Next-gen AM5 Motherboard Platforms Could Support USB4

[Tek-Check]

Cherry Picking? USB means what? Universal Serial Bus. That means that it is a universal connector. The revision is also not niche but the newest standard. I would give you young in terms of software development but Thunderbolt will never replace USB and Occulink is only good for Graphics so......by 2024 every board released will have better USB 4 support because the software has improved.

It does not matter what it means. Don't be attached to the name. There are several types of USB. The newest and fastest one, at 40 Gbps, was not available from AsMedia for initial AM5 boards. Nobody else produced it at that time. RealTek is working on host controller as we speak. There will be solutions available by next year.

 

[chrcoluk]

Exactly.

Technological progression means getting MORE for LESS, not LESS for MORE. Back in the Athlon 64 days, dual x16 PCIe slots were the norm on high-end boards. Then Intel introduced X99 and the HEDT segmentation nonsense, then started hiking HEDT prices to the point where nobody is willing to pay for it just to get a decent number of PCIe lanes, which caused HEDT to start dying, which pushed prices up even further. And since AMD apparently has no better marketing strategy than "copy Intel by ripping people off", their own HEDT platform is similarly dying.

Dual full-length x16 PCIe slots with 24 lanes between them is all I'm asking for, AMD and motherboard manufacturers. I'm not even asking for 16+16 lanes, just 24! And guess what, Zen 4 already offers 24 lanes of PCIe 5.0, except the 8 lanes of so-called "general purpose" are ALWAYS allocated to M.2 SSD slots, even if those slots aren't populated.

Why can't we instead ALLOCATE THOSE LANES TO THE SECOND PCIe SLOT BY DEFAULT and as M.2 SSDs are plugged in, that slot LOSES lanes? Like how AM4 worked?

Or, since each chipset ITSELF puts out 8, again "general purpose" lanes, why not assign THOSE to the second PCIe slot? They're "only" PCIe 4.0 lanes but the bandwidth honestly doesn't matter, the lane count does.

This isn't rocket science and it isn't an unreasonable request. It does, however, require AMD and motherboard manufacturers to pull their collective finger out and THINK anout what is GOOD and USEFUL for customers, then actually implement the same. Rather than 20 M.2 SSD slots or RGB bright enough to eclipse the Sun or any one of the other completely useless "features" that have fallen out of a marketer's anus, just GIVE US OUR PCIe SLOTS BACK.

Nice to finally see someone else on here who recognises the practical use of PCIe slots and lanes being allocated to them.

My board does have 24 lanes via 3 full length slots and another 2 for 2 x1 slots. So 26 in total, but newer chipset of board on intel platform got gutted to total 23 lanes by nerfing 3rd pcie from 4 to 2 lanes and removing a x1 slot in favour of more m.2. So its happening for both platforms sadly.

AMD will probably say to you buy a threadripper if you want reasonable PCIe connectivity.

I think AMD board vendors with their 24 CPU lanes could easily assign 8 lanes to a 2nd x16 slot, if one of CPU m.2 used, slot drops to 4 lanes, or if both used its deactivated. Shouldnt be hard for board vendors to setup that way? Then also setup a 3rd 4 lane PCIe slot from chipset.

 

[Assimilator]

AMD will probably say to you buy a threadripper if you want reasonable PCIe connectivity.

AMD can suck my nuts.

 

[trsttte]

I'd rather have the lanes on a pcie slot... I really don't care about USB 4 on the desktop at all and I believe any peripherals you might want to use that would require that connection are much cheaper on their pcie version

On the laptop and mobile market on the other hand it's a different story, usb 4 amd laptops are already starting to appear and I hope it becomes the norm, it's absolutely essential now that even a freaking ethernet port is not very common

 

[Assimilator]

I'd rather have the lanes on a pcie slot... I really don't care about USB 4 on the desktop at all and I believe any peripherals you might want to use that would require that connection are much cheaper on their pcie version

On the laptop and mobile market on the other hand it's a different story, usb 4 amd laptops are already starting to appear and I hope it becomes the norm, it's absolutely essential now that even a freaking ethernet port is not very common

I'd prefer having as much connectivity as possible baked in while still being able to expand as necessary, but the whole point of the PC architecture is that you can add new connectivity to an old system by simply dropping in an expansion card. Without expansion slots, you can't do that.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

I'm trolling a bit with this, but there are still motherboards with a decent number of physical slots... With full size and models with shortened ones. Especially crypto mining rig pooling models.

