Help understanding the current "DDR4 landscape"

[Nicholas Peyton]

Hi guys,

I'm coming across from the AMD platform with a new build I'm planning.

So a bit of a newb with all this DDR4 and Samsung B DIE stuff.

-----------------
Say I asked:

"With the Z270 APEX mobo (which I'm almost sold on).

• Would I be better grabbing a 3600 CS 16 kit and manually tuning it to 4133 CS 19
• Or just buying the 4133 CS 19 kit?"

Say this question was kindly answered as follows:

"I'm quite sure most 3600 CS 16 kits will be able to hit 4133 at CS 19".

---CS 19 is the advertised latency on all G.skill 4133/4266 parts anyway!!

So! before I go off now and search for my new RAM; I realised I might ask this last question):

If there's two kits available: (example only)

• a 3600 CS 16
  and a
• 3600 CS 17

And the CS 17's cheaper...
--can I still tune into a 4133/4266 memory clock on a CS17 kit?
--or would a CS 16 3600 kit still be recommended?

OR - IN OTHER WORDS: (maybe a better way of explaining this)
Are the 3600 CS 17 kits still Samsung B die.. ? or is B die limited to 3600 CS 15/16?

I know Samsung B die is important for Ryen; but even on Kaby-lake most records have still been broken using Samsung B die.

(Thank you; & I appreciate any steer someone can provide).


P.S.
I don't see the point in paying for a top-end board that can do 4266Mhz ram, if I'm not going to run it with ram at that speed


Nick Peyton

 

[cadaveca]

You're wasting your time going for speeds that high. Just get a kit with 3600 MHz 16-16-16-36 timings, most likely found in G.Skill ram.


CAS (the first number) isn't so important; it's all of the first three that matter. 16-18-18-xx sticks will not clock as well as 16-16-16-36 sticks, from my experience.

It is very hard to get 4000 MHz. Many boards simply will not do it. I wouldn't trust that Apex to be able (mine is not). You need to buy that MOST EXPENSIVE ROG board for good memory clocking; that's part of what the pricier ROG boards offer. So go for the EXTREME, or be prepared for many frustrations.

Also be aware that many CPU/board combos on Z270 can run 3600 MHz will all slots full, but going higher usually restricts you to 2 sticks only.

 

[Nicholas Peyton]

You're wasting your time going for speeds that high. Just get a kit with 3600 MHz 16-16-16-36 timings, most likely found in G.Skill ram.


CAS (the first number) isn't so important; it's all of the first three that matter. 16-18-18-xx sticks will not clock as well as 16-16-16-36 sticks, from my experience.

It is very hard to get 4000 MHz. Many boards simply will not do it. I wouldn't trust that Apex to be able (mine is not). You need to buy that MOST EXPENSIVE ROG board for good memory clocking; that's part of what the pricier ROG boards offer. So go for the EXTREME, or be prepared for many frustrations.

Also be aware that many CPU/board combos on Z270 can run 3600 MHz will all slots full, but going higher usually restricts you to 2 sticks only.

Thanks;

Does this one look okay? (Samsung B die)?

https://www.lambda-tek.com/shop/?region=GB&prodID=B2678793

Hoping to get it to 4000.

The ROG APEX states it does up to 4266 (even the Formula only claims 4133) and the QVL list at g.skill lists all the 4266+ kits on the apex only

 

[cadaveca]

I'd say yes. How far you can OC will vary with each stick, of course, but they should scale well. Usually with 2 sticks, one is a fair bit better than the other (I used to bin each stick from kits individually, combine the best I could find from multiple kits, but then, I like to OC ram to the moon and back, but for benchmarking, not for 24/7 use )

Clocking ram high for 24/7 use can be problematic because of the high required VCCSA/IO voltages required. 3600 MHz with 4 sticks can be done on a good chip with roughly 1.25V or less (mine needs 1.2V only), but some chips need 1.35V... and that's too high for 24/7 IMHO.

