Which sound card?

[selway89]

Ok so i turned 19 the other day and I've been looking at a dedicated sound card.
Last year I had a Creative SoundBlaster X-Fi XtremeMusic.
Sounded good I have to admit but had terrible support for Vista and sounded dreadful in games along with stability issues in the Crysis demo. As a result I sold it.

Now I'd like to look at getting a nice card to drop into my machine that wont brake the bank.
£60 tops!

Now I've seen other XtremeMusic on eBay for around £40, and were thinking of swapping out the stereo Op-amp for a LM4562 (apparently sounds much better). Plus the release of the drivers from Dan K or someone along those lines.

Or

Opt for a Asus Xonar DX; which I've read great reviews. Allot praise it for the out of the box no hassle setup and crystal clear sound. In cases sounding better than the X-Fi

Notes

Not too fussed about EAX support, never really heard the benefit. Anyother or cheaper options please let me know.

Many thanks

James

 

[imperialreign]

Ok so i turned 19 the other day and I've been looking at a dedicated sound card.
Last year I had a Creative SoundBlaster X-Fi XtremeMusic.
Sounded good I have to admit but had terrible support for Vista and sounded dreadful in games along with stability issues in the Crysis demo. As a result I sold it.

Now I'd like to look at getting a nice card to drop into my machine that wont brake the bank.
£60 tops!

Now I've seen other XtremeMusic on eBay for around £40, and were thinking of swapping out the stereo Op-amp for a LM4562 (apparently sounds much better). Plus the release of the drivers from Dan K or someone along those lines.

Or

Opt for a Asus Xonar DX; which I've read great reviews. Allot praise it for the out of the box no hassle setup and crystal clear sound. In cases sounding better than the X-Fi

Notes

Not too fussed about EAX support, never really heard the benefit. Anyother or cheaper options please let me know.

Many thanks

James

The ASUS Xonar and Razer Barracuda AC-1, as well as HT Omega's cards all function relatively well within Vista . . . I haven't heard of too many issues with them.

The Xonar does beat out most of the X-Fi lineup in terms of audio quality, but the X-Fi Elite Pro, and Auzentech Prelude still sound better than the Xonar. For the money, though, the Xonar is a great choice.

the Barracuda is a fast audio card, faster than the Xonar, and runs neck and neck with the X-Fi Fatal1ty. But, like the Xonar, though, uses a lot of CPU cycles while processing audio. This is a big are where the X-Fi's still reign supreme, they don't require any CPU usage for processing.

You could purchase an Xtreme Music or Fatal1ty and swap the OPAMPs to the LM4562; it will improve audio clarity (not quality) some, but for the best audio from the cards, they need to be heavily modified. Not the hardest thing in the world to do, but should you happen to mess something up, you could potentially kill the card - just something to keep in mind.



I thin the Xonar would prob be a great choice for you, or even give some thought to the Razer Barracuda. Both are worth their price (although the Razer is still overpriced most of the time).

 

[selway89]

Cheers! Think the Razer is way out of my price range; and not too keen on the DVI looking connector with the flying leads.
But regarding the CPU usage, is it really that noticable with todays processing power? I'm running Core2 Duo E4500 at 3.21Ghz, so would there be a huge hit?

Also the X-Fi cards have the so called up sampling (just seems like an EQ settings or variable EQ) so how do the Xonars fair with compressed audio. Although I am starting to make use of FLAC, but still allot compressed files in my collection.

 

[imperialreign]

Cheers! Think the Razer is way out of my price range; and not too keen on the DVI looking connector with the flying leads.
But regarding the CPU usage, is it really that noticable with todays processing power? I'm running Core2 Duo E4500 at 3.21Ghz, so would there be a huge hit?

Also the X-Fi cards have the so called up sampling (just seems like an EQ settings or variable EQ) so how do the Xonars fair with compressed audio. Although I am starting to make use of FLAC, but still allot compressed files in my collection.

all cards that I know can upsample audio files. That's where an audio file that was recorded at 44khz is played back at 96khz, etc.

what the X-Fi's have, though, is the feature they call the "crystallizer". In a nutshell, it amplifies certain aspects of an audio files dynamic range, which restores some amounts of detail that are "lost" during audio compression and conversion . . . really, the information isn't lost, it just becomes buried amoungst everything else.

