solar roadways

[dorsetknob]

I think its a daft idea, (i am trying to be polite BTW.)

agree

It'd be cheaper to just build them above the roadway.

Stupid idea not practical or cost efficient
better to Build a new Nuclear reactor ( Even the Tree hugging unwashed hippys now accept nuclear power is an option that should be considered )

 

[Beertintedgoggles]

Stupid idea not practical or cost efficient
better to Build a new Nuclear reactor ( Even the Tree hugging unwashed hippys now accept nuclear power is an option that should be considered )

Exactly, even in an attempt to make this feasible it is still a stupid idea. However the point still stands, it would be cheaper and require less maintenance to distribute solar panels above a roadway rather than as the roadway.

 

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

Exactly, even in an attempt to make this feasible it is still a stupid idea. However the point still stands, it would be cheaper and require less maintenance to distribute solar panels above a roadway rather than as the roadway.

and then everyone will have to drive around with lights on................

 

[Beertintedgoggles]

and then everyone will have to drive around with lights on................

One step further; if cars ever become completely autonomous we could just ride around in the dark and put complete faith in a system that is out of our control.

 

[dorsetknob]

One step further; if cars ever become completely autonomous we could just ride around in the dark and put complete faith in a system that is out of our control.

Yeh that's like Running around a graveyard on 31 Oct Tripping on Acid ( and Gravestones )

 

[Caring1]

Exactly, even in an attempt to make this feasible it is still a stupid idea. However the point still stands, it would be cheaper and require less maintenance to distribute solar panels above a roadway rather than as the roadway.

Oh yea of little faith and knowledge.
You're not looking ahead to future possibilities but stuck on old technology.
Work is being done on paint on photo electric solar collectors that will one day enable entire roof top surfaces to be utilized, and this technology can be extended to any surface, including car bodies and roadways.
If the substance is integrated in to the roadway then the road itself becomes the solar collector.

 

[Steevo]

you seem to be confused about fusion and fission.

Not in the slightest. The reason the space station is in LEO is due to the radiation the sun gives off, satellites need radiation hardening for a reason, I work with GPS and the issues caused by the differing forms of radiation in multiple ways causes a lot of grief and issues that we can do jack all about other than better modeling and processing. Fusion releases high energy neutrons and irradiates its vessel, making for nuclear waste that is as hard to deal with as fission reactors after decommissioning.

https://www.euro-fusion.org/faq/does-fusion-give-off-radiation/

They mention its "short lived" at 50-100 years, but as of yet no long term fusion systems have operated, so we really have no idea. Comparing it to what we use for Fission reactors is a joke, as its equal to comparing a Model T car to a Super car, Fission can be achieved multiple ways, and the world has made a decision to use the worst, dirtiest, option with heavy/light water or pressurized water reactors instead of breeder, or salt reactors which can be turned off and walked away from with no cooling required after the figurative switch is flipped, and the "waste" is and can be continuously recycled into fuel cutting the actual waste by over 90% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor and it can provide the plutonium we need to leave the inner solar system, which we have been purchasing from Russia, or reprocessing from decommissioned nukes. They made this choice as the idea of countries having plutonium available after reprocessing means they could use it in weapons, and the US has a long standing issue with other countries nuclear power.

Long story short, Fusion is still a pipe dream, Fission can give us the base load energy we need and breeder reactors are significantly safer than PWR/LWR/HWR and the material is either going to decay underground and release its heat to no effect, or we can utilize it, its overall "greener" than any other power source currently, and the cost of nuclear VS solar is the subsidies and carbon credits that have made people like Musk rich http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html so while everyone else jerks off into socks about the low cost of solar they keep forgetting the taxes we all pay to make it appear that way, much like a few shots of whiskey and makeup on a old stripper.

 

[Beertintedgoggles]

Oh yea of little faith and knowledge.
You're not looking ahead to future possibilities but stuck on old technology.
Work is being done on paint on photo electric solar collectors that will one day enable entire roof top surfaces to be utilized, and this technology can be extended to any surface, including car bodies and roadways.
If the substance is integrated in to the roadway then the road itself becomes the solar collector.

