Intel Plans "Arrow Lake Refresh" for H2 2025 with Higher Clocks and Upgraded NPU

[_roman_]

Some still advertise to buy an intel processor. I think I read it's cheaper. A Mainboard change is not an argument for the intel buyer. Buying new DRAM is an argument to avoid AMD. Therefore buy a new intel processor, a new intel mainboard and keep the old DDR4 DRAM.

Too bad AI is such worse to answer simple question. How many mainboard changes for intel platform vs amd platform for a given time-frame from year to year.

 

[TheGuruStud]

Some still advertise to buy an intel processor. I think I read it's cheaper. A Mainboard change is not an argument for the intel buyer. Buying new DRAM is an argument to avoid AMD. Therefore buy a new intel processor, a new intel mainboard and keep the old DDR4 DRAM.

Too bad AI is such worse to answer simple question. How many mainboard changes for intel platform vs amd platform for a given time-frame from year to year.

Intel STILL can't beat 5800X3D, so a lot of MBs lol. Mine Oced on X370 ties OCed 14900K (not that there's any headroom lul). Absolutely pathetic.

 

[JustBenching]

Mine Oced on X370 ties OCed 14900K (not that there's any headroom lul). Absolutely pathetic.

No it doesn't. Not even close. This is just false.

 

[Tyler-98-W68]

Intel STILL can't beat 5800X3D, so a lot of MBs lol. Mine Oced on X370 ties OCed 14900K (not that there's any headroom lul). Absolutely pathetic.

a 245K does, and it absolutely demolishes a 5800x3d outside of gaming, cope harder amd fan boy

 

[JustBenching]

a 245K does, and it absolutely demolishes a 5800x3d outside of gaming, cope harder amd fan boy

I tested a friends 5800x 3d vs my 12900k, both oced, there is no comparison. I don't know where the heck do they get these weird ideas, the 3d chips are fast when stock cause they are not reliant on memory, when you start tinkering with memory then things kinda change.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

I tested a friends 5800x 3d vs my 12900k, both oced, there is no comparison. I don't know where the heck do they get these weird ideas, the 3d chips are fast when stock cause they are not reliant on memory, when you start tinkering with memory then things kinda change.

I chuckled pretty hard when I seen that comment I was like wtf. The 265k beats it and cost about the same and destroys it outside of gaming for around the same price now at least in the states vs the last price you could get a 5800X3D for.



I am guessing the person making the comment only plays one game the 5800X3D is really good at and bases all cpu gaming performance on that specific game.

 

[Panther_Seraphin]

I tested a friends 5800x 3d vs my 12900k, both oced, there is no comparison. I don't know where the heck do they get these weird ideas, the 3d chips are fast when stock cause they are not reliant on memory, when you start tinkering with memory then things kinda change.

DDR4 or DDR5 with that 12900k? Decent DDR5 is what makes Alderlake really shine in comparison but it was unbelievably expensive at time of launch and for a good while after.

5800X3D was amazing at time of release and was/is amazing for anyone still on AM4 now and doesnt have a decent chunk of change to do a full MB/RAM/CPU swap. Otherwise going to AM5/Waiting for intels next release would be my advice currently. Advising/advocating for AM4 parts now is silly.

 

[JustBenching]

DDR4 or DDR5 with that 12900k? Decent DDR5 is what makes Alderlake really shine in comparison but it was unbelievably expensive at time of launch and for a good while after.

5800X3D was amazing at time of release and was/is amazing for anyone still on AM4 now and doesnt have a decent chunk of change to do a full MB/RAM/CPU swap. Otherwise going to AM5/Waiting for intels next release would be my advice currently. Advising/advocating for AM4 parts now is silly.

DDR5.

 

[eldon_magi]

For me, mini pc's and sunshine/moonlight streaming has changed the game completely. For my KDE Plasma desktop, on 3x 4K screens, i only need a mini pc running wayland, browsers, some bash terminals, and playing videos and music.

I bought an GMKtec K8 Plus which has a Ryzen 8845HS/780M, 96GB ddr5, and a 4TB SN850x. without ram and ssd it was 372 EUR. Could not be happier. Everything runs smooth, browser and video playback are fully hardware accelerated, not a single stutter anywhere, rock stable running 24/7.

