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Editorial Intel CEO Writes Opinion Piece on CNN Asking For Government Support

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The last sentence of that article kinda sums it all up. Reminds me of the situation with Ukrainian power grid infrastructure. Govt. had grand plans for total infrastructure overhaul, but when it came to power grid - companies[oligarchs] responded : "you want it - you pay for it". The initial plan was to make consumers pay for it directly (higher electricity cost), but the govt came up with insidious plan to incorporate it into taxes for SMB and still make consumers pay (indirectly), without even knowing about it.

You are thinking of it backwards. It's not about "being cheaper", it's about being able to "make", or at least "have" stuff. If you increase import taxes, it'll only make chips more expensive, because US still has no manufacturing capabilities to replace all of that silicon with all-'murican equivalent.
Another big part of that bill is having something akin to strategic reserves. So, if you have a big shortage like right now, you can strongarm companies to shift priorities. I've briefly glanced at the bill, and as far as I understand they don't care which company moves production to US, they only care about it being manufactured stateside. Intel is a bit sweaty, because that grant will prioritize the company that's willing to invest more of their own capital to make that happen. I can't find a link, but just a few weeks ago I stumbled upon one of the interveiws with TSMC exec about their plans on US manufacturing, and he said something along the lines: "Intel is investing a lot of money, but Intel is not investing enough". Pat is definitely getting saltier, cause their $44bn plan preemtively relied on these incentives, before there was any competition in the one-horse-race.
I might be very-very wrong [again], but I think this grand project is not as much about "Made in USA", but more about "Made for USA".

Couldn't read the whole 2300-sumptin' pages, but it's full of interesting things (especially Sec. 3213).
Chicken or the egg issue, but the chickens are laying eggs in other countries and selling them here for inflated profit margins that they aren't willing to reinvest into the demand side of the equasion, and the only way we can correct this is by artificially increasing the "cost" of the eggs shipped in to encourage the chickens to come home to roost.

Capitalism has helped more poor countries get their economies started and provided more humanitarian benefits by nature of altruistic investment than anything else, but when companies get that large and their eye is only on the bottom line they need to be smacked around some to prevent continued abuse, or they need to find a new manufacturing home to invest in. Intel needs land, water, shipping, some skilled workers, and political stability. Asia is headed for violence and political upheaval, then again so is the USA.
 
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be careful, next Joe Biden's thugs will be knocking on TPU's door saying "you're not communicating this story favorably enough". wouldn't want to paint his office as not being in favor of USA based companies by not giving them a break / additional support
quit fantisizing. The USA has a lot of problems but freedom of the press certainly isn't one of them.

I never knew that could be legal since it sounds like the definition of "ageism"
Ageism is not a crime like, anywhere.
 
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quit fantisizing. The USA has a lot of problems but freedom of the press certainly isn't one of them.


Ageism is not a crime like, anywhere.
Sharyl Attkisson, James Rosen, Tucker Carlson and James O'keefe along with all those AP reporters who had their phones tapped would disagree.
 
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Sharyl Attkisson, James Rosen, Tucker Carlson and James O'keefe along with all those AP reporters who had their phones tapped would disagree.
What's your source? Them? I mean given their role in certain happenings some of those may even be justified, but that's really beside the point.

The point is quit making a non political article political. I actually worked in the press, this articles still up, and I have an allergy for BS.
 
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What's your source? Them? I mean given their role in certain happenings some of those may even be justified, but that's really beside the point.

Quit making a non political article political. I actually worked in the press, this articles still up, and I have an allergy for BS.
I'll give you an internet pro tip which helps if you use google chrome. Drag your cursor over any of those names, right click 'search google'. After their name comes up in google search type spied on by government after their name and click search again. I remember watching the news in my apt. in Minsk back in '06 thinking to myself 'thank god this propaganda doesn't happen in the US'. Move the clock up to 2021 and here we are. And btw Intel warning the US govt. about its need for chips made in the US by a American owned foundries is political and justified.
 
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I'll give you an internet pro tip which helps if you use google chrome. Drag your cursor over any of those names, right click 'search google'. After their name comes up in google search type spied on by government after their name and click search again. I remember watching the news in my apt. in Minsk back in '06 thinking to myself 'thank god this propaganda doesn't happen in the US'. Move the clock up to 2021 and here we are. And btw Intel warning the US govt. about its need for chips made in the US by a American owned foundries is totally political.
So "google it" got it.
 
