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Global Warming & Climate Change Discussion

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Fourstaff

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Solar is sad, unless you're in space. Doesn't matter if it comes from PV or thermal, the end numbers paint the same picture: you need a lot of surface area to generate a noteworthy amount of power.

Around here they'd either be covered in leaves, dust, or snow for half of the year. Their efficiency is also diminished for two reasons: 1) doesn't track the sun greatly diminishing their energy potential; 2) they have to use means of converting DC to AC that are far less efficient than that of solar thermal. I would also be doing a grave injustice if I failed to convey the fact you're talking about a lot of hidden construction and waste costs as well as the fact PV cells lose output capacity often before the initial investment is paid off. Or how about the fact that solar gets the largest subsidies in the world for energy in an effort to make it look like it costs less.

Even if they reached 70% efficiency at the panel (which will never happen anyway) and completely excluding the conversion deficits down the line to make it usable, you're still only working with a few hundred watts per meter squared at most. The only way to increase that is to put the panel in space and it still possesses very finite limitations.

The bottom line is it is a specialized source of energy for specialized uses. It isn't suitable for powering the masses. The proof is in the numbers: as of 2013, solar comprised of 0.23% of the total power produced in the USA. Geothermal is almost double that. Solar is a hype train with with a 1 cylinder moped engine. Yes, yes, the future! The future is fusion, not solar. Any dollar that is spent on solar that isn't going to fusion is a wasted dollar. Think Solyndra. Think those massive subsidies. Think Department of Energy hardly investing anything in fusion. It's backwards thinking just like the moratorium on fission was. Shooting ourselves in the foot once apparently wasn't enough. :(

Actually, I think solar makes sense for some situations. Apple (well known to be money minded) is investing solar. Still very niche at this point, but if price falls by another magnitude things will get pretty serious. After all, DC is good for long distance transmissions, and surprise, surprise! Solar produces DC.

Speaking of efficiency, I think newer ones are pretty good. At least, good enough for Morocco to actually build significant solar infrastructure (in a desert, no less).

May I remind you that fusion is still 50 years from us, the same position it has been since 1950s :roll:. Fission is a good friend of solar energy currently (when the sun is not shining), at least until we finally get fusion. As of now, commercial fusion is sci-fi, fission is

Finally, US is pretty bad at solar panel manufacturer, so bad that companies needed to beg the govt to prevent Chinese manufacturers to flood the market. The shame :rolleyes:.
 
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When talking solar energy, it seems most people only think of solar panels powered by the sun; however, windmills use a form of solar energy, wind, and can produce electricity as well. These windmill farms can be built on land or in the ocean.

As with any type of solution, there are consequences to windmill farms (e.g. time, research, funding, changes in landscape, bird mortality, and other wildlife fatalities).

With that being said, no "solution" to "global warming" is going to resolve everything.

http://energy.gov/eere/wind/how-do-wind-turbines-work
 
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Solar is sad, unless you're in space. Doesn't matter if it comes from PV or thermal, the end numbers paint the same picture: you need a lot of surface area to generate a noteworthy amount of power.


Actually, you can. Make a parabolic dish, stick a metal can on it with a pipe running two and fro with a pump and a simple steam turbine, generator, and conendsor set up and you got yourself a miniature solar thermal power plant. Not as practical as PV for that kind of application but it works.


Around here they'd either be covered in leaves, dust, or snow for half of the year. Their efficiency is also diminished for two reasons: 1) doesn't track the sun greatly diminishing their energy potential; 2) they have to use means of converting DC to AC that are far less efficient than that of solar thermal. I would also be doing a grave injustice if I failed to convey the fact you're talking about a lot of hidden construction and waste costs as well as the fact PV cells lose output capacity often before the initial investment is paid off. Or how about the fact that solar gets the largest subsidies in the world for energy in an effort to make it look like it costs less.

Even if they reached 70% efficiency at the panel (which will never happen anyway) and completely excluding the conversion deficits down the line to make it usable, you're still only working with a few hundred watts per meter squared at most. The only way to increase that is to put the panel in space and it still possesses very finite limitations.

