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Copper vs. Aluminum - Thermal Conductivity & Radiation

eidairaman1

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I know some of the "elite" pc enthusiasts love the 100% copper look, but i find it gaudy. I never liked yellow gold either, but obviously thats a preference of personal tastes. Anodized imo is best aesthetically.

Lol I'm not 133+ because I don't have a core i7 7700 ;)
 

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Copper is a better conductor but it isn't as rigid as aluminum which, in practice, means lower fin density. This is why most HSFs have a copper contact with the CPU and potentially copper heat pipes. The fins and greater assembly is aluminum. All copper heatsinks usually have fins many times thicker than aluminum heatsinks. The best, is therefore, a combination of both.

The thing HSF manufacturers aren't doing anymore that they should be doing is stamping dimples into those aluminum fins to reduce drag.


Edit: Here's an everything-is-equal study of copper and aluminum:
https://www.ecnmag.com/article/2010...erent-heat-sink-materials-cooling-performance

TL;DR: If only looking at thermal dynamics (not weight and not cost) and everything else is equal (especially surface area), copper will be better.
 
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That is a great study. It is interesting how the copper k value that is twice as high as aluminum only produces a 21 percent increase in overall performance. That result demonstrates the law of diminishing returns. Also, the study demonstrates how the overall performance is dependent on the velocity of the air passing by the fins. Back to the "weakest link" problem of getting the BTU transfer to the cooling airstream.
 
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I've been considering getting one of these waterblocks that have a base made out of silver.



 
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Nickel plating is just for looks. Why/what/how/where? Because copper oxidizes when exposed to air. Thus becoming less visually appealing. Nickel plating prevents that. Nickel is relatively cheap, easy to use for such purposes, provides a long lasting/durable protective layer, and has relatively "good" thermal conductivity. Making the practice of nickel plating copper heat sink components less stupid than it could be. Plastic coating a copper heat sink? No...actually...no...forget it...there's so much wrong with that I'm just going to pretend you didn't say it. In any case...you're talking about a microscopic layer of whatever increasing surface the area by a totally insignificant amount possibly yielding an equally insignificant amount of additional heat transference. Insignificant x Insignificant = Insignificant² = End of story.

Do go on though. Everything else you're saying seems to have a solid basis in reality. :)


You miss the point.

The process for creating that Nickel coat is generally electro-deposition. The copper is cleaned chemically (acid bath), washed in water, then submerged into a solution of aqueous nickel salts. As to which one, I cannot speak. A Nickel electrode is then charged, so that the Nickel ions inside the solution precipitate onto the charged copper surface, and more Nickel is brought into solution from the sacrificial electrode.

From a purely mechanical point of view, you are covering the copper with a much poorer conductor. This would, inductively, seem to be idiotic. Yes, the goal is to create a sacrificial layer that doesn't oxidize well, but as a side effect the performance is not significantly influenced because the very thin layering is counteracted by the relative increase in surface area.



As far as plastic, it's the exact same concept. The difference is that instead of a sacrificial coating you'd be functionally sealing off the copper from oxidation. If this is somehow a foreign concept, I'd suggest you look into magnetic wire. If that doesn't work, I'd like to ask if you've ever been skiing. The metal poles are often coated in very fine plastic layers. Believe it or not, getting a tongue stuck to one of them is actually easier than getting it stuck to a large metal pole. I'd prefer not to explain why I know this, but let's just say I won the bet and the person who thought I was crazy wound up rather distressed.


Doing the math here is a thankless task. Everybody wants it proven out, then wants to argue when the concept is beyond what they think. Let's just do a thought exercise. The coating material has half the k value of the substrate. The dT value is immaterial, because it is constant. This means that to have the same q value the coating must have a k*A/s value which exceeds that of the uncoated sample. In our thought experiment, that means A/(2s) is what you need to aim at. If your geometry is good, you'll note that there aren't a whole lot of shapes where surface area has that quick of an uptick. This is why the coating must be very thin.

From a giggles point, what processes actually do this? Vapor deposition, electro-deposition, and some chemical sprays. Plastic is largely a lump of material with longer chain polymers, making it difficult to do this without something like spray paint. Not only all of this, but cost is key.


-edit-
Copper is a better conductor but it isn't as rigid as aluminum which, in practice, means lower fin density. This is why most HSFs have a copper contact with the CPU and potentially copper heat pipes. The fins and greater assembly is aluminum. All copper heatsinks usually have fins many times thicker than aluminum heatsinks. The best, is therefore, a combination of both.

