Why doesn't every house have solar installed?

[Frick]

Solar installations are an expense. Just like PCs, EnergyStar refrigerators, double-glazed windows, electric cards. Spending money might make you feel like you're doing the right thing for the environment but it depends on how many renewables are generating your current electricity (which will probably grow over time). From a carbon footprint standpoint, these residential solar installations are not environmentally lightweight.

No there is definitely a calculation to be made here. It's like heating, after X number of years the installation and the costs associated with it will be lower than what you would have payed if you hadn't installed the thing. That's the reason people do these things. "Feeling good about oneself" is not something people spend that kind of money on. It's like installing heat pumps, or geothermal heating, or sure replacing those really old drafty windows with modern windows: it's a big enough expense people really take a hard look at the cost and what it will do with the montly expenses going forward and at what point those two will cross (meaning At this point we're actually saving money on this). Also it's really quite silly to equate a new fridge with installing solar panels, or even buying an electric car.

 

[cvaldes]

No there is definitely a calculation to be made here. It's like heating, after X number of years the installation and the costs associated with it will be lower than what you would have payed if you hadn't installed the thing. That's the reason people do these things. "Feeling good about oneself" is not something people spend that kind of money on. It's like installing heat pumps, or geothermal heating, or sure replacing those really old drafty windows with modern windows: it's a big enough expense people really take a hard look at the cost and what it will do with the montly expenses going forward and at what point those two will cross (meaning At this point we're actually saving money on this). Also it's really quite silly to equate a new fridge with installing solar panels, or even buying an electric car.

Well the expense of a new residential solar installation obviously does require an analysis which apparently the OP wasn't aware of. I just used the fridge/electric car analogy because clearly some people in this discussion can't seem to grasp any of the major factors that influence these sort of purchase decisions.

Yes, there's the initial cost. There's the ongoing maintenance costs. There's the savings and when the breakeven point will be. There's the big question of if the occupant will still be in the property when this happens. There are a lot of guesstimates made like the fluctuation of electricity prices, loss of system efficiency, risk of major damage, etc.

I'm just very perplexed why someone would ask why doesn't every house have a solar installation. IT'S NOT FREE. And that doesn't even include the obvious impediments like poor climate, bad sun exposure, multi-unit dwellings, etc. The whole inquiry is pretty bizarre to begin with but this is happening with increasing regularity on the Internet in general (and not just TPU).

So strange. But that's just the way online literacy is in 2024...

 

[dgianstefani]

Today I installed a 430 W panel (only 22% efficient not the new perovskite ones), 280 Ah Fogstar LIFEPO4 battery (8000 cycles @80% charge, 3000 W peak draw, and a ten year warranty, with a heater and Bluetooth), and a 100/30 Victron charge controller (also with Bluetooth) on my campervan. Total cost £1100 and beer money for hydration (essential). Of that cost the vast majority was on the battery, at £680. Home solar does not necessarily need battery storage, but it is a good thing in general.

The issue with home solar is people pay companies that are in my opinion borderline scammers, ~10k to get ~2k of hardware installed.

Do it yourself and have an electrician certify the work for insurance. Or at least source the hardware yourself and pay a contractor to mess about on the roof for a day if that makes insurance easier.

There are hundreds of videos of people installing their own solar.

 

[cvaldes]

Today I installed a 430 W panel (only 22% efficient not the new perovskite ones), 280 Ah Fogstar LIFEPO4 battery (8000 cycles @80% charge, 3000 W peak draw, and a ten year warranty, with a heater and Bluetooth), and a 100/30 Victron charge controller (also with Bluetooth) on my campervan. Total cost £1100 and beer money for hydration. Of that cost the vast majority was on the battery, at £680. Home solar does not necessarily need battery storage, but it is a good thing in general.

The issue with home solar is people pay companies that are in my opinion borderline scammers, ~10k to get ~2k of hardware installed.

Well, as far as I can tell, it's not the type of job that a typical tinkerer can do. It's one thing to paint your house, even plant new landscaping, etc.

But something like a solar installation takes more knowledge than the typical weekend DIYer has. I'm doubtful that the local utility company will let some random schmuck tie their DIY solar installation into the power company's grid.