The bottom line is it is a specialized source of energy for specialized uses. It isn't suitable for powering the masses. The proof is in the numbers: as of 2013, solar comprised of 0.23% of the total power produced in the USA. Geothermal is almost double that. Solar is a hype train with with a 1 cylinder moped engine. Yes, yes, the future! The future is fusion, not solar. Any dollar that is spent on solar that isn't going to fusion is a wasted dollar. Think Solyndra. Think those massive subsidies. Think Department of Energy hardly investing anything in fusion. It's backwards thinking just like the moratorium on fission was. Shooting ourselves in the foot once apparently wasn't enough. :(

I assume you know that no new thermal solar projects are being build because they aren't cost effective - http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesco...lar-energy-some-technologies-really-are-dumb/

As for what would work or not in your area, I'm not prepared to take your word for that.
 

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Actually, I think solar makes sense for some situations. Apple (well known to be money minded) is investing solar. Still very niche at this point, but if price falls by another magnitude things will get pretty serious. After all, DC is good for long distance transmissions, and surprise, surprise! Solar produces DC.
Because of the government. Read: massive tax writeoffs so they can pay less in taxes than they already do. Bad policy begets bad decisions which begets bad economic results. It's more of a PR stunt than something practical.

Speaking of efficiency, I think newer ones are pretty good. At least, good enough for Morocco to actually build significant solar infrastructure (in a desert, no less).
Because property values in deserts are literally dust cheap. Large solar facilities simply don't exist in high property value areas because the value of the property itself makes it a poor investment.

May I remind you that fusion is still 50 years from us, the same position it has been since 1950s :roll:. Fission is a good friend of solar energy currently (when the sun is not shining), at least until we finally get fusion. As of now, commercial fusion is sci-fi, fission is
Lockheed Martin is convinced they'll have a working prototype in 10 years with the aim of producing 100 MW of power in a package that fits in the back of a straight truck.

Finally, US is pretty bad at solar panel manufacturer, so bad that companies needed to beg the govt to prevent Chinese manufacturers to flood the market. The shame :rolleyes:.
Because China copied US designs without the massive investment costs those US companies took on. It's effectively patent infringement and you know how much China cares about those (hint: they don't). China is infamous for producing illegal knockoffs.

When talking solar energy, it seems most people only think of solar panels powered by the sun; however, windmills use a form of solar energy, wind, and can produce electricity as well. These windmill farms can be built on land or in the ocean.
Wind turbines have the same problem as solar: there's a finite density. Go below that and efficiency drops substantially for those in the wake of the first. I'm well aware that the sun powers way more than even mankind does through all sources but that's not the point of this discussion. The point is that solar/wind for mainstream power generation is simply not realistic.

I assume you know that no new thermal solar projects are being build because they aren't cost effective - http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesco...lar-energy-some-technologies-really-are-dumb/

As for what would work or not in your area, I'm not prepared to take your word for that.
Ivanpah is being constructed right now. It isn't quite finished yet. There's four reasons why they're rare:
1) Location. Specifically, it has to meet two criteria:
1a) Has to be close to a place where peak power is in great demand. Ivanpah, that is Los Angeles.
1b) Needs cheap access to a form of oil or natural gas to fill in the gaps (e.g. cloudy days). Ivanpah, that's natural gas.
2) The price of coal and natural gas have to be high to justify using the more expensive solar. Right now, both are stupid cheap.
3) Power companies don't even think about building without massive public funding. Ivanpah, that starts at $1.6 billion in a federal loan and who knows how much more California dished out.
4) Their power generation figures in theory rarely line up with reality. Ivanpah, is 40% below target.

Now, there is one interesting thing in that link and that is Warren Buffet buying a PV plant near Ivanpah covering about equal amount of space: Antelope Valley Solar Projects which weighs in at 579 MW. They don't give MWh/yr rating so I have to base it on the same rating for what Ivanpah should be producing: 3202 h/yr * 579 MW = 1,853,958 MWhr/y which is close to Incheon Tidal Power Station but still a far throw from the weakest of nuclear power plants.

