AMD "Phoenix Point" Zen 4 Mobile Processor Powered Up

[btarunr]

An engineering sample of AMD's next-generation Ryzen "Phoenix Point" mobile processor has been powered up, and made its first appearance on the Geekbench user-database. "Phoenix Point" is a monolithic silicon mobile processor built on the TSMC N5 (5 nm EUV) process, featuring "Zen 4" CPU cores, and a significantly faster iGPU based on the RDNA3 graphics architecture; along with a DDR5/LPDDR5 memory interface, and PCI-Express Gen 5.0 capability. An engineering sample with an 8-core/16-thread CPU, with the OPN code "100-000000709-23_N," hit the radar. AMD could debut Ryzen "Phoenix Point" in the first quarter of 2023, possibly with an International CES announcement.



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[Cowboystrekk]

Good that they got PCIe speed up to date, 5000-mobile was a shame in gaming due to PCIe 3.0x8 vs Intel PCIe 4.0x8.

 

[AnarchoPrimitiv]

I really, really, really hope that at some point AMD takes one of these APUs with Zen4/RDNA3 and slaps at least 4GB of HBM3 to it... It could usher in a whole new type of thin and light laptop, mini PCs, AIOs for OEMs, etc... It'd be so cool

 

[Space Lynx]

I don't want onboard graphics, I just want all resources dedicated to the fastest cpu possible!!! agh, this is frustrating.

Hopefully the 5800X3D goes on sale when Zen 4 launches, I will just grab that instead.

 

[ratirt]

I don't want onboard graphics, I just want all resources dedicated to the fastest cpu possible!!! agh, this is frustrating.

Hopefully the 5800X3D goes on sale when Zen 4 launches, I will just grab that instead.

You are talking about Desktop and this is a dedicated mobile market CPU with graphics. I really don't understand your frustration here. It would seem like, the release of this CPU jeopardizes your idea of having a fast Desktop CPU.
On top of that, the desktop CPUs will have the graphics in the I/O chip since the shrink so again, I don't understand your frustration and your notion about limited resources for the Desktop ZEN4 CPUs.

 

[GerKNG]

On top of that, the desktop CPUs will have the graphics in the I/O chip since the shrink so again, I don't understand your frustration and your notion about limited resources for the Desktop ZEN4 CPUs.

get rid of that GPU and the display controller, have a much smaller I/O Die and place for another 8 Core Chiplet.
same with intels trash cores and iGPU.
remove the iGPU, Display Controller and laptop cores and either reduce the price by a hundred bucks because the chip is half the size or make a lower clocked 12-16 core variant.

 

[beedoo]

get rid of that GPU and the display controller, have a much smaller I/O Die and place for another 8 Core Chiplet.
same with intels trash cores and iGPU.
remove the iGPU, Display Controller and laptop cores and either reduce the price by a hundred bucks because the chip is half the size or make a lower clocked 12-16 core variant.

Yeah I have to agree; I've been waiting for an upgrade for a couple of years and when I replace my 2950X, I don't really want a desktop CPU with a GPU in it - outside of the initial novelty factor, it's just a waste of silicon.

 

[bug]

I don't want onboard graphics, I just want all resources dedicated to the fastest cpu possible!!! agh, this is frustrating.

Hopefully the 5800X3D goes on sale when Zen 4 launches, I will just grab that instead.

For desktop, yes. But this is a mobile part. Many people will not want a dedicated GPU, but something that can fire up a web browser and use as little power as possible.
Even on the desktop, an IGP is nice as a backup. But yes, it could be a tiny part instead of these monsters that take up a third of the die and still can't play a proper game.

 

[trparky]

I don't want onboard graphics, I just want all resources dedicated to the fastest cpu possible!!! agh, this is frustrating.

Hopefully the 5800X3D goes on sale when Zen 4 launches, I will just grab that instead.

I don't know. Having the ability to at least have basic graphics for troubleshooting purposes is a good idea.

 

[windwhirl]

I really, really, really hope that at some point AMD takes one of these APUs with Zen4/RDNA3 and slaps at least 4GB of HBM3 to it... It could usher in a whole new type of thin and light laptop, mini PCs, AIOs for OEMs, etc... It'd be so cool

Not sure if it would be worth the effort from a business point of view (since HBM3 might be expensive, it would probably be better to just use a dedicated GPU with its own VRAM), but it would be interesting nonetheless, at least for the technical aspect of it. Then again, didn't we see this with that unholy union of Intel CPU and AMD Vega graphics?

get rid of that GPU and the display controller, have a much smaller I/O Die and place for another 8 Core Chiplet.

