difference between quick and full format and its effect on SSD vs HDD

[Solid State Soul ( SSS )]

so whenever i format a drive whether its a hard drive or a solid state drive, one thing i notice is that quick format takes mere seconds, while a full format can take over 30 minuets, sometimes hours on a hard drive, why is that ?

a quick google search telle me a full format checks for bad sectors on hard drive, is that true ? also how does a full format effect an SSD cause dont SSDs have trim support meaning their controller reallocate bad secotrs on their own whiteout the need for a bad sectors scan ?

is a full format bad for solid state drives that have trim support ?

 

[Solaris17]

Lots of questions

so whenever i format a drive whether its a hard drive or a solid state drive, one thing i notice is that quick format takes mere seconds, while a full format can take over 30 minuets, sometimes hours on a hard drive, why is that ?

because its just wiping the partition pointers

full format checks for bad sectors on hard drive, is that true ?

no it writes 0's to every sector, and if the sector is bad SMART will register it on its next update cycle, which makes the other half of the question irrelevant.

is a full format bad for solid state drives that have trim support ?

no

 

[Solid State Soul ( SSS )]

no it writes 0's to every sector, and if the sector is bad SMART will register it on its next update cycle, which makes the other half of the question irrelevant.

According to Microsoft a full format DOES check for bad sectors,

Another thing i found is that quick format deletes everything but leaves some sort of "data journal" that allows you to recover data, while a full format does not, so lets say i quick formatted the drive lots of times, will these data recovery points overlap or cause performance slowdowns that a full format might fix?

 

[chrcoluk]

Quick format basically just resets the metadata, reporting drive as ready for use and all existing data on drive is considered safe to overwrite but not actually overwritten until new data is put on the drive, thats why is so fast.

 

[Solaris17]

According to Microsoft a full format DOES check for bad sectors,

your right.

format

Reference article for the format command that formats a drive to accept Windows files.

learn.microsoft.com

Looks like this was changed in Windows 10.

 

[Solid State Soul ( SSS )]

Also according to Google bard, and chatGPT, they tell me that a bad sectors check writes data on each sector of the drive to check its health, meaning if you have a 500gb ssd, it'll write 500gb of data to check for bad sectors.

This is so stupid, some of us want to delete data without degrading the health of solid state drives or checking for bad sectors, according to AI the solution is to use software by ssd makers to do a full format without degrading ssd health

 

[Solaris17]

Also according to Google bard, and chatGPT, they tell me that a bad sectors check writes data on each sector of the drive to check its health, meaning if you have a 500gb ssd, it'll write 500gb of data to check for bad sectors.

I mean yeah. Like I said, a full format in this case whether it was old or new that includes the sector record by default is writing zeros to the drive (thats how its doing the sector check you cant do them without writing data).

This is so stupid, some of us want to delete data without degrading the health of solid state drives or checking for bad sectors, according to AI the solution is to use software by ssd makers to do a full format without degrading ssd health

oh geez, dont assume an HDD sector has the same physical properties or is controlled in the same way SSDs handle NAND.

The operations and wear leveling on such devices are trivial. If you experiencing wear out because of full formats then your drive has physical problems or is so old and you do it so often that wear leveling cant fix it.

man chatGPT couldnt even write the summary of my resume correctly and now people are using it as fact for complex machine functions.

 

[Solid State Soul ( SSS )]

oh geez, dont assume an HDD sector has the same physical properties or is controlled in the same way SSDs handle NAND.

As we know HDDs dont have endurance rating, they have measured time before failure, so unlike HDDs, doing a full format does reduce endurance rating of ssds, this is unacceptable, there should be an option to unchecked sectors scan when doing a full format, the point of it is to erase data not just the file allocation table, and not having the option to do so without a sectors scan that prolong such trivial matter to over 30 minuets is stupid.

Do we really have to download bespoke ssd softwares to completely erase data without a sectors scan? Is Microsoft really that stupid?

 

[Solaris17]

unchecked sectors scan when doing a full format

there is too much wrong with that entire post. But please, enlighten me. Since a full format pre sector check and post sector check still wrote 0's to every sector in which what way do you think no sector check is faster? Are we counting µs?

 

[Solid State Soul ( SSS )]

there is too much wrong with that entire post. But please, enlighten me. Since a full format pre sector check and post sector check still wrote 0's to every sector in which what way do you think no sector check is faster? Are we counting µs?

Here is the answer i got from google bard:

"Yes, a full format can degrade the endurance rating of an SSD. This is because writing zeros to a sector still counts as a write operation, even though it is not as destructive as writing ones.

