(Anti) SFF fun house

[tabascosauz]

Some upgrades came down the pipe

Table: got a wood butcher block to replace the hollow particleboard IKEA top. Had known I could get something like this for $200usd and DIY it in a day, I would have never bought the IDÅSEN top. $200usd for a 1.75" block of rubberwood, vs. $150cad for a 1.1" half-hollow piece of cardboard.

The Blackbox for my VKB Gunfighter mk3 took a bit of thinking - I used to have it taped basically in the middle of my desk due to the interface cable not being that long. But having it velcro'd to the underside is a much better position if I decide to get the T-rudders at some point.

Also didn't want to stick things to the wood if I could avoid it, so the two USB 3.0 extensions for joystick/throttle go on the monitor arm (god bless post-type stands). I never realized how my dependence on USB has obscenely ballooned in the past few years. Out of 19 total USB ports I can use, there are only 5 that are not constantly plugged into - minus another 2 for stuff I plug in often (my X60R for some games, and my SD card reader), and minus another 2 for HOTAS.

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New CPU:

This wasn't quite an "impulse buy".........but maybe not that thought-out either.

Now that it's running -30 all cores and 100W/65A/90A, it behaves differently compared to the 5900X:

• Much lower Vcore generally. After CO, 1.2V or below at all times.
• Slightly lower idle power. About 20W, vs. high 20s to 30W on 5900X.
• Slightly lower and more consistent idle temps.
• Less spikes in temps and clock.
• Much lower power in games. Usually no higher than 50W ever (40W ish in a lot of games), compared to 60-100W for 5900X ST games.
• Much lower temps in most CPU-demanding games. From 70-85C, to no more than 65C usually.
• Higher GPU utilization (?) in some games
• Noticeably better performance in worst case gaming scenarios (e.g. cluttered minecraft servers, SC2 custom zombie games)
• More consistent FPS, less prolonged FPS dips (e.g. MW, outdoor market on Gap map in Sandstorm) in some games.
• Generally smoother experience across all games
• Good core temp deltas

However:

• Unimpressive benchmark scores
• Unimpressive DRAM latency (automatic +4 or +5ns)
• Doesn't seem capable of booting 1900 FCLK (still not sure why or what to blame, board does 4000 fine with 5900X, and VSOC is low even at 3733 (<1.05V))
• Hotter in some all-core loads
• PBO and CO completely locked out (however, PBO2 tuner can still modify SMU directly on the fly in WIndows)
• Boost seems to behave very differently - Fmax seems to treat 4450 as the limit unless pure ST load is started and it moves up closer to 4550, boost is not very aggressive (more similar to Zen 2), game clocks are low even for Windows 11, cache clocks seem quite disconnected from core clocks in games (unlike other Zen 3 parts)

 

[tabascosauz]

So in an unassuming and routine bugfix update, Mihoyo decided to remove all other AA (temporarily) and add FSR 2.0

• in Genshin Impact
• a mobile Unity game from 2020
• that makes terrible use of CPU and GPU resources and is still locked to 60fps on PC for zero good reason
• in which G-sync took 2 years after launch to finally run properly, and not of Mihoyo's doing but Microsoft's unexpected benevolence in Windows 11

..................meanwhile, Activision opted for FSR 1.0

• in MW2
• a AAA game from 2022
• that ironically has up-to-date implementations DLSS 2.4 and XeSS
• where Nvidia performance is questionable with launch drivers, even though the game has been out for 2 weeks (including campaign access)
• and Nvidia's new drivers are even worse and borderline unusable due to widespread, random instances of flickering over large parts of the screen

Recent 6800/6800XT/6900XT price drops, MW2 performance on Radeon, and today's announcement of 7900XT - must be God's way of telling me that all of Nvidia's driver team fled to AMD, and that red is now the only choice.

what
a
time
to
be
alive

 

[tabascosauz]

It's always the waiting that kills me..........I know I want in on this Caselabs revival, but which case?