Get a laptop with desktop CPU. They exist.

XMG APEX 15 MAX | gaming laptop

The powerfully dominant XMG APEX 15 MAX packs fast ray-tracing graphics cards up to NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 and Ryzen 5000 eight-core processors from AMD

www.xmg.gg

Yeah I have to agree; I've been waiting for an upgrade for a couple of years and when I replace my 2950X, I don't really want a desktop CPU with a GPU in it - outside of the initial novelty factor, it's just a waste of silicon.

The GPU in the Zen4 desktop CPU will have just enough power to show stuff on multiple displays and decode/encode videos. Not gaming material of any kind. Also, this is a business decision geared towards obtaining a larger market share.

AMD Answers Our Zen 4 Tech Questions, with Robert Hallock

AMD just announced their new Zen 4-based Ryzen 7000 desktop processors. We sat down with AMD's Robert Hallock and asked him a load of technical questions to learn more about what to expect from the new platform, its highlights, and capabilities.

www.techpowerup.com

Is integrated graphics standard on most SKUs?
IGP is standard. It's included on all 6 nanometer IO dies, which has a small number of compute units built in, specifically to enable video encode & decode and multiple display outputs. Integrated graphics is very relevant for the commercial market, where most of our CPUs have not had graphics, that's a big customer appetite, they don't buy discrete GPUs. Now we have a much richer portfolio of processors that can play into the commercial space. For enthusiasts, it will help diagnose a bad graphics card to get the system up and running when you're still waiting on the GPU to show up. The iGPU configuration [specifications] are consistent, and all of the CPUs will have it.

Does this mean the end of APUs on the AM5 desktop platform?
Not at all. We actually don't think of the Ryzen 7000 Series as an APU. It's a processor that has graphics, and I know that's a subtle difference. To us, when we say "APU," it really means the product has powerful graphics, is capable of playing a game, has all the bells and whistles for video encode, display, drivers, etc. The IGP in Ryzen 7000 is designed to light up a monitor, handle video encode/decode, run a home theater PC, do productivity, but it's not gaming-grade graphics. APUs with big graphics are absolutely a continued part of our roadmap, and you'll see more.

Does the IGP support AV1 decode?
Yes, it is similar in capabilities to the Ryzen 6000 Series. It's the same RDNA2 compute units, same VCN [Video] and DCN [Display] IP.

 

[defaultluser]

I hope that at some point they make these apu-specific dies available on desktop.

it will be a harder sell with universal apus, but still demand is there

 

[Steevo]

Good that they got PCIe speed up to date, 5000-mobile was a shame in gaming due to PCIe 3.0x8 vs Intel PCIe 4.0x8.

Do you have data to support that? Almost nothing struggles with 8 lanes of PCIe3 VS PCIe4 in the mobile area from what I have seen. Intel doesn't make the GPU that can compete with any AMD offering on any PCIe spec right now, MFGs may have some systems with discreet GPU's from Nvidia with Intel chips but they also by no means are throttled in any meaningful way by 3 VS 4 with 8 lanes. The difference on those machines is the amount of power the Nvidia GPU is allowed to consume VS the total package power from a APU.

AMD Radeon RX 6400 Tested on PCI-Express 3.0

AMD is using a fairly narrow PCIe x4 interface on their Radeon RX 6400 GPU. We're taking AMD's new budget offering for a spin in a PCI-Express 3.0 configuration to determine how big the performance hit will be when running on an older system.

www.techpowerup.com

AMD Radeon RX 6500 XT PCI-Express Scaling

The AMD Radeon RX 6500 XT comes with only a narrow PCI-Express x4 interface. In this article, we took a closer look at how performance is affected when running at PCI-Express 3.0; also included is a full set of data for the academically interesting setting of PCI-Express 2.0.

www.techpowerup.com

13% less performance on a card, on a mobile part that is power constrained I would wager it would be more like single digit difference

 

[Space Lynx]

I don't know. Having the ability to at least have basic graphics for troubleshooting purposes is a good idea.

Never had a need for that.