The thing HSF manufacturers aren't doing anymore that they should be doing is stamping dimples into those aluminum fins to reduce drag.

I was hoping somebody would start this.

Why are Intel's heatsinks designed the way they are? Why not just put an accordian press on a copper sheet and call it a win?

Welcome to the world of machining, and production.


Note something fun about Intel, their cooler design sucks because it is designed to be easy to manufacture cheaply and support barely below thermal throttling. The copper core provides adequate transfer from IHS to the aluminum body. The aluminum body is a cast piece, of relatively low quality and mechanical properties (seriously, try to bend one the fins and you'll snap it). Voids and impurities in the aluminum mean that heat transfer is OK, but it functionally means OK is all you get.

Copper is miserable to machine. Intuitively, you'd think that such a soft metal would be easy, but you would be misunderstanding what a lathe and mill do. Machining equipment actually chips away at the surface of metals, so a more maleable material requires special care. To compensate for this, you've got greater machining times, specialized tooling, and none of this even mentions that the copper is insanely priced because it requires degassing for its best thermal and mechanical properties.

One last bit, the dimples aren't what you think. In a golf ball the dimples reduce drag, but you're looking at a airflow that is definitely chaotic instead of laminar. In a cooling fan, you've got a laminar flow of air. The flow is not extremely high volume or high speed, which means you don't stand to gain a lot from creating a turbulent flow to minimize the fouling layer. There may be some gains, but we're talking so small at the common usage scenarios that the added manufacturing cost and complexity would literally be immeasurable for 99.99999% of consumers. This is the same reason I laugh when people building a water loop ask why the water isn't warmer after flowing through the CPU block, when their sensor is only calibrated to at most +/-1 degree C and they're got a sub 300 watt TDP system. It's not that there is no change, but the change is so miniscule as to be immeasurable.



I've been considering getting one of these waterblocks that have a base made out of silver.





Please, don't. At least not for the purpose of better performance.

Check that table I linked to on page 4. The difference between the two materials is 29 (copper = 401, silver = 429). That is a 7% difference in k values. If the price difference is so minute, then it would be worth it. In practice, you're looking at a system that still relies on a copper radiator to transfer the heat into the surrounding environment, correct?

The math is a pain, but at steady state:
q(CPU)=q(radiator)
Nominally increasing q for the water block isn't going to do you much good without either changing the material of the radiator, or making sure it is large enough to overcome the material difference. At that point, you're investing a heck of a lot of money for a 7% difference. I'd spend that money on higher static pressure fans if I was in your shoes.

If your goal is minimum maintenance, I'll eat my words. Silver salts don't form well, and oxidation of silver generally requires relatively acidic (sulfur based acids if memory serves) environments.
 
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http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2461

Dimpled heatsinks are cooler than the competition (a full degree Celsius) with less noise (4 dB quieter than second place). On Intel (hotter) test, the temp was about the same (still the lowest) but it did it with almost 10 dB less noise.

In that HSF design, they used copper heatpipes and everything else aluminum.

Stamping dimples into the aluminum isn't terribly expensive (just one extra step in production). The problem is that consumers don't realize how much of a difference that makes. When people see a non-dimpled HSF for $50 and a dimpled HSF for $55, they tend to buy the $50 model because they don't realize how large of a difference that $5 makes. It doesn't help that stores like Newegg doesn't make it easy to find dimpled HSFs.
 
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http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2461

Dimpled heatsinks are cooler than the competition (a full degree Celsius) with less noise (4 dB quieter than second place). On Intel (hotter) test, the temp was about the same (still the lowest) but it did it with almost 10 dB less noise.

In that HSF design, they used copper heatpipes and everything else aluminum.

Stamping dimples into the aluminum isn't terribly expensive (just one extra step in production). The problem is that consumers don't realize how much of a difference that makes. When people see a non-dimpled HSF for $50 and a dimpled HSF for $55, they tend to buy the $50 model because they don't realize how large of a difference that $5 makes. It doesn't help that stores like Newegg doesn't make it easy to find dimpled HSFs.

Let's really dig into this, and try to figure it out.