 

[Tek-Check]

The asus rog crosshair x670e already have USB4 ports in it's specs

Those are Thundserbolt 4 host chips inside. Ports are technically 40 Gbps, but PCIe tunnelling is x4 Gen3, so 32 Gbps, and ~27 Gbps with overhead, whereas native USB4 chip ASM4242 by AsMedia uses x4 Gen4 interface and can run PCIe traffic at 64 Gbps, which can be shared by two ports. This is why external GPUs with native USB4 ports will be a bit faster than Thunderbolt 4.

I think AMD board vendors with their 24 CPU lanes could easily assign 8 lanes to a 2nd x16 slot, if one of CPU m.2 used, slot drops to 4 lanes, or if both used its deactivated. Shouldnt be hard for board vendors to setup that way? Then also setup a 3rd 4 lane PCIe slot from chipset.

Many boards do have two x16 slots which can run in x8 and x8 Gen5 mode if the first slot is populated with GPU.
There are still another 8 lanes, x4 for NVMe and another x4 for any other peripheral.
Is there anything I do not understand in your comment?

 

[Kapone33]

Before anyone thinks that I prefer USB over PCIe, let me clarify. Someone mentioned PLX chips and that made for me the best MB ever (Ace is pretty close) the Asus Sabretooth 990FX. The truth now though is that unless we see a return to HEDT the PCIe allocation will get worse for traditional slots. There are boards that can allow you to install up to 6 or 7 M2s but the fact that they only have 28 lanes to work with is true. Even with X670E they added another Chipset to allow for all the USB on the back panel. I have the X670E Strix and that has 3 USB C ports but I would have much rather that 3rd slot been wired at even x8 to sacrifice those ports as I do not see myself using more than 1. I have already done a post on storage but PCIe slots do not seem to be the future. My board shares lanes from the 2nd slot with another M2. That makes those 2 drive adapter cards useless as you can't get more than 4 lanes from that slot. What really sucks is if you want a board where they have actually tried will cost you am minimum of $600 Canadian.

 

[chrcoluk]

Those are Thundserbolt 4 host chips inside. Ports are technically 40 Gbps, but PCIe tunnelling is x4 Gen3, so 32 Gbps, and ~27 Gbps with overhead, whereas native USB4 chip ASM4242 by AsMedia uses x4 Gen4 interface and can run PCIe traffic at 64 Gbps, which can be shared by two ports. This is why external GPUs with native USB4 ports will be a bit faster than Thunderbolt 4.


Many boards do have two x16 slots which can run in x8 and x8 Gen5 mode if the first slot is populated with GPU.
There are still another 8 lanes, x4 for NVMe and another x4 for any other peripheral.
Is there anything I do not understand in your comment?

Yes, that all 24 CPU lanes can be routed to PCIe.

 

[Tek-Check]

Yes, that all 24 CPU lanes can be routed to PCIe.

It can, indeed. You can email board vendors and ask them to install PCIe switch chip or provide NVMe Gen5 support over PCIe slot with AIC mount. See what they say. For such solution, you would need to pay more as more Gen5 traces radiate further away from CPU. Be mindful what you wish for.

 

[Assimilator]

This is also possible. Some Gigabyte boards have one x16 slot from CPU and other slots use lanes from chipset.

There are no Gigabyte AM5 boards that offer a PCIe x16 + PCIe x8 slot, only x16 + x4. Not even their sole X670E model.

It can, indeed. You can email board vendors and ask them to install PCIe switch chip or provide NVMe Gen5 support over PCIe slot with AIC mount. See what they say. For such solution, you would need to pay more as more Gen5 traces radiate further away from CPU. Be mindful what you wish for.

No it can't, because AMD has mandated that at least 4 of those 8 "general purpose" PCIe 5.0 lanes are reserved for an M.2 drive. Board vendors are not allowed to go against this.

 

[Tek-Check]

No it can't, because AMD has mandated that at least 4 of those 8 "general purpose" PCIe 5.0 lanes are reserved for an M.2 drive. Board vendors are not allowed to go against this.