I can change a wall outlet, maybe rewire a light fixture but I'm not really qualified to pick wires that would carry power to my house.

What do I do? Watch a TikTok showing me how to save money with a DIY solar installation from parts I can buy at El Solar Por Nada?

This is a good example of tech pundits not see the forest of the trees. It's just like those people who say, "yeah, just fire up your soldering iron and replace the caps. It's easy." Yeah, if you do this regularly, like run your own PC repair shop.

This is like telling random people to baking their own wedding cake for the 200-guest event. In fact, it's way worse. If someone flubs their wedding cake, they have a lot some sugar, eggs, flour, etc. It's not like they risk burning down their residence.

I don't know what they do in Wales but at least here in California electricians need to take certification tests, get licenses, acquire insurance, and essentially prove that they have the knowledge how to properly do these sort of installations. Sure, there are scammer electricians but there are also pros that charge an honest rate. They aren't all crooks. I have a little more faith in the local tradespeople.

And if an electrical contractor says they have been in business for forty years and have done hundreds of these installations shouldn't that make me feel confident? I paid for someone to install new windows in my unit. Guess what? There are only 3-4 window companies that our HOA has approved to do this kind of work. When the estimator came by to look at my unit, I asked him how long he had been working for his window company. He replied "29 years."

Or should I have driven to the nearest Home Depot (big box hardware store chain) and asked some day labourers hanging out in the parking lot to install my windows. I would have saved a lot of money!

Thanks for the laughs! Great way to break up the monotony of the overly sane Internet of 2024!

Ahahahahahahahahahaa!!!!!!!!

 

[dgianstefani]

Why does it need to be tied into the power grid? There's literally off the shelf battery solutions sold by Anker with a replacement power box you get the electrician to install. You have auto switch onto battery power using existing house circuitry if there's a power cut.

Or you do it manually if you calculate it happens to be cheaper than grid prices e.g using grid when it's cheap and solar/battery wear at peak times.

Even with the joke prices companies charge to do full solar installations it still works out as saving money in the long term, plus you generally get better quality power than that off the grid anyway.

As a side note, very impressed with this battery hardware.

 

[Shrek]

Why does it need to be tied into the power grid?

Because you would like power at night?

 

[dgianstefani]

Because you would like power at night?

Batteries?

My comment was why do you need the solar installation to feed back into the grid. Not why would you want to be connected to the grid.

You're already connected to the grid (I assume).

Well, as far as I can tell, it's not the type of job that a typical tinkerer can do. It's one thing to paint your house, even plant new landscaping, etc.

But something like a solar installation takes more knowledge than the typical weekend DIYer has. I'm doubtful that the local utility company will let some random schmuck tie their DIY solar installation into the power company's grid.

I can change a wall outlet, maybe rewire a light fixture but I'm not really qualified to pick wires that would carry power to my house.

What do I do? Watch a TikTok showing me how to save money with a DIY solar installation from parts I can buy at El Solar Por Nada?

This is a good example of tech pundits not see the forest of the trees. It's just like those people who say, "yeah, just fire up your soldering iron and replace the caps. It's easy." Yeah, if you do this regularly, like run your own PC repair shop.

This is like telling random people to baking their own wedding cake for the 200-guest event. In fact, it's way worse. If someone flubs their wedding cake, they have a lot some sugar, eggs, flour, etc. It's not like they risk burning down their residence.

I don't know what they do in Wales but at least here in California electricians need to take certification tests, get licenses, acquire insurance, and essentially prove that they have the knowledge how to properly do these sort of installations. Sure, there are scammer electricians but there are also pros that charge an honest rate. They aren't all crooks. I have a little more faith in the local tradespeople.

And if an electrical contractor says they have been in business for forty years and have done hundreds of these installations shouldn't that make me feel confident? I paid for someone to install new windows in my unit. Guess what? There are only 3-4 window companies that our HOA has approved to do this kind of work. When the estimator came by to look at my unit, I asked him how long he had been working for his window company. He replied "29 years."