I've yet to encounter any road surface ever that is impervious to cracks. Also, you're right, I have never heard of this paint that has photovoltaic properties. I'd imagine it would need to be resistive in at least one direction or else you'd need to put down an insulative layer between it and "ground" otherwise any amount of water has the potential to short the circuit. Again, not once did I ever mention it's not feasible for solar roadways, just that as far as economics go it will not be cheap. Also, how to prevent damage to the surface of the collectors from simple routine road use must be factored in as well. All I'm trying to point out is that the surface of a road is not an ideal environment for a surface that operates best when completely clean and unmolested by wear and tear. If they had mentioned piezoelectric roadways, I'd have more faith in that becoming part of future infrastructure. Leave solar panels on the rooftops or any other flat, non high-wear surface.

Edit: I did some digging and found one company that says they are working on PV paints (http://www.nanoflexpower.com/automotive). Another site that talks about them and "how-they-work" (http://www.proudgreenhome.com/news/new-paint-additive-turns-any-surface-into-a-solar-panel/) with absolutely no citation in it. Might as well tell me it runs on unicorn blood.

Last edit: Again, I hope I'm wrong in all this but these companies would be screaming about their achievements if they could substantiate their claims with proof. The way of the future is to harness the energy of the Sun (whether it be directly from collecting the power from photons or through wind energy driven by the weather which is essentially powered by the energy from the Sun). I guess gravitational energy is another source (hydroelectric being a hybrid of solar and gravitational) but using tidal energy sources is all on gravity (thanks to the Moon). All this is assuming our population doesn't keep growing at an exponential rate. Given current growths, nuclear energy has to be given serious thought still. All in all, a good population control program is what the World really needs but doesn't want to talk about

 

[FordGT90Concept]

*snip*

Which is the reason why the focus of fusion research involves really, really strong magnets. You want those neutrons to be returned to sender sustaining the reaction. The radiation is inevitable but like fission reactors, it is contained.

The difference between fission and fusion radiation is that fission is ionizing and fusion is not. The most immediate threat with fission radiation is thyroid problems. The most immediate threat with fusion radiation is skin problems.


This article covers a lot of the problems with solar in general:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/feb/16/is-hawaiis-solar-power-surge-slowing-down

This article focuses on similar problems in California:
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2016/10/01/californias-renewable-energy-grid-on-verge-of-crisis/

Imagine a pure solar and wind isolated power grid. What happens on a cloudy day with <1 mph wind? The crux of the articles above is that for every renewable energy installed by consumers, power utilities have to respond with natural gas capacity. Renewables are attractive on the micro scale (a business or a home owner) but on the macro scale, renewables are terrorizing.

 

[Steevo]

Which is the reason why the focus of fusion research involves really, really strong magnets. You want those neutrons to be returned to sender sustaining the reaction. The radiation is inevitable but like fission reactors, it is contained.

The difference between fission and fusion radiation is that fission is ionizing and fusion is not. The most immediate threat with fission radiation is thyroid problems. The most immediate threat with fusion radiation is skin problems.


This article covers a lot of the problems with solar in general:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/feb/16/is-hawaiis-solar-power-surge-slowing-down

This article focuses on similar problems in California:
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2016/10/01/californias-renewable-energy-grid-on-verge-of-crisis/

Imagine a pure solar and wind isolated power grid. What happens on a cloudy day with <1 mph wind? The crux of the articles above is that for every renewable energy installed by consumers, power utilities have to respond with natural gas capacity. Renewables are attractive on the micro scale (a business or a home owner) but on the macro scale, renewables are terrorizing.

We are still 10-50 years or it may never happen that fusion is a sustainable power generating option for us. Fission is a reality, and yeah, people who espouse the grand solar and wind idea as the end all don't know or care to know the true costs on the large scale it takes to run a nation with things like steel mills, hospitals, traffic lights, refrigeration for their food supply, and much else. They believe their home is the only part of the world that matters. https://www.eia.gov/consumption/manufacturing/briefs/steel/

 

[Vario]

You are correct that using solar and wind as the end all is not a practical solution to meet large scale needs.

Diversifying power sources is smart. Solar roadways? not smart for a variety of reasons mentioned already in this thread. But solar collectors in addition to other renewable and non renewable power sources is smart. Diversification reduces a variety of risks.