For desktop, yes. But this is a mobile part. Many people will not want a dedicated GPU, but something that can fire up a web browser and use as little power as possible.
Even on the desktop, an IGP is nice as a backup. But yes, it could be a tiny part instead of these monsters that take up a third of the die and still can't play a proper game.

my gtx 1070 laptop still to this day will sometimes not use the dedicated gpu properly on certain games, defaulting to the intel hd graphics for some odd reason, even on a clean install and latest drivers. its annoying as piss. and yes I changed it to be dedicated only in settings. some games don't give a shit what the OS or Nvidia drivers tell it to do

 

[Cowboystrekk]

Do you have data to support that? Almost nothing struggles with 8 lanes of PCIe3 VS PCIe4 in the mobile area from what I have seen. Intel doesn't make the GPU that can compete with any AMD offering on any PCIe spec right now, MFGs may have some systems with discreet GPU's from Nvidia with Intel chips but they also by no means are throttled in any meaningful way by 3 VS 4 with 8 lanes. The difference on those machines is the amount of power the Nvidia GPU is allowed to consume VS the total package power from a APU.

AMD Radeon RX 6400 Tested on PCI-Express 3.0

AMD is using a fairly narrow PCIe x4 interface on their Radeon RX 6400 GPU. We're taking AMD's new budget offering for a spin in a PCI-Express 3.0 configuration to determine how big the performance hit will be when running on an older system.

www.techpowerup.com

AMD Radeon RX 6500 XT PCI-Express Scaling

The AMD Radeon RX 6500 XT comes with only a narrow PCI-Express x4 interface. In this article, we took a closer look at how performance is affected when running at PCI-Express 3.0; also included is a full set of data for the academically interesting setting of PCI-Express 2.0.

www.techpowerup.com

13% less performance on a card, on a mobile part that is power constrained I would wager it would be more like single digit difference

Typically mobile GPUs draws between 30 to 150W. On the higher end low bandwith can reduce performance. Remember that PCIe 3.0x8 is equal to PCIe 2.0x16.

PCi express 2.0 vs 3.0 vs 4.0 (RTX 3070 Ti) - YouTube

This is a card that is slightly faster than the fastest notebook GPU available. In some games like Forza the difference can be 15%, in many games they lie around 5-10%. Still this is performance lost.

The 6400 (50-55W) and 6500XT (100W) is a quite good source since they are actually mobile GPUs reused for desktop. The 10-15% gap translates into notebooks aswell since all cards running stock are powerconstraining. Watch GPU-z, powerlimit is always active. On my last notebook I had a 1070 with 115W powerlimit, perf cap reason was always powerlimit just like it is on my 3060ti now unless I run DLSS in 1080p and I sometimes become CPU-bound.

 

[windwhirl]

I hope that at some point they make these apu-specific dies available on desktop.

Probably. They've been doing so since the 2000 series.

Never had a need for that.

Doesn't really matter if you never had a need for it, because from business POV it makes more sense to have a basic GPU built into the IO die than not having it. In any case, on desktop you can just straight out disable IGPs if you don't want them.

 

[Minus Infinity]

I read a while ago it was the server market asking AMD for a basic iGPU to make life easier. But I have not seen iGPU being part of Genoa.

 

[Patriot]

I read a while ago it was the server market asking AMD for a basic iGPU to make life easier. But I have not seen iGPU being part of Genoa.

I dont see why, no one on servers has need of that... basic video is part of the bmc/ipmi solution.

 

[R0H1T]

Yes but most business, with el cheapo desktops, definitely rely on the IGP. This will come in handy there, remember Intel is still the biggest GPU maker/seller in the traditional PC space.

I really, really, really hope that at some point AMD takes one of these APUs with Zen4/RDNA3 and slaps at least 4GB of HBM3 to it... It could usher in a whole new type of thin and light laptop, mini PCs, AIOs for OEMs, etc... It'd be so cool

Probably coming after they go full unified memory everywhere like Apple. I expect at least on SKU by 2024 or maybe even next year.

 

[Patriot]

I hope that at some point they make these apu-specific dies available on desktop.

it will be a harder sell with universal apus, but still demand is there

asked and answered in interview... They plan APUs they are calling these gpus with igp. These are for office and youtube not gaming, they plan more gaming APUs.

