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Mantle API presentation by AMD, DICE and Oxide - AMD Summit 2013

Discussion in 'Games' started by RuskiSnajper, Nov 14, 2013.

  1. the54thvoid

    the54thvoid

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    Voice of reason required again. I use an Nvidia card (as do 3 or 4 other of the 5 regular guys I play BF4 with). It isn't going to be a game changer for me or them, is it? Am I going to abandon my gfx card (which is plenty fast for me now) to join AMD? No, of course not (though I am still waiting on a R290X Lightning to surface ;)). There is no doubt whatsoever Mantle will be excellent for the owners of GCN cards but because of it's specificity - it cannot be a game changer unless the majority co-opt into it.
    It doesn't matter the performance increase it brings because it is not going to bring it to the majority of gamers. Again it's another 'buy in' development. For this special super dooper thing to work - you need to own a GCN card. It's tha same reason G-Sync will be doomed to be niche - it requires extra investment AND potentially a gfx card purchase. How many 290(X) owners will buy a G-sync monitor and a new Kepler gfx card? Probably less than the small amount that will swap to AMD from Nvidia for Mantle.

    I like the idea of Mantle but it cannot be implemented to be a game changing development in a market that is so very fractured. Mantle absolutely requires more than AMD for it to work. As long as Microsoft want to maintain DX11.x and Nvidia have such a large share of discrete cards, Mantle won't be a game changer. It is not ignorant (nor worse, to be a Hater) to say what I am saying. I AM saying Mantle should be superb for the games it is coded with and the cards that can play it but you really need to appreciate the market clout Microsoft and Nvidia have in the industry. If Mantle proves a threat, rest assured Nvidia will do something about it (they are after all vicious corporate bastards :mad:).

    FTR, I think AMD and Nvidia should talk about it at the coding level. I think as folk have suggested, once it is matured it should be handed over to the Khronos(?) group to oversee in an open, non proprietary way. I just don't see a company like Nvidia (that everyone loves to hate on a business level) will let Mantle roll over their perceived superior 'performance' in GPU's. All Nvidia have to do is make more investment in AAA games (AC3 & 4 and Starcraft(?), I think are good examples) which cripple AMD hardware.

    Mantle is good, yes, no doubts, very good for GCN. But it does not have a very straight forward or easy future. It can only truly be a game changer if Nvidia (and Microsoft) let it. To be fair, it is in AMD's favour to approach Nvidia and propose something to make it work out. If Nvidia are given enough tech knowledge to work with Mantle then they can help out with the development costs for Mantle coding in games. I read that it costs an extra 10% to code for it in development? That's a lot for AMD to spend on more and more games. If Nvidia were co-opted into it, they could then share that 'sponsorship' cost in games. That way Nvidia get the tools for free and pay for the game development directly and AMD reduce Mantle coding costs on their side. Very naive but so is much of the Mantle discussion.
     
  2. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

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    I'm gonna GLIDE over to a new thread for now. In a month or so Ill come back and check things out.
     
  3. HTC

    HTC

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    I agree.

    Personally, they should try and make it do exactly what the DX and OpenGL versions do so that we can see the difference with and without Mantle and only then aim for better graphics or doing something else that's not possible with current APIs.

    When they get Mantle working the difference should be noticeably visible and this will make this API the future but, even then, only when nVidia adopts it will it really take off. It doesn't matter how good it turns out to be: without wide adoption, it's future is doomed.
     
  4. HD64G

    HD64G

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    "Voice of reason required again" you said. Do you mean not to repeat what the post above contains without needing to? So, you wrote all this just to repeat basicly with extensive analysis just what I already said: Speed and scale of implementation is to be seen. Not Mantle's productivity.

    Where is your crusial point of argue with this?

    And yes, it is game changer, because it makes things better in games using less resources and allowing developers to use them otherwise and in more exciting features.. How quickly are we going to use it and how much or quickly per game doesn't make the prospect of Mantle less exciting or the meaning of it less important for gamers and devs.
     
  5. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

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    Its vaporware until its adopted by everyone. It could print money and still fail if it isn't adopted by the ENTIRE industry. PhysX is awesome too but is dying a slow death. Why? Because no one wants to pay for it.
     