• S3: tried and tested and my dream case, but WCing actually seems to be a bit challenging (especially dual rads). Air works fine, I know I won't be waterblocking this 3070 Ti (probably ever), air cooling for GPUs isn't exactly ideal but I think it can be done with a vented panel on that side.
• S5: way too friggin huge for a dead form factor (I think in the last 4 generations, the only confidence-inspiring mATX has been the Gene)
• X2M: tried and tested, provides comfortable amount of space for WC, but proportions are weird, and 2+ slot GPUs are going to be a problem. Inverted layout is nice to have, but presents problems for preventing GPU sag
• X2: is coming, but might come out later than the already-released cases, is the perfect size but will probably not fit my GPU, has the same problems for 2+ slot GPUs, no flexbay
• X5: ditto, a bit more space than X2 and possibility for mATX, but also probably will not fit a 300mm GPU, no flexbay

Anyway, picked up a few things for an interim solution while I wait:

• Openbenchtable Mini: got one as my current testbenches are too honking big, and I do need to move out of the Cerberus to test bigger air coolers
• Thermalright PA120: regardless of what my next case is, C14S's time is over as it's really not up to the task of handling higher end CPUs these days (5800X reaches maximum perf at like 105W PPT, it's a hilariously low power CPU). I love the looks of this cooler
• 3 x Phanteks T30: needs no introduction, absolute king of 120s at the moment, I am really appreciating the daisy chain ability and the 3 different speed modes. Even coming from Noctua, the build quality of these fans is insane - they feel like 140s, not 120s, built like an absolute tank.

So far it looks like 2 x T30s @ 1050rpm are able to keep up with 2 x A14s @ 850rpm. Doesn't look that impressive on paper, but the higher speed T30s are already appreciably quieter than the A14s.

I'm not sure what it is about the A14 (credit where credit's due, it's really an old timer and Noctua really needs to replace them soon), but it's just a terrible case fan. It needs a lot of vibration decoupling or else it starts droning like mad starting at just 800rpm. Great rad fan though (as long as it's gasketed properly to provide that decoupling), and great heatsink fan.

 

[tabascosauz]

Wrapping up the year with a little midlife refresh of my main setup as we enter the waiting phase.

Things never go according to plan and the T30s are no exception. It's a bit too much of a chore to get them onto heatsinks, and doing so risks severely bending fins/fan clips. For now, one is doing RAM duty at 600rpm, and the other two are in storage.

Mounting the T30 on the OBT took a bit of thinking. The mounts are meant for something that is inherently threaded (ie. rads or fans on rads). Took a moment to think, then went to Home Depot to pick up some 6-32 nuts for the long rad screws that Phanteks provides. Works perfectly.

If I get a FC140, they will be going on that cooler. If I don't, they will be case fans.

The PA120 didn't work out; the U12A was a compromise, but it's such a nice package that it's probably a keeper. 5800X3D does not warrant more cooling.

Finally, the incumbent 5800X3D and everyone's favourite Impact:

It was very surprising to see that the mounting hardware for the U12A Chromax is also matte black. Didn't expect that.

Maybe there will be a 7900XT or FC140 in the new year - just don't foresee anything else changing before Caselabs relaunches. Sorry X670E Gene, I'm just not interested in a Mercury S5.

 

[Mussels]

5800x3D? ONE OF US!

That thing looks like a modern art sculpture, the x3D is a fantastic gaming choice - it only heats up in AVX loads and barely sips the juice for gaming so it's ideal for SFF

 

[tabascosauz]

That thing looks like a modern art sculpture

Right after I ordered the Openbenchtable under black friday discount I immediately remembered that the Motif Monument exists, and had a fleeting moment of regret. Because that case is the real modern art masterpiece

Motif Monument

The Motif Monument is an open PC chassis for Mini-ITX motherboards designed and built in the USA. The purpose of this design is to present small form factor components in a unique and elegant configuration. A finished build with this chassis is meant to function as a showpiece computer without...

yuelbeaststore.com

But like I said, it was only fleeting, because it costs like twice as much, long GPUs look really really wacky, GPU airflow is shit, probably less sturdy than OBT, and is much less versatile than the OBT. From now on I refuse to pay $300usd for anything that isn't Caselabs

it's ideal for SFF

if everything goes according to plan, we will be the very embodiment of anti-SFF in a year's time

 

[tabascosauz]

it's ideal for SFF

we will be the very embodiment of anti-SFF in a year's time

I think I may have already found what I'm looking for. Fingers crossed, and we won't have to wait until next year

 

[tabascosauz]

A bunch of changes have been afoot recently, but I'll start with something positive.