I have a slider in KDE for 'silent, balanced and performance' mode, usually keep it at silent, sometimes compiling a kernel i can give it some power. For anything else silent is enough..

Have it mounted behind one screen with a vesa bracket, zero cables on the desk, and zero gadgets. Zero cables on the floor.

Other desktops are running on two servers in a separate room, in proxmox servers with pcie passthrough to GPU's. No need for dummy plugs, or anything connected to the GPU outputs using the EDID kernel trick. Stream those outputs 4K@60 with hevc over 2.5gbit ethernet, well tuned it is practically indistinguishable from a physically DP/HDMI connected GPU. I can stream windows, steamdeck, any linux GUI, or any app.

I will wait for nova lake, but even a core ultra 7 is interesting, as i could run a headless proxmox server on it, use cpu affinity to run a desktop system on the 12 e cores streaming from the igpu, and the 8 p cores running a gaming server streaming over a nvidia or AMD GPU. That's two very capable systems running on a single computer, with no need to make it run silent, no problem with heat, no big boxes or big cables. The mini pc just shows the video output, it's just an app in the taskbar.

below some pics of the K8 plus mounted behind screen..
Besides that all that's needed is keyboard and mouse. No heat, no noise.. it's heaven

 

[efikkan]

Back in the day people used to welcome mid-generation refreshes.
Hopefully this refresh offers more than a tiny adjustment to clocks and voltages.

Despite all the FUD, Arrow Lake has been praised for how consistent the performance is, not to mention very good performance in Linux. The amount of mental gymnastics people go through to justify inferior products is astounding, and I sincerely hope that the amount who fall of this, is about equal to the amount of people who actually game in 720p on a RTX 4090/5090. (Especially those arguing for Zen 3 CPUs right now, which will not be snappy on a desktop by today's standards.)

 

[Tyler-98-W68]

Since we got so off topic with stupid SFF's in this thread i'll just ramble on about my ITX Minisforum MB with R9 7945HX3D, because its fun....and I didn't put it in a SFF case.

Fun fact, my Ultra 5 225 games better than it does (and they both use about 100w of power under full CPU load)

Result

www.3dmark.com

And somehow the world's worst gaming CPU somehow matches/slightly beats a 7950X3D (lower power)

 

[kondamin]

So will it get Battle mage as igpu like lunar lake?

 

[eldon_magi]

I'm telling myself wait for nova lake before doing anything.. but arrow lake refresh this year.. If they upgrade the igpu to battlemage.. could be irresistable

 

[Outback Bronze]

I was being sarcastic

I was well aware of that matey

I just wanted to put my 2c in about that I will likely be skipping it. I'll be surprised if the refresh is any decent.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

I was well aware of that matey

I just wanted to put my 2c in about that I will likely be skipping it. I'll be surprised if the refresh is any decent.

Maybe next gen gaming will get some love from both sides if it wasn't for X3D gaming on Zen5 would have been a letdown also.

Outside of gaming the 285k was super solid I just think the i5 is too compromised to matter for gaming anymore and that was their bread and butter for gaming for so long.

The problem and I've seen this locally is a 9600X performs about the same as the 285k in gaming and is like 1/3 the cost close enough that you wouldn't notice which you were using so anyone who only games the cpu is a waste.

Back in the day people used to welcome mid-generation refreshes.
Hopefully this refresh offers more than a tiny adjustment to clocks and voltages.

Despite all the FUD, Arrow Lake has been praised for how consistent the performance is, not to mention very good performance in Linux. The amount of mental gymnastics people go through to justify inferior products is astounding, and I sincerely hope that the amount who fall of this, is about equal to the amount of people who actually game in 720p on a RTX 4090/5090. (Especially those arguing for Zen 3 CPUs right now, which will not be snappy on a desktop by today's standards.)

It's the same thing in reverse from when Zen2 released the 3900X obliterated the 9900k at MT task and was like 5% slower in realistic gaming scenarios I had both so I am fully aware. You still had the Intel brigade saying Zen2 was trash etc.