  6. theoneandonlymrk

    theoneandonlymrk

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    they are not the same though are they, dev's have to pay to use physx(likely per feature i gather from the physx games ive tried(them all)) whereas mantle is not licensed, and no one and certainly not you has called physx a failure as it has realistically bumped Nvidia's coffers as well as creating the gpgpu world.
    plus matnle is different again because it is'nt soley concerned with a single aspect of games and apps like physx(just for physics) ,instead its the whole Api and rendering engine that the tech is aimed at.

    Killer app's are what decide what will or wont work as a technical exorcise,, and that i think we all can agree on is what's going to decide mantle's fate,
    though i dont think the entire industry needs to switch to it for it to be a success, because two years from now for eg in an Amd dreamy future they might well be able to sell OEM built cheap home systems that play games on par with consoles where'as intel wont be able to compete on that footing and nvidia's scarcely even in this game.
    and if customer A can get 60fps Cod bashing going on for 500 notes with Amd or 700 notes with an intel/nvidia system who is going to get those sales, enthusiasts dont count towards that statement either as its the 98% of regular buyer's im talking about.
     
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  7. erocker

    erocker Super Moderator Staff Member

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    To me... It doesn't exist for another couple weeks until they show it at CES.
    I agree. For now it is vaporware.

    PhysX analogy doesn't really work as no one will have to pay AMD to use mantle... They just need to pay their driver teams to get it working.
     
  8. HD64G

    HD64G

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    Mantle's big diffirences to PhysX.

    1) As erocker said, game devs paid nVidia to use it.
    2) PhysX need much power from GPU (a pricy one in other words) or a secondary one to handle just physx. Mantle needs any 77X0 or above GPU to use it making CPU power less important. Even Kaveri APUs will utilize it no matter the model and the price.
    3) While PhysX was a close protocol, Mantle isn't. It just works perfectly for CGN. If nVidia dedicate people to utilise it it will work.
    4) Mantle's career begins by Frostbyte and Crytek engines, the best game engine of our gen. So, popularity and spreading to game devs is already guaranteed. Only game devs that are very low in personnel, time or funded from the "green" team might not be interested at the moment.

    So, why not all of us be a little more patient? We don't have to lose anything after all. It is a win-win occassion this with Mantle.
     
  9. phanbuey

    phanbuey

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    its a cool API, and a cool idea... I don't think it will be adopted widely, but I hope I'm wrong. Glide had quake, unreal, and a bunch of engines still didn't help.
     
  10. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

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    I already mentioned GLIDE as did a few other people. It doesn't fit the narrative of OMG MANTEL WILL SAVE PC GAMING! So we ignore such things.

    As I said "Meats not meat till its in the pan."
     
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  11. RuskiSnajper

    RuskiSnajper

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    Everyone with the Glide Card pulls out the negative side of it.
     
  12. crazyeyesreaper

    crazyeyesreaper Chief Broken Rig

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    And yet lets face it nothing using Mantle has released anything that was coming has been delayed. Even then looking at Steam hardware survey as a cross section only 31.35% are AMD gpus of that 31.35% only 5.44% are GCN ready If we extrapolate the data and include 290 and 290x along with APUs there is maybe 7% of the Steams users can utilize GCN.

    so only 22% if I did the math right of AMD's market share is capable of mantle. of which only around 5% can actually utilize it in a meaningful way.

    Mantle right now is a bust its a gimmick it has the ability to be adopted utilized and improved going forward. Much like how DX had growing pains. Regardless it won't be the market changing amazing API that becomes a sensation at the drop of a hat. It will be years before Mantle hits its stride. If it survives the growing pains awesome. if not oh well. Regardless hardware will continue to move forward. As it stands though from what I remember Mantle required Double Floating point precision. When looking at the Kepler lineup only the GeForce Titan offers that ability. So currently the only Nvidia gpu that has the ability support Mantle is Titan. Maxwell may in fact change that but guess we will see. Regardless Mantle is still a no show with one demo. Sadly that demo does not show an appreciable comparison to DX or Open GL. As such I agree with erocker its vaporware. We know its in the works it might eventually get here but its not here we can't use it.

