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AMD's Ryzen CPU Series will Need Modern Linux Kernel for Proper Support

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Laptop-mode-tools was among things that got me over 3h of battery life. Without them it drained twice as fast.
I don't know the current situation, but late kernel 2.6 (so in this decade!!!) didn't even have CPU frequency scaling tuned on by default.
You had to teach the PC, that its CPU can run something below max. Happily, that was simple: just open the terminal...
Well, I know something on the state of the art. Although I haven't touched 2.x, I've been running Linux since kernel 3.5. Ubuntu was my first distribution (surprise).

CPU frequency auto-scaling was already present.

Cpufrequtils
, a very straightforward command line tool, was also there for those who wanted to clock their laptop CPU themselves. Don't be terrified just yet, there were GUI's too.

Oh, Ubuntu already drained power slower than Windows on my PC at the time, regardless of laptop-mode-tools:

All I did was load proprietary video drivers with the additional drivers GUI. *buntus and several other distributions offer such option by default, you don't even have to download anything from the manufacturer website or use the command line. MS took ages to start detecting and delivering drivers this way, yet it's really messy.

Do you use generic video drivers on Windows? Probably not.

As a side note, generic Linux drivers are unquestionably better than generic MS trash (developed by MS itself, not the rebranded ones sourced from manufacturers).

I remember setting up Arch Linux on my laptop for the first time. It took me a whole weekend (around 20h) to reach a state at which taking the laptop out seemed reasonable.
Sure, there are more user-friendly distros - I was prepared for the extra work, but I wasn't prepared for the amount of it. I mean: just how basic a "basic Linux" can be and how unwilling it would be to cooperate with my PC.
It was meant to be an adventure that would teach me a lot about Linux. And it was, but together with the OS-knowledge came a very strong impression that I don't want to do that again. Ever.
[I had prepared a "wrong hole" analogy here, but as some people could be underage, I decided to present it only to my girlfriend. You'll find out yourself one day.]
Info you don't manage to absorb/retain properly doesn't turn into knowledge (to yourself).

Well, the learning curve isn't always steep. It took me about 3 hours to set up Arch at first as I was already familiar with the basics. Now I can happily perform a vanilla Arch install within an hour or so. Half an hour when I'm inspired.

Anyway, just go for Antergos when you're not in the mood to install Arch properly. It's just a graphical installer for Arch, so you get the real thing (Arch purists would kill me now hah). Manjaro is even more simplified, although it's more of a derivative. You can get user-friendly distros installed at least 4x faster than W10.

Honestly, should a feature not be included in the "basic Linux" just because it's not essential (as in: only 99% of people use it), when making it work takes these 99% of people around an hour (if they're pretty tech-savvy and lucky)?
I rather assume you didn't read my posts thoroughly as you should understand at least part of what you're trying to imply.

You do realize most amateur users stick with Ubuntu and its derivatives (Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Mint etc), right?

As mentioned:

You don't likely run a standalone kernel [that "basic linux" of yours] or an OS built from scratch for that matter, you most probably run a heavily maintained OS [like Arch, Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu. Most of those distributions will probably add support for Ryzen to their custom kernels if Kernel.org weirdly decides not to backport it widely. Arch and other rolling distros get regular upgrades close to the latest kernel, so they're fine].

You don't seem to be so familiar with how popular distros updates work in detail, there's nothing wrong to it as long as you don't spread misinformation or FUD. This thread is based on rumors. Facts weren't properly checked, sources are unclear, alleged decisions can change etc.

We're dealing with guesswork right now.

And it's all great with doing researches: checking manuals and asking on forums.... if you have access to Internet. But if you don't? At that point I only had 1 PC at home (and didn't have a smartphone). I remember going to my neighbours and printing some pages with instructions how to setup WiFi. And then I used a text-web-browser, to setup X...
Seriously, connecting to a WiFi network is not rocket science and not something that only 1 in 1000 Linux users need. It should be among priorities, but even on very popular distros (like Debian) it's not as polished and stable as on Windows. Why?!
Don't quit Ubuntu when you're a Linux dummy. Zorin smiles at you. Keep your wifi happy effortlessly.

Worry not. Debian is not nearly as popular as its bastard child, Ubuntu, at least when it comes to home users. I bet more than 1 in 1000 Linux users have great wifi...

Elaborating on the topic, some wifi manufacturers (namely Broadcom) don't want to cooperate with the Linux project. Vanilla Debian only features FOSS drivers due to its philosophy. It's easy to get wifi working anyway, lspci and aptitude are your friends.

Hey... Wireless more polished on Windows? Seriously? How many windows PCs with wireless issues have you serviced? K then.

It's been long, very long since I've last had wireless issues on Linux. Can't say the same about Windows (try enabling and establishing 1000+ connections on a torrent client).

Next you say Windows is also known for its serious scalability & stability in networking, parallel computing and raw processing power hah...

No, it won't. You clearly haven't checked this. Windows turns out to be better in general: partly because it is designed with laptops in mind (so this is prioritized from the start) and partly because the drivers are possibly much better. I think we all agree: hardware manufacturers actually care about Windows/OSX users, while it's a mixed bag with Linux.

It seems that the availability and quality of Linux drivers is often a result of having a Linux geek among employees who, at some point, we'll say that "hey, we don't support Linux!" and the management (after saying "so what?") will let him write a driver after hours.

Again, as I said:

My wife runs Manjaro on her old core 2 duo laptop with a nearly dead battery, yet it surprisingly works for more than half an hour unplugged, whereas Windows dies almost immediately upon a cold boot.

Oh, I forgot to mention: she's using free drivers.

I run newer hardware and the results aren't so different. W10 will last at least half an hour less on battery power. All I need is proprietary video drivers.

W10 doesn't compare to lightweight Linux distributions power-wise, champ.

Updated power efficiency challenge for MS lovers: let youtube play HD videos on Windows until your laptop runs out of juice. Then do it on Lubuntu or Manjaro, same videos, proprietary GPU drivers loaded if available, just like you did on Windows. Let us know the results.
 
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I knew you'd talk about horror stories from eons past. Yes, Linux was hard back then. I even gave up on Mandrake back in 2001 because I couldn't get a driver for my 56k modem (though eveything else was fine, even my Voodoo Banshee's driver). But then, I could equally tell you horror stories about Windows (I was running Windows 98 back then). But hey, water under the bridge. Things have a changed a lot since. You can't complain about the current state of affairs for issues that no longer exist, nor have any consequence (besides any potential mental trauma).

Nope, no "eons past". While I started using Linux in the "dark ages" (~2000), the experiences I'm talking about are with a notebook from 2007 (HP 6510b). It even has a page on Arch wiki that assures you that basically almost everything works perfectly: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HP_Compaq_6510b
You can check article's history - there were a few more issues some time ago, that were since fixed by new kernels and so on.
That said, even when you follow the suggested setup and discover it's not that great, there are multiple discussions on how to fix things.
Despite all that, I've found the final quality below a desirable level.

I mean: it's not only about the time it takes to setup Linux in a way that I can concentrate on actual usage, not OS administration. It's also about the time spent on regular "research", tinkering, the "just open the terminal..." situations and so on.
To me Windows is simply more practical, because it's simpler. Setup takes a few hours (with software and so on), but from that moment the OS is just something that runs behind the software you need.
Let's be honest: most Windows users don't even know what OS is or does. For them "Windows" is basically a desktop they see and the Start menu. Many don't know how to use the Control Panel.
Sure, occasionally they'll need assistance if something goes really wrong, but for most of the time they can use Windows easily - including adding new peripherals and software.
This shows just how beautifully designed Windows is - as a mostly invisible tool running in the background of what actually matters.
Almost everything just works out of box. I value that highly.