The crystallizer feature works best with compressed audio (like mp3s) and game audio (as most in game audio is compressed), but it tend to detract from audio quality when using it with high bitrate files. This is where upsampling works better.



As to CPU usage, with a dual core, i doubt you'd notice it much at all. It's more noticeable with single core CPUs, or with extremelly intensive games, or if you already have the CPU heavily chored to begin with. All audio cards use some amount of CPU processing, but an X-Fi might only make use of 1% on average, where a card like the Xonar might make use of 6% or better. It is very rare for an audio card to require any more than 10% CPU usage, and in the grand scheme of things, even 10% is barely noticed unless the CPU is very, very busy.

In game, it might account to a loss of 0.5-1.5 FPS. And that's being very generous as well.

 

[selway89]

Hmm I'm really torn between the X-Fi and Xonar lol. But thanks for clearing those questions up. Greately appriciated

 

[imperialreign]

Hmm I'm really torn between the X-Fi and Xonar lol. But thanks for clearing those questions up. Greately appriciated

no prob


TBH, though, I still lean towards the Xonar, mostly due to the fact that you're running Vista - but, I've also seen many other users with X-Fis and Vista that have never had any problems, either.

But, you don't have access to everything you're paying for with an X-Fi is you use Vista . . . no hardware acceleration

 

[niko084]

The Xonar does beat out most of the X-Fi lineup in terms of audio quality, but the X-Fi Elite Pro, and Auzentech Prelude still sound better than the Xonar. For the money, though, the Xonar is a great choice.

This actually is not true, the Xonar beats the Prelude in straight audio quality *They are really close though, but in signal out to signal in loop the Xonar is more accurate*, I cannot say for certain about the XFI Elite Pro.

Personally I love the Xonar, its not the best for gaming, but all around its a very high quality card. Not to take anything away from the Prelude, its also a great card.

Not a big fan of anything Creative lately, drivers/software I always seem to be able to crash.

 

[imperialreign]

This actually is not true, the Xonar beats the Prelude in straight audio quality *They are really close though, but in signal out to signal in loop the Xonar is more accurate*, I cannot say for certain about the XFI Elite Pro.
Personally I love the Xonar, its not the best for gaming, but all around its a very high quality card. Not to take anything away from the Prelude, its also a great card.

Not a big fan of anything Creative lately, drivers/software I always seem to be able to crash.

In loopback, the D2 and D2X tromp the Prelude, but possibly a poor quality ADC could be what hinders the Prelude in this regard. In straight playback, though, the Prelude outputs equal to or better than the Xonars. D2X is on par with the Prelude . . . at least, in terms of high-quality playback: http://techreport.com/articles.x/13874/14

In lower quality outputs, though, the D2 and the D2x edge out the Prelude . . . but the Prelude was designed for playing back at the highest output quality.

But, actual differences between the output quality of both cards would be hard to distinguish, unless you have a high-quality speaker setup. And besides, the Prelude and the X-Fi Elite Pro are some of the most expensive audio cards on the market. For their prices, I'd expect nothing less than the best playback.

 

[Lillebror]

I got the Xonar and i love it! It just work Never had any problems with it in vista!

 

[selway89]

I got the Xonar and i love it! It just work Never had any problems with it in vista!

Which one? The D2 or the little DX? I'm after the DX not the D2 or DX2

I move back home after completing my first year of uni, i'll be hooking the pc upto my dads recently retired Mission 781 (older ones, but very very nice) and a Cyrus One amp.


My wallets crying X-Fi off eBay (cheaper)
or Xonar DX (bit more of a premium)

Anyway I have plenty of time to mull it over. Thanks all, keep it coming if you can

 

[silverlai3]

all cards that I know can upsample audio files. That's where an audio file that was recorded at 44khz is played back at 96khz, etc.

what the X-Fi's have, though, is the feature they call the "crystallizer". In a nutshell, it amplifies certain aspects of an audio files dynamic range, which restores some amounts of detail that are "lost" during audio compression and conversion . . . really, the information isn't lost, it just becomes buried amoungst everything else.

That's so not true... MP3 is known as 'destructive' compression. After a file is compressed, the data that is eliminated in the creation of the MP3 cannot be replaced. It is IMPOSSIBLE to "RESTORE" the lost data in the audio file.

Don't be fooled by Creative marketing gimmicks, that's the only thing they've been good at.
The Crystallizer is at best a echo reverb trick that tweaks certain area of the audio data. You can say it is a DSP effect for sure, but please don't say it RESTORE the LOST data anymore.