1) Is the same fan uniformly tested across all testing? No. Proof:
*Unless noted, for reference heatsinks with variable-speed fans only the 'high speed' (12V) fan noise measurement is included in the comparison sheet; more detailed results for the low fan speed (~5V) tests reside in each specific heatsink review. ** 'AMD' denotes compatibility with socket 754/939/940 & AM2 processors where applicable. 'Intel' denotes compatibility with socket 775 platform.
http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=2461&page=3

2) Are the heatsinks made uniform, namely in finish between the IHS and heat sink? No. Proof:
They are listed in the review for each unit, according to their review: http://www.frostytech.com/testmethod_mk2.cfm
Also, the testing is synthetic, so we're looking at a copper block with resistors rather than an IHS.

3) Are they comparing apples to apples? Nope. A quick look at these coolers confirms variation in fin density, heat pipe construction, heat pipe size, etc...
The short of this is that instead of 1:1 to demonstrate dimples, you pulled a grab bag of coolers. No DoE for you, and no conclusions can be drawn.

4) Everything else wrong with your "proof."
My earlier point was to create turbulent flow and reduce fouling layer. They reference the same effect, then add that this requires greater flow velocity and pressure. Apply the same better fan, and you change the results of the original test.
Changes in design. You can't say dimples create a better transfer, and change geometry, fin density, and construction. In a DoE (Design of Experiment) you test one factor to determine influence, and this is definitely not that.
Performance is not really different here. Do the math. Variability in a dozen areas means your error factor is larger than a few degrees. Despite this, you claim it as proof. It's just not a conclusion.
etc...


Again, in practice there is no difference. If you read the papers by these people they aren't talking about absolute heat transfers in a heat sink. They're determining how the variation of dimples will influence the heat transfer rates. If you look at the sources there is exactly one citation about microelectronics, and half a dozen relating to heat differentials and pressures which would destroy electronics. They cited it, as a means to create the illusion that they understood the technique, not that he had anything to say about the geometry of dimples on this specific cooler. Do not mistake this, they only are talking about this cooler.

This is a classic appeal to authority, based upon the fact that most people would only casually read it. It'd be like me releasing an ice cream, citing a research paper that discussed the optimal process for distributing fat into ice cream, and then demonstrating I have the best and richest ice cream (because I read the research paper). What I don't tell you is I have an extra 3% milk fat, and that the judges had tasted different flavors from all entrants. Maybe the judges like my chocolate because of a bias for it instead of the flavors from the other contestants.

No. Bad science, and no conclusions can be drawn. Good try though. You're looking at one article, one cooler, and the one conclusion it performs better. Why is not answered, nor asked. A BS proposal for dimples is discussed, then dropped. You read into it, created a link, and made a false conclusion. Read again. The conclusion is that a heat sink has dimples, and that experimentally it performs well. You can't say it is because of the dimples.
 
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Nickel plating is just for looks. Why/what/how/where? Because copper oxidizes when exposed to air. Thus becoming less visually appealing. Nickel plating prevents that. Nickel is relatively cheap, easy to use for such purposes, provides a long lasting/durable protective layer, and has relatively "good" thermal conductivity. Making the practice of nickel plating copper heat sink components less stupid than it could be. Plastic coating a copper heat sink? No...actually...no...forget it...there's so much wrong with that I'm just going to pretend you didn't say it. In any case...you're talking about a microscopic layer of whatever increasing surface the area by a totally insignificant amount possibly yielding an equally insignificant amount of additional heat transference. Insignificant x Insignificant = Insignificant² = End of story.

Do go on though. Everything else you're saying seems to have a solid basis in reality. :)

What he is saying is true but the example he gave was just terrible.
 

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In the HVAC industry, there are many manufacturers of coils that proclaim that the "wave fin" (or some other hyped up name) improves heat transfer by creating turbulence. This technique (and sales pitch) have been used for over 50 years. I am assuming that one or some of these manufacturers actually have test data (with waves versus without waves) to substantiate their claims. Some of the manufacturers do hold patents on their fin wave geometry.

Try this google search:
"Do wave fins on a coil improve heat transfer"
 

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Mythbusters did a show on how dimples (like in golf balls) reduce resistance on a vehicle. The conclusion was it's plausible. Dunno how that'd relate to coolers, but I know if there's evidence of a difference there, it probably makes a difference in cooling as well.
 