And the reality is that eventually gas, coal, oil will not be there like it is now. We need to develop the technology and it is an incremental process. Besides which, running solar and wind power is much less disruptive to the environment, not as much of a NIMBY problem. I wouldn't mind having solar panels on my property to reduce some of my power costs or to heat my water.

We are still 10-50 years or it may never happen that fusion is a sustainable power generating option for us. Fission is a reality, and yeah, people who espouse the grand solar and wind idea as the end all don't know or care to know the true costs on the large scale it takes to run a nation with things like steel mills, hospitals, traffic lights, refrigeration for their food supply, and much else. They believe their home is the only part of the world that matters. https://www.eia.gov/consumption/manufacturing/briefs/steel/

 

[FordGT90Concept]

They believe their home is the only part of the world that matters. https://www.eia.gov/consumption/manufacturing/briefs/steel/

I wonder if these 3+ MW wind turbines produce more power in their lifespan than it takes to build them.


Fusion does work, it's just a matter of containment and sustainment. I think it'll eventually be commercialized but I don't know when.

 

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

A solar panel road, claimed to be the world's first, has opened in France.

The 0.6 miles (1km) stretch of road in the small Normandy village of Tourouvre-au-Perche is paved with 2,880 solar panels, which convert energy from the sun into electricity.
http://www.colas.com/en/innovation/solar-road


The 'Wattway' road features 2,800 sq m (9,186 sq ft) of panels and was showcased today at an inauguration ceremony attended by French minister for Ecology, Sustainable Development and Energy Ségolène Royal.

The road is expected to produce 280 MWh of electricity a year.

While the daily production will fluctuate according to weather and seasons, it is expected to reach 767 kWh per day, with peaks up to 1,500 kWh per day in summer.

Some 2,000 motorists will use the RD5 road every day during a two-year test period.

The project is said to have cost €5m (£4.2m/$5.1) and was financed by the French government.

http://phys.org/news/2016-12-road-paved-solar-panels-powers.html

 

[Beertintedgoggles]

http://theweek.com/speedreads/669005/worlds-first-solar-road-kind-disaster

A different spin on the story.... here's an interesting snippet

"In fact, "each kilowatt-peak — the unit of measure for solar energy — generated by Wattway currently costs 17 euros, compared with 1.30 euros for a major rooftop installation," Phys.org explains."

 

[FordGT90Concept]

It's worth remembering that this Wattway is far less ambitious than the original solar roadway project this thread was created about. Case in point, this road doesn't have any heating elements in it to melt ice. It's just photovoltaic cells embedded into a transparent-surfaced road.

I'll be curious to know if this road causes problems in the future because I imagine it's quite disorienting/distracting to drive on. I'm also curious about its endurance.

 

[Steevo]

It's worth remembering that this Wattway is far less ambitious than the original solar roadway project this thread was created about. Case in point, this road doesn't have any heating elements in it to melt ice. It's just photovoltaic cells embedded into a transparent-surfaced road.

I'll be curious to know if this road causes problems in the future because I imagine it's quite disorienting/distracting to drive on. I'm also curious about its endurance.

Someone there made a great comment "The problem with this Socialism is eventually you run out of other peoples money".


They are being resin covered apparently, so perhaps its better than glass, but still every part of it requires energy, and the huge losses from being on the road VS making solar roof tiles.... stupid.

They claim Solar is cheaper, but forget the whole subsidies part, cause its an inconvenient fact.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I think that is a Margaret Thatcher quote.

 

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

China is set to open its first solar motorway that can generate electricity under sunlight.

The high-tech photovoltaic highway comprises the southern part of the Jinan City Expressway in the provincial capital of Shandong and is expected to open by the end of December, reported People's Daily Online.
Formed with special weight-bearing solar panels, the road can hold medium-size vans and has strong friction.
Once it's completed, the highway would be connected to the power grid so it could provide electricity to the city.
The solar highway is formed with three layers.
The top layer is paved with the so-called 'transparent concrete', which is said to be as strong as the traditional road-surfacing material, asphalt concrete.
The middle layer is the power-generating layer consisting of solar panels.
The bottom layer is the insulation layer which separates the photovoltaic system from the damp earth.

