• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Mesa CPU-based Vulkan Driver Gets Ray Tracing Support - Quake II Performance Hits 1 FPS

T0@st

News Editor
Staff member
Joined
Mar 7, 2023
Messages
2,077 (4.76/day)
Location
South East, UK
Konstantin Seurer, a Mesa developer, has spent the past couple of months working on CPU-based Vulkan ray tracing—naturally, some folks will express scepticism about this project's practicality. Seurer has already set expectations with a brief message: "don't ask about performance." His GitLab merge request page attracted Michael Larabel's attention—the Phoronix founder and principal author was suitably impressed with Seurer's coding wizardry. He: "managed to implement support for VK_KHR_acceleration_structure, VK_KHR_deferred_host_operations, and VK_KHR_ray_query for Lavapipe. This Lavapipe Vulkan ray tracing support is based in part on porting code from the emulated ray tracing worked on for RADV with older Radeon GPUs." A lone screenshot provided evidence of Quake II running at 1 FPS with Vulkan ray tracing enabled—this "atrocious" performance was achieved thanks to a Mesa Lavapipe driver "implementing the Vulkan API for CPU-based execution."

VideoCardz has highlighted an older example of CPU-based rendering techniques: "this is not the first time we heard about ray tracing on the CPU in Quake. In 2008, Intel demonstrated Enemy Territory: Quake Wars running at 720p resolution at 14 to 29 FPS on 16 core and 20-35 FPS at 24 core CPUs (quad-socket). The basic implementation of ray tracing in 2008 is not comparable to complex ray tracing techniques designed for GPUs, thus the performance on modern system is actually much lower. Beyond that, that game was specifically designed for the Intel architecture and used a specific API to achieve that. Sadly, the original ET demo is no longer available, it would be interesting to see how it performs today." CPU-based Vulkan ray tracing is expected to hit public distribution channels with the rollout of Mesa 24.1. Several members of the Phoronix community reckon that modern AMD Threadripper PRO processors have the potential to post double-digit in-game frame rates.




WinElchtest: "Video of a ray traced version of Enemy Territory: QUAKE Wars."


Intel's ray tracing research group produced this port, according to the video's description section.

View at TechPowerUp Main Site | Source
 

Cheeseball

Not a Potato
Supporter
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
1,857 (0.33/day)
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
System Name Titan
Processor AMD Ryzen™ 7 7950X3D
Motherboard ASUS ROG Strix X670E-I Gaming WiFi
Cooling ID-COOLING SE-207-XT Slim Snow
Memory TEAMGROUP T-Force Delta RGB 2x16GB DDR5-6000 CL30
Video Card(s) ASRock Radeon RX 7900 XTX 24 GB GDDR6 (MBA)
Storage 2TB Samsung 990 Pro NVMe
Display(s) AOpen Fire Legend 24" (25XV2Q), Dough Spectrum One 27" (Glossy), LG C4 42" (OLED42C4PUA)
Case ASUS Prime AP201 33L White
Audio Device(s) Kanto Audio YU2 and SUB8 Desktop Speakers and Subwoofer, Cloud Alpha Wireless
Power Supply Corsair SF1000L
Mouse Logitech Pro Superlight (White), G303 Shroud Edition
Keyboard Wooting 60HE / NuPhy Air75 v2
VR HMD Occulus Quest 2 128GB
Software Windows 11 Pro 64-bit 23H2 Build 22631.3447
Welcome back software rendering. :laugh:

I used to play Quake (classic) in MS-DOS (6.22, Windows 95) with 8 GB MB of RAM, which I believe was enough for ~60 FPS at 800x600.
 
Joined
Oct 6, 2021
Messages
1,478 (1.55/day)
It doesn't seem realistic to me to say that it's running at 1fps.
 
Joined
May 30, 2015
Messages
1,884 (0.58/day)
Location
Seattle, WA
Intel also had Quake 3 ray traced in real time on a cluster of glorified Pentium 4s (Xeon MP) in 2004. This paper even acknowledges the Quake 2 Vulkan path tracing project near the end.

"In the network cluster with 20 nodes, each equipped with a dual-core CPU, the frame rate was at 20 frames per second for a resolution of 512 × 512 pixels at 4× supersampling."

They used OpenRT though, not a proprietary API at the time by any means. The most proprietary thing they did was work around IdTech 3 which wasn't open source yet at that point to remake assets for the engine.
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2019
Messages
2,058 (1.11/day)
Location
Olympia, WA
System Name Sleepy Painter
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard Asus TuF Gaming X570-PLUS/WIFI
Cooling FSP Windale 6 - Passive
Memory 2x16GB F4-3600C16-16GVKC @ 16-19-21-36-58-1T
Video Card(s) MSI RX580 8GB
Storage 2x Samsung PM963 960GB nVME RAID0, Crucial BX500 1TB SATA, WD Blue 3D 2TB SATA
Display(s) Microboard 32" Curved 1080P 144hz VA w/ Freesync
Case NZXT Gamma Classic Black
Audio Device(s) Asus Xonar D1
Power Supply Rosewill 1KW on 240V@60hz
Mouse Logitech MX518 Legend
Keyboard Red Dragon K552
Software Windows 10 Enterprise 2019 LTSC 1809 17763.1757
Looks like a step towards separating and parallelizing RT functions. Neat.