Now it's the opposite which cracks me up a bit.

That's just fanboys in general if something is 1% slower or not chart topping at a specific workload it's trash when it isn't their preferred brand.

 

[TheGuruStud]

No it doesn't. Not even close. This is just false.

Take a look at stock 5800x3D gaming reviews and add 11% or whatever it is. Keep inhaling Pat's bottles.

 

[Tyler-98-W68]

Take a look at stock 5800x3D gaming reviews and add 11% or whatever it is. Keep inhaling Pat's bottles.
View attachment 407004

I mean I game at 720p all the time so obviously i'd choose a processor that is way older, and doesn't do anything else but game semi decent, when I could just buy a new platform and get better all around performance.

 

[ToxicTaZ]

Arrow Lake Refresh... Usually I would say Refresh models to go to but Arrow Lake/Refresh LGA 1851is not a good platform my opinion. All because Intel 20A RibbonFET was broken. I felt the same way about LGA 1200 platform with broken PCIe 4.0

My upgrade path has been rock solid for 6 years now 9900KS (Coffee Lake Refresh) to my current 14900KS (Raptor Lake Refresh) on my MSI MEG Z790 ACE MAX motherboard with Bios 7D86vA7

My next RIG build will be based upon Intel Razer Lake Refresh (Intel 18A-PT) on second generation LGA 1954 Socket PCIe 5.0 Certified Motherboard.

From Raptor Lake to Razer Lake architecture huge level of performance.

Intel next good second generation nodes 18A-P & 18A-PT, I believe Intel dropped first generation 18A Node for 3rd party customers.

Cheers

 

[JustBenching]

Take a look at stock 5800x3D gaming reviews and add 11% or whatever it is. Keep inhaling Pat's bottles.
View attachment 407004

We can open a thread and test it if you want, no problem. Ill even run my 12900k stock. You said you are matching an oced 14900k - so clearly you must be curbstomping my 12900k. Wanna do it?

 

[_roman_]

Despite all the FUD, Arrow Lake has been praised for how consistent the performance is, not to mention very good performance in Linux.

I still do not know what instructions those E-cores can do or not do.

I build my gentoo-sources linux kernels since 2006. Only proof available is my forums.gentoo.org forum user.

There are so many unneeded patches and fixes in the kernel sourches. I highly doubt that quote ... linux performance. For what optimisations? Which cpuflags?

You may check yourself all those changes first. Especially those which dates back 2-5 months ago for e.g. the ~amd64 kernel sources.

All that bloat which is needed because of those E-Cores. still not properly executed. Years after Years.

Gentoo compiles most packages from source code. My ryzen 7600x is enough yet.

I highly doubt INTEL has any support for the AVX512 instruction. Does intel now support those instruction? yes?

Where is AVX512?

I'm not sure if wikipedia is correct?

Arrow Lake (microprocessor) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

->

Intel® Core™ Ultra 5 Processor 245K (24M Cache, up to 5.20 GHz) - Product Specifications | Intel

Intel® Core™ Ultra 5 Processor 245K (24M Cache, up to 5.20 GHz) quick reference with specifications, features, and technologies.

www.intel.com

check yourself how many instructions intel can not execute in comparison with a cheap entry processor from may 2023. (Hint: avx512_bf16 .... Any avx512.... is missing on intel side)