The Mercury S3 has been my dream case since I built my first PC. Unfortunately, circumstances never permitted me to get one - when it came out it was too expensive for me, then it was a couple magnitudes too big for my use case (carry-on travel), then Caselabs discontinued the S3 while I was out of country, then finally Caselabs went out of business while I was too deep down in the dumps to think about my PC.

Caselabs will return sometime later this year, but I decided not to wait anymore. I picked up a white S3 with a 280mm flexbay, 240mm drop-in top mount, stealth mobo SSD tray mount, extended top, and two windowed panels. Starting this year I want to begin settling down for the long haul, and stop changing things out so often. After all, ever since I moved out of the NCASE, every subsequent case has been a series of compromises. The S3 is aiming to solve that once and for all.

• Easy side panel removal, easy to run with side panels off (which I usually do)
• Effectively unlimited CPU air cooler clearance
• Room for AIO top or front if I decide to go that way
• Room to get back into water if I decide to go that way
• Room for big PSUs (more on this later)
• Direct front-to-back airflow

The build quality still holds up today after 6-8 years. Obviously, the entire case is made of aluminium, but in varying thicknesses. The panels are less impressive today, especially compared to the 2mm aluminium panels on Sliger cases. However, the case frame is thick, tough as a tank and pretty much unmatched in strength-to-weight - in this area, Sliger cases are underwhelming, bendy steel boxes full of rivets. And as expected, the entire case can be disassembled and flat packed.

Even good things are never perfect, however. People evidently don't take good care of their cases, so there is an ongoing effort to bring the case back up to full strength:

• Missing at least 5 countersunk 6-32 screws - these screws hold together the frame, and although functionally it does not affect the case's integrity after some shuffling-around of the screws that are present, this was rather alarming and disappointing to see
• Many screws are not original and fit poorly as expected
• Motherboard standoffs are absolutely clapped out, taken from some other random case, and may be causing some poor fitment around the GPU area
• Original SBR feet are solid but kinda ugly - replaced with the MNPCtech CNC feet off my Cerberus adapted with some new screws and washers, perfect fit
• Extended top has a crack in the back corner, not an integrity issue but I may get a new top when CL re-launches
• Extended top's hex rivet nuts are starting to wobble a little, so I cemented them in place with a dab of superglue each on the inside
• Ball stud receivers on almost all the panels are loose and worn, need to be replaced to be able to hold the panels on tightly
• Someone clearly had an accident in the case, the bottom fan blanking panel was incorrectly mounted so I took it off only to find it dripping with coolant

 

[tabascosauz]

Random question - I may have missed it but does the issue persist on an AMD GPU?

I recalled this question of yours earlier today - yes, I can confirm that the flickering happens on both G-sync Compatible and Freesync.

It would be interesting to see if a G-SYNC/G-SYNC Ultimate monitor is immune, but I have neither the need nor budget for one at the moment. Don't think there are any 32" IPS 1440p 165Hz panels that exist with dedicated G-SYNC, only VA, 60Hz, or 4K.

 

[Space Lynx]

I recalled this question of yours earlier today - yes, I can confirm that the flickering happens on both G-sync Compatible and Freesync.

It would be interesting to see if a G-SYNC/G-SYNC Ultimate monitor is immune, but I have neither the need nor budget for one at the moment. Don't think there are any 32" IPS 1440p 165Hz panels that exist with dedicated G-SYNC, only VA, 60Hz, or 4K.

where are you getting flickering?

 

[Mussels]

I recalled this question of yours earlier today - yes, I can confirm that the flickering happens on both G-sync Compatible and Freesync.

It would be interesting to see if a G-SYNC/G-SYNC Ultimate monitor is immune, but I have neither the need nor budget for one at the moment. Don't think there are any 32" IPS 1440p 165Hz panels that exist with dedicated G-SYNC, only VA, 60Hz, or 4K.

the flickering is because VA Panels change brightness as refresh rates change, the only 'fix' is to use CRU and raise the minimum
I've gone through many many panels now and seen this too much for it to be anything else - well over a dozen of different monitors of mixed brands

It's such a PITA, my new LG has 48-60Hz and 40-60Hz - and both still show brightness changes. Why even bother?

