• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Seagate Guilty of Undisclosed SMR on Certain Internal Hard Drive Models, Too: Report

btarunr

Editor & Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
46,274 (7.69/day)
Location
Hyderabad, India
System Name RBMK-1000
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5700G
Motherboard ASUS ROG Strix B450-E Gaming
Cooling DeepCool Gammax L240 V2
Memory 2x 8GB G.Skill Sniper X
Video Card(s) Palit GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER GameRock
Storage Western Digital Black NVMe 512GB
Display(s) BenQ 1440p 60 Hz 27-inch
Case Corsair Carbide 100R
Audio Device(s) ASUS SupremeFX S1220A
Power Supply Cooler Master MWE Gold 650W
Mouse ASUS ROG Strix Impact
Keyboard Gamdias Hermes E2
Software Windows 11 Pro
Earlier this week, Western Digital was in the line of fire when it emerged that several of its WD Red family of "NAS-optimized" hard drives allegedly employ some form of shingled magnetic recording (SMR), a physical-layer data writing technique that maximizes density at a heavy cost of random write performance that effectively makes the HDDs unfit for use in RAID volumes, and in turn most NAS applications that commonly employ RAID and encourage end-users to build RAID volumes for data redundancy. A new report by Blocks & Files finds that the issue is more widespread than previously thought, and that even Seagate employs it without disclosure on certain models.

Several of Seagate's higher capacity Barracuda desktop internal hard drives use SMR without disclosing it in their data-sheets. These include the 8 TB ST8000DM004, and 5 TB ST5000DM000. Both these drives are sold under the Barracuda Compute brand, which markets "home servers, entry-level DAS, and desktop computers" among its use-cases. Seagate does market its Archive and Exos lines of HDDs are employing SMR, but mention of the technique is buried in their data-sheets, and not prominently in product marketing or packaging. Archive and Exos are targeted at bulk cold storage setups where capacity is more important than performance. Meanwhile, Toshiba has confirmed that its Desktop HDDs too employ SMR. The company's MQ04 2.5-inch and DT02 3.5-inch HDDs employ "managed SMR" (i.e. use conventional recording and switch to SMR as the platters are running out of space).



View at TechPowerUp Main Site
 
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
25,559 (6.52/day)
This is unpleasant and unacceptable. All specifications should be clearly and openly disclosed, at all times, so that buyers can make informed choices. This nonsense does not instill trust...

The company's MQ04 2.5-inch and DT02 3.5-inch HDDs employ "managed SMR" (i.e. use conventional recording and switch to SMR as the platters are running out of space).
The science behind the ability to do that must be interesting.
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
600 (0.16/day)
Location
UK
At this rate it won't be SSD's that kill off HDD's but rather the attitude from HDD manufacturers themselves...
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
8,115 (2.29/day)
Location
SE Michigan
System Name Dumbass
Processor AMD Ryzen 7800X3D
Motherboard ASUS TUF gaming B650
Cooling Artic Liquid Freezer 2 - 420mm
Memory G.Skill Sniper 32gb DDR5 6000
Video Card(s) GreenTeam 4070 ti super 16gb
Storage Samsung EVO 500gb & 1Tb, 2tb HDD, 500gb WD Black
Display(s) 1x Nixeus NX_EDG27, 2x Dell S2440L (16:9)
Case Phanteks Enthoo Primo w/8 140mm SP Fans
Audio Device(s) onboard (realtek?) - SPKRS:Logitech Z623 200w 2.1
Power Supply Corsair HX1000i
Mouse Steeseries Esports Wireless
Keyboard Corsair K100
Software windows 10 H
Benchmark Scores https://i.imgur.com/aoz3vWY.jpg?2
At this rate it won't be SSD's that kill off HDD's but rather the attitude from HDD manufacturers themselves...
HDD wont die off, consumers will stop buying Seagate, while taking a closer look at WD for shady practices too.
 