Or should I have driven to the nearest Home Depot (big box hardware store chain) and asked some day labourers hanging out in the parking lot to install my windows. I would have saved a lot of money!

Thanks for the laughs! Great way to break up the monotony of the overly sane Internet of 2024!

Ahahahahahahahahahaa!!!!!!!!

If you're not comparable connecting a positive and negative, which when it boils down to it is all these panels are, then sure, I can see how this could be an intimidating project. That and Californian HOA which I sympathise with having to deal with.

*comfortable

 

[cvaldes]

Ah, I think part of the issue is you're in Wales.

Americans live in monstrous mansions with central heating and A/C (the latter is always electrically powered). It's difficult to install an affordable off-grid battery backed solar power system that will drive an A/C unit at 10pm (long after the sun has set) even though it's still 87F.

A completely off-grid battery-backed system is probably possible in a small number of cases but not in A/C lovin' 'Merica. A/C unit will suck that battery dry in no time.

Most of the battery-backed solar installations in the US are tied into a house with special wiring. The battery will support lighting, the refrigerator, etc. But there's no way in hell an affordable residential setup would include the A/C or major appliances (washer, dryer).

 

[dgianstefani]

Ah, I think part of the issue is you're in Wales.

Americans live in monstrous mansions with central heating and A/C (the latter is always electrically powered). It's difficult to install an affordable off-grid battery backed solar power system that will drive an A/C unit at 10pm (long after the sun has set) even though it's still 87F.

A completely off-grid battery-backed system is probably possible in a small number of cases but not in A/C lovin' 'Merica.

I disagree. I mean batteries are really at the point where they're *very* good now. The one I bought is only about twice the size of a car battery but it can power a 3000 W power tool. You can sync up to four of those on one line, before needing to go up a tier of battery.

Also a lot of the hassle is when you're doing off grid mobile installations, since you have the whole 12-230 V conversion and back, on a house it's just 230 V, or in burger land 120 V as I understand, so less complexity.

Like I said though, Anker (and many others) offer off the shelf battery solutions if you don't feel like DIYing it.

 

[cvaldes]

I disagree. I mean batteries are really at the point where they're *very* good now. The one I bought is only about twice the size of a car battery but it can power a 3000 W power tool. You can sync up to four of those on one line, before needing to go up a tier of battery.

Also a lot of the hassle is when you're doing off grid mobile installations, since you have the whole 12-230 V conversion and back, on a house it's just 230 V, or in burger land 120 V as I understand, so less complexity.

The regular receptables and wiring is 120V here. However a lot of American houses also have higher voltage circuits, primarily for major appliances: oven/range/stove, washer, dryer, maybe heating/AC. I'm talking about the whole house central A/C systems, not the little in-wall/window-mounted units.

These days when someone puts in an electric vehicle charger, there's always a higher voltage line brought in from the street (240V). Makes zero sense run another 120V line.

So actually more complexity because we use two voltages even though all consumer electronics are 120V, especially in the properties that have the room for a solar installation with batteries.

It's not just "12V" panels in American houses.

Same with businesses. The electric company provides both 120V and 240V. If you were running a restaurant you'd definitely have both services running into your building. Nothing new about this. Back in the Nineties when I was working at a Fortune 500 company we had plans to move buildings and have a computer lab. We needed to give the building planners our requirements for power, both 120V (desktop systems) and 240V (servers), even draw them on a floorplan.

Even when you go appliance shopping you need to know what voltage you have in your property.

And at least where I live, the city will send an inspector to examine the electrical work to make sure it's up to code and properly installed. And I totally agree with this. Letting random schmucks with varying levels of expertise do their own electrical work is a formula for disaster. I don't want my building to burn down because one of my neighbors installed their new A/C unit with the wrong wire gauge, twisted the wire nut the wrong direction or spliced two wires because they ran out in the middle of the run.

If you live on a desert island, sure, feel free to do your own solar panel installation. But if the place burns down and the fire department doesn't show up, don't blame the island government.

Again, not seeing the forest for the trees. Completely out of touch with reality. You're just perusing spec sheets and saying it looks easy not giving any thought to how it might affect anyone else (like the next door neighbor). I can say this with honesty: I am grateful you don't live in my complex.