Sienna_Cichlid /home/roman # grep Ryzen /proc/cpuinfo |head -n 1; grep avx /proc/cpuinfo |head -n 1
model name    : AMD Ryzen 5 7600X 6-Core Processor
flags        : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 ht syscall nx mmxext fxsr_opt pdpe1gb rdtscp lm constant_tsc rep_good amd_lbr_v2 nopl xtopology nonstop_tsc cpuid extd_apicid aperfmperf rapl pni pclmulqdq monitor ssse3 fma cx16 sse4_1 sse4_2 movbe popcnt aes xsave avx f16c rdrand lahf_lm cmp_legacy svm extapic cr8_legacy abm sse4a misalignsse 3dnowprefetch osvw ibs skinit wdt tce topoext perfctr_core perfctr_nb bpext perfctr_llc mwaitx cpb cat_l3 cdp_l3 hw_pstate ssbd mba perfmon_v2 ibrs ibpb stibp ibrs_enhanced vmmcall fsgsbase bmi1 avx2 smep bmi2 erms invpcid cqm rdt_a avx512f avx512dq rdseed adx smap avx512ifma clflushopt clwb avx512cd sha_ni avx512bw avx512vl xsaveopt xsavec xgetbv1 xsaves cqm_llc cqm_occup_llc cqm_mbm_total cqm_mbm_local avx512_bf16 clzero irperf xsaveerptr rdpru wbnoinvd cppc arat npt lbrv svm_lock nrip_save tsc_scale vmcb_clean flushbyasid decodeassists pausefilter pfthreshold avic vgif x2avic v_spec_ctrl vnmi avx512vbmi umip pku ospke avx512_vbmi2 gfni vaes vpclmulqdq avx512_vnni avx512_bitalg avx512_vpopcntdq rdpid overflow_recov succor smca fsrm flush_l1d amd_lbr_pmc_freeze

A few days ago i checked some other cpu flag which intel did not even support and amd also removed later. FMA4 - nope / xop - nope

I state my statement from ages ago. Intel can not execute my code on those E-Cores. Fact. Just because windows 11 pro runs optimised code for i686 does not proof anything

further information of removed instruction

FMA instruction set - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

XOP instruction set - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nope for Intel desktop - as it seems

AVX-512 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

AVX512 is important

 

[JustBenching]

5800X3D was amazing at time of release and was/is amazing for anyone still on AM4 now and doesnt have a decent chunk of change to do a full MB/RAM/CPU swap. Otherwise going to AM5/Waiting for intels next release would be my advice currently. Advising/advocating for AM4 parts now is silly.

It was never really amazing. Today and on time of release it was always cheaper to just buy a new mobo and a new faster CPU than what the 5800x 3d cost on it's own. Not to mention that besides the gaming performance (which is pretty average for todays standards) the processing power is that of a calculator - even a 170$ i5 13600k just walks all over it. I always thought it's a CPU for people that are too bored to buy a new mobo and setup their PC (which is a valid reason to buy this, don't get me wrong) than it was really a good sensibly valued option.

 

[RootinTootinPootin]

Intel STILL can't beat 5800X3D, so a lot of MBs lol. Mine Oced on X370 ties OCed 14900K (not that there's any headroom lul). Absolutely pathetic.

I can smoke your 5800X3D with a 13600K (binned chip) and 8000MT's sticks on my Z790i Strix..before my son enjoyed my 1st 13900KS, he was rocking this chip and he has nothing bad to say, compared to his old Ryzen 9 5900X which was a stutter fest on COD during high motion game play..lol

AVX512 is important

Nope, on our daily normal lives, nope..AMD just went loolapallooza on this just to gain leverage vs Intel not adding this to their lineup..

I'd really say, you should try them both 1st before you'd throw out silly comments about needing this and that on the chip..I mean, I have them both now, I am just liking the ARL and RPL experience altogether without gaming hiccups..

 

[kondamin]

Nope, on our daily normal lives, nope..AMD just went loolapallooza on this just to gain leverage vs Intel not adding this to their lineup..

it's not important for most, but it is important for those who need it. Intel basically forced people who need it on to their server platform or the competition.
They should have offered P core only raptor lake consumer chips with avx 512 still functional. and not make them run at 50Thz so they explode when plugged in

 

[RootinTootinPootin]

it's not important for most, but it is important for those who need it. Intel basically forced people who need it on to their server platform or the competition.
They should have offered P core only raptor lake consumer chips with avx 512 still functional. and not make them run at 50Thz so they explode when plugged in

Give me an actual stat of those who bought who actually "needed" it and pretty much aware what it does. 7-zip users??

personally I would get an Epyc on AM5 if I needed a cheap server platform, its cheaper unlike Ryzen..

 

[ToxicTaZ]

I still do not know what instructions those E-cores can do or not do.