Hell i even know why all the VA panels are curved now too, they have red shift at the edges and the only way to keep the colours even was to curve the displays - samsung push the voltages harder to get the high refresh rates, so they curve em even more to compensate...

 

[tabascosauz]

where are you getting flickering?

It always starts with Genshin, because it's the only game I play that is hardlocked to 60fps. It's a very high frequency flicker that only occurs in game (alt-tab to desktop and it's gone, alt-tab back and it's back), doesn't affect playability but a few minutes is enough to give me a massive headache.

Usually it goes away on its own within a few minutes, but it has to go away on its own. During that duration it will persist in any other game that I fire up

• Cannot be fixed by disabling/re-enabling Freesync
• Cannot be fixed by restarting the monitor
• Cannot be fixed by restarting the comp
• Cannot be fixed by restarting the game
• Cannot be fixed by CRU custom VRR range

the flickering is because VA Panels change brightness as refresh rates change, the only 'fix' is to use CRU and raise the minimum
I've gone through many many panels now and seen this too much for it to be anything else - well over a dozen of different monitors of mixed brands

It's such a PITA, my new LG has 48-60Hz and 40-60Hz - and both still show brightness changes. Why even bother?

Hell i even know why all the VA panels are curved now too, they have red shift at the edges and the only way to keep the colours even was to curve the displays - samsung push the voltages harder to get the high refresh rates, so they curve em even more to compensate...

I think we talked about this before. Neither of my monitors (M32Q and S2721DGF) are VA. Only M32Q has BFI, on or off doesn't make a difference.

CRU does not do anything. Both my monitors can go down to roughly 40Hz I think before they start crapping out. CRU does not make a difference because the actual framerate is nowhere near even the stock 48Hz lower bound. It's always pushing 60Hz.

It has mostly gone away since Windowed VRR became a thing in 22H2, but it was surprising to see that it's still lurking around the edges

 

[Space Lynx]

i have no idea, i have an all AMD system and have had no issue in-games like this. i enforce vsync always on and freesync on in amd drivers. thats all I do these days and haven't had any issues.

 

[Chrispy_]

Flickering Freesync/G-Sync(compatible) VRR is just something that seems to happen, caused by uneven frame delivery that swings wildly between max and min framerates of VESA VRR.

I must have had 20+ displays since Freesync was launched and even NVidia cards (once they added support for VESA VRR) have all flickered with brightness changes in some situations. The only native G-Sync monitor I ever had was an Acer Z35 and that wasn't immune to the brightness-change flicker though it was perhaps less pronounced than other models.

I always notice it in static or near-static content, so it feels to me like an application/kernel-mode WDM/protocol issue. Loading screens, menus, stuff that isn't necessarily animated or updating every frame, overlays, dashboards, etc. If I run the G-Sync pendulum test, AMD windmills test, or mess around with FPS caps in games at framerates well below the minimum refresh range of the monitor's VRR window, I never see brightness-induced flickering, which proves that LFC is working perfectly when given a relatively steady framerate.

If I had to guess, it feels like the underlying cause of the flickering is unchanging frames repeated; That could point the blame to Display Stream Compression, some Displayport or HDMI power-saving protocol/optimisation or some other special case in the VESA standard that handles repeats of the last frame's data - So right now for example, a game loading bar on my 240Hz panel causes flicker each and every time the bar moves, whilst the monitor (and Steam overlay) says 240Hz/240fps. Once in game, framerates of 35fps (0.1% lows) to 170fps are fine, and I don't see any flicker.

 

[tabascosauz]

@Chrispy_ interesting stuff to think about.

For the time being I don't think I will be seeing the flickering again because I am resorting to Win+Shift+arrowkeying Genshin onto my secondary S2721DGF fixed at 60Hz, due to Radeon driver issues. No Freesync flickering when monitor is down at 60Hz.

• 7900XT multi monitor idle power is still obscene, and so I must keep the S2721DGF at 60Hz in order to idle at 20-30W and not 85W
• Freesync M32Q has a godawful time with Genshin regardless of 60Hz or 165Hz, or VRR settings in Windows (G-sync Compatible M32Q is near-flawless)
• S2721DGF almost as choppy at 165Hz Freesync, but 60Hz is smooth and close to native 60Hz panel performance (very smooth)

Silver linings, ya know.........

