Phison Showcases 12 GB/s Speeds for PCIe 5.0 SSDs Through Its New E26 Controller

[Deleted member 24505]

No random 4kQD1 performance increase= No performance increase.

Intel Optane will still be the performance king for years to come.

Yeah and the price retard

I think Mick Hart ripped on these types frequently over in the UK. I call those guys "bicep boys" or "chest brahs". When it comes to strength & functionality, your legs, hips, and core(abs) are more important. Neglect any of those, and it won't matter what you do with your upper body. Sure, the upper body will look nice, but the overall appearance will be a golf tee that has much less strength unless you bury the individual in the ground from the feet up to their waist.

I cycle for my legs, and know for a fact that most women don't even like the meat heads who care more for the way their bodies look than their girlfriends, women prefer the dad bod.

 

[Minus Infinity]

This card is so slow, we just had one announced the other week with 13000MB/s read and 12000MB/s writes. That's a huge difference. Oh man my real world experience is going to be so much better with PCI-E 5 drives.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

This kinda reminds me of internet connections. Some people have 1000Mb/s connection and use it for online gaming and youtube. Some of my friends have even 500Mb/s lines and i still don't really see why, anyone need that much speed.

These PCIe 5 drives are going to be a bit pointless really imo. A fast PCIe gen 4 drive is plenty fast enough imo. It's the same as when ADL came out and everyone pooed at Intel for putting a PCIe 5 GPU slot now AAMD are doing the same without there even been any video cards that support it. I suppose you can use it for expensive first gen PCIe 5 SSDs though at least.

 

[R0H1T]

Well these (premium) things are one of the reasons service providers or brands can charge extra whilst offering other stuff at (semi)decent prices! Pretty sure the margins at the low end with SATA or QLC drives are wafer thin, these drives allow manufacturers to continue selling those cheaper models

 

[mechtech]

Well hopefully when DirectStorage starts getting implemented and improved we will see the difference in games.

Yep. One can always hope. I give it 5 more years at least

 

[Mussels]

That is so common in gyms here, people just work on upper body while having chicken legs.

as someone with the legs of an adult who grew up without a car in a farm area with calves the size of cows... fucksake it's hard to find pants that fit.
Getting your legs stuck in pants is just... so special.
(And no it's not an obesity thing, just that for 5 years or so i was riding 15KM to work, working in tobacco fields and vineyards, and then riding home)


So the real reason RAND4K is slow is because phison cant find pats that fit

 

[TheUn4seen]

This kinda reminds me of internet connections. Some people have 1000Mb/s connection and use it for online gaming and youtube. Some of my friends have even 500Mb/s lines and i still don't really see why, anyone need that much speed.

These PCIe 5 drives are going to be a bit pointless really imo. A fast PCIe gen 4 drive is plenty fast enough imo. It's the same as when ADL came out and everyone pooed at Intel for putting a PCIe 5 GPU slot now AAMD are doing the same without there even been any video cards that support it. I suppose you can use it for expensive first gen PCIe 5 SSDs though at least.

The number is higher, isn't it? Marketing people only care about being able to put big, flashy numbers on a website and pay some influencers to fake excitement about how "OMG lightning fast it is". Put a "GAMING" on it just to be sure. Real world advantages are just a boring, technical stuff no self-respecting consumer understands or cares about.
Personally I'd be infinitely more excited about high capacity cheap SSDs. A manufacturer of a reasonably priced 10TB SSD would absolutely get my money - make it 3.5" and SATA to cut costs, I don't care. I just want to get rid of the unreliable and noisy spinning rust nonsense from my life.

 

[Tomorrow]

Are you talking about 3DXpoint?

Yes. I refer to it as Optane because it easier to spell than 3DXpoint and since no one else is making 3DXpoint based products other than Intel under Optane branding. The same way i refer to Ryzen instead of Zen despite Zen being the underlying architecture.

 

[chrcoluk]

Ok so my orginal thought in the other thread wasnt wrong the connector does change on the wider pcb, thats dumb then.

The most impressive thing from this showcase to me is they got a toolless install for the m.2.