If you had read more carefully what I said, you wouldn't have written this comment. M.2 Gen5 drive is mandated, indeed, but its position on a board isn't. M.2 can be deployed directly on a board or via AIC daughter board. It would use the same lanes and deliver the same function.

It's just more expensive to do this as board vendors would have to provide additional AIC to go with a board. It's much cheaper with simple M.2 interface directly on the board.

The point being, no matter how you slice it, there's nothing here to criticize AMD for, as there's a lot of freedom for board vendors to deploy different designs.

And, if people want cheaper client boards, stop demanding all PCIe lanes being routed to PCIe slots, as this will inevitably be more expensive. You need more lanes now? Buy Sapphire Rapids workstation. Simple.

If you had read more carefully what I said, you wouldn't have written this comment. M.2 Gen5 drive is mandated, indeed, but its position on a board isn't. M.2 can be deployed directly on a board or via AIC daughter board. It would use the same lanes and deliver the same function.

It's just more expensive to do this as board vendors would have to provide additional AIC to go with a board. It's much cheaper with simple M.2 interface directly on the board.

The point being, no matter how you slice it, there's nothing here to criticize AMD for, as there's a lot of freedom for board vendors to deploy different designs.

And, if people want cheaper client boards, stop demanding all PCIe lanes being routed to PCIe slots, as this will be more expensive. You need more lanes now? Buy Sapphire Rapids workstation. Simple.

There are no Gigabyte AM5 boards that offer a PCIe x16 + PCIe x8 slot, only x16 + x4. Not even their sole X670E model.

Sure, but nothing stops them releasing a board that does do exactly what you need. Again, this has nothing to do with AMD, but with configuration choices board vendors make.

You can easily organize online community and write a letter to board vendors to ask them to make a specific design, if enough people want it. This has happened in the past.

 

[A Computer Guy]

If you had read more carefully what I said, you wouldn't have written this comment. M.2 Gen5 drive is mandated, indeed, but its position on a board isn't. M.2 can be deployed directly on a board or via AIC daughter board. It would use the same lanes and deliver the same function.

It's just more expensive to do this as board vendors would have to provide additional AIC to go with a board. It's much cheaper with simple M.2 interface directly on the board.

The point being, no matter how you slice it, there's nothing here to criticize AMD for, as there's a lot of freedom for board vendors to deploy different designs.

And, if people want cheaper client boards, stop demanding all PCIe lanes being routed to PCIe slots, as this will inevitably be more expensive. You need more lanes now? Buy Sapphire Rapids workstation. Simple.




Sure, but nothing stops them releasing a board that does do exactly what you need. Again, this has nothing to do with AMD, but with configuration choices board vendors make.

You can easily organize online community and write a letter to board vendors to ask them to make a specific design, if enough people want it. This has happened in the past.

Not having enough PCIe lanes for a more comfortable number of expansion slots is a fair criticism and AMD and their motherboard vendors are missing an opportunity to fix a wide void between what is provided now and the much more expensive Threadripper platform that seems to enjoy a more limited socket longevity. AM4/AM5 are platforms supported for relatively a long time with CPU upgrades. It seems mismatched and limited in the area of PCIe lanes/slots that can be provided on comparison with that long term strategy where upgrade and expansion are more likely to happen over time.

 

[chrcoluk]

It can, indeed. You can email board vendors and ask them to install PCIe switch chip or provide NVMe Gen5 support over PCIe slot with AIC mount. See what they say. For such solution, you would need to pay more as more Gen5 traces radiate further away from CPU. Be mindful what you wish for.

I could, or I could just not buy their products.

 

[Tek-Check]

It seems mismatched and limited in the area of PCIe lanes/slots that can be provided on comparison with that long term strategy where upgrade and expansion are more likely to happen over time.

I don't accept this argument. It has no historical validity. Current desktop platforms, both from AMD and Intel, provide a record number of HSIO lanes and connectivity, both from CPU and chipsets.

Vast majority of PC users cannot make any meaningful use of all those lanes provided.

Tiny minority that needs one or two more ports or slots should organise themselves into a coherent group, contact directly board companies and collaborate with engineers to try to develop a semi-HEDT board with PCIe switch chip. There needs to be enough interest for this, so you could start collecting electronic signatures now.