That said, I'm sure my opinion would have been different 10 years ago. I actually liked tinkering, terminals and so on.
Back then I also thought a decent knowledge of Linux might be of some use career-wise and I think I got to a decent level in the ~10 years of using Linux as a primary OS (and 17 totally).
In the end it turned out I had better used that time learning Excel, but whatever... :).

I'm also sure that some of the issues I had with Linux were possible to fix (or fixed in future kernels). It's just that fixing issues in Linux (as educative as it is) was not the reason why I used Linux in the first place (or PC in general). I found it too time consuming and gave up. :)
 
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Well, I know something on the state of the art. Although I haven't touched 2.x, I've been running Linux since kernel 3.5. Ubuntu was my first distribution (surprise).

3.5 is mid 2012, so basically you've started using Linux when I moved to Windows as my primary OS. I've only used it occasionally in dual-boot or as VM since then (always getting to an impression that it's still not good enough).
I've actually dumped the last Linux VM on 25th June 2016 - I know the exact date because I've posted this on Facebook, which triggered a swarm of "likes" and "good for you" comments (3/4 of my friends on FB are graduates of computer science, math or physics - I guess the rest didn't get what the post is about :D).

Do you use generic video drivers on Windows? Probably not.

Obviously, I do. I never had a dGPU on my Linux machines and I find the Intel GMA driver just a waste of 20 or so MB RAM. :)

As a side note, generic Linux drivers are unquestionably better than generic MS trash (developed by MS itself, not the rebranded ones sourced from manufacturers).
How do you evaluate that? I mean: I don't really care about GPU driver as long as it can output a signal in proper resolution and quality (on a IGP machine, obviously).
Maybe there are some performance differences with dGPU and gaming, but I didn't have an opportunity to test that.

Well, the learning curve isn't always steep. It took me about 3 hours to set up Arch at first as I was already familiar with the basics. Now I can happily perform a vanilla Arch install within an hour or so. Half an hour when I'm inspired.
And that's great if you're an administrator in a Linux-based organization or something like that.
I guess the total number of times I've setup Linux is somewhere around 50 and more than half of that was on VMs.

Back in the day (until XP), Windows was fairly messy, so I used to reinstall it regularly (once a year at least). It's no longer true. From Windows 7 onward I basically install a system on a new PC and use it till the end. I have 3 PCs: one on Windows 8.1 (soon 10) and 2 on W10 already. Honestly, their all maintenance-free.
The only issue is that one of the machines is W10 Home. I seldom use it (traveling etc), so I have to run it a bit earlier to get through the automatic updates. :)

Anyway, just go for Antergos when you're not in the mood to install Arch properly. It's just a graphical installer for Arch, so you get the real thing (Arch purists would kill me now hah). Manjaro is even more simplified, although it's more of a derivative. You can get user-friendly distros installed at least 4x faster than W10.

Again, while a 2-day fight with Arch was a big issue, what's the actual gain of "installed at least 4x faster than W10"?
Setup of W10 (including software I use) takes maybe 2-4 hours. And I do it maybe once a year.
If I was an admin at a large company (having to setup/fix few PCs a day), I might consider this important, but then I almost surely wouldn't be able to choose the OS. :)

Hey... Wireless more polished on Windows? Seriously? How many windows PCs with wireless issues have you serviced? K then.

How is that important at all? I'm talking about a user experience - not administration. With Linux you need some administrator skills (maybe now less than 10 years ago), but with Windows you don't. Linux is easier to take care of, but not to use.
Windows WiFi connections just work. Most users don't care how.

It's been long, very long since I've last had wireless issues on Linux. Can't say the same about Windows (try enabling and establishing 1000+ connections on a torrent client).

OMG. Who needs 1000+ connections on torrent?
Try doing a trouble-free MS Office setup on Linux (with functioning links between the apps and stable Excel and Access database connections).

Maybe some fresh, real-life example? :D
We bought a printer, but I didn't have time to setup it for the last few days. My girlfriend did it yesterday (it took her half an hour - from starting the driver download to printing a test page).
It's a Canon MG5750. She connected it with Windows via a WiFi router, installed all the Canon software (there's really a lot of it!), checked ink levels and so on. All using a typical comic-style instruction sheet.

And it seems she's not a certified Windows administrator or a Canon consultant. She's a philologist. She doesn't even know what a file extension is (she has them hidden), how a computer network works ("IP?"), what's a terminal and so on.

As for the Canon itself - it's (of course) not supported officially in Linux, so all the nice software is already gone. Generally speaking, this is what Linux and Canon users have to live with:
http://www.canon-europe.com/support/consumer_products/operating_system_information/#LIX

Nevertheless, I've just looked for some Linux tutorials for similar printers and this one looks close enough:
http://linux.wikia.com/wiki/Getting_Canon_PIXMA_to_work_on_Linux
Would this work? I don't know. But I know she would stumble already on:
"1) Execute the commands below in a terminal"

BTW: according to the information at the end, a printer on standby "does not wake up when printing from Linux". Great.
 

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Setup of W10 (including software I use) takes maybe 2-4 hours. And I do it maybe once a year.
I can install Ubuntu on my machine from a USB 3.0 flash drive in about 30 minutes, give it another 30 minutes to pull the latest updates and to get AMDGPU-Pro installed. Honestly, Windows 10 takes about the same amount of time to install so, I'd call that a non-issue. I had stopped using Windows 10 after it had bricked my installation twice due to Windows randomly deciding it was a good idea to install updates and failing in the process. My system being stable is far more important when I use it for work. The only issue I've experienced with Ubuntu 16.04 LTS is a power management issue in DPM with respect to dynamic GPU clock scaling (visual corruption when core clock drops too low.) An issue that would probably go away if I used 16.10 since it appears to mainly be an issue with the 4.4 kernel.
Windows WiFi connections just work. Most users don't care how.
They just work in Linux too so long as the driver is already installed. Fighting with wi-fi drivers sucks in Windows and Linux. Neither has an advantage in this respect.
Maybe some fresh, real-life example? :D
We bought a printer, but I didn't have time to setup it for the last few days. My girlfriend did it yesterday (it took her half an hour - from starting the driver download to printing a test page).
It's a Canon MG5750. She connected it with Windows via a WiFi router, installed all the Canon software (there's really a lot of it!), checked ink levels and so on. All using a typical comic-style instruction sheet.
I bought an HP Deskjet 3050a some time ago and both wireless printing and scanning worked out of the box in Linux, no special software other than a single application to handle scanning (no additional drivers.) In Windows I had to install an entire suite of software just to connect to the device.

People whine about Linux not being easy to use but, if you use it every day for months, it becomes second-nature just like Windows does after you use it for months as well.

tl;dr: I use Ubuntu exclusively now and I can do just about everything I could on Windows. The only exception is the game selection which isn't a primary concern.
 
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Nope, no "eons past". While I started using Linux in the "dark ages" (~2000), the experiences I'm talking about are with a notebook from 2007 (HP 6510b). It even has a page on Arch wiki that assures you that basically almost everything works perfectly: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HP_Compaq_6510b

I'm sorry, but "should work" doesn't mean the same thing as "almost everything works perfectly." I'm certain that your girlfriend would agree that they differ in meaning. Anyway, what I understand from that page myself is: the hardware is supported.

You can check article's history - there were a few more issues some time ago, that were since fixed by new kernels and so on.
That said, even when you follow the suggested setup and discover it's not that great, there are multiple discussions on how to fix things.
Despite all that, I've found the final quality below a desirable level.

So, what exactly wasn't that great or just plain didn't work?

I mean: it's not only about the time it takes to setup Linux in a way that I can concentrate on actual usage, not OS administration. It's also about the time spent on regular "research", tinkering, the "just open the terminal..." situations and so on.