    Right now AMD's Mantle API has LESS appeal than Nvidia's PhysX. Mantle has the ability to penetrate up to 7% of the market currently. PhysX in a hardware sense as around 25-35% of the market is capable of utilizing it on the GPU. Granted AMD's Mantle is free vs PhysX costing money. The point remains. Until Nvidia can utilize the API Mantle will remain a second fiddle feature. Games will still be made with Direct X in mind first Mantle a distant second. Hell if Open GL catches on with Steam OS then Mantle will take a third seat.

    Mantle does not open up new markets. Steam OS does. Mantle doesn't support Linux currently. Overall AMD has a long way to go with their API.
     
  13. theoneandonlymrk

    theoneandonlymrk

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    A lot of that be opinion

    in fact 90% of that is opinion but your chatting absolutes agian.

    you must be in the know eh, no of course your not, have you tried steam-ing OS(doubtfull), i have and i have also tried physx so i can easily have an opinion on them as could you but mantle, well we can have an opinion and can discuss it but dont spout shit like you know it all as fact it's just annoying(<your point per haps) and in truth you dont know how mantle will roll or its adoption or use, speculate fine but dont get all fact'y with vague ass indirect facts and opinion.
     
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  14. crazyeyesreaper

    crazyeyesreaper Chief Broken Rig

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    No reason for you to be a complete dick! But then when it comes to anything GPU related on TPU it always resorts to this kind of behavior. It doesn't take a genius to realize GCN is all that is supported right now and its market share is minimal. And I do in fact know a bit more about API support than the average jackass having attended college for a Bachelors degree in Computer Animation and Game Design. Fact is Mantle has amazing potential. But everyone in here acts like it will immediately breathe new life into games offering instant performance boosts etc. Thats not how things will play out. Direct X is pretty much FORCED on developers and it took 5 years to move away from DX9 with DX10 being a failure and DX11 finally gaining traction. Yet somehow with decades of API introductions and failures. Of hardware launches and software updates. People still seem to expect miracles.

    Once Mantle gains support from the Nvidia and can be ported to Linux it can truly thrive. It opens the door to new possibilities. Being stuck with GCN only at this time on a broken AAA game and on Windows only limits its ability to take hold. And considering a huge portion of Mantle is based on AMD's Stream technology which they already abandoned once. Well It takes more than slides a bit of marketing and a single Demo no one else has access to to win me over. As a Tech Demo is not a game lol.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014
  15. theoneandonlymrk

    theoneandonlymrk

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    Not everyone is expecting miracles, im certainly not after trying steam OS with 20 games and no sound but hey ,thats no reason to be spouting mega neg is it ,hence im not on here bemoaning steam OS ,despite being able to prove that point, I will keep trying it as its beta now anyway and deserves fair chance to impress ,as does mantle.

    Your the one going over the top, In the neg direction.

    what the fecks wrong with optimism anyway ,you dont NEED to piss on others dreams even if they are a bit diluded
     
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  16. crazyeyesreaper

    crazyeyesreaper Chief Broken Rig

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    How am I being negative. I am being realistic.

    fact Steam hardware survey is a useful way to analzye GPU and CPU adoption
    Fact AMD hardware that supports Mantle is around 7% of the market as a whole.
    Fact of that 7% a good deal of it are APUs which even with better CPU performance are still to weak on the GPU to be meaningful for another few years.
    Fact Nvidia still dominates AMD in GPU market share. 50% to 30%

    I am not bemoaning Mantle. I actually Applaud AMD for being brave enough to pursue it. However the fact is long term success depends on getting more HARDWARE support. if Nvidia and AMD are 80% of the PC market in terms of Steam users. and of that 80% only 7% can use Mantle thats not good for adoption.