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http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/id/2742/pageid/5276/ask-sarah-dimples-on-cars.aspx
Back to cars and more specifically the 2004 Lexus LS430 which received a lot of attention from its Super Bowl ad that turned the LS upside down in a wind tunnel to reveal the dimpled panels on the undercarriage. Dimpled panels on the underbody are actually becoming quite the norm from the Mercedes Benz CLS to many Porsche, Volkswagen, and Audi models, among others. These are typically used on an undercarriage where there is a zero pressure gradient geometry, more commonly referred to as flat plate type flow. The flow in this environment doesn't tend to separate since two dimensional instabilities such as Tollmien-Schlichting (T-S) waves cause the flow to naturally transition to turbulent without needing any type of vortex generators. T-S waves carry a certain frequency that amplifies in a range of Reynolds numbers. Environmental disturbances, typically sound, cause wave instability and transitions the flow from laminar to turbulent. Car manufacturers may put dimples on the underbelly pan, airflow dams, or other parts of the cars to reduce wind noise and drag. Additionally these dimples can also help strengthen the panels.
MythBusters took the theory to the extreme.
 
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Demonstrate your conjecture. Demonstrate how it works in the application you have described. I'll wait, because nothing thus far has done so. In order to do that, you'll have to find data that I'm not sure exists. Namely, data where all other items are held constant and testing is done in conditions comparable to what a CPU cooler would see. No research paper, no variation in material, and no variation in design because a 1:1 is not produced for consumer products. I know I'm asking for the impossible, but you bear the burden of proof when you claim that dimples automatically make a cooler better. I have the much easier job of poking holes into the argument.


Mathematically, a turbulent flow exposes more area to the transfer material (and the dimples increase surface area too). Heat transfer also occurs by both conduction and convective influences, effectively boosting q. In theory world, this means a maximum of 30-40% better q values because the A value is increased. I say theory world, because the paper in question did not focus itself on practical applications demonstrable in a CPU cooler. This is the issue with drawing a conclusion based on poor arguments, which derive themselves from a poorly interpreted appeal to authority.

Now in the real world (read: messy and prone to us humans borking things pretty badly), let's consider doing this. You are a brisk business, and sell about 100,000 units of a cooler per year. Said cooler requires only 30 fins per unit. That means an additional 3,000,000 processes per year.

I'll give you a press which can produce 2 parts per stamp, because any more than that and the labor of loading and unloading starts to add up. You need 1,500,000 cycles. The average laborer does 2000 hours of work per year, which means that if this takes an entire shift all year round then you've got to have 750 cycles per hour, or 12.5 per minute, or a cycle every 4.8 seconds. Pay said laborer the equivalent of $30,000 per year. Now, purchase the press. You're looking at an initial investment of maybe 250,000 dollars. Consumable materials, including the dies for the stamping, are another 30,000. Let's just put maintenance due to wear at 45,000 per year (swag, but based upon oil, minor fixes, die work, and other factors). You've got $355,000 invested into adding dimples to your 100,000 units sales. A net cost of $3.55 per part, without even factoring in inefficiencies and down time. You're looking at an increase in cost of about $5.00 per part once the increase in infrastructure is actually factored in.

Now, build in profit. You produce the parts, and sell them to a distributor with a margin to make this work profitable. The distributor adds their margins, before selling it to a retailer. That $5.00 cost was increased to $6.00 by you, $12 by the distributor, with $24.00 by the time you buy it. If you have a cooler that costs $30 to buy, with a $24 upcharge because of an additional process, you have functionally 200% costs for a 140% performance.


Now, let's look at your one example. The cooler is at most 1 degree C cooler than its competition. The noise level is incomparable, because the fans aren't certified to be uniform. Benefit of the doubt, a 12% increase in relative cooling. How much is the increase due to change in effective area, convection, and changes in material thickness (s)? I can't determine any way to tell, but if you see something I'm missing I'd gladly acquiesce to ignorance in order to understand your perspective.

Circling back, walk me through this one more time. Exactly why would you suggest we add dimples? In experimental conditions, with fine controls that are all but impossible in regular manufacturing, they demonstrated a 30-40% increase in q with a higher pressure drop. In practice, you demonstrate negligible performance gains with a test that is eight years old.

By this same logic, we should really use silver instead of copper, because that extra 7% k value will make a difference. It's odd, because you hit the nail on the head earlier, aluminum is used in fins not because of its performance but because it is less costly and easier to manufacturer. Yet in the case of dimples, you've reversed your opinion. A minor, demonstrated by a single degree in ideal conditions, performance difference has a large associated cost.

As a note, the cooler in question was Japanese only. A country notorious for spending vast sums of money on perfection, rather than having a reasonably priced 80% solution. I can't find any pricing information, but I'd conjecture that was the case here. Again, if you can prove me wrong I'd gladly acquiesce to ignorance.