When you perform a full format on an SSD, the drive controller will write zeros to every sector on the drive. This means that you will be using up some of the drive's write endurance rating. The amount of write endurance that you use will depend on the size of the drive and the number of sectors that are written.
For example, if you have a 1TB SSD with a write endurance rating of 100 TBW, and you perform a full format, you will use up about 1% of the drive's write endurance rating. This means that the drive will still have 99% of its write endurance rating remaining.

Here are some tips for extending the lifespan of your SSD:

• Avoid performing full formats unless you really need to.
• Use a quick format whenever possible.
• Do not fill your SSD to capacity.
• Avoid storing large files that are constantly being written to and deleted.
• Use an SSD-aware operating system and file system.

By following these tips, you can help to extend the lifespan of your SSD and keep it running smoothly for many years to come"

 

[Solaris17]

i got from google bard:

neat.

So what about my question? The one you quoted.

 

[Wirko]

As we know HDDs dont have endurance rating, they have measured time before failure, so unlike HDDs, doing a full format does reduce endurance rating of ssds, this is unacceptable, there should be an option to unchecked sectors scan when doing a full format, the point of it is to erase data not just the file allocation table, and not having the option to do so without a sectors scan that prolong such trivial matter to over 30 minuets is stupid.

Do we really have to download bespoke ssd softwares to completely erase data without a sectors scan? Is Microsoft really that stupid?

It all depends on what you're trying to achieve.

If you just want to erase all data to make room for new data, a quick format is enough.

If you need to securely erase data because you're going to sell the HDD or SSD, you need a full format. And then filling the disk with Linux images. And then another full format. That should be enough for commoners (but business and military standards may be more demanding than that).

If you want to check for bad sectors on a HDD, a full format is also necessary. This ensures that all sectors will be rewritten (probably multiple times with different combinations of 0s and 1s) and checked, even those that belong to files that don't change.

However, a SSD has to perform wear leveling anyway. During the use, sooner or later all sectors get rewritten, even if most files don't change. Rewriting also means checking, so all sectors also get checked, and marked as bad if they're bad. Full format is therefore not of much use.

 

[Solid State Soul ( SSS )]

neat.

So what about my question? The one you quoted.

From what you tell me a full sector Scan is necessary for a full format, correct?

But my worries is the degradation to ssd endurance, which according to Google bard, does effect it and should only be used when necessary.... Sigh... Yeah ssds more reliable... Cool

 

[Solaris17]

a quick format is enough.

if your fancy you could use OPAL, SED drives and or bitlocker or lvm (FS) encryption depending on OS. that may be a good compromise to use quick format. The technologies have come so far the performance impact if any is negligible especially for normal users.

 

[Solid State Soul ( SSS )]

It all depends on what you're trying to achieve.

If you just want to erase all data to make room for new data, a quick format is enough.

If you need to securely erase data because you're going to sell the HDD or SSD, you need a full format. And then filling the disk with Linux images. And then another full format. That should be enough for commoners (but business and military standards may be more demanding than that).

If you want to check for bad sectors on a HDD, a full format is also necessary. This ensures that all sectors will be rewritten (probably multiple times with different combinations of 0s and 1s) and checked, even those that belong to files that don't change.

However, a SSD has to perform wear leveling anyway. During the use, sooner or later all sectors get rewritten, even if most files don't change. Rewriting also means checking, so all sectors also get checked, and marked as bad if they're bad. Full format is therefore not of much use.

Thank you for the detailed explanation, my question boils down to is it possible to erase data on ssd without full sectors check with zeroes and ones rewrites that possibly reduce the endurance rating of said ssd?

 

[Wirko]

Thank you for the detailed explanation, my question boils down to is it possible to erase data on ssd without full sectors check with zeroes and ones rewrites that possibly reduce the endurance rating of said ssd?

The "secure erase" operation will do exactly that, if I undestand these things right.

How to Securely Erase an SSD or HDD Before Selling It or Your PC

If you're selling your PC or storage drive, you need to wipe it.

www.tomshardware.com

What you need is a utility that can quickly get at all the visible data. Some SSD makers provide secure erase utilities for free and some motherboard BIOSes have "secure erase" capability built in. These tools effectively reset your SSD to a factory state, with even the OP blocks wiped.

(OP = overprovisioning, the part that isn't normally visible to the OS).

 

[chrcoluk]

Agree with solaris, windows routinely writes multiple gigs a day in normal use, a one off 500 gig write if that was enough to cause problems, then the drive would be dead soon anyway.

For reference just speed testing my SN850x in crystal diskmark, five runs wrote 150 gig to the drive (only clicked test once, the 5 runs means 5 test runs configured), the size of the test file is not the total size of the write as it loops it. So if you ok with benches as an example dont worry about a full format.