The number is higher, isn't it? Marketing people only care about being able to put big, flashy numbers on a website and pay some influencers to fake excitement about how "OMG lightning fast it is". Put a "GAMING" on it just to be sure. Real world advantages are just a boring, technical stuff no self-respecting consumer understands or cares about.
Personally I'd be infinitely more excited about high capacity cheap SSDs. A manufacturer of a reasonably priced 10TB SSD would absolutely get my money - make it 3.5" and SATA to cut costs, I don't care. I just want to get rid of the unreliable and noisy spinning rust nonsense from my life.

As we see with 500hz monitors, marketing rules the roost, as you said bigger numbers.

 

[Wirko]

Ok so my orginal thought in the other thread wasnt wrong the connector does change on the wider pcb, thats dumb then.

It doesn't, what makes you think it does? It would no longer be "M.2" with a different connector.

EDIT: If the connector is indeed wider, it should at least be backwards compatible (Gen 5 slot, Gen 4 SSD) ...

Also, is space on (some or many) motherboards, or PCIe adapter cards, so constrained that a 3 mm wider PCB wouldn't fit in its place?

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

So the real reason RAND4K is slow is because phison cant find pats that fit

pants?

EDIT: If the connector is indeed wider, it should at least be backwards compatible (Gen 5 slot, Gen 4 SSD) ...

I disagree, Gen 5 should make a clean break.

 

[Tomorrow]

The PCB is wider (25mm instead on 22mm). The connector itself is the same.
So on a bare PCB there should be no restrictions mounting 25mm to a 22mm slot.
However on boards where 22mm wide spacing is assumed by motherboard covers there may be compatibility problems going forward.

 

[Kapone33]

There must be a way to incorporate the innovations from Optane into the current NVME space. Sequential currently only makes sense if you have EPIC or make videos. We need to see improvement in regular workloads.

 

[Metroid]

Prepare for a wave of drives that can flex its sequentials, but barely top randoms.

Disgraceful, although sequential is good for few things, nothing is better than 4k random read and write at moment for true speed.

 

[Assimilator]

as someone with the legs of an adult who grew up without a car in a farm area with calves the size of cows... fucksake it's hard to find pants that fit.
Getting your legs stuck in pants is just... so special.
(And no it's not an obesity thing, just that for 5 years or so i was riding 15KM to work, working in tobacco fields and vineyards, and then riding home)


So the real reason RAND4K is slow is because phison cant find pats that fit

Bro, do you even lift?

 

[R-T-B]

Didn't some companies experiment with Z-NAND and XL-NAND?

I don't know about XL-NAND, but Z-NAND evolved into the 3d stacking tech everyone uses today.

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

Bro, do you even lift?

Does 12 ounces at a time count? 3D stacking x2 is the call.

 

[Mussels]

Bro, do you even lift?

These sequential rides are giving my lower back some fragmentation issues, so my lift speeds pretty low


As much as this tech annoys me by changing the dimensions, at least its fully backwards compatible and not REQUIRED to be wider - we might get lucky with fat 5.0's in 4.0 devices, if theres enough clearance


If the electrical connector is changed and it stops being compatible, i'll have a tantrum

 

[Deleted member 24505]

If RND4k is so important over SEQ speed, then these Gen 5 drives are irrelevant till the RND4k speeds are increased.

Why are they even so low? is it something to do with the interface or OS or what?

 

[Chrispy_]

If RND4k is so important over SEQ speed, then these Gen 5 drives are irrelevant till the RND4k speeds are increased.

Why are they even so low? is it something to do with the interface or OS or what?

It's to do with the access latency; Memory stored on an Optane drive is essentially raw access - the Optane controller can stream data off the 3D XPoint dies like a CPUs IMC can stream data off DRAM. We're talking 10 microseconds of delay from request to data arrival.