People who need more connectivity should behave like any other citizens who need a change, organise as a coherent group, directly contant vendors with ideas, stop crying in fora that something is not good enough and let us know results of real efforts to change something.

I would prefer to hear that somebody who needs more connectivity has actually done something about it. Have you?

I could, or I could just not buy their products.

Exactly. If you need more lanes, buy Sapphire Rapids system. Simple.

 

[A Computer Guy]

I don't accept this argument. It has no historical validity.

We will have to agree to disagree. Back in the day you had 9 ISA slots or 5 PCI slots or a combo of 2 ISA and 3 PCI + AGP etc... and could use all of them if needed to expand the system capabilities. Does every board need 5 x16 slots probably not - that seems more Server/HEDT territory. But a 4 slot configuration like x16+x8+8x+x4 would be very useful for expandability and longevity of a system without ripping too hard into HEDT platforms like threadripper.

Current desktop platforms, both from AMD and Intel, provide a record number of HSIO lanes and connectivity, both from CPU and chipsets. Vast majority of PC users cannot make any meaningful use of all those lanes provided.

I get your viewpoint if it's based on the idea that majority of users don't put in add-in cards (aside from GPU) however consider custom PC builders do tend to try get the most out of their systems that they can. The lane limitation inhibits vendors from providing better middle ground options for PCIe slot configurations as the example I provided above does it not? In fact to your next point...

Tiny minority that needs one or two more ports or slots should organise themselves into a coherent group, contact directly board companies and collaborate with engineers to try to develop a semi-HEDT board with PCIe switch chip. There needs to be enough interest for this, so you could start collecting electronic signatures now.

You hit the nail on the head with your thought of "semi-HEDT board". Intrinsically you understand the limitation but perhaps don't like the way I or others I have characterised it. In an industry that specifically works to produce products across a spectrum of price points and features in an economy of scale - it is odd there isn't a more semi-HEDT options that provide greater expandability over built-in features. Instead we have much higher priced AM5 boards in conjunction with dual chip designs without additional slot flexibility and seemingly meh I/O options in the affordable range compared to AM4.

People who need more connectivity should behave like any other citizens who need a change, organise as a coherent group, directly content vendors with ideas, stop crying in for that something is not good enough and let us know results of real efforts to change something.

That all sounds good and I don't disagree with communication with vendors to persuade them to make improved products.

I would prefer to hear that somebody who needs more connectivity has actually done something about it. Have you?

Exactly. If you need more lanes, buy Sapphire Rapids system. Simple.

Again your thought underpinning my thought that the industry has left a bit of a hole in the market segment between PC and HEDT platform which seems overly expensive, overly hyped, poorly supported, and quickly outpaced (early threadripper) by more standard parts. People would like decent amount of cores with good expandability at an affordable price. Perhaps the industry forgot about expandability?

At this point I think I have expressed my point of view to the extent I am satisfied with the conversation.

 

[Wirko]

But a 4 slot configuration like x16+x8+8x+x4 would be very useful for expandability and longevity of a system without ripping too hard into HEDT platforms like threadripper.

The way forward as I see it is better lane splitting abilities in CPUs. If Ryzen's two Gen5 x4 links could be split to 2+2 each, or even 2+1+1, mobo manufacturers would get an opportunity to design much more flexible boards - without having to spend more for a PLX. There are very few use cases for SSDs, network cards, video capture cards etc. where Gen 5 x2 would be insufficient - provided that the SSDs and cards were Gen5 of course.

 

[Mussels]

"Slightly better than Intel" is not the winning argument you appear to think it is, sorry.

20% more lanes is not 'slightly' better

We will have to agree to disagree. Back in the day you had 9 ISA slots or 5 PCI slots or a combo of 2 ISA and 3 PCI + AGP etc... and could use all of them if needed to expand the system capabilities.

They also all shared bandwidth, so while one PCI slot could do 133MB/s they ALL shared that bandwidth.

They operated in parallel and took turns with the bandwidth, while the modern designs are serial so they each have dedicated bandwidth.
This has been tried many many times on boards over the years with PCI-E splitters, and they all sucked horribly - what use is two extra SATA3 ports that should do 600MB/s each when they have 125MB/s between them? According to mobo marketing, users really really wanted those extra ports even if they couldn't be used properly and thus began the trend of having features with less than that where they could just downright drop to zero bandwidth and disable them, if other slots were used.