Ivanpah's underperformance was blamed on cloudier than anticipated weather so Antelope Valley Solar Projects could easily be bitten by the same bug seeing how they are relatively close together.

And on top of that, you clearly didn't read the whole thing. This guy is like my brother from another mother:
James Conca said:
At this level of operation, over 20 Ivanpahs (at a cost of $50 billion) would be needed to produce the 9 billion kWhs that a single nuclear reactor produced last year. 40 Ivanpahs, costing about $85 billion and having triple the carbon footprint, are needed to replace the loss of the two reactors at California’s San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station.
California is infamous for bad policies like this.
 
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Ivanpah is being constructed right now. It isn't quite finished yet. There's four reasons why they're rare:
1) Location. Specifically, it has to meet two criteria:
1a) Has to be close to a place where peak power is in great demand. Ivanpah, that is Los Angeles.
1b) Needs cheap access to a form of oil or natural gas to fill in the gaps (e.g. cloudy days). Ivanpah, that's natural gas.
2) The price of coal and natural gas have to be high to justify using the more expensive solar. Right now, both are stupid cheap.
3) Power companies don't even think about building without massive public funding. Ivanpah, that starts at $1.6 billion in a federal loan and who knows how much more California dished out.
4) Their power generation figures in theory rarely line up with reality. Ivanpah, is 40% below target.
What I said was "no new thermal solar projects are being buil[t]." The fact that this project is still under construction is irrelevant. And as I keep saying, PV solar doesn't require thousands of acres of LAND to work. You haven't given any information to contradict that.
 

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I did a major edit more directly addressing the link.

As for your new post. Yes it does. PV may be higher efficiency but the numbers are still ridiculously short of everything else. The Forbes/Conca link even points that out clearly. Two nuclear reactors cost less than these projects, have an expected service life of 60 years versus 25 years, and produce power at a cost of 2 cents/kWh versus 9-12. Solar checks all of the "lose" boxes except they win the hippy/environut vote for all of the wrong reasons.

Solar that isn't concentrated in a location like these large scale plants create massive grid problems because it's nigh impossible to regulate.
 
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Solar is sad, unless you're in space. Doesn't matter if it comes from PV or thermal, the end numbers paint the same picture: you need a lot of surface area to generate a noteworthy amount of power.

The amount of surface area needed to supply the whole world's power needs with solar is quite feasible. Note that this is 100% of all energy consumed, not just our electric consumption, and it is projected to 2030:
http://landartgenerator.org/blagi/archives/127

There is no shortage of useless land in the places where solar works the best.

Solar panels are insanely cheap even now. You can buy a pallet of good quality US made panels for $1/W shipped to your door. PV is easily more cost effective now than solar thermal. PV in some locations is the cheapest method for producing electricity period.

All the talk about how renewables can't work is nonsense. The closer you get to 100% of supply the more difficult it becomes, but even that is feasible with current tech. Not current infrastructure however. We'd need a balanced variety of sources. We'd need a connected grid with smart metering to encourage conservation when the supply is limited (or projected to be) and encourage use and storage when it is abundant, and produce hydrogen and run other processes when there is excess.

It isn't done because we have more cost effective solutions given our current infrastructure and price of fossil fuels, but we will have no problems producing energy when that is no longer the case. That's even assuming that there are no important advances in technology.
 
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I did a major edit more directly addressing the link.

As for your new post. Yes it does. PV may be higher efficiency but the numbers are still ridiculously short of everything else. The Forbes/Conca link even points that out clearly. Two nuclear reactors cost less than these projects, have an expected service life of 60 years versus 25 years, and produce power at a cost of 2 cents/kWh versus 9-12. Solar checks all of the "lose" boxes except they win the hippy/environut vote for all of the wrong reasons.

Solar that isn't concentrated in a location like these large scale plants create massive grid problems because it's nigh impossible to regulate.
OK, so? You keep bringing up the issue of nuclear when you're the only person talking about it. How many times to I have to restate what the original point was?

edit: and there's no issue with PV solar. It feeds directly into the grid just like the PSEG project.
 