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Why should we subsidize Intel? I just don't see the overall plan panning out, they are unable to capitalize fab advancement due to their 12% world market position. They can't dominate the chip market based solely on their own architecture and designs. The need to sell their fabs out.

TSMC is selling their FABs out. Why doesn't Intel do the same? AMD already went through all of this, went on the verge of bankruptcy, sold their fabs, and went fabless. Intel needs to decide what they want to do.
Intel is planning to 'sell' their fabs out, as in be a Foundry too.

Plus, Patt Gelsinger never mentions subsiding Intel specifically but US Companies, which of course includes Intel, but it's a list far greater than that.
I think you're missing the issue here. Intel's CEO has quite a lot of responsibility as the CEO over the world's biggest x86/x64 CPU manufacturer and as a CEO you don't go out an trash a whole nation on some kind of tech conference, just because you're trying to win over support to your cause. How many other US or otherwise CEO's have you seen that have gone out and told an audience outside their company that a certain country is unstable and it might be a good idea to avoid making investments there, then turns around and sends over a team to negotiate with the biggest semiconductor manufacturer in that nation?
It's tactless at best and it's really kind of silly when Intel wants to make certain products at TSCM in Taiwan.
He is not lying about any of that. Taiwan is in a geopolitically unstable situation. Unless you are saying that there's no conflict there.

And they already produce the most out of any country So it wouldn't make sense even if we assume that there were no conflicts there.

Chips are also a strategic asset. So it would be like building your weapon factories in another country, where your (potential) enemy can strike it easily.

Or maybe Intel should just just stop playing coy about it and act like a responsible company, instead of making excuses as to why it wants a bigger share of the funds than it thinks its competitors deserve? I don't favour any of the semiconductor manufacturers, but most of the reasoning from Pat is just silly. There are so many better ways of asking for this money that are legit reasons, instead of what he's done for the past week.
First and foremost, shouldn't the most money go to the company that is willing to invest the most into new foundries on US soil in this instance?
If that is Intel, then there's no problem, but asking for money without even saying what it will be used for, seems like a cash grab.
You are being dishonest, he never asked for money specifically for Intel.
Did you even bother reading my reply?

The issue isn't the fact that the US government wants to give money to companies to build more fabs, the issue is that Pat is asking to be given more money, because reasons.
What makes Intel deserve more money than any other semiconductor company that wants to build a semiconductor fab on US soil?
Dishonest. Pat said that the money should go to US companies.
Which there are more than Intel, like Micron, ON Semiconductor, Texas Instruments, Applied Materials and etc.

Part of the rationale for that is logically because investments should prioritize national companies, as that's where you get the most benefits, due to a bigger portion of the money staying in your country.
You do projects with foreign companies when their conditions are just too much better than nationals or you have no national alternative.
And if a government want to give tax incentives to grow a certain industry, what's technically wrong with that? It's not like Taiwan in this case, is propping up TSMC, it's more likely the other way around.
If I'm not mistaken, both local and national US government organisations are giving tax incentives to win over businesses all the time.
Then what's wrong with what he is saying?
I believe that countries should be able to invest whenever they want, giving priorities to their local companies as those are their own citizens.

I reiterate that he doesn't say that the money should go to Intel as you said multiple times. He gave an example about Intel jobs and the mega fabs.
 

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I reiterate that he doesn't say that the money should go to Intel as you said multiple times. He gave an example about Intel jobs and the mega fabs.
Context is king. Why would the CEO of a company do this, if it wasn't to benefit the company itself?
You might disagree, but this is Intel trying to get as much money out of this as possible and nothing else.
 
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Context is king. Why would the CEO of a company do this, if it wasn't to benefit the company itself?
You might disagree, but this is Intel trying to get as much money out of this as possible and nothing else.
He is obviously not doing it for charity, but you are misrepresenting what he is saying.

As you implied several times that he want is the lion share of this to go to Intel.

Honestly, if we take a look in the CNN opinion piece itself(which you didn't link), we see that it's a bit different from what you describe.

The first selling point is a bit ridiculous, as he claims that each person that is hired by Intel, creates up to another 13 American jobs, although all these jobs are apparently in the services and supply business at other companies, not at Intel. This is supposedly because when Intel builds a fab, it's like building a small city, so in other words, if you build it, they will come seems to be the reasoning here.
Pat Gelsinger actually linked a report/research, so by saying it's ridiculous, you would have to dispute the claims made there.

The claims do make some sense, as if Intel is building a fab, they will need an increased amount of supplies so the suppliers will have to hire more people. The 'small city' comment is probably because it's preferable for those suppliers to build next to the fab.