 

[silverlai3]

Hmm I'm really torn between the X-Fi and Xonar lol. But thanks for clearing those questions up. Greately appriciated

The choice should be easy to made: since you'll be using an external AMP to amplify the audio, a clean audio source is a must otherwise the noise and the distortion will also be amplified to your speakers.

Conclusion: Xonar DX is your only choice at this moment.

X-FI on ebay might be cheaper now (why they want to sell it? there must be a reason), but buyning a new replacement due to poor audio/driver will cost you more later.

 

[imperialreign]

That's so not true... MP3 is known as 'destructive' compression. After a file is compressed, the data that is eliminated in the creation of the MP3 cannot be replaced. It is IMPOSSIBLE to "RESTORE" the lost data in the audio file.

Don't be fooled by Creative marketing gimmicks, that's the only thing they've been good at.
The Crystallizer is at best a echo reverb trick that tweaks certain area of the audio data. You can say it is a DSP effect for sure, but please don't say it RESTORE the LOST data anymore.

for starters, it depends on the bitrate of the mp3 - the lower the recorded bitrate, the less information that is actually taken from the source. Even still, even at low bitrates, there are still small amounts of information left - but on such a small degree that even with some of the best WAV analyzers out there, you probably wouldn't notice it. These small bits of information become "buried" amoungst the louder voices in a track.

Besides - you read way too far into my previous post. I was trying to be brief instead of giving a really drawn out answer. Crystallizer is not a "reverb effect" - it's a rather complex DSP, that in it's very basic form is a means of amplification and equalization across a track. What I meant by "restore" is that certain voices in a tracks dynamic range, which would become buried by louder voices in the track after compression, are amplified back to a volume level that would make them discernable, then the track is equalized so as to not have one single voice louder than another. But, this amplification is applied to the whole track, not just the buried background voices. The further you turn up the crystallizer effect, the higher the chance you will start running into distortion during playback as well. Plus, the amount of effect that is actually discernable, and how far it can be applied before playback is affected depends on the tracks overall bitrate. You'll notice more distortion in a track ripped at 320kbps as compared to one ripped at 128kbps, as the individual voices in the 320kbps track are already more discernable.

Here, do some reading: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/multimedia/creative-x-fi-part2.html

 

[jonmcc33]

That's so not true... MP3 is known as 'destructive' compression. After a file is compressed, the data that is eliminated in the creation of the MP3 cannot be replaced. It is IMPOSSIBLE to "RESTORE" the lost data in the audio file.

Don't be fooled by Creative marketing gimmicks, that's the only thing they've been good at.
The Crystallizer is at best a echo reverb trick that tweaks certain area of the audio data. You can say it is a DSP effect for sure, but please don't say it RESTORE the LOST data anymore.

The choice should be easy to made: since you'll be using an external AMP to amplify the audio, a clean audio source is a must otherwise the noise and the distortion will also be amplified to your speakers.

Conclusion: Xonar DX is your only choice at this moment.

X-FI on ebay might be cheaper now (why they want to sell it? there must be a reason), but buyning a new replacement due to poor audio/driver will cost you more later.

Very true in both posts. Asus is making a huge turn on the market with their sound cards. I can't wait to get one myself!

 

[silverlai3]

Here, do some reading: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/multimedia/creative-x-fi-part2.html

The conclusion in the link is probably the only most important to me:

We have seen no miracle, the X-Fi sound card in cooperation with Crystalizer failed to wonderfully remaster a recording, thoroughly created by experts in a mastering studio. Even if the contrary was proved by hundred housewives from a focus group within Creative marketing research, in my tests MP3 didn't overcome CD-DA and didn't catch up with DVD-Audio......I doubt that modern popular recordings need additional violation of their dynamic range. Probably you'd better carefully choose the Crystalizer effect until you hear the signs of overload. You must also take into account that Crystalizer increases the volume level by 3-4 dB in digital form. So perhaps all you need is to increase the volume by the same value and avoid distortions in the tonal balance and other problems.​

So much for such a complecated DSP algorithm.

Still, I just can't stand that Creative's been bragging about how Crystalizer RESTOREs the details of MP3 for years, and cheating on so many loyal customers for such a long time.

 

[jonmcc33]

...cheating on so many loyal customers for such a long time.

They are accustomed to doing so?