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The amount of surface area needed to supply the whole world's power needs with solar is quite feasible. Note that this is 100% of all energy consumed, not just our electric consumption, and it is projected to 2030:
http://landartgenerator.org/blagi/archives/127

There is no shortage of useless land in the places where solar works the best.

Solar panels are insanely cheap even now. You can buy a pallet of good quality US made panels for $1/W shipped to your door. PV is easily more cost effective now than solar thermal. PV in some locations is the cheapest method for producing electricity period.

All the talk about how renewables can't work is nonsense. The closer you get to 100% of supply the more difficult it becomes, but even that is feasible with current tech. Not current infrastructure however. We'd need a balanced variety of sources. We'd need a connected grid with smart metering to encourage conservation when the supply is limited (or projected to be) and encourage use and storage when it is abundant, and produce hydrogen and run other processes when there is excess.

It isn't done because we have more cost effective solutions given our current infrastructure and price of fossil fuels, but we will have no problems producing energy when that is no longer the case. That's even assuming that there are no important advances in technology.
Solar doesn't work without the grid and the grid really doesn't care for solar. In order to make the grid work with solar, it HAS to have a massive natural gas component because nuclear has a month long reaction period, coal has a 48 hour reaction period, and natural gas has a 4 minute reaction period. Solar IS natural gas. They are inseparable unless you're happy with daily brownouts and blackouts. I don't care how much you love solar, embrace the water vapor and CO2 that comes with it.

The entire US is broken into three grids: East, West, and Texas. The sun shining in California can cause problems two time zones over. This is why that New England power outage spread like fire causing multiple states to lose power. All of these individual reactors were seeing spikes and their safeties triped disconnecting them from the grid to save their own equipment. In order to prevent solar from doing the same thing, plants of all kinds in the area have to anticipate how much energy is going to come from solar and wind because they have no means to turn it off. In order to shield the grid from this chaos, they have to build double the capacity in natural gas to compensate for the variables natural gas and solar put on the system.

OK, so? You keep bringing up the issue of nuclear when you're the only person talking about it. How many times to I have to restate what the original point was?

edit: and there's no issue with PV solar. It feeds directly into the grid just like the PSEG project.
PV solar cells are dirty in the sense that require a lot of mining and industrial processes in order to make a pittance of energy. Conca covered that in his article.

PV is rife with "issues," you're simply choosing to ignore them. PSEG only works because of various fast-reacting gas power plants:
https://www.pseg.com/family/power/fossil/stations/index.jsp
1,209 MW here
756 MW there
376 MW here too
516 MW of you guessed it!
617 MW of figure it out yet?
...I don't think I need to go through the rest of them...

There's plenty there to cover every drop of that 180W they're getting from solar...10 fold.


Moreover, PV produces DC. It does not go "directly into the grid." It is converted to AC and the voltage is stepped up in order to match the line voltage. What is produced at nuclear/coal/gas plants skips the DC->AC part and goes straight to the transformers. This is a win for thermal solar and wind because both skip the DC->AC conversion as well.
 
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Solar doesn't work without the grid and the grid really doesn't care for solar. In order to make the grid work with solar, it HAS to have a massive natural gas component because nuclear has a month long reaction period, coal has a 48 hour reaction period, and natural gas has a 4 minute reaction period. Solar IS natural gas. They are inseparable unless you're happy with daily brownouts and blackouts. I don't care how much you love solar, embrace the water vapor and CO2 that comes with it.

The entire US is broken into three grids: East, West, and Texas. The sun shining in California can cause problems two time zones over. This is why that New England power outage spread like fire causing multiple states to lose power. All of these individual reactors were seeing spikes and their safeties triped disconnecting them from the grid to save their own equipment. In order to prevent solar from doing the same thing, plants of all kinds in the area have to anticipate how much energy is going to come from solar and wind because they have no means to turn it off. In order to shield the grid from this chaos, they have to build double the capacity in natural gas to compensate for the variables natural gas and solar put on the system.
I'm getting really tired of repeating myself so if you can't keep up you can have this conversation with yourself. Repeating the same issues I've already responded to and shown to be nothing but straw men isn't how you go about discussing something. You only do that when you're primary purpose is to perpetuate a discussion that you've already lost. So unless you can come up with something new, I'm outta here.
 