It's the same logic/reasoning of how something like investing in railways or whatever.

In addition, you never clarify on "why it's a bit ridiculous". You are just telling the readers to feel that way and hope they don't think on it too deeply.

The second argument is about how it's not profitable for US companies to manufacture semiconductors domestically, which again seems like a very odd reasoning, since if that was true, how come Intel is still in business, considering they're the largest semiconductor manufacturer in the US. Someone at Intel has worked out that US foundries have a 30 percent cost disadvantage versus Asian based foundries, which may or may not be true. Regardless, he goes on to further state that the US has gone from making 37 percent to only 12 percent of all semiconductors in the world from 1990 to 2020, with Europe dropping from 44 percent to a mere 9 percent in the same time period. As such, the US government should step up and help balance things, if for no other reason than the fact that the EU has agreed on its own Chips Act.
The same thing as the first one, especially this
Someone at Intel has worked out that US foundries have a 30 percent cost disadvantage versus Asian based foundries, which may or may not be true
That's not true. Pat Gelsinger is talking about(and he has linked) a report from that SIA(the semiconductors association founded in 2020) made together with a consulting group.

Have a link to it:


Secondly is that yourself said that Intel has fabs in other regions too and note that it's a competitive advantage, even if it's true, it doesn't mean that Intel would go bankrupt or leave the business as you are implying.

About the EU Chip Act, he was just giving an example of how Europe and other countries are reacting to the situation. Note that he mentions China in the same paragraph.

Gelsinger also seems to be upset that the PRC (...)
No, this is all that he said about China

and China alone is investing $150 billion in semiconductors in the coming years.
At no other point, does he say anything that would indicate that he is upset or so. In addition, the fact that his numbers are outdated and that China has invested more than that does nothing to the reasoning that he presented. You might have a point if the PRC decided to greatly reduce the investment or stop it altogether, but they didn't.

And etc, etc. I am not going to sit here all day and point everything wrong that you said in this editorial(which wasn't marked as one when it was posted).
 

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Wow, so much trashing, so little actually looking.
Capture.PNG


Right, so we're supposed to trust Intel research about how great Intel is att giving non Intel people jobs in unrelated businesses? Sure, whatever...

Railways in the 1800's are nothing like Intel building a fab in the 2020's, please...

So a US based industry association wouldn't fiddle the numbers to suit the situation? I mean, the same would apply for any industry association in any country, it's their job to create reports that tilt one way or another.
It's also funny that it's always a disadvantage when it affects a company in a negative way, but it's perfectly fine for the same company to take advantage of these low cost nations when it suits them. We're back at the cake and eating it or having it.

I never implied that Intel would go bankrupt, I have no idea where you pulled that one from. Have you looked at how many business units Intel has sold off over the past few years? Successful business units mind you. So they are clearly very good at leaving various businesses by their own accord.

The upset part is fairly obvious, since the US government is "only" providing $52 billion, whereas the PRC government is investing almost 3x as much. I think that would make most people in a similar situation upset and wonder why can't my government do the same.

Again, you accuse me of things, yet come up with reasoning that either is false, or links to information that is anything but facts, but hey, whatever, I don't need to justify myself to you at the end of the day. If you have a problem, take it up with management, at the end of the day, they're the ones that decide about the content here. You could always ask for your subscription money back...
 
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Doesn’t Intel make enough profits on their own to do this??

If a fab is built with tax dollars then it should be an independent fab and profits should go back into the country, perhaps education system so can keep advancing the fab?

maybe more competition is what Intel really needs?
 
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Wow, so much trashing, so little actually looking.

View attachment 228362
Fair enough about the link. That was my mistake.
Right, so we're supposed to trust Intel research about how great Intel is att giving non Intel people jobs in unrelated businesses? Sure, whatever...
Then argue against the research. I don't see you presenting any numbers.
I have never said that the research is right or wrong. But that you are misrepresenting Pat Gelsinger.
Railways in the 1800's are nothing like Intel building a fab in the 2020's, please...
And? That's just an analogy of large investments being able to bring more jobs than just the direct one itself.
So a US based industry association wouldn't fiddle the numbers to suit the situation? I mean, the same would apply for any industry association in any country, it's their job to create reports that tilt one way or another.
I am not saying that they are right or wrong.
But, it's certainly not "Someone at Intel has worked out that US foundries have a 30 percent cost disadvantage versus Asian based foundries". Which is what you wrote.

