India and Taiwan Working Towards $7.5 billion Chip Plant Deal

[TheLostSwede]

There's no secret that Taiwan has been looking at expanding its chip production to other nations, with TSMC having agreed to build a plant in Arizona, while also discussing the subject with the EU. Now it looks like a deal is being worked out with India to build further chip plants there, although it's not clear who the intended manufacturer will be, as TSMC isn't mentioned in the report by Bloomberg.

However, the piece mentions 5G devices and components for electric cars, which suggests that it might not be a cutting edge node we're looking at here, but rather something a bit more conservative like 28 or 14 nm. India would make sense in many ways, but the obvious concern once again is water supply, although so far no exact location has been mentioned for the placement of the fab.



Considering that more and more electronics are being manufactured in India, especially for the local market, this move makes a lot of sense, as it could save a lot of money for the foundry and its partners in the long term. On top of that, there are the current tensions between India and China, which has made Chinese products less popular with the local population. There are a few missing factors though, like chip testing and packaging facilities and obviously qualified staff.

India is currently importing some US$24 billion worth of semiconductors and this is estimated to more than quadruple by 2025. The upside for Taiwan is that this could both free up space in local fabs for new customers or additional production for existing customers, but also to make sure that it doesn't put all its eggs in one basket. With the recent water shortages in Taiwan, it also makes sense to spread out the production globally, even though TSMC has spent a lot of money and resources on improving its water conservation and recycling facilities. Time will tell what comes of the negotiations, but it seems like a mutually beneficial deal.

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[Sybaris_Caesar]

Good luck TSMC! You need it with all the bureaucratic red tape and gifts and all.

 

[R0H1T]

although it's not clear who the intended manufacturer will be

TATA (group) from what I remember.

 

[Bomby569]

TSMC is the problem right now. We needed more companies besides them and Samsung, more competition, we can't be reliable upon 2 companies, especially with TSMC doing so much at once.
But i guess more plants is better then nothing.

 

[Vayra86]

TATA (group) from what I remember.

The way Tata Steel in the Netherlands has been operating this is a very typical NIMBY situation right here. We'll keep ASML, okay?

Here's a quick look, and this is live and ongoing, and it shows how corrupt and deep the rabbit hole really is. The background is that Tata Steel is having some global issues with Europe steel production front and center. You only need to look at the chronological order below...

 

[chaosmassive]

TSMC will become powerful political tools of Taiwan to fend off China overwhelmingly power, and also India and China has clash over the border many months ago,
this will have a potential to become one of Taiwan economic ally for years to come.

 

[joemama]

TSMC is the problem right now. We needed more companies besides them and Samsung, more competition, we can't be reliable upon 2 companies, especially with TSMC doing so much at once.
But i guess more plants is better then nothing.

It's always easy to say than do, without enough knowledge of the wafer process, a shit ton of fund and probably some luck, no company can easily reach TSMC and Samsung's progress in wafer processing development

 

[Shihab]

On one hand, I like my chips spicy, on the other, uncle Xi won't like this...

 

[R-T-B]

On one hand, I like my chips spicy, on the other, uncle Xi won't like this...

Nacho dorrito chip with extra salsa...

 

[Shou Miko]

Nacho dorrito chip with extra salsa...

I though it was gonna be fishy sauce for uncle Xi

 

[FreedomEclipse]

*VERY ANGRY CHINA NOISES*

 

[R0H1T]

I though it was gonna be fishy sauce for uncle Xi

Only if it has an even spread of Mercury & lead in it

The way Tata Steel in the Netherlands has been operating this is a very typical NIMBY situation right here. We'll keep ASML, okay?

I don't understand & no I'm not a fan Of Jon Snow Slow

 

[Vayra86]

Only if it has an even spread of Mercury & lead in it

I don't understand & no I'm not a fan Of Jon Snow Slow

What don't you understand? NIMBY? (Not In My Back Yard) or ASML (chip machine company)?
Or what Tata is doing in NL? (Search results below my initial post)

 

[R0H1T]

Never heard of this thing NIMBY, as for ASML what's the relevance here? If you're worried about ASML then don't because chances of it being acquired by say Tatas is near zero as the EU/US govts will not allow it!

Here's a quick look, and this is live and ongoing, and it shows how corrupt and deep the rabbit hole really is.

Yes it is but from what I know of Tata group is that among the innumerable shady corporates & stan worshipping megacorps ~ they're one of the least worst, which admittedly is no consolation!

 

[Sybaris_Caesar]

It's always easy to say than do, without enough knowledge of the wafer process, a shit ton of fund and probably some luck, no company can easily reach TSMC and Samsung's progress in wafer processing development

Yeah. And even Samsung is mulling selling off their foundry business since the ROI is too low compared to their other business.

 

[Vayra86]

Never heard of this thing NIMBY, as for ASML what's the relevance here? If you're worried about ASML then don't because chances of it being acquired by say Tatas is near zero as the EU/US govts will not allow it!

Yes it is but from what I know of Tata group is that among the innumerable shady corporates & stan worshipping megacorps ~ they're one of the least worst, which admittedly is no consolation!