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Solar panels are insanely cheap even now. You can buy a pallet of good quality US made panels for $1/W shipped to your door. PV is easily more cost effective now than solar thermal. PV in some locations is the cheapest method for producing electricity period.
Important footnote: 1W only on clear sky days for a few hours. They don't compare, at all, with base power generation. This is why Fort Calhoun, a 42 year old power plant, beats the top five solar power facilities in the world combined. It doesn't go off 75% of the day. In 2009, in fact, it delivered 102% of what was expected from it. Moreover, it only cost $178 million back in 1973 (~$1 billion in today's dollars which is half the cost of Antelope Valley Solar Projects or Ivanpah). It cost less than $500 million to retrofit a few years ago, and is expected to operate with minimal interruption at least until 2033 (60 year service life).
 
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First serious scientific assessment of apocalyptic risks has been published

A team from Oxford University's Future of Humanity Institute and the Global Challenges Foundation has come up with the first serious scientific assessment of the apocalyptic risks we face.


A few of the scenarios arise from events that are out of our control - such as an asteroid hitting the Earth or the eruption of a supervolcano - but most emerge from human advancements.

Some of these developments, particularly those that are technological, have the potential to bring great benefits humans - but could also lead to our demise.

The report states: 'This is a scientific assessment about the possibility of oblivion, certainly, but even more it is a call for action based on the assumption that humanity is able to rise to challenges and turn them into opportunities.'

Global pandemic


An apocalyptic disease would be incurable (like Ebola), nearly always fatal (like rabies), extremely infectious (like the common cold) and have long incubation periods (like HIV).

If these devastating features were to occur in a single pathogen - influenza is already capable of combining features from different viruses - then the death toll would be extreme.

While significant resources have been dedicated to medical research and combating disease, modern transport and dense populations allow infections to spread quickly.




Deadly: An apocalyptic disease would be incurable (like Ebola), nearly always fatal (like rabies), extremely infectious (like the common cold) and have long incubation periods (like HIV), the report suggests

Supervolcano

The danger of a supervolcano - one capable of producing an eruption 1,000 times larger than normal - is the amount of aerosols and dust sent into the atmosphere.

This dust would absorb the Sun's rays and cause a global 'volcanic winter' - with effects similar to those of an asteroid impact or a nuclear war.

With technology currently available, there is little that could be done to prevent the damage.

Artificial intelligence

COOL PIC eh :peace:


Artificial intelligence:
Perhaps the most-discussed apocalyptic threat, this refers to the development of machines and software with human-level intelligence

Perhaps the most-discussed apocalyptic threat of the moment, this refers to the development of machines and software with human-level intelligence.

Such intelligences could not be easily controlled - either by the groups creating them, or some international body - and would probably be able to boost their own intelligence.

And if they decide humanity if of no value, they will be driven to build a world without humans.

But such artificial intelligence could easily combat most other risks in the report - making it a tool of great potential.

At the moment, no one knows whether there is a real risk of extreme machine intelligence and the researchers therefore give it a wide estimate of probability.

Extreme climate change

Scientists currently predict climate change caused by human activity - adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere - could mean average global temperatures increase by 4C.

But there is a risk that the warming could be much more extreme than the estimates suggest - and rise up to 6C.

The impact would be strongest in poorer countries, which would become uninhabitable, the research concludes, and lead to mass deaths, famines and mass migration.

Synthetic biology

Genetic engineering of super-organisms could be beneficial for humanity. But the release of a super-organism that targets humans, or a crucial part of the ecosystem, could end in disaster.

This could either be leaked accidentally - unintentionally from a laboratory - or deliberately - in instances of bio-warfare or bio-terrorism.