You are also just saying that they are wrong because they have an agenda. They certainly have, but it doesn't mean that they are wrong.
I don't know about the specific numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were cost advantages due to those subsidies, incentives, tax breaks and etc etc.
China has been investing in this for a long time.

But this is beside the point.
It's also funny that it's always a disadvantage when it affects a company in a negative way, but it's perfectly fine for the same company to take advantage of these low cost nations when it suits them. We're back at the cake and eating it or having it.
Right. I am not saying that the company is morally justified or anything. They can be a shitty company and your opinion piece also be similarly bad too.
I never implied that Intel would go bankrupt, I have no idea where you pulled that one from. Have you looked at how many business units Intel has sold off over the past few years? Successful business units mind you. So they are clearly very good at leaving various businesses by their own accord.
See
(...) how come Intel is still in business (...)
You are implying that if that was true(the cost advantage), then how is Intel still in business? As they are the biggest US manufacturer.

For me, the implication is that they would be bankrupt or outside of the business.
Otherwise, what are you saying there? Literally, nothing since if there isn't such implication then the phrase has no meaning.
The upset part is fairly obvious, since the US government is "only" providing $52 billion, whereas the PRC government is investing almost 3x as much. I think that would make most people in a similar situation upset and wonder why can't my government do the same.
That's your complete conjecture. Even if he is upset about it,
Again, you accuse me of things, yet come up with reasoning that either is false, or links to information that is anything but facts, but hey, whatever, I don't need to justify myself to you at the end of the day. If you have a problem, take it up with management, at the end of the day, they're the ones that decide about the content here. You could always ask for your subscription money back...
No, I am just presenting information that was in the CNN opinion piece, but that you ignored instead rephrasing it in a way that's way worse.

And lol at the 'take it up to the management.
 
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And etc, etc. I am not going to sit here all day and point everything wrong that you said in this editorial(which wasn't marked as one when it was posted).
I've noticed the same and double checked it just to be safe.

It's better late than never, I guess. Passing TheLostSwede's anti-Intel and implicitly pro-TSMC rambling opinion piece as news was a tad too much.
Doesn’t Intel make enough profits on their own to do this??

If a fab is built with tax dollars then it should be an independent fab and profits should go back into the country, perhaps education system so can keep advancing the fab?

maybe more competition is what Intel really needs?
It's been already mentioned in some comments buried in the previous pages, but there's pretty much a large consensus in favour of the CHIPS Act in the Congress, so tax dollars are going to private companies no matter what. Gelsinger in his opinion piece implied that it should be used to lift American companies, Intel is incorporated in Delaware, rather than simply focusing on the increasing of the US-based production of semiconductors. The logic is that Asian based companies, including TSMC and Samsung, have for decades received support from their state's governments, TSMC was actually co-founded by the Taiwanese government, so it's time for the USA to draw its own industrial policy in order to support its domestic firms. Of course it's pure lobbying, but it's at best disingenuous to imply that only Intel begs for money and protection from its national government because they're pushing for it publicly, while the rest of the industry, in particular the Asian part of the industry, hasn't ever taken a single penny.

EDIT: At any rate we could end up with less competition, not more, if nothing is done from both the private and public sector, TSMC already holds something close to a monopoly in the newest production nodes. What should be done, no matter the choice on who should receive the money, is making sure that those tax dollars are matched with investments from the private sector and they're not used to save money that is used for other purposes (like buybacks).
 
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Intel is no longer on top and is unable to compete from a second or third tier position. Capitalism says they should get smaller and or go out of business if they cannot make enough profit to stay in business or grow. A company that used anti competitive techniques bordering on criminal behavior in the past should not get one iota of help from anyone. I hate too big to fail and society has voted with its dollars to uplift Intel’s competitors for making better products. Therefore Intel lost its dominate position and rightfully so. Now we are gonna have to vote in elections to make sure they don’t get government bailouts for their poor business decisions and executive golden parachutes.
Countries like China and South Korea has set the standard for governments funding semiconductor companies within the WTO zone.

Within WTO zone, Libertarian small government ideals doesn't work when a major country like China doesn't believe it. Blame Bush/Clintons and CCP apologists in the US that argued for the failed "open China" regime change experiment.

From https://medium.com/discourse/tsmc-the-taiwanese-titan-be0774531bb

In the 1970s and 1980s, the Taiwanese government gave the semiconductor industry strategic priority for development.

Historical context is important. There's a reason why USSR was trade blocked from western markets.

Try again.
 
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