The highway is built by Qilu Transportation Development Group, a state-owned company in charge of the transport infrastructure of Shandong Province, according to Jiemian News.
In September, the group completed China's first solar road, also in Jinan, after 10 months of construction. The road is fitted with 660 square metres (7,104 square feet) of photovoltaic panels and has been connected to the power grid.

 

[Beertintedgoggles]

It'd be great if this could be done on an economic scale on most roadways (efficient use of a flat surface) and integrate a defroster of some sorts so snowy/frozen/salted roads are no longer an issue. Since the electrical connections will already be made why not? Might even save energy in its lifetime since snow plows won't be in such demand (energy saved right off with not needing to make as many salt trucks), the fuel saved and the wear and tear saved from delivering salt onto the roadways, the environmental damage saved from not unloading all that salt into a watershed; not to mention the safety of a clear, dry, and warmed raodway.

 

[64K]

Not sure why anyone is looking at solar power as the future tech anyway. We should have fusion reactors in less than a decade and energy will be cheap. Here in the USA the taxes don't seem to be enough to keep the pot holes patched on asphalt roadways much less some solar cell paved roads.

 

[blobster21]

A solar panel road, claimed to be the world's first, has opened in France.

The 0.6 miles (1km) stretch of road in the small Normandy village of Tourouvre-au-Perche is paved with 2,880 solar panels, which convert energy from the sun into electricity.
http://www.colas.com/en/innovation/solar-road


The 'Wattway' road features 2,800 sq m (9,186 sq ft) of panels and was showcased today at an inauguration ceremony attended by French minister for Ecology, Sustainable Development and Energy Ségolène Royal.

The road is expected to produce 280 MWh of electricity a year.

While the daily production will fluctuate according to weather and seasons, it is expected to reach 767 kWh per day, with peaks up to 1,500 kWh per day in summer.

Some 2,000 motorists will use the RD5 road every day during a two-year test period.

The project is said to have cost €5m (£4.2m/$5.1) and was financed by the French government.


http://phys.org/news/2016-12-road-paved-solar-panels-powers.html

And here's a follow up, roughly 1 year later: "By now, anyone who has ever used the solar road portion should be aware of the noise it generates when a vehicle is traveling on it. A reproach that often comes up from the tourouvrain business owners. If Hervé Leclercq imagines other types of possible coatings, maybe this photovoltaic panels technology would be better suited to areas such as car parks or pedestrian streets. In order to reduce the sound impact."

source

 

[FordGT90Concept]

...the road can hold medium-size vans...

The top layer is paved with the so-called 'transparent concrete', which is said to be as strong as the traditional road-surfacing material, asphalt concrete.

Warning: contradiction detected!

It'd be great if this could be done on an economic scale on most roadways (efficient use of a flat surface) and integrate a defroster of some sorts so snowy/frozen/salted roads are no longer an issue. Since the electrical connections will already be made why not? Might even save energy in its lifetime since snow plows won't be in such demand (energy saved right off with not needing to make as many salt trucks), the fuel saved and the wear and tear saved from delivering salt onto the roadways, the environmental damage saved from not unloading all that salt into a watershed; not to mention the safety of a clear, dry, and warmed raodway.

Solar radition is weakest in the winter...which is why it is winter. There's not enough sunlight to provide much power to the grid, nevermind produce enormous amounts of BTUs to keep the road above freezing. It would likely suck Gwhs worth of power from the grid per mile. They already can install heating systems in problematical places (bridges/intersections) that are not solar powered, way stronger, and way more efficient.

Trucks used to plow and de-ice roads are used year round for maintenance. Trucks use substantially less energy than heating roads.

Trucks, period, do the most damage to roads. One 80,000 lb 18-wheeler does as much damage to a road as 9,000 SUVs.

And here's a follow up, roughly 1 year later: "By now, anyone who has ever used the solar road portion should be aware of the noise it generates when a vehicle is traveling on it. A reproach that often comes up from the tourouvrain business owners. If Hervé Leclercq imagines other types of possible coatings, maybe this photovoltaic panels technology would be better suited to areas such as car parks or pedestrian streets. In order to reduce the sound impact."

source

Reminds me of the biodegradable Sun Chip bag. People complained about how loud it was so they quit using it. Going back to plastic made me sad.