    Mantle needs a greater degree of Industry adoption. If that happens it will be a massive success. I hope it does happen as Direct X is truly a mess. Open GL while viable is also stagnant just copying what Direct X does but with a bit more freedom. Mantle being able to interface with GPUs at a lower level is much needed. But again being based on a failed technology that AMD couldn't gain traction with in a market that is dominated by a Rival. This isnt red vs green. The simple point here is most people won't know what mantle is how it helps or why its important. I mean hell most people around where I live barely even know AMD is a viable alternative. It takes more than a fancy marketing campaign and a few salivating fans to make this work. I hope Mantle succeeds. An open API is a great idea, but considering the failure that is Khronos and their Open GL stewardship along with the Industry still sticking to defacto market leaders and proprietary APIs. It will take more than a few developers and promises to get widespread adoption of Mantle.

    As for Steam OS I agree its a mess right now. Then again Valve straight up ADMITS its a mess and basically said only Linux gurus should mess with it. At least they are honest about it before they released it.
     
  17. theoneandonlymrk

    theoneandonlymrk

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    afaik imho Mantle is one point on a pyramid your simply looking in an erelivant hardware direction is all(largely opinion), nvidia's adoption of mantel is also erelivant imho, mantle as an Api could eventually bridge Pcs - consoles - Iot - set top boxes - handhelds - dishwashers.

    An api though aimed at games does not have to isolate itself just to that , and as Amd have eluded to imho a few other Gpu manufaturers will try to get mantel running on their chips just not intel or nvidia atm
    they plan to make, many an Soc in the future, and they might all or a large amount be mantel capable in principle any bit helps and its gimick lovein pc tweakers that DO want to try some new fangled whatsit thats faster or better like physx , I set the steam box up with specific hardware for windows gameing with full correct physx after all to keep giving it a chance to impress too, same with steam os which i still have no sound on, games run well though ;)

    I respect your not daft btw , realistic possibly,,, but the market is flexible and time will tell what happens with this mantle vapour malarky
     
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  18. crazyeyesreaper

    crazyeyesreaper Chief Broken Rig

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    And thats exactly my point ^ "I respect your not daft btw , realistic possibly,,, but the market is flexible and time will tell what happens with this mantle vapour malarky" But in the mean time why hype it up to be the greatest thing ever when theres nothing to actually back it up? A single demo no one else has full access to is nice but it doesnt really inspire confidence think of it like Nvidia's head demo that showed skin pores sub surface scattering of light etc it looked REALLY pretty but it wasnt for another 2-3 years after that that games started pushing that and even so they have not hit that same level yet.

    I have no doubt in my mind that Mantle is a fantastic API.
    I have no doubt that its beneficial in many ways

    But as we all know just because its beneficial doesnt mean it gets adopted in the PC industry lol. Intel compiler comes to mind it no longer purposefully hamstrings AMD cpu performance but it doesnt have optimizations for AMD or VIA etc either.

    I hope Mantle succeeds I just don't see it being viable until the big three support it. AMD / Intel / Nvidia when all three support it PCs / Tablets / Smartphones / Future consoles will see a much more fluid development process. Currently though its just empty promises with lots of Hype.

    All we have to do is look back at AMD hype to realize why blindly hailing this as the greatest thing since sliced bread is a bad idea.
    Hype its benefits to much and fails to meet expectations = people cry foul
    Hype it up and it never gains traction = people get pissy

    All i have to do is look back at HD2900 series 6970 stock cooler issues R9 290x cooler and performance issues Bulldozers failure to deliver

    Hell the fact AMD's newest APUs still only have the performance on a pure CPU level as the Athlon x2 6000 + thats right on a per core basis the A4 series CPUs on the desktop are only on par with the ancient Athlon X2 chips lol. The GPU is of course far better than anything from the Era but you get my point low end hardware has a long ways to go Mantle isnt a savior for that. It just means you could pair a 7870 to an A4 and it wont suck as bad lol.

    Hype is a dangerous thing and at this point Mantle is saturated with it. I am not saying it cant or wont be great but people need to check themselves before they ride the Hype train over the proverbial cliff is all :toast:

    Mantle is not going to be a Day one Game one fix for these issues it takes time and support. The sooner AMD gets hardware vendors on board namely Nvidia / Intel = the faster Mantle can be adopted. With faster adoption comes added benefits, greater market penetration and consumers get to enjoy what it offers sooner as well. No one is gonna drop their GTX 780 or 780 Ti etc to grab a 290x just for Mantle in a buggy BF4. Its unlikely they will do so any time soon especially if they are an average consumer that keeps there PC for a few years. As such time will tell but with that said people should be clamoring for Nvidia and Intel to support it. Rather than bitching on how awesome or lackluster it will be.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2014
  19. theoneandonlymrk

    theoneandonlymrk

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    we dissagree go figur
     
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  20. MxPhenom 216

    MxPhenom 216 Corsair Fanboy

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    There will be no Mantle.