-edit-
As to the math again, welcome to heavy physics. Namely, the world where scientist acquiesce to their models not being an accurate prediction of the world.

Read your own section please, because while rather wordy, it spells things out....clearly if you understand the background. To the layman, this is all insanity:

"In an effort to disrupt the boundary layer in continuous fins, perforated fins have also been studied where a pattern of spaced holes are formed in the fin material before the fin is folded into a U-shaped flow channel (Webb and Kim [2005]). The perforated fins produce little heat enhancement in the laminar flow regime and a moderate one in the turbulent regime (Webb and Kim [2005]). Fujii et al. [1988] studied a new type of perforated fin, where the heat exchanger is constructed with surfaces using enlargements and contractions forming a trapezoidal shape. Fujii et al [1988] covered Reynolds number flows less than 3000. They reported that the heat enhancement from the fin surface is due to the secondary flow induced by the suction and injection through the perforations, and due to the frequent boundary layer interruptions at each contraction part."

Note:
1) The perforated fins produce little heat enhancement in the laminar flow regime and a moderate one in the turbulent regime (Webb and Kim [2005]).
2) Fans produce functionally laminar air flow
3) Dimples generate turbulence, assuming some high velocity air
4) The cited Reynolds numbers are high. High as in not applicable to our geometries high.
5) The cited paper, http://heattransfer.asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/article.aspx?articleid=1443782, deals with tube heat exchangers and surface roughness

To put a lot of science very briefly, it has been stated that you can increase heat transfer by turbulence. You can generate turbulence in low density and low speed fluid flows vie discontinuities. Even despite this, the influence ranges from little to moderate. Given that we aren't talking huge temperature differentials, this equates to low gains in practice.

The funniest part, none of this matters. The Reynolds number for a chord length of 15 cm, with a 100 CFM fan, whose linear velocity is 3.5 m/s, with a kinematic viscosity of 1.5111E-5 M^2/s, is 34,743. Way outside the range of the 3,000 cited.

Again, the papers are not looking at the same thing you are (Reynolds calculator here http://airfoiltools.com/calculator/....15&MReNumForm[kvisc]=1.5111E-5&yt0=Calculate). If you could slow the flow, increase the chord length, or increase kinematic viscosity we'd be on the same page. As this stands, you're still not applying the research in a constructive manner.

While technically correct, you're spending a huge amount of effort to find the last 2% of returns. It isn't done, because it isn't rational. If you want to argue that, then please build your own superior cooler for the same price. I'll vote with my wallet, but I'm not paying 200% of the price for 140% of the performance. I will however agree that thicker fluids (read: liquids) have this make a heck of a lot of sense. If you want to build new type of cooler I'm on-board.
 
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It's not rocket science. Dimples create turbulence which allows moving air to get closer to the metal (usually shielded because of drag) which facilitates more efficient heat transfer to air that is in motion. It takes less volume of air to remove the same thermal energy.

Don't need an apples to apples comparison when the difference is so significant in the metrics that matter. Every time a dimpled heatsink showed up on the market, it outperformed most of its peers (unless they are ridiculously huge in comparison).

You're looking at an increase in cost of about $5.00 per part once the increase in infrastructure is actually factored in.
Funny. I said exactly that and I was just guesstimating. I have no problem spending 10% more on an HSF with dimples. Problem is, most consumers don't know the difference so they buy the cheaper model.

"In an effort to disrupt the boundary layer in continuous fins, perforated fins have also been studied where a pattern of spaced holes are formed in the fin material before the fin is folded into a U-shaped flow channel (Webb and Kim [2005]). The perforated fins produce little heat enhancement in the laminar flow regime and a moderate one in the turbulent regime (Webb and Kim [2005]). Fujii et al. [1988] studied a new type of perforated fin, where the heat exchanger is constructed with surfaces using enlargements and contractions forming a trapezoidal shape. Fujii et al [1988] covered Reynolds number flows less than 3000. They reported that the heat enhancement from the fin surface is due to the secondary flow induced by the suction and injection through the perforations, and due to the frequent boundary layer interruptions at each contraction part."
Perforations are holes, not dimples.
 
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Golf Balls. Laminar flow. Coitus Interruptus. Two of these things have something in common.
 
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It's not rocket science. Dimples create turbulence which allows moving air to get closer to the metal (usually shielded because of drag) which facilitates more efficient heat transfer to air that is in motion. It takes less volume of air to remove the same thermal energy.