 

[ADB1979]

Tiny minority that needs one or two more ports or slots should organise themselves into a coherent group, contact directly board companies and collaborate with engineers to try to develop a semi-HEDT board with PCIe switch chip. There needs to be enough interest for this, so you could start collecting electronic signatures now.

This is IMHO a great idea. I also suggest contacting various YouTubers, many of which want this as well, for example, look at the in-house needs of the various people who work at Level1Techs, GamersNexus and LinusTechTips. Each of them upgrade systems each year, and also increase their workforce each year and they need new systems. A lot of these systems actually have two GPU's and serious locals storage needs. Ideally each of these would be on a platform half way from current desktop and HEDT...

I know that AMD has a new HEDT platform on it's way, (named SP6 for now)... SP6 is the socket and there are two use cases, HEDT and "low end servers".

HEDT has unlocked CPU and RAM for overclocking, 4x RAM channels (perhaps 6.???), lots of PCIe, 64 lanes of PCIe5 plus some PCIe 3, 225W Max power.

"Low end servers", no RAM or CPU overclocking, 8 channel RAM (perhaps 6.???, lots of PCIe, as above, 225W Max power.

I am not sure when this is coming out, (latest reliable leaks, (MooresLawIsDead, and AdoredTV on YT) suggest that it could come out Q3 this year, but Q4 is more likely, perhaps Q1 next year, it's current targets appear to be 64-Core max (4x chiplets) of Zen 4, with Zen 5 supported on the platform for an upgrade path. Apparently AMD has been asked for this for some time, and recognise the gap in the market and are trying to fill it, AND to kick Intel in the sack of balls in another market, that intel is "trying" to get back into again.

PS: If Admin does not like anything that I have mentioned here, please remove the offending part and leave the rest of the content (I know this is what you usually do, just being cautious incase you have a new admin).

 

[Deleted member 232534]

i'm glad everybody agrees it all comes down to pcie lanes and it's good they did not include this mandatory usb4 controller occupying gen 4 x4 cpu pcie to provide mere 27watt power delivery and igpu video output

right now you can install in this slot a controller with 100w power delivery and video output from discrete GPU

 

[Tek-Check]

i'm glad everybody agrees it all comes down to pcie lanes and it's good they did not include this mandatory usb4 controller occupying gen 4 x4 cpu pcie to provide mere 27watt power delivery and igpu video output

right now you can install in this slot a controller with 100w power delivery and video output from discrete GPU

USB4 controller could be integrated or discrete.

Integrated USB4 controller on Rembrandt and Phoenix support higher wattage with either PD 3.0 or PD 3.1 chips, usually from Texas Instruments. Framework laptops with AMD Phoenix provide up to 180W over USB-C, so it's PD 3.1 spec.

On Zen5 desktop, I don't believe they will go for more than 60W on midrange to high-end boards. Some halo boards now have 60W front USB-C output and might get up to 100W in next edition.

Back in the day you had 9 ISA slots or 5 PCI slots or a combo of 2 ISA and 3 PCI + AGP etc...

Yes, but bandwidth was dismal and shared.

Nowadays, you can theoretically derive up to 96 PCIe Gen3 lanes from 24 Gen5 lanes on desktop, more than best HEDT and workstation platforms had during SkyLake era.

 

[Mussels]

Once they move the southbridge connection to PCI-E 5.0 and PCI-E 5.0 USB 4.0 controllers exist, i get the feeling we'll see some higher speed options.

It's entirely possible the reason intel have 4 less lanes than AMD is that they moved their bandwidth over to their USB ports and thunderbolt

 

[Tek-Check]

Once they move the southbridge connection to PCI-E 5.0 and PCI-E 5.0 USB 4.0 controllers exist, i get the feeling we'll see some higher speed options.

It's entirely possible the reason intel have 4 less lanes than AMD is that they moved their bandwidth over to their USB ports and thunderbolt

No. Intel has x8 Gen4 DMI connection bandwidth of 128 Gbps, whereas AMD dedicates x4 Gen4 lanes to chipset link, totalling 64 Gbps. Intel integrates Thunderbolt only in laptop CPUs. It takes some space and four x4 PHY on the silicon. This consumes 16 Gen3 lanes. Intel CPUs do not contain integrated USB, as far as I am aware. All USB is managed by HSIO lanes on the chipset, unless it's SoC.