SSDs are more complex beasts, their controllers do parity and error-checking, encryption, compression/decompression, and now conversion from SLC to TLC/QLC all simultaneously. Even the highest-grade NAND is riddled with manufacturing defects so the controllers have to work around these. NAND is fragile with limited program/erase cycles and so minimising the amount and number of times written to it is vital. All of this NAND management to compensate for flaws in the technology takes time so a good SSD controller is 50x slower than Optane, with the best controllers on the market barely able to break 500microseconds in a best-case scenario.

If they wanted to, companies like Samsung could make NAND controllers that were lightning fast like Optane but they'd wear out the NAND in a couple of weeks and the data would be constantly corrupting - you'd be lucky to get back what you put in most of the time. So realistically, the NAND management required to make NAND a viable storage technology is enormously complex, and cannot be omitted. Until flawless yields of 100,000 P/E-cycle NAND that have near-zero defects are common, we're going to have this 0.5-1.0ms latency on SSDs that caps IOPS and 4K performance.

 

[AlwaysHope]

Have to wait literally years for game devs to catch up with this tech, they still have not optimised for PCIe v4.0 yet in current game engines.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

It's to do with the access latency; Memory stored on an Optane drive is essentially raw access - the Optane controller can stream data off the 3D XPoint dies like a CPUs IMC can stream data off DRAM. We're talking 10 microseconds of delay from request to data arrival.

SSDs are more complex beasts, their controllers do parity and error-checking, encryption, compression/decompression, and now conversion from SLC to TLC/QLC all simultaneously. Even the highest-grade NAND is riddled with manufacturing defects so the controllers have to work around these. NAND is fragile with limited program/erase cycles and so minimising the amount and number of times written to it is vital. All of this NAND management to compensate for flaws in the technology takes time so a good SSD controller is 50x slower than Optane, with the best controllers on the market barely able to break 500microseconds in a best-case scenario.

If they wanted to, companies like Samsung could make NAND controllers that were lightning fast like Optane but they'd wear out the NAND in a couple of weeks and the data would be constantly corrupting - you'd be lucky to get back what you put in most of the time. So realistically, the NAND management required to make NAND a viable storage technology is enormously complex, and cannot be omitted. Until flawless yields of 100,000 P/E-cycle NAND that have near-zero defects are common, we're going to have this 0.5-1.0ms latency on SSDs that caps IOPS and 4K performance.

So is the memory on Optane unlimited writes like normal ram?

I guess we will be stuck with slow RND4K for a long time by the looks of it.

EDIT

Have to say the load times on Sniper Elite 5 are the quickest i have seen for a long time, the game is on one of my WD SN850's

 

[Chrispy_]

So is the memory on Optane unlimited writes like normal ram?

I guess we will be stuck with slow RND4K for a long time by the looks of it.

EDIT

Have to say the load times on Sniper Elite 5 are the quickest i have seen for a long time, the game is on one of my WD SN850's

Yeah, if you're unsure on how Optane works it's worth going back to the deep dives on the original 900P reviews.
It's not quite RAM, but it shares much more in common with RAM than it does with NAND, including the cost per gigabyte

 

[chrcoluk]

It doesn't, what makes you think it does? It would no longer be "M.2" with a different connector.

EDIT: If the connector is indeed wider, it should at least be backwards compatible (Gen 5 slot, Gen 4 SSD) ...

Also, is space on (some or many) motherboards, or PCIe adapter cards, so constrained that a 3 mm wider PCB wouldn't fit in its place?

Me reading the first post. I will quote the relevant part.

Interestingly, Phison opted for the M.2 2580 form-factor for its proof-of-concept SSD, which features a slightly wider PCB and connector footprint that's not backwards compatible with M.2 2280 slots.

 

[MentalAcetylide]

as someone with the legs of an adult who grew up without a car in a farm area with calves the size of cows... fucksake it's hard to find pants that fit.
Getting your legs stuck in pants is just... so special.
(And no it's not an obesity thing, just that for 5 years or so i was riding 15KM to work, working in tobacco fields and vineyards, and then riding home)


So the real reason RAND4K is slow is because phison cant find pats that fit

At that point, I would start wearing bell-bottom pants or hire a taylor. Its no joke wearing pants that are too tight on the lower extremities. That is the making of DVTs & PEs