 

[Mussels]

It always starts with Genshin, because it's the only game I play that is hardlocked to 60fps. It's a very high frequency flicker that only occurs in game (alt-tab to desktop and it's gone, alt-tab back and it's back), doesn't affect playability but a few minutes is enough to give me a massive headache.

Usually it goes away on its own within a few minutes, but it has to go away on its own. During that duration it will persist in any other game that I fire up

• Cannot be fixed by disabling/re-enabling Freesync
• Cannot be fixed by restarting the monitor
• Cannot be fixed by restarting the comp
• Cannot be fixed by restarting the game
• Cannot be fixed by CRU custom VRR range

I think we talked about this before. Neither of my monitors (M32Q and S2721DGF) are VA. Only M32Q has BFI, on or off doesn't make a difference.

CRU does not do anything. Both my monitors can go down to roughly 40Hz I think before they start crapping out. CRU does not make a difference because the actual framerate is nowhere near even the stock 48Hz lower bound. It's always pushing 60Hz.

It has mostly gone away since Windowed VRR became a thing in 22H2, but it was surprising to see that it's still lurking around the edges

Tried a frame rate cap to 58 or 59?

Both my displays flicker well inside their factory ranges
40-60? hah, more like 55-60

(or my other display that's 165hz, and needs to be changed to 60+, and even then it's visible sometimes)

 

[tabascosauz]

Tried a frame rate cap to 58 or 59?

Both my displays flicker well inside their factory ranges
40-60? hah, more like 55-60

(or my other display that's 165hz, and needs to be changed to 60+, and even then it's visible sometimes)

Not much point if it's just going to make for a shittier experience and has nothing to do with the GPU itself. The flicker is pretty rare these days in Win11, and doesn't happen now that I play the game specifically on my 60Hz side monitor

At one point I did try raising the Freesync lower bound and nothing changed

 

[Mussels]

Not much point if it's just going to make for a shittier experience and has nothing to do with the GPU itself. The flicker is pretty rare these days in Win11, and doesn't happen now that I play the game specifically on my 60Hz side monitor

At one point I did try raising the Freesync lower bound and nothing changed

I found what may be your problem just today
My LG monitor here has a fucky contrast option at 67

66 is fine, 68 is fine - but at 67 flickers as i change to or fromt it
can flick that contrast setting up and down just by one and watch the entire screens brightness flicker
It would also cause an issue like the samsung high refresh displays can get with scanline issues, where you can suddenly see a screendoor effect - i could drag around an explorer window a pixel or two, and the effect would come and go. Raise contrast by just one, and it was gone to never be seen again.

Right image has the typical 'rainbow' shaped banding of a camera lens and an LCD monitor phot, that's not visible in person. Note how the grey is darker - that's the difference when it flickers vs not

https://youtube.com/shorts/YnuifAQN_UU
(YT converted it to a "Short" and now i cant embed it)

What i noticed however, was that certain specific conditions triggered the same damn flicker using the display normally - both in 2D use and gaming

I discussed this with my brother who when calibrating his monitor found this same issue but on his brighness values - lowering his brightness might take 5 lumens off each step, but one setting jumped about 30 - and being either side of that setting could cause that same jump randomly during regular use depending on what was being displayed

 

[tabascosauz]

I found what may be your problem just today
My LG monitor here has a fucky contrast option at 67

66 is fine, 68 is fine - but at 67 flickers as i change to or fromt it
can flick that contrast setting up and down just by one and watch the entire screens brightness flicker
It would also cause an issue like the samsung high refresh displays can get with scanline issues, where you can suddenly see a screendoor effect - i could drag around an explorer window a pixel or two, and the effect would come and go. Raise contrast by just one, and it was gone to never be seen again.