 

[Nicholas Peyton]

okay thanks a bunch!

think I've finally picked my parts out

it was so stressful lol:

G.Skill F4-3600C16D-16GTZ - G.Skill 16GB DDR4-3600 16GB DDR4 3600MHz memory module (16GB(8GBx2) G...
Quantity £159.81

ASUS 90MB0T90-M0EAY0 - ASUS ROG MAXIMUS IX APEX Intel Z270 ATX motherboard (Asus ROG MAXIMUS IX A...
Quantity £209.15

Intel BX80677I77700K - Intel Core i7-7700K 4.2GHz 8MB Smart Cache Box processor (Intel Core I7-77...
Quantity £265.67

Prices don't include 20% tax


Upgrading from an old AMD FX-8350

 

[cadaveca]

Looks good to me. You should love it, coming from FX-8350. I's just suggest adding in a 256 GB Samsung 950 PRO or 960 PRO M.2 drive for OS and a few apps... if you can afford it.

 

[Enterprise24]

3600 CL16 is best for extreme benching like 4000-4133 12-11-11-28 1.9V+. But I am sure it will overclock to 4133+ 24/7 also. Depend on IMC. Motherboard shouldn't be an issue since you choose the strongest board APEX.

4266 kit is made for 24/7 efficiency I have seen some user overclock it to 4300+ HCI 1000%+stable on APEX.

Alex@RO (extreme overclocker) said that 4266 kit can't even do 4000 12-12-12-28 and the RGB version is worst than non RGB version probably because some PCB issue that is relate to RGB.

Here is my 3600 CL17 overclock to 4167 17-18-18-38 running HCI @ 1400%. 3600 CL 16 will do even better. For example my 4000 need 16-17-17 to pass HCI while my friend's 3600 CL16 need 16-16-16 to do the same thing.

 

[Nicholas Peyton]

3600 CL16 is best for extreme benching like 4000-4133 12-11-11-28 1.9V+. But I am sure it will overclock to 4133+ 24/7 also. Depend on IMC. Motherboard shouldn't be an issue since you choose the strongest board APEX.

4266 kit is made for 24/7 efficiency I have seen some user overclock it to 4300+ HCI 1000%+stable on APEX.

Alex@RO (extreme overclocker) said that 4266 kit can't even do 4000 12-12-12-28 and the RGB version is worst than non RGB version probably because some PCB issue that is relate to RGB.

Here is my 3600 CL17 overclock to 4167 17-18-18-38 running HCI @ 1400%. 3600 CL 16 will do even better. For example my 4000 need 16-17-17 to pass HCI while my friend's 3600 CL16 need 16-16-16 to do the same thing.

absoluetely perfect, that's exactly what I was looking for (coz these are the roomers I've been hearing) and you confirmed it all nicely.

I hope to deer god that the G.Skill 2x8GB DDR4-3600 Trident Z 16-16-16-36-2N, 1.35v kit is one of the good ones!

£200 is a lot to spend on memory for it not to do what I *hope*

 

[cadaveca]

Motherboard shouldn't be an issue since you choose the strongest board APEX.

I guess I got a crap APEX. But that's good to hear though, since I can then talk about this in my review of the APEX.

absoluetely perfect, that's exactly what I was looking for (coz these are the roomers I've been hearing) and you confirmed it all nicely.

I hope to deer god that the G.Skill 2x8GB DDR4-3600 Trident Z 16-16-16-36-2N, 1.35v kit is one of the good ones!

£200 is a lot to spend on memory for it not to do what I *hope*

All these memories use the same IC underneath; it's the binning that changes how they clock a bit, IMHO. Either way, you know, as I mentioned, I bin for those "extreme" OC, and @Enterprise24 kind of confirmed that it is the right choice for those uses. To me, the best Extreme sticks have been great for 24/7 use, and as Enterprise24 said, the 4266 kit doesn't seem to want to clock like the 3600 does... to me, this is because of that binning for straight timings across the main three (I mean all the same).