 

[Frick]

Today I installed a 430 W panel (only 22% efficient not the new perovskite ones), 280 Ah Fogstar LIFEPO4 battery (8000 cycles @80% charge, 3000 W peak draw, and a ten year warranty, with a heater and Bluetooth), and a 100/30 Victron charge controller (also with Bluetooth) on my campervan. Total cost £1100 and beer money for hydration (essential). Of that cost the vast majority was on the battery, at £680. Home solar does not necessarily need battery storage, but it is a good thing in general.

The issue with home solar is people pay companies that are in my opinion borderline scammers, ~10k to get ~2k of hardware installed.

Do it yourself and have an electrician certify the work for insurance. Or at least source the hardware yourself and pay a contractor to mess about on the roof for a day if that makes insurance easier.

There are hundreds of videos of people installing their own solar.

This is hugely dependant on where you live though. Where I live you're definitely not allowed to do something like that on your own; it requires authorized electricians. You probably could mount the panels but connecting them up (enter rules about voltagages and amps) will require professionals.

I'm just very perplexed why someone would ask why doesn't every house have a solar installation. IT'S NOT FREE. And that doesn't even include the obvious impediments like poor climate, bad sun exposure, multi-unit dwellings, etc. The whole inquiry is pretty bizarre to begin with but this is happening with increasing regularity on the Internet in general (and not just TPU).

So strange. But that's just the way online literacy is in 2024...

Ok so this will be my final say on this (hopefully): It is a legit question. Why would you consider not just knowing the answer illiteracy? It's not bizarre at all. We have roads and electricity for basically every house, why aren't those houses partly self powered at this point? I haven't read all the posts either of course, but the question makes sense today.

 

[Waldorf]

@c aldes
except those things are more the problem of a country (for whatever reason), not really solar tech itself.
many places outside of cities have limits height and/or its common to not have more than 2-3 stories, and many countries wont require lengthy "surveys", short of total output/structural stuff and the like.
ignoring that outside the U.S. many regulations are different, incl things like fixed conditions for loans/interest/tax breaks etc.

and most european countries do ~200-240V, so again, only an issue with the US, meaning 5% of the global population.
just because its "not working" somewhere, doesnt mean everywhere else too.

friend installed solar on the whole roof,system produces more power during the summer than the large house incl heated pool uses, producing up to 200kw/day, and making same/more money to cover interest, and thats in germany, which is roughly Washington state, not florida.

we buy other things of large value that dont increase in return, e.g. cars, even paying interest on loans to get it, doing it with solar on your own home you gonna be in for longer (outside america, ppl dont move every few years) is a no brainer, even if it might not be making money on day one.

 

[cvaldes]

Ok so this will be my final say on this (hopefully): It is a legit question. Why would you consider not just knowing the answer illiteracy? It's not bizarre at all. We have roads and electricity for basically every house, why aren't those houses partly self powered at this point? I haven't read all the posts either of course, but the question makes sense today.

There's a concept called due diligence. Nothing in the OP's original post indicated any attempt at doing this. It just takes maybe a visit of one or two sites run by companies that do solar installations to have 85% of the concepts explained.

We have a term for this. FAQ. Frequently Asked Questions.

But if you look at the original question there was no effort made to even look for a FAQ. There are people who regularly demonstrate this level of laziness. That requires other people having to play human search engine to transcribe the same stuff that has been written thousands of times before in places that are pretty obvious.

Worse, this is discussion is now 10 pages long. The OP could have gotten a concise primer of solar installation from people who do this stuff for a living.

Hell, if you needed advice on how to carve a chicken, does it make any sense to randomly ask a bunch of strangers? Or would it make more sense to look for instructions (in a classic cookbook) or find a video from a butcher/chef?

I think curiosity is very, very important. But just asking whatever randomly pops into your head to a bunch of strangers isn't the most efficient way of getting true knowledge. It is a great way to get some misinformation which the inquirer might not be able to recognize.

Hell, we have people reading spec sheets and saying "DIY is easy" which is completely irresponsible for the type of activity we are discussing. That's completely nuts.