Joined
Nov 18, 2010
Messages
7,106 (1.46/day)
Location
Rīga, Latvia
System Name HELLSTAR
Processor AMD RYZEN 9 5950X
Motherboard ASUS Strix X570-E
Cooling 2x 360 + 280 rads. 3x Gentle Typhoons, 3x Phanteks T30, 2x TT T140 . EK-Quantum Momentum Monoblock.
Memory 4x8GB G.SKILL Trident Z RGB F4-4133C19D-16GTZR 14-16-12-30-44
Video Card(s) Sapphire Pulse RX 7900XTX + under waterblock.
Storage Optane 900P[W11] + WD BLACK SN850X 4TB + 750 EVO 500GB + 1TB 980PRO[FEDORA]
Display(s) Philips PHL BDM3270 + Acer XV242Y
Case Lian Li O11 Dynamic EVO
Audio Device(s) Sound Blaster ZxR
Power Supply Fractal Design Newton R3 1000W
Mouse Razer Basilisk
Keyboard Razer BlackWidow V3 - Yellow Switch
Software FEDORA 39 / Windows 11 insider
It has been known in other forums for few years already...

I wonder why it only is said now...
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
11,878 (2.31/day)
Location
Manchester uk
System Name RyzenGtEvo/ Asus strix scar II
Processor Amd R5 5900X/ Intel 8750H
Motherboard Crosshair hero8 impact/Asus
Cooling 360EK extreme rad+ 360$EK slim all push, cpu ek suprim Gpu full cover all EK
Memory Corsair Vengeance Rgb pro 3600cas14 16Gb in four sticks./16Gb/16GB
Video Card(s) Powercolour RX7900XT Reference/Rtx 2060
Storage Silicon power 2TB nvme/8Tb external/1Tb samsung Evo nvme 2Tb sata ssd/1Tb nvme
Display(s) Samsung UAE28"850R 4k freesync.dell shiter
Case Lianli 011 dynamic/strix scar2
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup, corsair void pro headset
Power Supply corsair 1200Hxi/Asus stock
Mouse Roccat Kova/ Logitech G wireless
Keyboard Roccat Aimo 120
VR HMD Oculus rift
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 8726 vega 3dmark timespy/ laptop Timespy 6506
It has been known in other forums for few years already...

I wonder why it only is said now...
Didn't the Seagate Barracuda 8Tb compute that I bought one of only come out recently?
 
Joined
Nov 18, 2010
Messages
7,106 (1.46/day)
Location
Rīga, Latvia
System Name HELLSTAR
Processor AMD RYZEN 9 5950X
Motherboard ASUS Strix X570-E
Cooling 2x 360 + 280 rads. 3x Gentle Typhoons, 3x Phanteks T30, 2x TT T140 . EK-Quantum Momentum Monoblock.
Memory 4x8GB G.SKILL Trident Z RGB F4-4133C19D-16GTZR 14-16-12-30-44
Video Card(s) Sapphire Pulse RX 7900XTX + under waterblock.
Storage Optane 900P[W11] + WD BLACK SN850X 4TB + 750 EVO 500GB + 1TB 980PRO[FEDORA]
Display(s) Philips PHL BDM3270 + Acer XV242Y
Case Lian Li O11 Dynamic EVO
Audio Device(s) Sound Blaster ZxR
Power Supply Fractal Design Newton R3 1000W
Mouse Razer Basilisk
Keyboard Razer BlackWidow V3 - Yellow Switch
Software FEDORA 39 / Windows 11 insider
Didn't the Seagate Barracuda 8Tb compute that I bought one of only come out recently?

