMan78 even admits APC products do not protect from destructive surges such as lightning. Then why would anyone waste money on those products? Scam (profit center) protectors do not claim protection from destructive surges. As TheMailMan78 posted; no protection even from lightning are products from APC.

    Provided were responsible manufacturers who make protectors that even protect from lightning. That remain undamaged after direct lightning strikes. And that cost tens or 100 times less money.

    The topic is protection even from lightning. TheMailMan78 admits that APC does not protect from lightning. So why does he recommend those products? Why does he keep posting? Because he was scammed. Because he did not even read APC's numeric specs. And now posts insults and accusations to deny he was recommending a scam.

    Where are APC numeric specs that claim protection from any surge? Never provided for a simple reason. APC does not claim effective protection where it matters - in the numbers. It is a profit center - not surge protection. The topic is protection even from lightning.
     
  25. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

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    I don't even own an APC. ITS A BATTERY BACKUP ANYWAY. And where is this magic gizmo that will stop lightening from hitting your house that costs "tens or 100 times less money" ?
     

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