 

[imperialreign]

The conclusion in the link is probably the only most important to me:


So much for such a complecated DSP algorithm.

Still, I just can't stand that Creative's been bragging about how Crystalizer RESTOREs the details of MP3 for years, and cheating on so many loyal customers for such a long time.

that's marketing at it's best, without a doubt. Creative, like many other companies at the time, were trying to cash in on the mp3 craze - the craze that brought about the infernal ipod, and countless other means of supporting, IMO, a worthless audio format. There are far too many other audio formats that compress audio data to the same extent, but not anywhere near as destructively as mp3 - ogg and wma are good examples.


Hopefully, with all the newcomers to the audio market over the last few years, we'll start to see Creative get off their high-horse and head back towards the company they once were. Personally, I find their hardware to be truly competent and of good quality - but the way Creative treats it's customers, their customer service, and their tech support seriously fall short of what other companies like Auzentech and ASUS are capable of.

 

[jonmcc33]

Hopefully, with all the newcomers to the audio market over the last few years, we'll start to see Creative get off their high-horse and head back towards the company they once were.

Once were? Are we talking about pre-EAX days? SoundBlaster 128?

 

[selway89]

Hmm well I may just have to save up first before I buy but I think I've made my mind up, and will go for the Xonar DX

Decided to install my brothers E-MU 0202 USB 2.0 sound card with the Cyrus One amp and Mission 781 speakers. Trying to decide if it's better than the Realtek ALC888 codec my motherboard has.

 

[imperialreign]

Once were? Are we talking about pre-EAX days? SoundBlaster 128?

that's pretty funny! naw, not that far back . . . it was around the releas of the Live! series that they started going down the toilet . . . at least in terms of their customer relations and customer service. They've had hardware issues for years, though, but kinda to be expected in the audio hardware market - at least it wasn't anything major until the tail end of the Audigy series and the release of the X-Fis.

Hmm well I may just have to save up first before I buy but I think I've made my mind up, and will go for the Xonar DX

Decided to install my brothers E-MU 0202 USB 2.0 sound card with the Cyrus One amp and Mission 781 speakers. Trying to decide if it's better than the Realtek ALC888 codec my motherboard has.

The Xonar is a good choice, you should enjoy it. Plus, if you ever have any issues, ASUS has an excellent customer/tech service relations.

 

[selway89]

Well finally got my new card after my brother took back his E-MU and now actually makes use of it now he knows how.....

Final outcome is a XtremeMusic card brandnew in retail box (bit worn lol) off eBay for £27 posted! And not a single problem unlike my last X-Fi

Only went for the X-Fi because it were cheap and cant quite afford to splash out for the Xnoar. I just know ill get the awkward feeling of guilt once bought lol.

Plus as a bonus I can tinker with the X-Fi, I plan on swapping out the op amps and capacitors over time. Nice little project.

Sounds fantastic with the Mission speakers!

Thanks for all the advice and information!

James

 

[btarunr]

Hmm no X-Fi?

Get ASUS Xonar DX (not to confuse with D2X). This card is simply great, comes with great support and is PCI-E x1, Dolby Digital decode. ASUS Page.

And it's $99.99 +sh from Newegg

 

[selway89]

Yeah I had looked at it but well both my PCI-e 1x slots are either side of my hot 2900XT. And its a bit too pricey for me atm. But the X-Fi is doing a much better job than the last one I had!

 

[Electric]

Modding a Xtreme Music(Fully modded(Caps,Opamps) will perform on par or better than a Elite Pro(Sound quality wise). But do keep in mind that modding will improve quality but it will slow down the audio playback process a bit.

To my experience the Xonar D2 sounds better than all the creative X-Fis. The DX has slightly lower fidelity. I assume it will perform like a Xtreme Music or so.

Good that you got the Xtreme Music.....The best all around card so far!

 

[btarunr]

Modding a Xtreme Music(Fully modded(Caps,Opamps) will perform on par or better than a Elite Pro(Sound quality wise). But do keep in mind that modding will improve quality but it will slow down the audio playback process a bit.

Capacitors aren't the only things that determine output quality, DAC and OPAMP do (as well). Secondly, The Xtreme Music and Elite Pro do not share the same PCB design. While Xtreme Music/Gamer and Platinum use a unified DAC (8 channels), the Elite Pro uses a design methodology similar to the Auzentech X-Meridian, the DAC's are staged. Every two output channels share a 2-channel DAC.