Naah. It was at least 2 years going on. Mishmash of the same series of drives.
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
11,878 (2.31/day)
Location
Manchester uk
System Name RyzenGtEvo/ Asus strix scar II
Processor Amd R5 5900X/ Intel 8750H
Motherboard Crosshair hero8 impact/Asus
Cooling 360EK extreme rad+ 360$EK slim all push, cpu ek suprim Gpu full cover all EK
Memory Corsair Vengeance Rgb pro 3600cas14 16Gb in four sticks./16Gb/16GB
Video Card(s) Powercolour RX7900XT Reference/Rtx 2060
Storage Silicon power 2TB nvme/8Tb external/1Tb samsung Evo nvme 2Tb sata ssd/1Tb nvme
Display(s) Samsung UAE28"850R 4k freesync.dell shiter
Case Lianli 011 dynamic/strix scar2
Audio Device(s) Xfi creative 7.1 on board ,Yamaha dts av setup, corsair void pro headset
Power Supply corsair 1200Hxi/Asus stock
Mouse Roccat Kova/ Logitech G wireless
Keyboard Roccat Aimo 120
VR HMD Oculus rift
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores 8726 vega 3dmark timespy/ laptop Timespy 6506
Naah. It was at least 2 years going on. Mishmash of the same series of drives.
Fair enough I thought them newer, to be fair it's performance as a single drive as storage is pretty good /190Mb /sec , shame I won't be able to raid it though.
 

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
28,472 (4.25/day)
Location
Indiana, USA
Processor Intel Core i7 10850K@5.2GHz
Motherboard AsRock Z470 Taichi
Cooling Corsair H115i Pro w/ Noctua NF-A14 Fans
Memory 32GB DDR4-3600
Video Card(s) RTX 2070 Super
Storage 500GB SX8200 Pro + 8TB with 1TB SSD Cache
Display(s) Acer Nitro VG280K 4K 28"
Case Fractal Design Define S
Audio Device(s) Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply eVGA SuperNOVA 1000w G3
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
I don't really think this is as big of a deal as what WD did. With Seagate, these drives aren't supposed to be used in RAID arrays, so the SMR really doesn't matter. Yeah, you can argue that if you use one of these drives as a system drive, it can really slow the system down. But in this day an age, you shouldn't be using any HDD as a system drive, they all really slow the system down. Worst case, buy an cheap 120GB SSD to run Windows on.

Yes, I know a lot of people install games and programs to HDDs and run those off of the HDD. And really, SMR drives work just fine for that. They all have a small part of the drive that is used as a traditional CMR drive to absorb small writes(kind of like a pseudo-SLC cache in an SSD). And even when that cache is full, the write speed is still fast enough to keep up with an internet connection if you are downloading a large game off Steam or something like that. And read speeds on these drives are normal just like any other HDD, it's only the writes that are slow. I've been using one as my programs/games drive in my AMD rig for years, and there was really only one time when I noticed slowness and that was when I was installing Adobe Suite from an external SSD. It took about double the time it normally takes to install to a hard drive.

On the other hand WD use SMR drives and labelled them for RAID/NAS use. This is a big no-no without actually telling the customer the drives are SMR. Using SMR drives in a RAID is fine if all the drives are SMR. But micing SMR and CMR drives can lead to problems. You need either all CMR or all SMR drives. Without proper labeling by WD, this becomes a nightmare.

The science behind the ability to do that must be interesting.

Not really, it should be pretty easy to do actually. With SMR, the write head is bigger than the tracks, lets assume it's 3 tracks wide. So when you write something to the drive, you have to write multiple tracks at once. This slows down write dramatically, because if you only need to write data to 1 of the tracks, you first have to read the data from the other 2 tracks, write the data from the other 2 tracks somewhere else temporarily(you can't store it in volatile RAM because it would risk data loss in a power failure), then write the data for all 3 tracks. So, say the write head is 3 tracks wide and it is a 6TB drive. The first 2TB is written by just writing one of the 3 tracks, the other 2 overlapping tracks aren't written. Once 2TB of the drive is use, the single tracks are full, it starts using SMR to write to the other overlapping tracks.
 