Don't need an apples to apples comparison when the difference is so significant in the metrics that matter. Every time a dimpled heatsink showed up on the market, it outperformed most of its peers (unless they ridiculously huge in comparison).


Funny. I said exactly that and I was just guesstimating. I have no problem spending 10% more on an HSF with dimples. Problem is, most consumers don't know the difference so they buy the cheaper model.


Perforations are holes, not dimples.

In order.

1) This is rocket science. Pressure differentials, fluid flow patterns, and thermo are all basic building blocks of rocketry.
2) No. Just no. What you are describing is the decreasing of the boundary, or fouling, layer. Yes it improves heat transfer, but the boundary layer can never be removed. It can even be changed in laminar flow by altering the surface finish, fluid flow velocity, and kinematic viscosity of the fluid flowing over it.
3) I don't think you're viewing cause and effect in the same way here. If I have a crappy fan, I can decrease the performance of any heatsink. If I have a million dollars I can create a fan with exotic bearings and use a deposition process to grow carbon rod filaments to produce the greatest surface area possible for cooling. This is engineering, you compromise one thing to get another.
4) To expand on 3, $5.00 in manufacturing. You said $5.00 on sale price. In your example, it's 150% of the price for about 110% of the performance. If you want a 110% of the price you're looking at $1.00 increase in manufacturing price.
5) The wording for dimples is obfuscated here. They initially say perforated fin, then suggest an enlargement and contraction of the surface to create a trapezoidal shape. No perforation, just shaped metals in a trapezoidal pattern.

I think that covers most of it, but the largest take-away here is that thermo sucks. Reynolds numbers are a pain, and the abrupt change in mathematics from laminar to turbulent flow makes simple conduction calculations ugly. All this being said, you've got a delta of 1 degree C for a bunch of extra manufacturing work. This isn't done because the real world investment into the manufacturing is not paid back in performance.


As an acid test, say you're a start-up. You can dimple your fan and radiator fin surface. This buys you a name, even if the profit margin sinks. You are the 212, or 212+ of a new generation. The thing is, you can't. You don't see this because almost nobody would be able to detect a difference. You'd get better performance results at the same price by optimizing the fan, or simply making the heat transfer surface bigger. If this is a bit nutty, and it is, then consider how many gigantic densely finned tower coolers exist. Let's even offer a 10% performance increase. Aluminum+dimples = 55%, Aluminum+smooth = 50%, Copper+dimples = 110%, Copper+smooth = 100%, Silver+dimples = 115%, and Silver+smooth = 107%. The maximum performance, all other things equal and assuming enough static pressure, is 15% better. You'd have to charge so much more for the performance that it would only be viable if money was no object. At that point, just buy a water cooler and huge radiator.

I understand the arguably demonstrable performance increase of dimples, even if you can't prove it. I'll even give you that argument. At the same time, Money talks. Performance that, in the real world, is arguably not measurable given all the other variables isn't an excuse to spend more money. If you don't agree, I'm sure I've got a gold plated HDMI cable around here. Those were supposed to increase SNR....
 
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I know I may be nitpicking, but you could stamp and cut in one process, which would make the only difference be in price due to the separate die (if I'm not mistaken).
 

Designer

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Fields of scientific study (thermo, heat transfer, fluid flow, et al) do recognize the existence of emperical data and events that are not completely predictible nor verifiable, but nonetheless do exist.

example:
  • dimples improve performance,
  • we understand how and why dimples improve performance (theorize)
  • only by experiment can we show that "x" size dimples help but "y" size dimples do not help.
  • But, We are unable to "prove" by way of an equation exactly how the affects work.
  • It is this search for a "proof" that has become the subject of many a post graduate thesis. :)
Thanks Again
 
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I know I may be nitpicking, but you could stamp and cut in one process, which would make the only difference be in price due to the separate die (if I'm not mistaken).

The "optimal" manufacturing solution here would be to have a coil fed through a flattener, slit to width, run through a large scale stamping press (which would create a repeating pattern along the surface), and then sheared to length in order to spit out a completed part with a near lights-out operation. This is acceptable because, as the research paper demonstrated, separation and geometry are what matters in dimples. Cutting and dimpling in a single process is not ideal, unless you're getting metal coil in the width of one surfaces. At that point, you pay your mill a premium to slit the coil to the desired size.