Many online discussions are going completely off the rails these days because the original question is so poor it just invites responses of similar quality. Insane.

It would make for fabulous entertainment except for the fact that some people believe the craziest shït. Worse are the people who have some badge or title next to their name which confers some sort of expertise. It doesn't.

Anyhow it was "fun" participating in this thread. It's time for me to bow out and let others direct the festivities here.

 

[dgianstefani]

Hell, we have people reading spec sheets and saying "DIY is easy" which is completely irresponsible for the type of activity we are discussing. That's completely nuts.

Many online discussions are going completely off the rails these days because the original question is so poor it just invites responses of similar quality. Insane.

It would make for fabulous entertainment except for the fact that some people believe the craziest shït. Worse are the people who have some badge or title next to their name which confers some sort of expertise. It doesn't.

Anyhow it was "fun" participating in this thread. It's time for me to bow out and let others direct the festivities here.

My man, this is the third solar system I've installed. So you can project about reading spec sheets if you want, but the system is currently up and running, and the other two have been for most of a decade.

Not everyone lives in over regulated Cali (or would want to).

Bottom line is this isn't difficult stuff, and there's a lot of ways the the companies who supply the parts or kits make it easier.

I'd say building a pc is harder.

What took the longest was actually mounting the panels. The wiring is idiot proof, only connects one way, and the charge controller is the same. Literally four poles, two for batteries, two for solar. Positive and negative. The rest of the voltage conversion etc is inside a sealed unit that you don't even need to mess with, besides picking the correct charge algorithm for the type of batteries and solar you have, and the voltage of the system you're hooking into.

I think people have a lot more trepidation on how complex this stuff is, and perhaps if they actually tried doing it would be surprised at how simple it is.

I also suggested simply having an electrician do the panel if you're unsure, or for insurance reasons and this is a <1 hr job.

Oh, the other hurdle is getting the power lines indoors from the panels, unless you have exterior charge controller/battery system like many houses, but there's simple waterproof joints you fix designed for that.

One thing is to ensure your house or vehicle actually has a good ground too, as many don't, since the contractors who built the place did a lazy job.

Regarding over regulated Cali, it's so bad you can't even buy assembled high powered gaming PCs because they're not efficient enough according to some bureaucrats -

View attachment 361637

Regarding high power draw appliances like whole house AC, with modern systems it's really no different installing solar and batteries with high or low capacity. The charge controller is a kind of server blade that sits on top of a modular stack of batteries that connect to each other through the equivalent of pogo pins in a vertical orientation. If you want x capacity you just stack x batteries, up to a limit, then you just get a second charge controller. It all links back into the same house wiring board, at the same voltages.

 

[R-T-B]

There's a concept called due diligence. Nothing in the OP's original post indicated any attempt at doing this. It just takes maybe a visit of one or two sites run by companies that do solar installations to have 85% of the concepts explained.

We have a term for this. FAQ. Frequently Asked Questions.

But if you look at the original question there was no effort made to even look for a FAQ. There are people who regularly demonstrate this level of laziness. That requires other people having to play human search engine to transcribe the same stuff that has been written thousands of times before in places that are pretty obvious.

Worse, this is discussion is now 10 pages long. The OP could have gotten a concise primer of solar installation from people who do this stuff for a living.

Hell, if you needed advice on how to carve a chicken, does it make any sense to randomly ask a bunch of strangers? Or would it make more sense to look for instructions (in a classic cookbook) or find a video from a butcher/chef?

I think curiosity is very, very important. But just asking whatever randomly pops into your head to a bunch of strangers isn't the most efficient way of getting true knowledge. It is a great way to get some misinformation which the inquirer might not be able to recognize.

Hell, we have people reading spec sheets and saying "DIY is easy" which is completely irresponsible for the type of activity we are discussing. That's completely nuts.

Many online discussions are going completely off the rails these days because the original question is so poor it just invites responses of similar quality. Insane.

It would make for fabulous entertainment except for the fact that some people believe the craziest shït. Worse are the people who have some badge or title next to their name which confers some sort of expertise. It doesn't.

Anyhow it was "fun" participating in this thread. It's time for me to bow out and let others direct the festivities here.