The impact could be worse than any natural pandemic.

Currently, attempts at regulation or self-regulation are in their infancy, and may not develop as fast as research does.

Asteroid impact

It might sound like the stuff of science-fiction - but a major asteroid impact could lead to the end of the world.

Large asteroid collisions – with objects 5 km or more in size – happen about once every 20 million years and would have an energy a 100,000 times greater than the largest bomb ever detonated.

A land impact would destroy an area the size of a nation like the Netherlands.

Should an asteroid hit, destruction would be caused by the clouds of dust shot into the atmosphere - affecting climate, food supplies and creating political instability - rather than the initial impact.




End of the world: Large asteroid collisions – with objects 5 km or more in size – happen about once every 20 million years and would have an energy a 100,000 times greater than the largest bomb ever detonated


Ecological collapse

A complete breakdown of the global ecosystem - often leading to mass extinction.

The likelihood of this depends on the extent to which humans are dependent on the ecosystem. Some lifestyles, for example, could be sustained if they were independent from the network.

Whether this can be achieved on a large scale in practice, especially during a collapse, will be a technological challenge, and whether it is something that is wanted, is an ethical question.

Nanotechnology

The release of a super-organism that targets humans, or a crucial part of the ecosystem, could end in disaster
Super-precise manufacturing on an atomic level could create materials with new properties - such as being highly resilient or 'smart' - that would be highly beneficial.

These manufacturing technologies could offer some of the world's biggest problems - including the depletion of natural resources, pollution, climate change, clean water and even poverty.

But it could also lead to the creation of large arsenals of conventional or more novel weapons made possible by atomically precise manufacturing.

Nuclear war

The fear of an apocalyptic nuclear war between Russia and the US gripped the global community for decades.

That threat may have reduced, but the potential for deliberate or accidental nuclear conflict has not been reduced, with some estimates putting the risk in the next century at around 10 per cent.

Whether the war has a larger impact would depend on whether it triggered a 'nuclear winter' - the creation of a cloud of smoke high in the atmosphere that would block the Sun's rays, plunging temperatures below freezing, and possibly destroy the ozone layer.


In order for this to happen, the bombs would have to start massive firebombs that could lift the dust into the atmosphere.

The effects would lead to the disintegration of the global food supply - making widespread starvation and the collapse of states likely.




Bad local governance

This refers to two main categories of government disasters - failing to solve major solvable problems and actively causing worse outcomes.

An example of the first would be failing to alleviate absolute poverty; of the second, constructing a global totalitarian state.

Changes in technology, politics and society could lead to the creation of better governments, but it could also give us those that are much worse.





Global system collapse

This broad term refers to an economic or societal collapse on a global scale that involves civil unrest and a breakdown of law and order that makes the continuation of human life impossible on Earth.

There are too many unknown factors to predict how likely this outcome would be but such effects have been observed in intricately-connected systems like ecology and finance.

The possibility of collapse is more acute when several networks depend on each other.

Unknown consequences

An umbrella category that represents all of the unknown unknowns - risks we have not thought about or appear extremely unlikely in isolation.

Together they recommend a significant apocalyptic threat.






Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ear-holocaust-SUPERVOLCANO.html#ixzz3RlNBir4O
 
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Important footnote: 1W only on clear sky days for a few hours. They don't compare, at all, with base power generation. This is why Fort Calhoun, a 42 year old power plant, beats the top five solar power facilities in the world combined. It doesn't go off 75% of the day. In 2009, in fact, it delivered 102% of what was expected from it. Moreover, it only cost $178 million back in 1973 (~$1 billion in today's dollars which is half the cost of Antelope Valley Solar Projects or Ivanpah). It cost less than $500 million to retrofit a few years ago, and is expected to operate with minimal interruption at least until 2033 (60 year service life).

You keep quoting random numbers that aren't relevant. What is relevant is the total cost and the method needed to supply the energy. Who ever suggested solar (alone) could be a base power source? We currently have zero storage in electric delivery, so of course you need power plants that can vary their output quickly. But what if you add say 1 day of storage (could be hydrogen produced during excess capacity), plus a few simple methods to encourage use during peak production times? Solar, wind, and other methods become very viable then.