To me Windows is simply more practical, because it's simpler. Setup takes a few hours (with software and so on), but from that moment the OS is just something that runs behind the software you need.
The only times I've tinkered with Linux with my computers is because I was curious and wanted to try new stuff (linux-phc, changing parameters in the GRUB, GPU driver or power management config files). Basically, stuff that I had done under Windows when I was curious and wanted to learn new things.
I remember one computer of mine not wanting to boot a live Ubuntu, but then, that DFI motherboard was just horribly unstable, regardless of the OS. I waited until it died and had no issues installing Ubuntu with a Gigabyte motherboard (the rest of the hardware being the same).

I've only had actual Ubuntu issues with the AMD drivers back then, because I refused to use the open source drivers as they were subpar to me (I would test games from time to time to see how well they performed). But I was being stubborn. Had I used the open source drivers, I wouldn't have issues after updating xorg. On the other hand, I could also argue that people who upgraded to Windows 10 (and, sometimes, forced to upgrade; we all know the story) also had issues at times. I got a relative who couldn't play Minecraft because the default driver upon installation wasn't working properly. So, I had to look up the issue and download another driver. Manually. They didn't know how to do that.

Back when I installed Windows 7, the default WDM driver for my (now defunct) nvidia 8800 GTS (G80) only included OpenGL 1.1, meaning anyone not computer literate would've struggled to use app sthat use more recent versions of OpenGL.

But wait, there's more! I've just recalled how I struggled to reinstall Windows XP on a friend's older relative's laptop (XP had been chosen because that's what the user was used to). It was not possible, because the SATA controller was a RAID controller (despite there being room only for one HDD in said laptop) and XP asked for drivers during setup. Me being the conscientious type, I had a USB floppy disk drive lying around, so I did what I had to do: use a floppy disk (that was around 2011 or 2012) along with DOS to install the damn thing. Never worked in the end, because, despite pointing towards the file it requested, it kept asking for the same file forever. Tried to do the same thing with a USB thumbdrive to no avail.

tl;dr: I just installed Windows 7 on that laptop.

Here's a last one: I've had a client call me because his wifi wouldn't turn on. Turns out switching the wifi off in the wifi app (ugh, I hate it when manufacturers install dozens of useless apps) would turn it off in the BIOS, but turning it back on required to reboot, enter the BIOS and activate it there. Which the client didn't know how to do.

So yeah, I've had my own share of "time wasters" under Windows, as you can see.

Let's be honest: most Windows users don't even know what OS is or does. For them "Windows" is basically a desktop they see and the Start menu. Many don't know how to use the Control Panel.
It's worse than this: most users don't even know how to use the keyboard. "Nuuuh, shortcuts are too complicated, I can never memorize them." Of course they can't, since they never use said shortcuts. Oh, and let's not forget that most people I've dealt with can't differentiate the "CAPS lock" and "Shift" keys (probably language related in this case, though it still shows their level of incompetence).

But anyway, that's a bad analogy. It's like saying manual cars suck because most Americans don't know how to use them — since they're more complicated than the automatic type.

Linux gives you freedom to tinker, but in no way it is a requirement; evidence of that being people whom I've suggested to use Linux (usually a matter of their machine being old and Linux costing zero euros) and they had nothing to complain about. All they needed was to know where the file explorer, web browser and office suite icons are. I even told some of them not to bother with updates and that I'll deal with those when I visit them, which has sometimes been several months apart. And the end result was smooth updates.

Sure, occasionally they'll need assistance if something goes really wrong, but for most of the time they can use Windows easily - including adding new peripherals and software.
This shows just how beautifully designed Windows is - as a mostly invisible tool running in the background of what actually matters.
Almost everything just works out of box. I value that highly.
You've misspelled "Windows is a gas factory that works most of the time because of its huge weight on the market." Of course making several, more or less complete ACPI tables for each version of Windows or so in the BIOS is going to give Windows an edge. How is Linux supposed to work properly when manufacturers don't give it basic info for it to work, or downright don't follow standards?


That said, I'm sure my opinion would have been different 10 years ago. I actually liked tinkering, terminals and so on.
Back then I also thought a decent knowledge of Linux might be of some use career-wise and I think I got to a decent level in the ~10 years of using Linux as a primary OS (and 17 totally).
In the end it turned out I had better used that time learning Excel, but whatever... :).

I'm also sure that some of the issues I had with Linux were possible to fix (or fixed in future kernels). It's just that fixing issues in Linux (as educative as it is) was not the reason why I used Linux in the first place (or PC in general). I found it too time consuming and gave up. :)
Life isn't a one way path. You had several opportunities and chose to ditch Linux to use your time differently. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think it's simply unfair to blame Linux for lacking drivers when that's the manufacturer's job.


Maybe some fresh, real-life example? :D
We bought a printer, but I didn't have time to setup it for the last few days. My girlfriend did it yesterday (it took her half an hour - from starting the driver download to printing a test page).
It's a Canon MG5750. She connected it with Windows via a WiFi router, installed all the Canon software (there's really a lot of it!), checked ink levels and so on. All using a typical comic-style instruction sheet.

And it seems she's not a certified Windows administrator or a Canon consultant. She's a philologist. She doesn't even know what a file extension is (she has them hidden), how a computer network works ("IP?"), what's a terminal and so on.

As for the Canon itself - it's (of course) not supported officially in Linux, so all the nice software is already gone. Generally speaking, this is what Linux and Canon users have to live with:
http://www.canon-europe.com/support/consumer_products/operating_system_information/#LIX

Nevertheless, I've just looked for some Linux tutorials for similar printers and this one looks close enough:
http://linux.wikia.com/wiki/Getting_Canon_PIXMA_to_work_on_Linux
Would this work? I don't know. But I know she would stumble already on:
"1) Execute the commands below in a terminal"

BTW: according to the information at the end, a printer on standby "does not wake up when printing from Linux". Great.
So you went ahead and bought a printer without knowing about its Linux support? Do yourself a favor and get an HP. If the default printer manager app doesn't cut it, there's always HPLIP. Weird how you didn't pick HP despite those 10 years of Linux as your primary OS, huh.

Again, you can't blame Linux for having a non trivial installation process when the manufacturer has done zero. Actually, it's a win for the Linux community, because they're the ones helping. Tell me how helpful Microsoft forums are when you've got unsupported hardware or a non trivial Windows issue...

[EDIT] Spelling and grammar
 
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Every time I had a problem (which was often), people started with "And then you open terminal and..." NO!
because depending on what it is, it can be a single paste & you're done? you keep popping up with these childish remarks every few weeks... you've NEVER seen anyone mention writing a regsvr32 in the windows run box? using cmd to stop/start services rather than start>services>scroll>click>change option>click>close...

half the time those terminal commands have a gui equivalent, but lots of sites & people keep reposting a command they heard from somewhere

are you one to say pc game menus should always have mouse support even though it's faster to push the up arrow to rollover to the bottom quit button compared to moving your cursor down thousands of pixels?

gui is numba wan, yeah right, you use what's fastest & i am saying that as someone that prefers gui! i keep my hand on the mouse & use its thumb to hit the keypad enter button, that's fast... but sometimes typing a command is faster (as does caring about what went wrong & why, dont you dig deep into windows when it's being irritating? i sure do)

I've already written about this in the thread. Yes, Windows is more GUI-dependent, but the whole package works better than X Window, so who am I to criticize? :)

Whether or not this is the case here, we know that newer Linux kernels increase PC power consumption - even though there is really no reason for that to happen. End of story.
i'm going to have to nitpick...

x window system is garbage & an architecture from the 90s, but it sounds like you dont know that wayland exists? x doesnt have to do with the kernel, or power states, or anything like that... maybe the gpu driver in some form, certainly nothing to do with terminals

i was saying that 'linux' doesnt force you onto different OS platforms just to get a few kernel updates (that can affect power or new hardware support or new experience systems), obviously windows has a lot of backwards compatibility, but right now a bunch of GFWL games dont work on modern windows, right? in which case you need to use an older windows... if the hardware has drivers for it, while 'linux' seems to avoid brick wall regressions like these

citation needed for newer kernels increasing power consumption... END OF STORY (wtf!?) so it seems clear you're ignoring linux news, how intel turbo boost modes were added, that clearlinux exists which is intel's own OS optimized only for intel cpus (with benchmarks to prove it), how power states change, how performance changes, gee... old stories arent relevant anymore
 
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I'm sorry, but "should work" doesn't mean the same thing as "almost everything works perfectly." I'm certain that your girlfriend would agree that they differ in meaning. Anyway, what I understand from that page myself is: the hardware is supported.