    [​IMG]
     
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  21. KingPing

    KingPing

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    What about the devs, until everybody has a Mantle capable card (many people still don't have a DX11 capable card) developing for Mantle will increase the cost and effort from the studios, specially small ones, 10% is pretty big for a small dev. They will have to develop for at least DX and Mantle, IMO it's a better bet to start developing for OpenGL and Linux, Steam OS.
     
  22. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    people are being so ridiculous.


    3D glass support gets added into games, and its got a helluva lot less market share than AMD does for their GPU's.

    same goes for EAX, 5.1 sound and many other technologies. (oh no directX 9 cards outnumber directX11 cards, better stick with 9)
    oh no its not fucking nvidia, well stop crying. its got a LOT larger userbase than many other features that get succesfully implemented into games.
     
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  23. RuskiSnajper

    RuskiSnajper

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    Some people are looking at perception of others (public, industry ..) and forming their own opinion with and based on their existing perception of the information at hand.

    It's a public percpetion that makes Physx currently more of a "hot feature". It's not even the same thing so why does it even get mentioned as a comparision? That is an invalid comparison, the 2 things are not of same type.

    But then people state facts which are only valid right now in this moment, doesn't make any sense since when the reality of mantle get's shown to an extent it breaks the public perception

    Some people like myself just understand and did a lot of research so just being closer to that reality that already is there, nothing will change in basics of mantle, just perception will change of living people, but ofcourse later they will say "omg mantle looks great now", the point is I know that already, I won't be surprised. And it doesn't look great now, it's your perception that has changed because of the new info introduced, it was great all the time. That's just clearing out this common context mismatch that happens many times in these kind of discussion (generally speaking, for all the web)

    But people seem to talk and discuss about how they feel currently in this moment, with the given information, some of that being a perception of the information, and then they obviously have to pull out the "time will tell" card, ofcourse they say that because they don't really have the capacity to have a educated prediction, but that's not all, this is also a form of perception-based negative statement that somehow the fate is still to be decided, like it's something totally unknown, but just because the current viewer's perception is such, doesn't mean the reality will change, that is an opinion-based discussion which I think it's totally irrelevant and I usually don't discuss it, because I do objective analysis. The data shows this thing is a semi-revolution, and while the details are uncertain and in those cases time will tell how fast it gets adopted and how much it gets adopted, but that's not really the goal of mantle, many people speak about irrelevant things mantle is not trying to achieve, ofcourse it's good to have it used by all GPU vendors and as many developers, but this is a consumer-type of perception based "success".

    The problem is, many people up their own standards for when to call it a success or failure based on their personal opinion or in other words the shaky perception of the information that formed the opinion.
    That usually ends up cases where people say it's a failute just because the thing was not used on their platform or one of their favourite franchises, these kind of discussions have zero credibility and should be dismissed.


    It's a mathematical certainty that mantle will be a success. It is however a perception of the public that will make up their own mind, largely based on their own expecations which mantle probably wasn't set out to do or designed for. First of all, mantle is not a replacement. Many people keep saying how "time will tell" if mantle makes it on Nvidia and Linux and all the rest, it doesn't have to, all the people talking about market share, it's all irrelevant, if mantle uses

    If Mantle is not used as much, it doesn't make it a failure. It only makes the industry a failure to use it. The thing if used will work and it will make what it claims to do, to the ease of development, low level, application control etc.

    So people will try to paint something a failure, but while it only was a "failure" of the industry to use it, and that "failure to use it" for example might have come from the industry it self having a shaky perception of the thing that formed their opinion which lead to not adopting it.