So the astute would ask why we don't see this. Let's walk through manufacturing 101.

If you're producing 10,000 units a year this kind of investment is steep. I'm talking the better part of a decade before you can break even on the price of investment. Given that these things are generally manufactured where it is cheapest, labor is the cheapest resource. Reusing old machines is acceptable, and any hydraullic press can be retrofitted to stamp. The consumables are the die used to press the pattern, the slitter blades, and the shear blades. All of which will have to be maintained excessively well with aluminum as their input material. If not properly spaced, or dull, aluminum wipes instead of shearing.

If you were going to go out and propose this to an OEM that does a ton of business, you'd have a case for lights-out operation. If you're selling these, with the aftermarket consumer in mind, then your sales are extremely limited. For the benefit of doubt, I'll give you a 100,000 units a year sales figure despite PC sales indicating aftermarket coolers are likely a 10,000 unit a year business in most cases.

Factoring in everything; $250,000 for a press, $100,000 for a slitter setup, $75,000 for a shear, $125,000 for an flattener, and $50,000 for an uncoiler. Build in a control system, and you tack another $50,000 at minimum (sensors, controllers, etc...). That puts a lights-out at $650,000 just in equipment. Layout another $40,000 for infrastructure, and we're at $690,000. Pay for skilled workers in the third world, and you've got about $75,000 in labor and $25,000 in maintenance based upon amortized costs over a 5 year life cycle with the equipment being phased into legacy product thereafter.

Let's say your cooler is sold for $75.00. Let's say that there's only a distributor, so the cost to distributor is $37.50. You're a manufacturer, so the most you're making is 10%. That means every cooler nets you $3.75. At 100,000 units a year, your gross profit is $375,000. This means in the first year you can't make any money (690,000+75,000+25,000-375,000 = 415000 in debt). In year two you still lose (415,000+75,000+25,000-375,000 = 140000 in debt). In year 3 you make some money (140,000+75,000+25,000-375,000 = 135000 in profits).

Now you've got a refresh to the sockets. If you're lucky, a minor change can be made. If you're unlucky the process starts all over again. The stamp is salvageable, the shear is reusable, and the slitter can be adjusted. Of course, the fins are likely the cheapest part of the cooler, given that heatpipes and contact plates are toleranced much tighter and will need to be adjusted for any significant socket change.



TL; DR
Intel flipping sockets is bad for consumers, and manufacturers (worse, when you factor in AMD's relative decline in the last decade). They are OK with it because their coolers are a mess, with performance meant only to keep everything just below thermal throttling.

Even if we wanted to make all fins dimpled, the associated cost and lack of substantial (read: not worth the investment to performance ratio) benefit is where the rubber never meets the road. While it is fine to conjecture about how much cooling could be better, all demonstrated facts point toward dimpling being a great paper idea but not worth the effort. This is similar to the paper gains of silver and more exotic materials. Added costs vastly outstrip benefits. As was put earlier, diminishing returns poisons this idea.

-Edit-
Fields of scientific study (thermo, heat transfer, fluid flow, et al) do recognize the existence of emperical data and events that are not completely predictible nor verifiable, but nonetheless do exist.

example:
  • dimples improve performance,
  • we understand how and why dimples improve performance (theorize)
  • only by experiment can we show that "x" size dimples help but "y" size dimples do not help.
  • But, We are unable to "prove" by way of an equation exactly how the affects work.
  • It is this search for a "proof" that has become the subject of many a post graduate thesis. :)
Thanks Again

I don't disagree. The converse is true in this case though. Mathematically the dimples "should, ideally" produce 30-40% better heat transfer. I will not argue that, because I can't. The provided empirical evidence, which is lackluster in proving or disproving anything, is that the difference is at best 1 degree Celsius in a real world application.

My point is proof may exist. Papers may confirm the theory. The provided data is insufficient to pull any conclusions, and trying to fabricate them because of a single article with a tenuous link to a research paper is not a profitable project. This is combined by the research being done in conditions dissimilar to those found in coolers, and the comparative coolers not being made uniform in any way.

Basically, if you double the amount of fins, an aluminum cooler could (theoretically) match that of a copper one (all other things being constant). In this case, there is no correlation between performance, geometry, material construction, and other very poignant variables. It's just a random sampling of available consumer products. That's useful for purchasing decisions, but not proof of anything but product A being better than product B for an unknown reason.
 