What I understand under "is supported" is: companies make stuff to be compatible with Windows. Everything works. All of functions, all of software.
On Linux it's more like "You can scan and print, don't you? It's community-made and free - what do you expect?!".

Think about it: the price of each peripheral you buy includes a premium for software and functions that are not available to Linux user. Does it change anything about our impression of Linux being free compared to Windows? :)

So, what exactly wasn't that great or just plain didn't work?

1) the battery life was lacking (yes, yes - I know you're all sure that Linux has better energy efficiency, but it really wasn't true in my case - despite doing everything I could "research"),
2) few touch-actuated keys didn't work properly,
3) suspending/hibernation didn't work (a known issue, so I found some solutions online),
4) ... but WiFi didn't wake up after hibernation,
5) fn-key combination weren't working (I had to map them - there goes the "30 min" setup...),
6) the right edge of the touchpad had a scrolling function, which wasn't supported on Linux
and possibly some more I don't remember.

Some issues were solved by future kernels/drivers.

I have to add: everything works beautifully on W10 - even though this is a 10-year-old notebook and the official support ended with W7.

So yeah, I've had my own share of "time wasters" under Windows, as you can see.
But, if I understand correctly, this is your work (or part of it) - supporting clients. Right?

I'm not an admin nor anything similar.
As mentioned earlier: at some point I valued that highly career-wise. But even when I think about my studies (Physics, so Linux is ubiquitous), the handicap of being Linux-fluent was actually really tiny: I got a max score for the computer science course without any studying, I landed a date for helping with LaTeX and... that's possibly all.

It's worse than this: most users don't even know how to use the keyboard. "Nuuuh, shortcuts are too complicated, I can never memorize them." Of course they can't, since they never use said shortcuts. Oh, and let's not forget that most people I've dealt with can't differentiate the "CAPS lock" and "Shift" keys (probably language related in this case, though it still shows their level of incompetence).

True. Most people only use ctrl+{cxv}. Apple clearly noticed that - the touch stripe in latest MacBook is a clear sign of the times. :)

Honestly, this is a tiny problem comparing to what we're facing now, when many teenagers don't use a physical keyboard on a daily basis and have grown up with a smartphone.
Even if Linux jumps on the touch-era train (a few distros tried - Ubuntu for example), the occasional need to write a command in a terminal will be just a horror story.

But anyway, that's a bad analogy. It's like saying manual cars suck because most Americans don't know how to use them — since they're more complicated than the automatic type.

OT:
But the Americans are just so right! Automatic transmission is much easier to use, also being less stressing physically. Sure, from the European point of view (mine in particular) - driving a car is not as pleasant as with manual (as an experience).
Think about the consequences. We're at the edge of autonomous car revolution and the Americans are like "oh yeah!", but Europeans are skeptical. We were against someone/something deciding what gear we're in, so accepting that now it will also choose anything else (including the path) is very difficult to accept. But this is the future and Americans (thanks to years of living with sh.tty ATs) are much better prepared for it.

And similarly, Windows and Mac communities are better prepared for the future of consumer computing, which is not about opening terminals, but rather about telling (in the actual sense) your PC what you want.

There's nothing wrong with that, but I think it's simply unfair to blame Linux for lacking drivers when that's the manufacturer's job.

Of course it's Linux fault (the community to be precise).
Peripherals' manufacturers don't support Linux, because they have no business in it. They're not making money on this user group.
Linux is not trying to gain market share (to compete with Windows) nor attract the "pay and demand" user group, that often chooses Apple.
IMO this won't change, ever.

But all things consider, if I was asked to point just one thing that's stopping Linux from becoming a mainstream OS, the answer is obvious and hasn't changed for 2 decades: it's the lack of MS Office support - IMO something that Linux community isn't really trying to achieve (wine simply doesn't work properly).
But that's the thing... I'm not sure if Linux community is interested in becoming "mainstream" in any way. :)

So you went ahead and bought a printer without knowing about its Linux support? Do yourself a favor and get an HP. If the default printer manager app doesn't cut it, there's always HPLIP. Weird how you didn't pick HP despite those 10 years of Linux as your primary OS, huh.

Exactly! And it works! Isn't that great?
I didn't have to care about Linux support, I didn't have to research and so on.
I could concentrate on more important things: quality, efficiency, speed, looks. I was not limited by my own choice of using a niche system.

And it's not like Canon is lazy on OS support or software: the printer supports every Windows since XP (both 32 and 64-bit), all macOS since 2011, Android and iOS. It can also connect directly with cloud services (I like this a lot). And the bundled software looks pretty great (as expected: Canon is good at software).

Again, you can't blame Linux for having a non trivial installation process when the manufacturer has done zero. Actually, it's a win for the Linux community, because they're the ones helping. Tell me how helpful Microsoft forums are when you've got unsupported hardware or a non trivial Windows issue...

Now you're just looking for a problem to your solution.
Windows users don't have to rely on community. They can ask Microsoft or the PC vendor (if it's not a custom home-built model, this is a big win especially for laptops). This is the great thing about a product having a manufacturer (that is responsible for the quality).

But the precise answer is: I try the official MS documentation/forums (e.g. MSDN is excellent) and if that doesn't help, I usually find the answer on superuser.com.

And BTW: the last time I had a piece of hardware incompatible with Windows was 17 years ago: Windows 2000 didn't support my old scanner. Since then it's all just "plug and play". :)
 
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because depending on what it is, it can be a single paste & you're done? you keep popping up with these childish remarks every few weeks... you've NEVER seen anyone mention writing a regsvr32 in the windows run box? using cmd to stop/start services rather than start>services>scroll>click>change option>click>close...

half the time those terminal commands have a gui equivalent, but lots of sites & people keep reposting a command they heard from somewhere

are you one to say pc game menus should always have mouse support even though it's faster to push the up arrow to rollover to the bottom quit button compared to moving your cursor down thousands of pixels?

gui is numba wan, yeah right, you use what's fastest & i am saying that as someone that prefers gui! i keep my hand on the mouse & use its thumb to hit the keypad enter button, that's fast... but sometimes typing a command is faster (as does caring about what went wrong & why, dont you dig deep into windows when it's being irritating? i sure do)


i'm going to have to nitpick...

x window system is garbage & an architecture from the 90s, but it sounds like you dont know that wayland exists? x doesnt have to do with the kernel, or power states, or anything like that... maybe the gpu driver in some form, certainly nothing to do with terminals

i was saying that 'linux' doesnt force you onto different OS platforms just to get a few kernel updates (that can affect power or new hardware support or new experience systems), obviously windows has a lot of backwards compatibility, but right now a bunch of GFWL games dont work on modern windows, right? in which case you need to use an older windows... if the hardware has drivers for it, while 'linux' seems to avoid brick wall regressions like these

citation needed for newer kernels increasing power consumption... END OF STORY (wtf!?) so it seems clear you're ignoring linux news, how intel turbo boost modes were added, that clearlinux exists which is intel's own OS optimized only for intel cpus (with benchmarks to prove it), how power states change, how performance changes, gee... old stories arent relevant anymore


Linux is clumsy, unnecessarily divided platform with pretty much zero common standards. That's the main reason it never took off and never will. And you people endlessly defending it on all ends are not helping it to thrive. The sooner you people realize that, the sooner Linux will become a viable option for the masses. If Linux had distros hierarchy like Android does, it would probably already be predominantly used by people and Microsoft would be having hard time pushing their stuff. Vanilla Linux with always the latest kernel and stuff guaranteed to work and have drivers, even 3rd party closed sourced ones. Then you can make 700 trillion distros from that and jerk around with them if you want, but users would always be able to fallback to that vanilla version that just works. Instead, we have 700 trillion different distros with NO vanilla from the get go to fall back to. And that's why shit never works as it should.