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
25,559 (6.52/day)
HDD wont die off, consumers will stop buying Seagate, while taking a closer look at WD for shady practices too.
Not gonna happen. Mass storage can not be done with SSD's, full stop, end of discussion. HDD's are useful and will remain so until solid state technology provides cost effective mass storage(2TB+). No SSD is currently going to replace my 8TB, 12TB, and 14TB drives. Just not gonna happen anytime soon.
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
8,115 (2.29/day)
Location
SE Michigan
System Name Dumbass
Processor AMD Ryzen 7800X3D
Motherboard ASUS TUF gaming B650
Cooling Artic Liquid Freezer 2 - 420mm
Memory G.Skill Sniper 32gb DDR5 6000
Video Card(s) GreenTeam 4070 ti super 16gb
Storage Samsung EVO 500gb & 1Tb, 2tb HDD, 500gb WD Black
Display(s) 1x Nixeus NX_EDG27, 2x Dell S2440L (16:9)
Case Phanteks Enthoo Primo w/8 140mm SP Fans
Audio Device(s) onboard (realtek?) - SPKRS:Logitech Z623 200w 2.1
Power Supply Corsair HX1000i
Mouse Steeseries Esports Wireless
Keyboard Corsair K100
Software windows 10 H
Benchmark Scores https://i.imgur.com/aoz3vWY.jpg?2
Not gonna happen. Mass storage can not be done with SSD's, full stop, end of discussion. HDD's are useful and will remain so until solid state technology provides cost effective mass storage(2TB+). No SSD is currently going to replace my 8TB, 12TB, and 14TB drives. Just not gonna happen anytime soon.
I wasnt implying that. I do agree with you here. I was purely referring to the brand.
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
451 (0.13/day)
System Name Marmo / Kanon
Processor Intel Core i7 9700K / AMD Ryzen 7 5800X
Motherboard Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro WiFi / X570S Aorus Pro AX
Cooling Noctua NH-U12S x 2
Memory Corsair Vengeance 32GB 2666-C16 / 32GB 3200-C16
Video Card(s) KFA2 RTX3070 Ti / Asus TUF RX 6800XT OC
Storage Samsung 970 EVO+ 1TB, 860 EVO 1TB / Samsung 970 Pro 1TB, 970 EVO+ 1TB
Display(s) Dell AW2521HFA / U2715H
Case Fractal Design Focus G / Pop Air RGB
Audio Device(s) Onboard / Creative SB ZxR
Power Supply SeaSonic Focus GX 650W / PX 750W
Mouse Logitech MX310 / G1
Keyboard Logitech G413 / G513
Software Win 11 Ent
The guys at Seagate probably thought desktop users wouldn't care/know about SMR and CMR. At least they've only messed up with their lower cost desktop drives. If this happened to their server/nas grade drives, there would be many upset customers.
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
8,115 (2.29/day)
Location
SE Michigan
System Name Dumbass
Processor AMD Ryzen 7800X3D
Motherboard ASUS TUF gaming B650
Cooling Artic Liquid Freezer 2 - 420mm
Memory G.Skill Sniper 32gb DDR5 6000
Video Card(s) GreenTeam 4070 ti super 16gb
Storage Samsung EVO 500gb & 1Tb, 2tb HDD, 500gb WD Black
Display(s) 1x Nixeus NX_EDG27, 2x Dell S2440L (16:9)
Case Phanteks Enthoo Primo w/8 140mm SP Fans
Audio Device(s) onboard (realtek?) - SPKRS:Logitech Z623 200w 2.1
Power Supply Corsair HX1000i
Mouse Steeseries Esports Wireless
Keyboard Corsair K100
Software windows 10 H
Benchmark Scores https://i.imgur.com/aoz3vWY.jpg?2
The guys at Seagate probably thought desktop users wouldn't care/know about SMR and CMR. At least they've only messed up with their lower cost desktop drives. If this happened to their server/nas grade drives, there would be many upset customers.
When they label a product "Entry-Level" its prolly a safe bet to assume its bottom of the line, super low budget manufactured item with short warranties... :shadedshu:

maybe not every brand does this, but I think its still safe to assume that
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2012
Messages
56 (0.01/day)
Not gonna happen. Mass storage can not be done with SSD's, full stop, end of discussion. HDD's are useful and will remain so until solid state technology provides cost effective mass storage(2TB+). No SSD is currently going to replace my 8TB, 12TB, and 14TB drives. Just not gonna happen anytime soon.