 

[erixx]

Dave, sorry to bug you. When you said above "but some chips need 1.35V... and that's too high for 24/7 IMHO." Did you mean RAM Voltage or CPU voltage? Because 1,35 v is just the advertised voltage for the XMP profile. I never heard about being that too high for 24h use! Should I try to lower RAM voltage from 1,35 downwards?

BTW1: Maybe we can form a club-thread, yesterday i installed a MSI Z270 Xpower + 7700K@4800@1,3v + 16GB(4x4) Gskill TridentZ 3866@1,35v and the XMP profile works good. For now I leave it at that, I am not searching records but top power for daily work and games!)

BTW2: I have been observing carefully Aida64 graphs regarding "spiking", and my temps do not spike. But if you use "Balanced power profile", the CPU speed jumps up and down very quickly (4800-3600-2400-800-4800-800...etc etc hopping around every 5 seconds...) That's seems more than on previous platforms. Is Energy Saving getting this aggressive?

 

[R-T-B]

deer god

Sorry, a long time ago on a forum I hosted the internet would rather forget, this pun was kinda my thing...

 

[erixx]

Let's praise the Godvaddr raising our Gundestrup cauldron!

 

[cadaveca]

Dave, sorry to bug you. When you said above "but some chips need 1.35V... and that's too high for 24/7 IMHO." Did you mean RAM Voltage or CPU voltage? Because 1,35 v is just the advertised voltage for the XMP profile. I never heard about being that too high for 24h use! Should I try to lower RAM voltage from 1,35 downwards?

I am referring to VCCSA and I/O voltages, not DIMM voltage.

BTW2: I have been observing carefully Aida64 graphs regarding "spiking", and my temps do not spike. But if you use "Balanced power profile", the CPU speed jumps up and down very quickly (4800-3600-2400-800-4800-800...etc etc hopping around every 5 seconds...) That's seems more than on previous platforms. Is Energy Saving getting this aggressive?

Yep, it is.

 

[Nicholas Peyton]

Dave, sorry to bug you. When you said above "but some chips need 1.35V... and that's too high for 24/7 IMHO." Did you mean RAM Voltage or CPU voltage? Because 1,35 v is just the advertised voltage for the XMP profile. I never heard about being that too high for 24h use! Should I try to lower RAM voltage from 1,35 downwards?

BTW1: Maybe we can form a club-thread, yesterday i installed a MSI Z270 Xpower + 7700K@4800@1,3v + 16GB(4x4) Gskill TridentZ 3866@1,35v and the XMP profile works good. For now I leave it at that, I am not searching records but top power for daily work and games!)

BTW2: I have been observing carefully Aida64 graphs regarding "spiking", and my temps do not spike. But if you use "Balanced power profile", the CPU speed jumps up and down very quickly (4800-3600-2400-800-4800-800...etc etc hopping around every 5 seconds...) That's seems more than on previous platforms. Is Energy Saving getting this aggressive?

Good call.




---------------




And thanks again for all the replies, everyone. Much appreciated.


P.S.
@cadaveca I'd love to have also ordered the m.2 SSD; but I've already kind of blown my budget lol
Going to be eating bread and water for 3 weeks lol.
And I'm still desperate to order a waterblock for my new 1080Ti.

If I hadn't just paid a fine for being in a "bus lane" lol; I'd already have the block in the post.

But looks like it may have to wait until next month; then month after that for the M.2

I think I'm in for a treat when everything comes, hope the extra performance lives up to the hype (feels like I'm finally soo close to having my dream machine lol)!

 

[Enterprise24]

I guess I got a crap APEX. But that's good to hear though, since I can then talk about this in my review of the APEX.

Haha luck of the draw again ?

Some extreme overclockers need to "bin" ASUS motherboard like M8E and M8I to get better result. They said that every board perform differently. Maybe this happen in Z270 again