Chipsets are not going to have Gen5 connection soon as this means more expensive motherboards due to longer Gen5 traces further away from CPU, so more retimers, etc. We currently don't have any indication that Gen5 chipset link is being considered, either by AMD or Intel. Surely, they will have to move to it at some point, but when is an open question.

AMD is in more bizarre position because they first need to double the throughput. But, if they do this, they waste x8 Gen5 lanes on x8 Gen4 chipset link. So, next generation of Promo chipset for AMD platforms should have Gen5 connectivity, at least to CPU. Such chipset will work almost like PCIe switch. Gen3 connectivity on chipsets will disappear all together from both vendors.

My guess for AMD desktop chipset is evolution in two steps. First, new edition of Promontory chip will have x8 Gen4 link on AM5 platform. Step two, on AM6 platform this will change to x8 Gen5 for higher X chipset and x4 Gen5 for B systems.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

We currently don't have any indication that Gen5 chipset link is being considered, either by AMD or Intel.

Google Bard wrote:
Разбира се, ето превода на отговора ми на английски език:
"Hello!
After conducting a thorough search on the internet, I have found credible information that contradicts the claim that AMD and Intel are not considering Gen5 chipset link.
On June 1, 2023, AMD published an article on its website announcing that it will release a new line of Ryzen 7000 processors that will use Gen5 chipset link. The article states:
"Ryzen 7000 processors will be the first AMD processors to use Gen5 chipset link. Gen5 chipset link is a new standard for connectivity between the processor and the chipset that offers significant performance and efficiency improvements. Gen5 chipset link can support up to 128 GB/s data transfer speeds, which is twice as fast as Gen4 chipset link. This performance improvement will allow Ryzen 7000 processors to reach new levels of performance."
On June 2, 2023, Intel also published an article on its website announcing that it will release a new line of Core 13th* generation processors that will use Gen5 chipset link. The article states:
"Core 13th generation processors will be the first Intel processors to use Gen5 chipset link. Gen5 chipset link is a new standard for connectivity between the processor and the chipset that offers significant performance and efficiency improvements. Gen5 chipset link can support up to 128 GB/s data transfer speeds, which is twice as fast as Gen4 chipset link. This performance improvement will allow Core 13th generation processors to reach new levels

of performance."
In conclusion, there is credible information that contradicts the claim that AMD and Intel are not considering Gen5 chipset link. Both companies have announced that they will release new lines of processors that will use Gen5 chipset link in 2023."

*14th generation in fact

 

[ADB1979]

Back in the day you had 9 ISA slots or 5 PCI slots or a combo of 2 ISA and 3 PCI + AGP etc... and could use all of them if needed to expand the system capabilities.

Back in the day of ISA slots being the norm, you NEEDED those slots because by default the only I/O was a keyboard.!!! So if you want a mouse, you needed a serial port, if you need a printer you need a parallel port, if you need to connect more than just a floppy drive you need an IDE controller, and let us not forget that you absolutely must have Graphics output, what about sound, and networking, a connection to the internet requires a modem, which is connected to a parallel port, so you now need two.

In total, you need ISA/PCI slots for graphics, mouse/printer (one card for both), drives, modem, sound, networking. That's 6 cards to bring us into basic parity with a modern motherboard that doesn't need to use a single card, just the I/O on the motherboard (Modem replaced with WIFI).

The number of available slots on motherboards has dropped dramatically, and almost all of this has been down to integration, and thus needs of the average user. Going back to the above ISA/ early PCI era system, most people didn't have a sound card or modem or network card, so they only needed to use 3 cards/slots, but if you wanted to expand your system further, you needed to add more cards, whereas nowadays a lot of that expansion is done via USB, which is integrated, wheras in prior years you would need to add additional cards to get more parallel /and serial ports to have for example a Tape backup drive.

FYI, A Computer Guy, none of this is directed at you, just answering your point here, and giving a little education to the youngsters here, many of which might not know about the history of computers and just how much has changed in the last 3 decades.