I really, really, really hope that at some point AMD takes one of these APUs with Zen4/RDNA3 and slaps at least 4GB of HBM3 to it... It could usher in a whole new type of thin and light laptop, mini PCs, AIOs for OEMs, etc... It'd be so cool

Hard to do in a thin and light, but they will be doing it on the mi300, shared HBM3 and cache. Thin and light would be high failure rates... HBM likes to delaminate at 85-92c... HBM is also expensive as shit.

 

[ratirt]

get rid of that GPU and the display controller, have a much smaller I/O Die and place for another 8 Core Chiplet.
same with intels trash cores and iGPU.
remove the iGPU, Display Controller and laptop cores and either reduce the price by a hundred bucks because the chip is half the size or make a lower clocked 12-16 core variant.

Totally disagree. You will always need I/O die if you improve things you improve all things not just core count but also core performance.
AMD improves also graphics and putting it into CPU for troubleshooting. It wont harm the CPU's performance so I like the idea.
Even if you made I/O die smaller, it would be still impossible to put another chiplet.
Problem with you is, you express what you would want which is not what market wants. 12-16 core chip in a laptop? I dont think that would make any sense.

 

[ARF]

Intel prepares much more than 12-16 core chips for the not so distant future: Intel Client & Server CPU Roadmap Updates: Meteor Lake In 2023, 20A & 18A Powered Xeons & Core Chips Beyond 2024 (wccftech.com)

Arrow Lake with 40/48 cores/threads as soon as 2024.

Intel Process Roadmap​

PROCESS NAME	INTEL 10NM SUPERFIN	INTEL 7	INTEL 4	INTEL 3	INTEL 20A	INTEL 18A
Production	In High-Volume (Now)	In Volume (Now)	2H 2022	2H 2023	2H 2024	2H 2025
Perf/Watt (over 10nm ESF)	N/A	10-15%	20%	18%	>20%?	TBA
EUV	N/A	N/A	Yes	Yes	Yes	High-NA EUV
Transistor Architecture	FinFET	Optimized FinFET	Optimized FinFET	Optimized FinFET	RibbonFET	Optimized RibbonFET
Products	Tiger Lake	Alder Lake Raptor Lake Sapphire Rapids Emerald Rapids Xe-HPG?

Arrow Lake (15th Gen)

Intel 20A

40/48

TBA

900-Series?

LGA 1851

DDR5

PCIe Gen 5.0

2024

 

[windwhirl]

Problem with you is, you express what you would want which is not what market wants. 12-16 core chip in a laptop? I dont think that would make any sense.

And for that, laptops with desktop CPUs already exist.

Arrow Lake with 40/48 cores/threads as soon as 2024.

That's desktop. And not even sure if mainstream desktop or Threadripper equivalent.

Nothing to do with this thread's topic which is mobile CPU.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

get rid of that GPU and the display controller, have a much smaller I/O Die and place for another 8 Core Chiplet.
same with intels trash cores and iGPU.
remove the iGPU, Display Controller and laptop cores and either reduce the price by a hundred bucks because the chip is half the size or make a lower clocked 12-16 core variant.

They already have such chips for you, they are called intel HDET/threadripper. Go buy one.

I really, really, really hope that at some point AMD takes one of these APUs with Zen4/RDNA3 and slaps at least 4GB of HBM3 to it... It could usher in a whole new type of thin and light laptop, mini PCs, AIOs for OEMs, etc... It'd be so cool

HBM has, repeatedly, shows to be useless to consumers. HBM's latency makes even DDR5 look good. It would dramatically increase price and complexity.

 

[ARF]

That's desktop. And not even sure if mainstream desktop or Threadripper equivalent.

Nothing to do with this thread's topic which is mobile CPU.

Arrow Lake will for sure have in its lineup mobile offerings with more than 16 cores, even if they are E-cores, and not so many P-cores.

40/48 configurations are good for up to 8 P-cores and 32 E-cores.

 

[thegnome]

Good that they got PCIe speed up to date, 5000-mobile was a shame in gaming due to PCIe 3.0x8 vs Intel PCIe 4.0x8.

Hope you know that's a fake rumour going around for a while. Plenty of tests and PCIe 3.0 x8 is barely a bottleneck, and that's on the 3090 running over 300w. On a power constrained 150w laptop gpu the difference is literally 0. I remember seeing people run dual 3090's (XOC, so over 500w per car) on PCIe 3.0 x8 using 10th gen before Ryzen 5000 came out, and still got higher scores than rocket lake using 4.0.