And giving GFWL as any sort of example is just silly. If anything, it just backs me up. Granulating and dividing things NEVER WORKS. It's why GFWL got killed, because it divided developers, gamers and games. Guess what all those 700 trillion Linux distros are doing to Linux as a whole? Yeah, the same thing...
 
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3.5 is mid 2012, so basically you've started using Linux when I moved to Windows as my primary OS. I've only used it occasionally in dual-boot or as VM since then (always getting to an impression that it's still not good enough).
I've actually dumped the last Linux VM on 25th June 2016 - I know the exact date because I've posted this on Facebook, which triggered a swarm of "likes" and "good for you" comments (3/4 of my friends on FB are graduates of computer science, math or physics - I guess the rest didn't get what the post is about :D).
Cool story, bro.

Obviously, I do [use generic MS drivers]. I never had a dGPU on my Linux machines and I find the Intel GMA driver just a waste of 20 or so MB RAM. :)
Then you use iGPU drivers "by MS" actually sourced from manufacturers without change to device functionality code.

Video drivers exclusively developed by MS are utter trash.

How do you evaluate that? I mean: I don't really care about GPU driver as long as it can output a signal in proper resolution and quality (on a IGP machine, obviously).
Maybe there are some performance differences with dGPU and gaming, but I didn't have an opportunity to test that.
When I can watch a 1 min, 29.97 FPS, 480p video and the frame drop count returns less than 300, for instance. Generic Linux graphics drivers tend to have decent 2D performance nowadays. I don't often use them myself but a lot of people I know do - I "converted" many into Linux users. http://v.ht/LiNux

Linux often gets sources from manufacturers but FOSS drivers functionality code is actively managed/improved by kernel.org (main linux project) developers. Many drivers have been written from scratch though.

Judging from history/its very foundation, I bet MS doesn't do too much more than packaging whatever it gets from manufacturers into driver updates, *.msi and the likes.

And that's great if you're an administrator in a Linux-based organization or something like that.
Also good for a general understanding of how operating systems work in great detail as Arch is remarkably well structured.

I guess the total number of times I've setup Linux is somewhere around 50 and more than half of that was on VMs.

Back in the day (until XP), Windows was fairly messy, so I used to reinstall it regularly (once a year at least). It's no longer true. From Windows 7 onward I basically install a system on a new PC and use it till the end. I have 3 PCs: one on Windows 8.1 (soon 10) and 2 on W10 already. Honestly, their all maintenance-free.
The only issue is that one of the machines is W10 Home. I seldom use it (traveling etc), so I have to run it a bit earlier to get through the automatic updates. :)
Good for you.

Still I "think" (actually know for a fact) that Windows is messy and gets messier/slower as you use it. Windows servers need somewhat regular reboots and Windows PCs need way more than that overall, otherwise major features such as these wouldn't have to come into existence:

http://v.ht/refreshORreset
http://v.ht/w10crp

Good that they're there though. I'm sure you consider it a win for the clueless user. God bless the champs of the universe.

On the other hand, such options could also be taken as evidence for how poorly constructed that operating system is.

Windows kernel used to be top secret in the past but even then its source sometimes leaked. That thing was (is?) an intricate patchwork compared with a very consistent, KISS-compliant project such as the Linux kernel.

If I was an admin at a large company (having to setup/fix few PCs a day), I might consider this important, but then I almost surely wouldn't be able to choose the OS. :)
Agreed. Sucks to be a pawn, space cowboy. Been there.

Again, while a 2-day fight with Arch was a big issue, what's the actual gain of "installed at least 4x faster than W10"?
Setup of W10 (including software I use) takes maybe 2-4 hours. And I do it maybe once a year.
I can install Ubuntu on my machine from a USB 3.0 flash drive in about 30 minutes, give it another 30 minutes to pull the latest updates and to get AMDGPU-Pro installed. Honestly, Windows 10 takes about the same amount of time to install so, I'd call that a non-issue.
It's not a p*ssing contest for sure.

However, just for the sake of letting people know what's lying around: Antergos installs in 5 mins on my desktop PC (see specs) and in around 10 mins on my main laptop (AMD A10-5750M APU, 5400rpm HDD) from the worst flash drive at my disposal, an 8-year-old Kingston USB 2.0 DataTraveler (date acquired; it's actually older).

Lubuntu, Xubuntu and Manjaro share similar milestones.

It may take a couple of minutes for me to setup proprietary video drivers and extra 5 to get my favorite office suite (WPS) going, among stuff I simply get from the main repositories. Arch even offers a user fed repo where you can get nearly everything available for Linux.

How is that important at all? I'm talking about a user experience - not administration. With Linux you need some administrator skills (maybe now less than 10 years ago), but with Windows you don't. Linux is easier to take care of, but not to use.
Windows WiFi connections just work. Most users don't care how.
True. Especially the last sentence.

OMG. Who needs 1000+ connections on torrent?
When torrenting on windows (laptop wifi), I have to cap max connections to 300 on the client settings or else that horrible wifi driver will hang up. A single popular torrent can hit that mark quite easily.

Besides, 2 popular torrents can hit 1000+ connections very fast. It doesn't really take more than 1 actually... But I thought 2 would sound more impressive or something.

I may not need that many connections, depending on my internet speed and my peers', but I don't need to cap them on Linux.

Try doing a trouble-free MS Office setup on Linux (with functioning links between the apps and stable Excel and Access database connections).
I don't need MS Office. I'm good with WPS and Libre.

Besides, who the heck still uses Access databases in 2017? Probably small companies and clueless home users mainly.

Maybe some fresh, real-life example? :D
We bought a printer, but I didn't have time to setup it for the last few days. My girlfriend did it yesterday (it took her half an hour - from starting the driver download to printing a test page).
It's a Canon MG5750. She connected it with Windows via a WiFi router, installed all the Canon software (there's really a lot of it!), checked ink levels and so on. All using a typical comic-style instruction sheet.

And it seems she's not a certified Windows administrator or a Canon consultant. She's a philologist. She doesn't even know what a file extension is (she has them hidden), how a computer network works ("IP?"), what's a terminal and so on.

As for the Canon itself - it's (of course) not supported officially in Linux, so all the nice software is already gone. Generally speaking, this is what Linux and Canon users have to live with:
http://www.canon-europe.com/support/consumer_products/operating_system_information/#LIX

Nevertheless, I've just looked for some Linux tutorials for similar printers and this one looks close enough:
http://linux.wikia.com/wiki/Getting_Canon_PIXMA_to_work_on_Linux
Would this work? I don't know. But I know she would stumble already on:
"1) Execute the commands below in a terminal"

BTW: according to the information at the end, a printer on standby "does not wake up when printing from Linux". Great.
Your text can be as bold as you want, you had already been given "real life" examples. I hardly power my all-in-one so it doesn't get to sleep. It all comes down to your particular needs.

It's a pity Linux can't properly take advantage of your magnificent Canon MG5750 anyway. Good thing windows is so grand.