 

[Solid State Soul ( SSS )]

For reference just speed testing my SN850x in crystal diskmark, five runs wrote 150 gig to the drive (only clicked test once, the 5 runs means 5 test runs configured), the size of the test file is not the total size of the write as it loops it. So if you ok with benches as an example dont worry about a full format.

That's so weird, i also have an nvme drive on laptop and I've been using it simply for browsing and watching movies, about a month later i opened crystal disk info and it said total host writes 584gb.....wtf... Is that really normal?

 

[freeagent]

I always thought it was bad to format an SSD? I have been using the windows installer to wipe a drive in one fell swoop and then to set it up

 

[Ruru]

I always thought it was bad to format an SSD? I have been using the windows installer to wipe a drive in one fell swoop and then to set it up

Nah, formatting is fine. Though I've usually used secure erase from BIOS when available, otherwise the Win installer has worked fine here too.

 

[chrcoluk]

That's so weird, i also have an nvme drive on laptop and I've been using it simply for browsing and watching movies, about a month later i opened crystal disk info and it said total host writes 584gb.....wtf... Is that really normal?

Yes, if it only written the file test size on benchmark, it would be done in less than a second on NVME, so it loops for set time.

On browsing etc. browsers are actually heavy on writes and do cache streaming video content (even though its usually not needed), You can use a ramdisk for your browser temporary storage or Firefox can disable on disk cache completely and just use built in ram cache instead. But even then it isnt needed to do this on modern drives.

My OS drive has used about 5221gig of writes in about a year of usage for the OS (and some games). 6484 power on hours (270 days approx power on time).

Drive is rated for 600 TBW, and I have done 5.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Here is the answer i got from google bard:

"Yes, a full format can degrade the endurance rating of an SSD. This is because writing zeros to a sector still counts as a write operation, even though it is not as destructive as writing ones.

When you perform a full format on an SSD, the drive controller will write zeros to every sector on the drive. This means that you will be using up some of the drive's write endurance rating. The amount of write endurance that you use will depend on the size of the drive and the number of sectors that are written.
For example, if you have a 1TB SSD with a write endurance rating of 100 TBW, and you perform a full format, you will use up about 1% of the drive's write endurance rating. This means that the drive will still have 99% of its write endurance rating remaining.

Here are some tips for extending the lifespan of your SSD:

• Avoid performing full formats unless you really need to.
• Use a quick format whenever possible.
• Do not fill your SSD to capacity.
• Avoid storing large files that are constantly being written to and deleted.
• Use an SSD-aware operating system and file system.

By following these tips, you can help to extend the lifespan of your SSD and keep it running smoothly for many years to come"

That's funny, it's like it learned by reading forum posts from the early 2010s where people didn't trust SSD technology at all and were overly concerned about endurance ratings (often trying to justify their resistance to spending money on a new storage technology and trusting their data to something they did not understand), I recall people raving about relics such as the WD Velociraptor drives as alternatives even though the likelihood of a hot, loud, fragile 15,000 RPM hard drive to fail is much higher than any SSD ever built.

 

[csendesmark]

That's funny, it's like it learned by reading forum posts from the early 2010s where people didn't trust SSD technology at all and were overly concerned about endurance ratings (often trying to justify their resistance to spending money on a new storage technology and trusting their data to something they did not understand), I recall people raving about relics such as the WD Velociraptor drives as alternatives even though the likelihood of a hot, loud, fragile 15,000 RPM hard drive to fail is much higher than any SSD ever built.

The most important data is still being stored on hard disks and magnetic tape, and likely will not change in the near future.
Also would like to say that recovering data from a faulty hard disk (if it's not fallen and shattered) is much easier and "cheaper".
While an failed SSD's NAND chip's data recovery is tricky, if it's possible at all.

 

[Dr. Dro]

The most important data is still being stored on hard disks and magnetic tape, and likely will not change in the near future.
Also would like to say that recovering data from a faulty hard disk (if it's not fallen and shattered) is much easier and "cheaper".
While an failed SSD's NAND chip's data recovery is tricky, if it's possible at all.

Agreed, although, speaking from a consumer-level standpoint, both of those are relatively obsolete mediums... I use HDDs only for cheap cold storage

 

[csendesmark]

Agreed, although, speaking from a consumer-level standpoint, both of those are relatively obsolete mediums... I use HDDs only for cheap cold storage

Yes, I agree - for consumer level you will be fine with one good 2TB SSD,
But you brought up the 15000 RPM WD raptors and early adaptors for SSDs which were hardly for the average home pc user
I remember how badly I wanted a raptor which costed about 5 times more /GB, but never could afford those, then got a 96 GB SSD in 2010 (or was it 11?) and everything changed!