    Mantle is primairly designed for AAA developers , if all the top 20 AAA developers use Mantle, it is a success in both areas. Mantle does not require to dominate, it's not designed for mainstream and casuals, butthurt consumers and fanboys of those games will whine anyways.


    This is the same way how Glide is being treated, while it lasted it was great, and that thing actually lasted for years, and then it died, but why it died, it didn't had more to do with how it was percieved by the industry and how the industry didn't want to adapt, the industry was more interested in standardization which is oviously a choice and not a abolute thing, standardization is a CHOICE and not a "correct" way or a "better" way necessairly, it's all a set of tradeoffs in the big picture, but ofcourse when people debate they use their opinion-based consumer viewpoint which always ends up with standardization being "correct" way and everything else a "failure" which is ofcourse a totally subjective based on the how system works (includingly lifestyle, etc and ofcourse base on their limitation impsed by the fiat monetary system), there are so many other invalid points the Glide people make that I can't even phantom to explain, I basically did as the above explanation applies to how they think when using the Glide card to prove their perception-based points. Some of those points are the difference in time, that was 15 years ago, now it's totally different and developers are more experienced, more evolved, etc


    Oh also, that "time will tell" card, with the "fate to be decided" ... you would notice I didn't reference the point of "adoptability" (popularity) because I actually learned from typing that, so what I want to add to that when I written the "fate to be decided" is actually the adoptability that is what I explained is just one of the subjective and practical points the people seek to judge it upon and pronounce either a failure or success. Yes, that's all invalid, mantle is not designed to replace industry standards, and it's just some people's joy to debate everything around the point of popularity. (adoptability might not be the correct term, i mean popularity throughout the post)

    Also want to point out, that I'm not focusing on the "adoptability" discussion, in this case I mean adoptability (how costly it is for them to support, how viable, worth it or not) because that's all truly up in the air, that all depends on developer and their goals and their needs, it's pointless to debate how popular will it be, some developer might use mantle just for ease of development and not so much for consumer benefits, for example, it's all time will tell, in this case, so I don't debate stuff I cannot predict, because there's not enoug info to know this on a big scale. And ofcourse, the decision of each developer is based also on their PERCEPTION of mantle, so if they happen to , there's no way for me to know that so that's why it's



    And speaking of this research, it's all mathematical and can be simply explained in this statement, with experience and understanding you can caluclate the equation and get a close approximation of the result, the values in the quation are information, the equation design is the understanding of how things work, there is also the accuracy of the information put into the equation (perception), now there can be many cases, and as you can see you need to basically know all those factors and variables to get the one result, and some people may lack the proper equation design, some may lack some values, etc, you can see there is more chance to be wrong than right.
    Some people are so inexperienced, and lacking of information that they absolutely require to see the end result before they can understand, those are the kind of very short posts you see usually as "i'll believe it when I see it"
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2014
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  24. phanbuey

    phanbuey

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    IMO it comes down to practicality, money, and the current momentum of where things are going. Mantle is not in that pathway. Most of the naysayers actually secretly wish that mantle is successful, but history tends to repeat itself and the odds are not that great - especially since many of the elements that made Glide (and hell - BetaMax and MiniDisk, etc...) fail are there: 1) new standard introduced by one company for a competitive advantage, 2) no incentives to join, 3) no benefit to any other stakeholders with the exception of said company and its consumers.

    Soo... I am a mass-market developer... why would I code for this, when i can spend the extra time optimizing the code for consoles and then just crap-porting it to PC since the hardware is 100X more powerful and can deal with it?
     
  25. RuskiSnajper

    RuskiSnajper

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    So that means mantle is not for you, why are you participating in this discussion then and painting mantle as not being successful because it doesn't do what you want ?

    It's not designed to do what you want, that makes everything you said invalid towards mantle it self.

    Yes your opinion is fine, but it's not mantle's fault, it's not a downside to mantle, it doesn't affect mantle, you and everyone else can have such opinions about mantle, but they are all irrelevant in the big picture.

    Using populairty and self-benefit to compare different types is all invalid, you guess I probably dismiss any sort of FPS vs RTS comparison, in stupid gaming sites where they have GOTY, it's all a joke, there should be GOTY for all genres separately, there is no one game better then all the rest.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2014

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