Linux is clumsy, unnecessarily divided platform with pretty much zero common standards.
:rolleyes:
 
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Linux is clumsy, unnecessarily divided platform with pretty much zero common standards.
That's because Linux isn't what I would call a platform, it's just the kernel. Android is an OS distro just like Ubuntu, Mint, Arch, etc. and Google has made a lot of the same decisions that other distros have with the notable exception being a singular focus on mobile devices which is what I would argue made Android a recognized name. In fact Android uses the Linux kernel as well. Linux says nothing about how applications are installed, how packages are managed, and how the UI is used... and it shouldn't because that's not the job of the kernel.

So to clarify your statement, it's not that Linux has no standards. It's that it doesn't have standards for thinks like package management because that's outside of the scope of what a kernel does which is why the distros (the actual "platforms",) are inconsistent.
 

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And exactly all of that is the reason why it's so clumsy, unmanageable and unpopular.
It's manageable if you're using a single OS and not bouncing between a different one every week... but please, continue to preach to the person actually using Ubuntu as a daily driver.
 
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And you're talking to someone who gave Ubuntu more tries than anyone else ever...

If you want vanilla experience you don't use Ubuntu, you use Debian, preferably stable, which along Fedora and Slackware serves as the base for most distributions out there. There are also standardization guidelines (LSB) which are used to increase compatibility between distros and thus make software development easier. The distros are more similar than your rant implies.

Also, you failed to use Ubuntu because you want it to be a opensource clone of Windows - it simply doesn't work this way ...
 

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And you're talking to someone who gave Ubuntu more tries than anyone else ever...
I'm not saying that it's easy to jump into and that everything will be simple and make sense the moment you start using it. It doesn't work that way. How you use each one depends on the window manager and your understanding of what can be done out of the box but, once you figure out how it's intended to be used, everything else begins to make more sense. For example, just like in Windows 7 and 10, I can hit super, type "ste" and hit enter and Steam will load. I can hit super and type "chr" and hit enter and I get Chrome. Browsers are just browsers and [ported] games are just games.
If you want vanilla experience you don't use Ubuntu, you use Debian, preferably stable, which along Fedora and Slackware serves as the base for most distributions out there. There are also standardization guidelines (LSB) which are used to increase compatibility between distros and thus make software development easier. The distros are more similar than your rant implies.
On the other hand, distros like Arch give you bleeding edge versions of software, much like Debian Sid but, a little more stable. This is nice when there are features of things like a newer kernel, mesa, or some other libraries that are held back for the sake of stability... but, at least we have that option, right? It's not like Windows 10 where updates that are beta-quality (the process, not the update,) are being shoved down our throats. Not all Linux distros might work well for your uses and it might not be a plug and play replacement for your everyday use but, it can be and it's not bad once you get used to it.

As @kruk said:
Also, you failed to use Ubuntu because you want it to be a opensource clone of Windows
When it's really not even intended to be a clone of Windows. The fact that I can just decide that I want to run the latest 4.9 kernel in Ubuntu 16.04 is a level of flexibility that I would have never had in Windows. In fact, my mesa libs are bleeding edge because I have the option to run newer libraries to get bug fixes and new features. The fact that all I have to do is add a couple of software repos and I have OS managed package updates for things like AMDGPU-Pro, Slack, Chrome, Spotify, and anything not managed by Canonical is a benefit in and of itself.

My point is that, it's not Windows so don't expect it to be like Windows. When you don't "try" a Linux distro and you "use" it for an extended period of time without resorting to Windows, you will get it. It might not happen over night but, you'll eventually just work with it and you'll find out what it does worse and what it can do better but, to call it worse or better than Windows is too overreaching of a statement to be accurate in any way.

Edit: When I used to work a help desk while I was going through school, I actually did encounter people with Ubuntu on their laptops. Most of them didn't even know what the terminal was but, were able to use it for just about everything they needed. If someone who isn't tech-savvy can eventually figure out how to use it, I suspect anyone here can as well.

Edit 2: I don't recall Windows Update giving me the option to update software like Chrome, Slack, VLC, Docker, or PostgreSQL. Actually OS X doesn't do that either. :laugh:
upload_2017-3-5_9-50-55.png
 
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What I understand under "is supported" is: companies make stuff to be compatible with Windows. Everything works. All of functions, all of software.
Your example is a computer that's been SuSE certified, as per the wiki page. That means SuSE is going to work very well with it — at least, that's what SuSE claims. But SuSE isn't Arch Linux, nor is it Ubuntu. That's like expecting perfection from Windows 7 with your computer that came with Windows Vista.

The argument that goes around Windows being 100% compatible is both unreceivable and inaccurate. First off, it's an extrinsic parameter: Windows is not better per se. Instead, it happens to benefit from external factors, and I trust that most people in these forums know how Microsoft became so successful (hint: they're not really into fair play).

Secondly, let me tell you the story of my Bluetooth adapter that didn't work perfectly under Windows. (Yes, I have lots of stories to share. I happen to have a really good memory.) Basically, I couldn't use my Bluetooth earpiece because one of the bluetooth feature was unsupported. Thanks, Broadcomm! Therefore, I had to buy a pair of headphones instead of being able to use the Bluetooth earpiece. I was a poor student back then, mind you. Fast forward to 2010, the driver was updated and finally had all the bells and whistles. Except I had upgraded to Windows 7 by then, and their Windows 7 driver was still the old one, lacking that one feature I needed. Meanwhile, everything worked perfectly under Linux (plus, max bandwidth was 220 kB/s instead of 160 kB/s under Windows).

By the way, I visited an old friend over the weekend who told me that upgrading Windows 10 (back when it was still free) on his laptop caused his SSD not to be detected anymore. All stock hardware. Yeaah, everything works perfectly all the time. Sure.

Oh, and I could also tell you how a WHQL certified driver corrupted my hard disk, but then you'll fall asleep for reading for so long.


On Linux it's more like "You can scan and print, don't you? It's community-made and free - what do you expect?!".
Well... How would you feel if you had done someone else's job and the client was still pissed at you for not having hardware/software that meets their expectations? Tell me, how would you feel if someone has a heart failure due to someone else's neglect, and said person is mad at you after your saved them because they've got a broken rib? Rudeness, that's what people get for being ungrateful.

At any rate, you can always pick hardware that works with Linux. I've used several Brother printers at work, and they worked really well. In fact, I could even print before my colleague running — Windows — because I had a 3.5 MB file to download, while his file was hundreds of megabytes big. Besides, my colleague thought you couldn't scan using Ethernet because there was no INYOURFACE app à la HP, and Windows 7 won't list scanners in the config panel. Removing it from there was a really dumb thing, yep.

Think about it: the price of each peripheral you buy includes a premium for software and functions that are not available to Linux user. Does it change anything about our impression of Linux being free compared to Windows? :)
More like: "Let's make half the features software, so that the client will lose them if they install a different OS (be it a newer version of Windows or something entirely different)! We're holding you by the balls, guys! HAHAHAHA, MUAHAHAHAHA!"


1) the battery life was lacking (yes, yes - I know you're all sure that Linux has better energy efficiency, but it really wasn't true in my case - despite doing everything I could "research"),
2) few touch-actuated keys didn't work properly,
3) suspending/hibernation didn't work (a known issue, so I found some solutions online),
4) ... but WiFi didn't wake up after hibernation,
5) fn-key combination weren't working (I had to map them - there goes the "30 min" setup...),
6) the right edge of the touchpad had a scrolling function, which wasn't supported on Linux
and possibly some more I don't remember.

Some issues were solved by future kernels/drivers.
Wow, that sucks. Did you give a newer distro a spin to check back whether or not things have gotten better? Not trying to steal your time or anything, just being curious. Also, did you update whatever firmware could be updated (the main BIOS and anything that's got a firmware update).