Right image has the typical 'rainbow' shaped banding of a camera lens and an LCD monitor phot, that's not visible in person. Note how the grey is darker - that's the difference when it flickers vs no

https://youtube.com/shorts/YnuifAQN_UU
(YT converted it to a "Short" and now i cant embed it)

What i noticed however, was that certain specific conditions triggered the same damn flicker using the display normally - both in 2D use and gaming

I discussed this with my brother who when calibrating his monitor found this same issue but on his brighness values - lowering his brightness might take 5 lumens off each step, but one setting jumped about 30 - and being either side of that setting could cause that same jump randomly during regular use depending on what was being displayed

Interesting, but that's not it. Like I said, when flicker happens it only happens exclusively in game. Outside of games, where Freesync will not be active, all will be normal. I don't have any big irregular jumps in brightness or contrast on either panel.

 

[Mussels]

Interesting, but that's not it. Like I said, when flicker happens it only happens exclusively in game. Outside of games, where Freesync will not be active, all will be normal. I don't have any big irregular jumps in brightness or contrast on either panel.

All good - just an option. If its only freesync then its either the ranges causing a brightness shift, or it's when windows changes between exclusive fullscreen and borderless fullscreen - which is chaotic in 11 at times with the new changes

 

[tabascosauz]

Talking about Radeon drivers always hurts, because the hard product is well-built. The XT reference PCB is stout enough that all the AIBs are still using some variation of it. Compare the 4070 Ti PCBs - they look like friggin 3060 Tis.

Spent 29 days with a 7900XT. 3 driver versions, 22.12.2, 23.1.1, 23.1.2. Can't tell me I didn't give Radeon a fair chance.

• Multi monitor idle power consumption (still acknowledged and unfixed on release notes), probably will never be fixed
• Multi monitor stutter while video playback (still acknowledged and unfixed on release notes)
• The oscillating core/VRAM clock/power bug during video playback that I reported and collected all that data for
• Multi monitor stutter while in-game and simultaneously displaying anything with a changing picture anywhere else (still acknowledged and unfixed on release notes)
• Incredible stuttering due to VRAM downclocking while in-game
• Insane framepacing issues in MW19 due to Anti-Lag completely incompatible with the game

Somehow in my time with the 7900XT, all games were always slow to launch. 5800X3D performed just fine, nothing wrong with the SSDs, 7900XT had the benefit of a completely clean Windows install made just for it. Swapped in the 4070 Ti and app launches went right back to being lightning fast. Bizarre. Maybe Radeon drivers were interfering with AM4 chipset drivers in some way.

Yes, I hate having to give up 20GB VRAM. Yes, I hate the fact that the memory subsystem is a literal downgrade from 3070 Ti. Yes, I hate not having a super compact card. Yes, I don't like 12VHPWR.

But I also LIKE not having to gimp or turn off my own monitors, not doubling my idle draw from the wall, fan stop that actually works, VRAM that doesn't idle at 60C and game at 90C, and a card that doesn't make me babysit and troubleshoot it all day long.

Maybe one day, eventually, Radeon Technologies Group will come under [actually] new management.

 

[freeagent]

A for effort brotha. You tried.

System looks really nice, Id hit it

 

[tabascosauz]

A for effort brotha. You tried.

System looks really nice, Id hit it

The way I see it, with the amount of time and effort we put into OC and testing, we at the very least deserve a company that at least gives us back half that much in effort. Who knows, future AMD might

 

[Mussels]

Incredible stuttering due to VRAM downclocking while in-game

That could be related to the discord bug nvidia has right now, or possibly overheating VRAM - which happened to a loooooot of 30 series cards as well, it only takes one VRAM thermal pad out of place for things to get weird there (Each VRAM module has an internal temp sensor, but arent exposed to the user - 100% fan speed was the usual key clue on Nvidia)

 

[Mussels]

Somehow in my time with the 7900XT, all games were always slow to launch.

That ones fascinating. DirectStorage aint out yet, and in theory it shouldnt be any slower if it has the same PCI-E bandwidth to load up the VRAM
I dont have any AMD GPU's on hand to test, but if i do get one i'll happily try and find out (So far i've seen no changes between 9 10 and 30 series Nvidia when my ITX rig died and parts got moved, so it's not a VRAM amount/age thing)

Might tie in with your VRAM downclocking issues (especially if triggered by the multi monitor problems - they clock em up to avoid issues, get backlash on the power, downclock, get backlash for the issues, etc)
Nvidia weren't immune to those issues either, they still have HDMI 2.1 problems galore and seizure inducing flickers with multi monitor and any of their scaling settings enabled