I mean I see what your getting at but it's not COMPLETELY random. At least he landed on a tech site.

Regarding over regulated Cali, it's so bad you can't even buy assembled high powered gaming PCs because they're not efficient enough according to some bureaucrats -

View attachment 361637

I don't want to come down on you too hard here because your point isn't really far from the mark, but you should know iheart.com is a pop radio station and I have no idea why you thought citing them for anything government related was a good idea.

 

[the54thvoid]

Regarding over regulated Cali, it's so bad you can't even buy assembled high powered gaming PCs because they're not efficient enough according to some bureaucrats -

View attachment 361637

The regulation is about idle and sleep mode power use. In use power draw isn't affected. It does seem this story got clicks for political reasons.

Here's what's happening: The California Energy Commission has implemented standards that strive to reduce the amount of energy computer systems use while idle or sleeping. In 2016, the state determined that computers and monitors account for 3 percent of residential energy and 7 percent of commercial energy use. That may not seem like a lot, but nevertheless the California has mandated new tech standards to reduce consumption. The other states involved have agreements to align themselves with California's standards.

These rules are being phased in slowly over five years. On July 1, the standards for desktop computers came into effect. These regulations limit how much energy a machine can use while idling or sleeping, not during overall use. The computers that Dell stopped shipping to these states aren't in compliance.

Other computers, however, are in compliance. Under these regulations, the amount of power consumption budget your PC is permitted is based on how expandable your system is. The more you are able to upgrade your computer—through graphics cards, additional storage or memory, etc.—the more energy you're allowed to consume.

But this is a solar topic and I've no idea why California PC regs were brought into this. Please, stay on topic.

 

[QyInvoLing]

It seems that the situation in China differs from which in UK mentioned in the main post. Most of the Chinese citizens don't live in "house" but apartments where installing a solar board is not possible; Meanwhile, I noticed that there's a big amount of solar boards installed in the desert of western china.

 

[dgianstefani]

It seems that the situation in China differs from which in UK mentioned in the main post. Most of the Chinese citizens don't live in "house" but apartments where installing a solar board is not possible; Meanwhile, I noticed that there's a big amount of solar boards installed in the desert of western china.

China seems to be investing in local battery and solar installations, which is one of the few things they do I actually think is rather positive. No long distance transmission of power means less waste, and local generation supports a resilient power grid in natural disaster events.

 

[Vayra86]

Ok so this will be my final say on this (hopefully): It is a legit question. Why would you consider not just knowing the answer illiteracy? It's not bizarre at all. We have roads and electricity for basically every house, why aren't those houses partly self powered at this point? I haven't read all the posts either of course, but the question makes sense today.

It is a legit question... we have experience in the Netherlands with this issue. The main issue being: you're NOT self-powering houses with solar. With solar, you are creating an immense amount of energy production at sun peak hours, and this energy is offloaded to the grid. That energy isn't powering houses. And when the sun isn't shining, that solar energy you are NOT getting, isn't powering houses either.

So if you want solar on every roof to 'self-power' houses, you need to also have a solution for the autumn/winter/dark days of the year, something in the shape of having such an immense amount of battery capacity, that the solar you generate on sunny hours, is saved to power houses in dark hours. That's a lot of batteries. It's being worked on, but again, NOT to power houses with solar. There is literally nobody in the field seriously thinking that's feasible. In an isolated case/house with a lot of tweaking, you can get close. But you'll never be 100% and its never cost effective. Energy is grid based for a good reason: there is strength in its collective approach. We just need finer tools to adjust what goes through it at any given point in time. Big part of that is also legislation and contracts that need changing, and the change must be fair in such a way that it motivates everyone to play their part the right way. This is also international of nature: we cooperate in a big way with the countries around us, UK, Germany, Belgium when it comes to grid management. We depend on each other.

What you see as a result is the emergence of dynamic grid management, where factories get paid to turn on their (insert major power usage device) in sun peak hours to balance out the grid. Households don't have that luxury and they never will. Another development is charging your car with solar power dynamically, and consequently using your car battery as a battery for the home, on your driveway.