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I think our observations here on this forum confirm that consumers make product decisions based on: hyped up literature, peer pressure, personal bias, gut feeling, etc, etc. Most product decisions are not based on rational analysis and research.
The irrationality of purchases is what fuels the manufacture of products that would otherwise not make sense or be justified.
I guess that's the study of marketing :eek:. "Let's convince em why they need this"
Thanks
 

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I understand the arguably demonstrable performance increase of dimples, even if you can't prove it. I'll even give you that argument. At the same time, Money talks. Performance that, in the real world, is arguably not measurable given all the other variables isn't an excuse to spend more money.
What's the benefit of hardware running cooler and quieter? I see dimpled heatsinks as sitting between traditional heatsinks and water cooling. Dimpled heatsinks could also be used at the high end of water cooling for the same reason they're useful in air cooling.

I think if dimpled heatsinks were widely available, they'd be the gold standard in server farms because they should theoretically reduce operating costs (fans require fewer amps).


I think our observations here on this forum confirm that consumers make product decisions based on: hyped up literature, peer pressure, personal bias, gut feeling, etc, etc. Most product decisions are not based on rational analysis and research.
The irrationality of purchases is what fuels the manufacture of products that would otherwise not make sense or be justified.
I guess that's the study of marketing :eek:. "Let's convince em why they need this"
Thanks
Yes, dimpled products failed due to lack of marketing. Outside of this discussion, how many even realized they existed for computers? There' s effectively 0 consumer knowledge about them and their benefits. Because of that, most people aren't going to lay down the extra money for them. Someone would have to build a recognizable brand on the principle.

Definitely a marketing problem and not an engineering problem.
 

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Unsubbing, too many are writing too long a reply, we are not writing books here.
 
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What's the benefit of hardware running cooler and quieter? I see dimpled heatsinks as sitting between traditional heatsinks and water cooling. Dimpled heatsinks could also be used at the high end of water cooling for the same reason they're useful in air cooling.

I think if dimpled heatsinks were widely available, they'd be the gold standard in server farms because they should theoretically reduce operating costs (fans require fewer amps).



Yes, dimpled products failed due to lack of marketing. Outside of this discussion, how many even realized they existed for computers? There' s effectively 0 consumer knowledge about them and their benefits. Because of that, most people aren't going to lay down the extra money for them. Someone would have to build a recognizable brand on the principle.

Definitely a marketing problem and not an engineering problem.

1) The hierarchy is already populated. Solid metal-heat pipe-AIO-custom loops. An additional $24, tacked onto a $75 product, produces a $99 product. For that price, why not buy an AIO? Heck, your "couple of degrees" argument is why AIO coolers even exist when high end air is a step down with a corresponding step down in price.
2) It's not marketing. This is a question of reward to investment. If you're looking at a server environment, where space and performance are held above price, then this makes sense. If you're a consumer, where price is critical, then the extra manufacturing makes little sense.
3) I am...disappointed. You've extrapolated all of this data from an unrelated study, a single cooler only available in Japan, and a website which literally spelled out that the linked article about dimples was not a direct correlation to performance figures. I get having a bias, but it's that kind of thinking which led to Bulldozer, Netburst, and other decisions which failed to add context to their "brilliant" idea. Maybe for a second you should consider your proof. If it was correct the best computer hardware on the market would be a single mechanical counter. It can perform only one operation, but it can perform said test as fast as the wheels can be driven. That sounds silly, but it's what you are arguing. One cooler, one test with unknown biases, with comparison to more coolers with unknown biases.
 

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The first law of thermo confirms that all work (energy) is eventually converted to heat. The advancement in micro electronics over the last 40 years has jammed a lot of energy (computing power and clock speed) into a much smaller net space (CPU chip). But when you add the cooling system (fans, fins, tubes, AIO, etc) the gross footprint for that computing power grows significantly. If space is not a concern (data center floor area, size of server box, etc) then it doesn't make sense to cram chips into cabinets (blades) and compound the congestion by craming servers into rows of racks. From the macro standpoint We found that densities above 75 watts per gross sqft or 2kw per cabinet require rack coolers. That density driven extra equipment is analogous to the fins, fans, tubes, that are being required in the cabinets for the high speed chips.
The extra equipment, whether at the macro or micro levels is costly to install AND to maintain over the life of the data center. Tier 4 data centers need N+1 reliability in the electrical equipment and should have N+2 on the mechanical equipment.
I can appreciate the desire to avoid overspending for data center design densities AND server design densities.
Thanks
 

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