I build my gentoo-sources linux kernels since 2006. Only proof available is my forums.gentoo.org forum user.

There are so many unneeded patches and fixes in the kernel sourches. I highly doubt that quote ... linux performance. For what optimisations? Which cpuflags?

You may check yourself all those changes first. Especially those which dates back 2-5 months ago for e.g. the ~amd64 kernel sources.

All that bloat which is needed because of those E-Cores. still not properly executed. Years after Years.

Gentoo compiles most packages from source code. My ryzen 7600x is enough yet.

I highly doubt INTEL has any support for the AVX512 instruction. Does intel now support those instruction? yes?

Where is AVX512?

I'm not sure if wikipedia is correct?

Arrow Lake (microprocessor) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

->

Intel® Core™ Ultra 5 Processor 245K (24M Cache, up to 5.20 GHz) - Product Specifications | Intel

Intel® Core™ Ultra 5 Processor 245K (24M Cache, up to 5.20 GHz) quick reference with specifications, features, and technologies.

www.intel.com

check yourself how many instructions intel can not execute in comparison with a cheap entry processor from may 2023. (Hint: avx512_bf16 .... Any avx512.... is missing on intel side)

Sienna_Cichlid /home/roman # grep Ryzen /proc/cpuinfo |head -n 1; grep avx /proc/cpuinfo |head -n 1
model name    : AMD Ryzen 5 7600X 6-Core Processor
flags        : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 ht syscall nx mmxext fxsr_opt pdpe1gb rdtscp lm constant_tsc rep_good amd_lbr_v2 nopl xtopology nonstop_tsc cpuid extd_apicid aperfmperf rapl pni pclmulqdq monitor ssse3 fma cx16 sse4_1 sse4_2 movbe popcnt aes xsave avx f16c rdrand lahf_lm cmp_legacy svm extapic cr8_legacy abm sse4a misalignsse 3dnowprefetch osvw ibs skinit wdt tce topoext perfctr_core perfctr_nb bpext perfctr_llc mwaitx cpb cat_l3 cdp_l3 hw_pstate ssbd mba perfmon_v2 ibrs ibpb stibp ibrs_enhanced vmmcall fsgsbase bmi1 avx2 smep bmi2 erms invpcid cqm rdt_a avx512f avx512dq rdseed adx smap avx512ifma clflushopt clwb avx512cd sha_ni avx512bw avx512vl xsaveopt xsavec xgetbv1 xsaves cqm_llc cqm_occup_llc cqm_mbm_total cqm_mbm_local avx512_bf16 clzero irperf xsaveerptr rdpru wbnoinvd cppc arat npt lbrv svm_lock nrip_save tsc_scale vmcb_clean flushbyasid decodeassists pausefilter pfthreshold avic vgif x2avic v_spec_ctrl vnmi avx512vbmi umip pku ospke avx512_vbmi2 gfni vaes vpclmulqdq avx512_vnni avx512_bitalg avx512_vpopcntdq rdpid overflow_recov succor smca fsrm flush_l1d amd_lbr_pmc_freeze

A few days ago i checked some other cpu flag which intel did not even support and amd also removed later. FMA4 - nope / xop - nope

I state my statement from ages ago. Intel can not execute my code on those E-Cores. Fact. Just because windows 11 pro runs optimised code for i686 does not proof anything

further information of removed instruction

FMA instruction set - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

XOP instruction set - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nope for Intel desktop - as it seems

AVX-512 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

AVX512 is important

Intel AVX512 is used in Their high-end Intel Xeon 6 processor family.

What Is Intel® AVX-512? - Intel

Take advantage of integrated acceleration capabilities in Intel® Xeon® Scalable processors to efficiently power demanding workloads.

www.intel.com

Intel® Xeon® 6 Product Brief

Learn about Intel® Xeon® 6 processors delivering optimal performance and efficiency for AI/HPC and many other workloads.

www.intel.com

Not sure if Intel is bring AVX512 to next-gen Intel Nova Lake & Razer Lake LGA 1954 Socket platform.

Intel Razer Lake is what I'm interested in most likely my next RIG build. Second generation 3D bLLC Cache.

Cheers