It doesn't seem realistic to me to say that it's running at 1fps.
A. Early development.

B.
Several members of the Phoronix community reckon that modern AMD Threadripper PRO processors have the potential to post double-digit in-game frame rates.
Makes me wonder if anyone still has a working Intel Larrabee hanging around.
 
Joined
Oct 6, 2021
Messages
1,478 (1.55/day)
Looks like a step towards separating and parallelizing RT functions. Neat.


A. Early development.

B.

Makes me wonder if anyone still has a working Intel Larrabee hanging around.
From what I observed in a discussion, apparently the dev said he is rendering 1 frame in 15 minutes, what is being shown in the overlay is an illusion . The processor used was a Ryzen 5600x.

People don't understand the computational level required to run RT. :')
 
Joined
Apr 30, 2020
Messages
863 (0.58/day)
System Name S.L.I + RTX research rig
Processor Ryzen 7 5800X 3D.
Motherboard MSI MEG ACE X570
Cooling Corsair H150i Cappellx
Memory Corsair Vengeance pro RGB 3200mhz 16Gbs
Video Card(s) 2x Dell RTX 2080 Ti in S.L.I
Storage Western digital Sata 6.0 SDD 500gb + fanxiang S660 4TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2
Display(s) HP X24i
Case Corsair 7000D Airflow
Power Supply EVGA G+1600watts
Mouse Corsair Scimitar
Keyboard Cosair K55 Pro RGB
From what I observed in a discussion, apparently the dev said he is rendering 1 frame in 15 minutes, what is being shown in the overlay is an illusion . The processor used was a Ryzen 5600x.

People don't understand the computational level required to run RT. :')

This has always been the truth.
I'd rather bettering immersion features like dynamic vegetation & physic.
Lighting is the least of my worries.
 
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
407 (0.07/day)
Location
Pacific Coast
System Name Z77 Rev. 1
Processor Intel Core i7 3770K
Motherboard ASRock Z77 Extreme4
Cooling Water Cooling
Memory 2x G.Skill F3-2400C10D-16GTX
Video Card(s) EVGA GTX 1080
Storage Samsung 850 Pro
Display(s) Samsung 28" UE590 UHD
Case Silverstone TJ07
Audio Device(s) Onboard
Power Supply Seasonic PRIME 600W Titanium
Mouse EVGA TORQ X10
Keyboard Leopold Tenkeyless
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Benchmark Scores 3DMark Time Spy: 7695
The question is 'why?'. Is this just a challenge to tackle? Or does the developer think that in 10 years when CPUs catch up, people will want to use it?

It looks terrible. It performs terrible.

I don't get it. I don't get ray tracing in general, but this is next level.
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2019
Messages
2,058 (1.11/day)
Location
Olympia, WA
System Name Sleepy Painter
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 3600
Motherboard Asus TuF Gaming X570-PLUS/WIFI
Cooling FSP Windale 6 - Passive
Memory 2x16GB F4-3600C16-16GVKC @ 16-19-21-36-58-1T
Video Card(s) MSI RX580 8GB
Storage 2x Samsung PM963 960GB nVME RAID0, Crucial BX500 1TB SATA, WD Blue 3D 2TB SATA
Display(s) Microboard 32" Curved 1080P 144hz VA w/ Freesync
Case NZXT Gamma Classic Black
Audio Device(s) Asus Xonar D1
Power Supply Rosewill 1KW on 240V@60hz
Mouse Logitech MX518 Legend
Keyboard Red Dragon K552
Software Windows 10 Enterprise 2019 LTSC 1809 17763.1757
The question is 'why?'. Is this just a challenge to tackle? Or does the developer think that in 10 years when CPUs catch up, people will want to use it?

It looks terrible. It performs terrible.

I don't get it. I don't get ray tracing in general, but this is next level.
Depending on the creator's age bracket and professional status... This seems like the kind of project you'd put in your Portfolio.

So, yes. It is (at least in part) for the challenge. The other part (I'd imagine) is demonstration of skills and technique.
The mentality seems common amongst auto-didact programmers, or at least the ones in the Emulation community (reaching back decades).
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2019
Messages
860 (0.46/day)
Location
The New England region of the United States
System Name Daily Driver(gaming, browsing)
Processor Ryzen 7 3800X
Motherboard Gigabyte X570 Aurus Pro Wifi
Cooling Noctua NH-D15 chromax.black
Memory 32GB(2x16GB) Patriot Viper DDR4-3200C16
Video Card(s) EVGA RTX 3060 Ti
Storage Samsung 970 EVO Plus 1TB (Boot/OS)|Hynix Platinum P41 2TB (Games)|Kingston KC3000 2TB (Misc)
Display(s) Gigabyte G27F
Case Corsair Graphite 600T w/mesh side
Audio Device(s) Logitech Z625 2.1 | cheapo gaming headset when mic is needed
Power Supply Corsair HX850i
Mouse Redragon M808-KS Storm Pro (Great Value)
Keyboard Redragon K512 Shiva replaced a Corsair K70 Lux - Blue on Black
VR HMD Nope
Software Windows 10 Pro x64
Benchmark Scores Nope
I don't get it. I don't get ray tracing in general, but this is next level.
I agree, I don't really see the point. Too much performance loss at this point even on Ngreedia hardware.
 
Top