"Utility-scale solar power can now be delivered in California at prices well below $100/MWh ($0.10/kWh) less than most other peak generators, even those running on low-cost natural gas. Lower solar module costs also stimulate demand from consumer markets where the cost of solar compares very favorably to retail electric rates."

Nice little discussion of the electric cost comparisons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source

CO2 emissions:

 
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So, after 10 and a half pages, does anyone on here have any desire to discuss the subject of the original post? I for one, find it quite interesting that if the conclusion is so certain that mankind is responsible for the warming, there would be no reason to alter the temperature data up from the real readings formerly recorded.

Thats the one thing everyone has avoided like the plague. Oh, and where is @qubit at, LOL? He started thread that is almost to the end of 11 pages and not participated. Very masterfully done!
 
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wrap that stick of butter in raw bacon.. mmm
I have been reading for years that fake butter is crap for you..
I get fb updates from http://www.mercola.com/ ya know reminds me to care
 
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Thanks for being consistent Mr.Science!

Science is consistent, it's the interpretation of data and results that differs o_O
 
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Science is consistent, it's the interpretation of data and results that differs o_O
Silence and its interpretations are synonymous. Sorry.
 
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Extreme climate change

Scientists currently predict climate change caused by human activity - adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere - could mean average global temperatures increase by 4C.

But there is a risk that the warming could be much more extreme than the estimates suggest - and rise up to 6C.

The impact would be strongest in poorer countries, which would become uninhabitable, the research concludes, and lead to mass deaths, famines and mass migration.
That really hasn't changed since the 1995 IPCC report.
 

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So, after 10 and a half pages, does anyone on here have any desire to discuss the subject of the original post? I for one, find it quite interesting that if the conclusion is so certain that mankind is responsible for the warming, there would be no reason to alter the temperature data up from the real readings formerly recorded.

Thats the one thing everyone has avoided like the plague. Oh, and where is @qubit at, LOL? He started thread that is almost to the end of 11 pages and not participated. Very masterfully done!

Clear and concise yet again rtwjunkie. Well done.
 
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Nice little discussion of the electric cost comparisons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source
Look at the DOE estimates table. Nuclear ($96.1/MWh) and natural gas ($64.4/MWh) is still cheaper than PV ($130/MWh).

Nuclear is less than Solar PV by a large margin (three fold?).

For the record: wind is the best form of solar energy available but it has copious amounts of flaws as well.

So, after 10 and a half pages, does anyone on here have any desire to discuss the subject of the original post? I for one, find it quite interesting that if the conclusion is so certain that mankind is responsible for the warming, there would be no reason to alter the temperature data up from the real readings formerly recorded.

Thats the one thing everyone has avoided like the plague. Oh, and where is @qubit at, LOL? He started thread that is almost to the end of 11 pages and not participated. Very masterfully done!
It doesn't really matter. We know CO2 is rising, we have ideas for why, we (everything in the atmosphere) are in this together so where it specifically comes from is rather moot. It poses a potential threat so we should be doing what we can to minimize our contributions (e.g. stop killing off forests and stop burning so many fossil fuels).

It's a lot like hitting your head on a wall. You don't need to know why you're doing it to know that you should stop doing it. :roll:
 
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So, after 10 and a half pages, does anyone on here have any desire to discuss the subject of the original post? I for one, find it quite interesting that if the conclusion is so certain that mankind is responsible for the warming, there would be no reason to alter the temperature data up from the real readings formerly recorded.
OK, I'll jump in and say the evidence isn't conclusive and those that want it to appear to be so are willing to alter existing data to fit in with their theories. Until empirical proof can be shown otherwise of natural increases and causation of climate change then they are chasing their tails. I wouldn't be willing to speculate on a cause, but I am willing to say climate change is real.
 
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The climate has changed since its inception....incredible as it seems.
 
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