Depends on how many of these you can stack onto an addin card :D
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
20,709 (3.41/day)
System Name Pioneer
Processor Ryzen R9 7950X
Motherboard GIGABYTE Aorus Elite X670 AX
Cooling Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory 64GB (4x 16GB) G.Skill Flare X5 @ DDR5-6000 CL30
Video Card(s) XFX RX 7900 XTX Speedster Merc 310
Storage 2x Crucial P5 Plus 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs
Display(s) 55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display
Case Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s) TOSLINK->Schiit Modi MB->Asgard 2 DAC Amp->AKG Pro K712 Headphones or HDMI->B9 OLED
Power Supply FSP Hydro Ti Pro 850W
Mouse Logitech G305 Lightspeed Wireless
Keyboard WASD Code v3 with Cherry Green keyswitches
Software Windows 11 Enterprise (legit), Gentoo Linux x64
HDD wont die off, consumers will stop buying Seagate, while taking a closer look at WD for shady practices too.

I don't get why Seagate has the bad rep around here. There are certainly no reliable stats to back it, and as per this very article, this is an industry wide problem.

I know their early perpindicular recording drives had issues, but that was nearly a decade ago, now.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.65/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
Seagate clearly labels SMR drives for archival use:
Exos 5E8 (Formerly Archive HDD v3)
Perfect for Archival data
Exos 5E8 is designed to best perform when write workloads are primarily sequential in nature. For more random write workloads, we recommend Exos 7E8.

I believe that is the only Exos (enterprise) product that uses SMR. They can be RAID'd for redundancy but don't expect them to random write very well...and Seagate says that:
"Best-Fit Applications"
"Low random-write workloads"
 
Last edited:

newtekie1

Semi-Retired Folder
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
28,472 (4.25/day)
Location
Indiana, USA
Processor Intel Core i7 10850K@5.2GHz
Motherboard AsRock Z470 Taichi
Cooling Corsair H115i Pro w/ Noctua NF-A14 Fans
Memory 32GB DDR4-3600
Video Card(s) RTX 2070 Super
Storage 500GB SX8200 Pro + 8TB with 1TB SSD Cache
Display(s) Acer Nitro VG280K 4K 28"
Case Fractal Design Define S
Audio Device(s) Onboard is good enough for me
Power Supply eVGA SuperNOVA 1000w G3
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
I don't get why Seagate has the bad rep around here. There are certainly no reliable stats to back it, and as per this very article, this is an industry wide problem.

I know their early perpindicular recording drives had issues, but that was nearly a decade ago, now.

People like to use those useless Backblaze reports as a reason too. You know, the ones where they didn't even bother to include some WD models in the reports because they had 100% failure rates, where they don't use the drives for the intended purposes, and where what they consider a failure isn't really a failure.
 

KiloGramm

New Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2020
Messages
1 (0.00/day)
Seagate clearly labels SMR drives for archival use:
Exos 5E8 (Formerly Archive HDD v3)
Perfect for Archival data


I believe that is the only Exos (enterprise) product that uses SMR. They can be RAID'd for redundancy but don't expect them to random write very well...and Seagate says that:
"Best-Fit Applications"
"Low random-write workloads"

It's frustrating.
I agree that on the BarraCuda Compute data sheet the recording tech is not clearly communicated.
But that is not the case for Exos Enterprise series. When IT professionals cannot read data sheets and specification sheets, it's their fault.

Since 2017, Seagate's datasheet of Exos 5E8 series state that:
A. "Exos 5E8 ensures archival data confidence with a reliable, low-power data retrieval based on Shingled Magnetic Recording (SMR) technology for..."
B. "Exos 5E8 hard drives are not intended for surveillance or NAS applications, and you may experience lower performance in these environments."

Additionally, since at least November 2016 (when a new logo for BarraCuda, emerged) their respective specification sheet (aka User Manual), state on Recording Technology section, as TGMR (Tunneling Giant Magneto-Resistance) and not Perpendicular as on Exos 7E8 specification sheet.

See for yourself: Data Sheet Exos 5E8, Specifications Sheet - Exos 5E8, Data Sheet - Exos 7E8, Specifiactions Sheet - Exos 7E8, Specifications Sheet - BarraCuda Compute
 
Top