Maybe its a Dutch thing to use NIMBY abbreviation like that. Its a common thing over here. We want all the good stuff but no hassle from it At the same time its true for everyone. Nobody likes to live underneath coal plants or mass pollution.

As for ASML, mostly referring to the idea that we're doing 'our part' in global chip production, put those chip plants elsewhere thx We even have water shortages as it is, and data center growth is also a growing issue for much the same reasons. Yes. Water shortages in a country that's known for excesses of water.

 

[R0H1T]

ROI is too low compared

That's only initially though, with fast approaching limits of physics, but fabs are the things that will continue to yield them massive revenue & profits for decades to come! We still have 28nm, 45nm, 65nm, 90nm fabs being used. Heck IIRC TSMC has more volume (revenue?) from the non leading edge nodes than the ones like 5nm or 7nm. And over time the profits will only increase.

 

[Hardware Geek]

Maybe its a Dutch thing to use NIMBY abbreviation like that. Its a common thing over here. We want all the good stuff but no hassle from it At the same time its true for everyone. Nobody likes to live underneath coal plants or mass pollution.

As for ASML, mostly referring to the idea that we're doing 'our part' in global chip production, put those chip plants elsewhere thx We even have water shortages as it is, and data center growth is also a growing issue for much the same reasons. Yes. Water shortages in a country that's known for excesses of water.

NIMBY is a pretty common term used in the US as well, although it generally is used in reference to poor people and people of color.

 

[Shihab]

Nacho dorrito chip with extra salsa...

Dunno. Not a big fan of Intel these days...

 

[mechtech]

obvious concern once again is water supply, although so far no exact location has been mentioned for the placement of the fab.

They are surrounded by water

 

[heinztvoert]

Funny how the mention water supply, yet they build plant in Arizona (yes, yes because Arizona is well know globally for having abundant water supply). As for India, they get the monsoons and have available water (for now) the issue to me would be quality - I don't think they can simply grab it from the Ganges and run it through the plants.
Whomever, whatever country has water resources in the future will be the place to want to do business, every manufacturing process we do requires large amounts of water.

 

[Bomby569]

Funny how the mention water supply, yet they build plant in Arizona (yes, yes because Arizona is well know globally for having abundant water supply). As for India, they get the monsoons and have available water (for now) the issue to me would be quality - I don't think they can simply grab it from the Ganges and run it through the plants.
Whomever, whatever country has water resources in the future will be the place to want to do business, every manufacturing process we do requires large amounts of water.

you can recycle and reuse the water, it has to be in very short supply like in Taiwan to be a problem, but i've seen lawns in Arizona so this shoudn't be a problem in great American style. As for India you can and should treat the water, it's not that bad, there are worst places like in Flint Michigan or the water that catches fire in some other places.

 

[prtskg]

This deal will be profitable for both India and Taiwan. AFAIK, there's no commercial fab available in India and that's a country with almost 1.4 billion people. So lots of opportunities. GOI also wants a local fab to cater to security needs. Taiwan in turn gains an ally against China and money from a market of 1.4 billion.

 

[Shihab]

Funny how the mention water supply, yet they build plant in Arizona (yes, yes because Arizona is well know globally for having abundant water supply). As for India, they get the monsoons and have available water (for now) the issue to me would be quality - I don't think they can simply grab it from the Ganges and run it through the plants.

Having a specific amount of rainfall does not necessarily linearly translate to an equivalent amount of readily available water for all values of rainfall, sadly. Temporal and spatial distribution of said precipitation, as well as the topography and geology of each basin can make it difficult and -sometimes prohibitively- expensive to harvest this precipitation in any scale large enough to be considered for industry or agriculture.

There is also the matter of population. IIRC, India has much, much more water resources than we do here (like trillions compared to billions!), yet once you normalize these values for population, they drop to something -by comparison- very close to each other. And boy do we have water scarcity here!

Whomever, whatever country has water resources in the future will be the place to want to do business, every manufacturing process we do requires large amounts of water.

It depends on how you look at it...
Not all industrial use is consumptive, and water requirements for industry aren't the same as the ones for agriculture of domestic use. Water reuse is possible, though admittedly, this is a tricky subject.

There is also the matter of budget reallocation. Some country could be exhausting all of its water in agriculture, but decide to switch from being a banana republic a primarily agriculture-based economy and nix some non-essential crops in favour of some industry and a few power plants. That is, of course, provided that the said country can afford to do so. One struggling to feed its population may not fit the criteria.

This last part *may* be a reason to justify whether to invest in one country or not; a country that is self-sufficient in food and whose population aren't at each others' throats due to some issue related to water (in other words: a stable country) would be a much safer bet to invest in, though that would be more of a correlation (between water availability and feasibility of doing business) than a causation.

 

[Vayra86]

Water is going to be the next fuel battle, mark my words. Sooner rather than later, and for some regions its already a daily struggle. But even regions usually not short of water are going to have issues, and its always industrial/agricultural influence. Something we're unlikely to be doing less of, but we're not getting more water supply.

And it was predicted in gaming a looong time ago