I have to add: everything works beautifully on W10 - even though this is a 10-year-old notebook and the official support ended with W7.
Aaand I have a 10-year-old laptop that works like crap under Windows 7. Under Linux, though... Everything's supported. I can even two-finger scroll! Maybe I could try Windows 10 just for kicks, huh. Hey, maybe I'll do it this weekend. :p

But, if I understand correctly, this is your work (or part of it) - supporting clients. Right?
It all started when I realized I would have to wait forever whenever the computer broke down, either due to laziness or incompetence from the local "technicians." Things got to the point where my relatives and friends would tell me I could get paid for it, since I was always able to fix their issues, as minute as they were. (Or, at least, I could always tell them what was wrong, in case I couldn't fix it myself, like when a repair requires soldering.) So yeah, computer maintenance is a self taught thing in my case.

But anyway, if I'm getting paid for it, go ahead: by all means, have all the issues in the world on your computer. That means more money for me. When I'm helping a close friend or relative for free, however... It's a different story.

I'm not an admin nor anything similar.
As mentioned earlier: at some point I valued that highly career-wise. But even when I think about my studies (Physics, so Linux is ubiquitous), the handicap of being Linux-fluent was actually really tiny: I got a max score for the computer science course without any studying, I landed a date for helping with LaTeX and... that's possibly all.
If it was not worth pursuing to get a better income, you did the right thing (as in, if computers start getting boring to you whenever things like "CLI" or "screwdriver" get thrown about). Actually, these certifications in IT have been easy for my generation (I was born in the 80's) because, anyway, older people don't know squat and/or don't want to learn.


Even if Linux jumps on the touch-era train (a few distros tried - Ubuntu for example), the occasional need to write a command in a terminal will be just a horror story.
It already has: it's called Android. But yeah, most users don't want to hear about the internals, and that's normal.


OT:
But the Americans are just so right! Automatic transmission is much easier to use, also being less stressing physically. Sure, from the European point of view (mine in particular) - driving a car is not as pleasant as with manual (as an experience).
Think about the consequences. We're at the edge of autonomous car revolution and the Americans are like "oh yeah!", but Europeans are skeptical. We were against someone/something deciding what gear we're in, so accepting that now it will also choose anything else (including the path) is very difficult to accept. But this is the future and Americans (thanks to years of living with sh.tty ATs) are much better prepared for it.

And similarly, Windows and Mac communities are better prepared for the future of consumer computing, which is not about opening terminals, but rather about telling (in the actual sense) your PC what you want.
Well, I wouldn't be advocating Linux so much if Microsoft hadn't started deciding what things are better for me. I mean, Brave New World and 1984 are nice to read, but I don't wanna live those stories. It starts with deciding when to reboot or update your computer but you don't know where it'll stop.

Let's not forget the ads either. Why, just why would I get ads when I'm a paying customer? It goes against logic itself. You wanna ensure revenue because you're giving away a product, fine. But when I've paid for it, I don't want ads.


Of course it's Linux fault (the community to be precise).
Peripherals' manufacturers don't support Linux, because they have no business in it. They're not making money on this user group.
Linux is not trying to gain market share (to compete with Windows) nor attract the "pay and demand" user group, that often chooses Apple.
IMO this won't change, ever.
Funny how manufacturers have no problem using Linux in their routers, servers, smartphones, tablets, smartwatches, smart TV and so on. When it comes to the desktop, Microsoft still have the lion's share, which means everyone is familiar with. Never, ever underestimate familiarity. People will say the worst things about Linux, while not reacting the same to Windows's flaws. Example time: one kid at school said that Ubuntu is shit (yep, he literally said that) for not having Solidworks. The very same student was fine with Windows not having Python installed by default. When I pointed out that it wouldn't have been a problem if the school computers were running Ubuntu, he replied that it was the IT guy's fault for not having installed a Python IDE (a recent request made by their teacher).

Linux suffers from the "newcomer in our village" syndrome. Strangers have just arrived in the village, so they going to be blamed for all our issues. While Linux isn't new, that's how people perceive it, since they've likely never heard of it before.

But all things consider, if I was asked to point just one thing that's stopping Linux from becoming a mainstream OS, the answer is obvious and hasn't changed for 2 decades: it's the lack of MS Office support - IMO something that Linux community isn't really trying to achieve (wine simply doesn't work properly).
But that's the thing... I'm not sure if Linux community is interested in becoming "mainstream" in any way. :)
The lack of a closed format? Do you even know how MS's XML format was ISO certified? I urge you to read up on that. You'll see what kind of company MS is... The "I'm going to sabotage your car before the next race" to ensure victory. Not because they got a great car or driver, but because they made you fail.

Three E's, three E's all the time. People keep buying 'cause they don't know. Or, if they know, they want things to change, but they themselves don't wanna change. "LibreOffice still doesn't do X or Y. Of course, I've been buying MS Office for 20 years straight. Why are you asking?"

Financially supporting competitor X while asking improvements on competitor Y's part really is hypocrisy at its finest.


Exactly! And it works! Isn't that great?
I didn't have to care about Linux support, I didn't have to research and so on.
I could concentrate on more important things: quality, efficiency, speed, looks. I was not limited by my own choice of using a niche system.
Perhaps I'm too demanding. I just like knowing that what I bought, I actually got. If the box says "ASIO supported," it had better actually work. Sometimes advertised features don't work, and I've had too many things like this happen to me to care about those promises anymore. Maybe I'm too curious, too.


And it's not like Canon is lazy on OS support or software: the printer supports every Windows since XP (both 32 and 64-bit), all macOS since 2011, Android and iOS. It can also connect directly with cloud services (I like this a lot). And the bundled software looks pretty great (as expected: Canon is good at software).
You mean, they're supporting Linux (Android has got a Linux kernel) and BSD, but not Linux distros like Ubuntu or Fedora? Sounds lazy to me.


Now you're just looking for a problem to your solution.
Windows users don't have to rely on community. They can ask Microsoft or the PC vendor (if it's not a custom home-built model, this is a big win especially for laptops). This is the great thing about a product having a manufacturer (that is responsible for the quality).

But the precise answer is: I try the official MS documentation/forums (e.g. MSDN is excellent) and if that doesn't help, I usually find the answer on superuser.com.
I've found answers way more often on superuser and the likes, compared to the times I found them on MS's official websites. Also, MS's error codes are often vague. What's the point of having a code if it's useless? I'll agree that, at times, you'll find answers right away, in the offline help. Only at times, though. It's really inconsistent.


And BTW: the last time I had a piece of hardware incompatible with Windows was 17 years ago: Windows 2000 didn't support my old scanner. Since then it's all just "plug and play". :)
That's really nice, but, like I said before: I've had machines (laptops, so not custom builds) that I couldn't upgrade because no drivers were available for newer versions of Windows (and I was certainly not going to keep using XP in 2010).
 
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Hey, just adding some more info to the pool...

Arch is a rolling distribution offering two major branches you can choose from within the operating system, the core, I'd say cutting-edge one and a testing, bleeding-edge one, both easily interchanged by commenting/uncommenting a few lines in pacman.conf (package manager config file) - there's arguably no package management software as charming and yummy as Pacman, use it and you'll get what I say. Also, AUR (user fed repo) virtually eliminates the need for 3rd party repositories.

The testing branch fully supports Ryzen and its novelties (polishing may or may not be required), while the standard one will properly support it by the very beginning of April following the usual update schedule, take a look at the dates ("download size" relates to the current system image, actual updates are really small in comparison).

Frankly, as for stability and reliability, that OS will almost only break in quite specific situations, with gimmicky hardware generally. Avoiding the testing/development branch also helps. It's disabled by default anyway.

When I used to run Arch on my main laptop, kernel upgrades + Xorg versions + proprietary Radeon drivers were closely taken care of (didn't really take more than 5 minutes every other month). Regardless, I knew how to fix incompatibilities on the fly, which might happen solely because proprietary Radeon software didn't live up to the rest of the system. Broken proprietary graphics drivers would send me to the command line, not that big an issue as the whole system would work apart from X. A single command would install free video drivers, or else I'd just revert the kernel and xorg to compatible versions. It's all pretty smooth once you get it, unlike reverting Windows to a restore point like a champ since it's nothing but a built-in workaround a lot messier than it seems to good enough judgment.

Use an iGPU (Intel's, as AMD APUs use about the same proprietary drivers as discrete Radeon GPUs) and you won't have such issues on Arch. Nvidia will also update well, with reservations.

Also, if you run Arch proprietary-driver-free you'll have nearly zero issues if any.

Now here you go a brief tale about my graphics wrecks on W10:

Even after manually/forcefully disabling automatic updates by all known means including some very shady, unofficial ones, I finally had the ultimate of countless video problems with Windows 10 on my desktop setup (Arch's never broken on my desktop): my screen went gray and I had to find out how to enable the legacy boot menu using CMD from installation media "advanced" repair options, so that I could finally boot into "Safe Mode" - I was locked out of it as W10 will only let you reboot into safe mode from within windows itself, and not only was windows all gray, there was no "blind functionality", the thing was just borked). Nothing else solved the gray void of absolute death situation.


Back to Linux... For those looking for a rock solid Arch-based distro practically free of system breaks, although Arch doesn't often break when you're not using gimmicky hardware, there's Manjaro. It has its own simplified driver management tools and a straightforward GUI for kernel management, meaning you can download different kernels to keep a local supply and activate one of your choice (no need to fine tune GRUB or Syslinux if you happen to experience hardware issues with a kernel upgrade, which never happened to me on Manjaro). It is not as cutting/bleeding-edge as Arch as updates are tested more thoroughly for stability before each release, but it's definitely very stable (certainly more than W10).
 
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Also, if you're not a masochist, you can always install an Arch-linux fork, such as Manjaro. The installation process is as simple as that of Windows — no need to spend long hours configuring text files by hand. :p
 
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Also, if you're not a masochist, you can always install an Arch-linux fork, such as Manjaro. The installation process is as simple as that of Windows — no need to spend long hours configuring text files by hand. :p
As simple as and way faster than it :toast:
 
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Linux is clumsy, unnecessarily divided platform with pretty much zero common standards. That's the main reason it never took off and never will. And you people endlessly defending it on all ends are not helping it to thrive. The sooner you people realize that, the sooner Linux will become a viable option for the masses. If Linux had distros hierarchy like Android does, it would probably already be predominantly used by people and Microsoft would be having hard time pushing their stuff. Vanilla Linux with always the latest kernel and stuff guaranteed to work and have drivers, even 3rd party closed sourced ones. Then you can make 700 trillion distros from that and jerk around with them if you want, but users would always be able to fallback to that vanilla version that just works. Instead, we have 700 trillion different distros with NO vanilla from the get go to fall back to. And that's why shit never works as it should.

And giving GFWL as any sort of example is just silly. If anything, it just backs me up. Granulating and dividing things NEVER WORKS. It's why GFWL got killed, because it divided developers, gamers and games. Guess what all those 700 trillion Linux distros are doing to Linux as a whole? Yeah, the same thing...
again with the hysteria, wahwah

android is 'linux', most servers are linux, routers, IoT devices, it's everywhere, hmm that doesnt sound like something with 700 trillion distros with 'zero standards', such a liar

what some hobbyist distros feel like doing on their own is completely irrelevant & they are almost always based on the primary distros, of which there are a very small handful of, with the exact same standards like X, systemd, kernel, ext, ...

ever see ANY server provider offer you more than several distros? NO

'you people', it hasnt even been a year since i first tried out any distro for myself, yet why am i able to understand & think clearly? i never said anything is perfect, nothing is, i already started getting active on github to fix open source's problems, i dont sit around & complain to the air

do you use an iOS device? probably not? why? it 'took off' like crazy even though people had to learn something new & developers had to start over, leading mobile performance, lots of apps & games, or is pc gaming the single absolute only use case of a personal computer that only matters?
 
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android is 'linux', most servers are linux, routers, IoT devices, it's everywhere, hmm that doesnt sound like something with 700 trillion distros with 'zero standards', such a liar

Then why the hell I can't install Ubuntu on my router? or my routers "Linux" on my Android phone? But of course there totally aren't 700 trillion distros... such a liar.
 

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Then why the hell I can't install Ubuntu on my router?
You probably can, you probably just don't know to because there is no point-and-click installation for embedded devices. Hence why things like DD-WRT and Tomato exist and why distros like Raspbian exist for the Pi. Routes are also devices that aren't typically intended to have the OS changed which makes it more difficult. That's not a shortcoming of the OS. Tell me, how many routers run Windows and can you even get the thing to run on it? The answer is probably not.
 
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again with the hysteria, wahwah

android is 'linux', most servers are linux, routers, IoT devices, it's everywhere, hmm that doesnt sound like something with 700 trillion distros with 'zero standards', such a liar

You should check the IoT thing from time to time. Windows is already gaining on Linux and quite a lot of people (not MS-dependant) are betting it will become the standard IoT OS in the future.

ever see ANY server provider offer you more than several distros? NO
Are you a server admin? These could explain why you're so much into Linux. :D
I've never checked what a server vendor offers, let alone be interested. What a weird example...

do you use an iOS device? probably not? why? it 'took off' like crazy even though people had to learn something new & developers had to start over, leading mobile
Actually I have an iPhone. I've bought it in November.

iOS "took off like crazy", because it was well made - I'm sorry to say - unlike most distros and open-source software for Linux. (Yeah, aggresive marketing also helped).
And you know why it was well made? Because it was made by a huge company with hundreds of coders and UX-designers.

performance, lots of apps & games, or is pc gaming the single absolute only use case of a personal computer that only matters?

Of course it doesn't. As I said earlier: IMO the key issue in making Linux a mainstream product (especially in a typical office environment: companies, government administration etc) is lack of native MS Office.
But there are other things. There was a time when Linux had the best coding IDE, great text editors and so on.
What has happpened since? Sure, Linux users are still happy with everything Linux offers, but forums are full of questions like "Is there a good Linux alternative to Visual Studio?" and "Why Notepad++ is not available on Linux?" :)
 
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Then why the hell I can't install Ubuntu on my router? or my routers "Linux" on my Android phone? But of course there totally aren't 700 trillion distros... such a liar.

You might as well ask kn00tcn why people don't use swords to cut their steak. It's simply not the right tool. Clearly you haven't put much thought before asking that question...

I mean, why would I install a huge distro (compared to the memory chip in our routers, it is huge) when routers have no need for a DE to begin with?



Are you a server admin? These could explain why you're so much into Linux. :D
I've never checked what a server vendor offers, let alone be interested. What a weird example...

Nice straw man there. Did you really think that it would go unnoticed? But, I'll bite anyway: people don't need to be professionals in a given field to know a couple of things about said profession. For instance, you don't need to be a chef to know about which tools — or even brands — chefs use. There, I've rebutted your attempt at using a straw man.



What has happpened since? Sure, Linux users are still happy with everything Linux offers, but forums are full of questions like "Is there a good Linux alternative to Visual Studio?" and "Why Notepad++ is not available on Linux?" :)
Actually, the community is very critical about major changes. It goes without saying that you'd know about it if you actually had experience with — or were curious about — Linux. I mean, how could you miss the whole init system switch that occurred in this decade? Unless you're cherry picking, of course.
 
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