Why are NAS drives more expensive than desktop drives?

[phill]

I also have a pair of 4 TB drives that need to be replaced. They are about 6 years old and nearly full. I want to replace with 8 TB drives.

FWIW, I run 4x 8TB SG exos drives in my QNAP and I push a lot of data through it. works really well.

Mine aren't quite so old but they are gradually getting full, so I wish to make space and make sure I have some breathing room as well. The other thing is I've a load of mkv's I wish to keep in one place and I'd rather than be on something that doesn't chew through 200w+ at idle if I'm honest My home built Synology takes about 35w idle, I think with all the kit in there, it's darn good. I do hope that I can upgrade the fans in there to allow more air flow to cover the higher sized drives. I don't believe they are getting that warm but still.. Prevention and all....

@Solaris17 Out of interest, what sort of raid do you use on the drives you have there? Raid 5 perhaps? Under a HBA card or a proper raid card? If you don't mind me asking of course

 

[Easy Rhino]

and I'd rather than be on something that doesn't chew through 200w+ at idle if I'm honest My home built Synology takes about 35w idle, I think with all the kit in there, it's darn good.

This is something I have also been thinking about. Can a NAS device really act as something like a plex media server? What about 4K videos that may not be native playback to specific devices and they require transcoding?

 

[windwhirl]

This is something I have also been thinking about. Can a NAS device really act as something like a plex media server? What about 4K videos that may not be native playback to specific devices and they require transcoding?

Apparently yes. Probably not a feature every NAS device has, but some do. This one in particular reviewed by TPU mentions that 4K transcoding will be rather terrible performance-wise, though.

Synology DS920+ 4-bay NAS Review - Good but Pricey

The Synology DS920+ is a solid NAS server with lots of features and options for users who can pay its high asking price. Upgrades over the older DS918+ are not significant, though. Besides a stronger SoC and faster RAM, the rest of the hardware is about the same. HDMI and 2.5 Gbit Ethernet ports...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[Solaris17]

@Solaris17 Out of interest, what sort of raid do you use on the drives you have there? Raid 5 perhaps? Under a HBA card or a proper raid card? If you don't mind me asking of course

To be totally honest with you, People play with freeNAS and stuff all the time, but I'm a bit of a purist. I like storage appliances, and I would never have them do things like run owncloud instances etc.

If im running RAID in a server I generally use lsi 9360-8i's but I'll usually run at least RAID 10, RAID 5 and 6 shouldn't exist the rebuild time isn't worth it.

So circling back, to answer your question. I run a QNAP TS-431XeU via 10GB fiber in RAID0.

I use 4x 8TB SG Exos drives. I primarily run iSCSI LUNs and mount them as drives on my machines. The NAS holds my game library (steam/origin/blizzard etc etc) and backups for my servers. I also dump some installers and ISOs on it.

The only thing the NAS does that isn't holding data, (because of RAID0) is I have the NAS linked to my backblaze B2 storage and have it setup to auto upload every Monday. B2 is configured to hold 3 copies.

All my machines backup to the NAS on Friday.

Before I got my last 2 8TB drives (Different batches, I wont pretend RAID0 isn't dangerous) I ran 16TB in RAID0 with a RAID0 1TB SSD cache array and hosted all my VMs on it. it worked out really well.

When I got my last 2 8TB drives I went NVMe on my servers because I need the IOPs for the VMs. VMs are where I run plex servers etc etc etc etc.

 

[rtwjunkie]

I don't buy WD anymore, because of this. Toshiba is my goto hard drive manufacturer right now.

I presume other posters around here would be interested in the information. So I'm just making sure others know of the misleading marketing that WD is operating under. Be careful, WD says "5400 class" but doesn't really mean "5400 RPM". They're not technically lying, but its highly misleading.

Otherwise, you'll be surprised by the +50% power and heat that comes from your WD "5400 class" drive (which actually eats up power and heat like a 7200 drive)

Except...none of my 9 reds eat up power. Nor do they run hot. So...nice try.

 

[R-T-B]

Except...none of my 9 reds eat up power. Nor do they run hot. So...nice try.

I mean, he could be right and I doubt it'd make that much diffference. I do agree documentation should be accurate, though.

 

[Jetster]

Truth is they are not more expensive. I bought 6- 6 Tb Toshiba drives 2years ago and X300 and N300 were the same price. And WD Red Nas drive are 5400. Always have been.WD now has a Red Pro that is 7200
But today the 6tB N300 is $169 and WD Red 6Tb is $147 Ans the Red Pro is 7200 and $194 The X300 is $159. The only real difference is the firmware.

 

[kayjay010101]

What? NO!!! That is the wrong conclusion! And where does it say the throughput is the same as 5400RPM? Answer: NOWHERE!

What I am reading is these drives spin at 7200RPM but consume the power and generate the heat of 5400RPM. How is that bad?

It's the opposite, Bill. They spin at 7200RPM, consume the power and generate the heat of a typical 7200RPM drive (I know, I have multiple of them and they all run hotter and make more noise than my other 5400RPM drives), but the troughtput is still that of a 5400RPM-class drive. Hence, it's rated at 5400RPM-class, not just 5400RPM.

 

[Vayra86]

Quite stunning to see the natural resistance against findings that shatter the idea people have in their heads. But its crystal clear these drives spin faster than what they're advertised as. You may like it, or you may not... but stop circling the hot pile.

I keep saying this... yes, you're usually being misled in a consumer world. I'm more amazed at the fact people are still so stuck with their ideas that this isn't possible... its time to turn that around. Just assume you're being screwed, and maybe you'll be lucky.

Its happening nearly monthly that some story comes out with actual proof that manufacturers have been lying to us, and yet...

 

[Jetster]

Quite stunning to see the natural resistance against findings that shatter the idea people have in their heads. But its crystal clear these drives spin faster than what they're advertised as. You may like it, or you may not... but stop circling the hot pile.

I keep saying this... yes, you're usually being misled in a consumer world. I'm more amazed at the fact people are still so stuck with their ideas that this isn't possible... its time to turn that around. Just assume you're being screwed, and maybe you'll be lucky.

Its happening nearly monthly that some story comes out with actual proof that manufacturers have been lying to us, and yet...

How about some proof if the variable speeds if its crystal clear . Maybe the Rep will chime in [U]SuperSoph_WD[/U]. Last time I talked with a hard drive tech drives are ether stop or go. WD likes to hide stuff, they did it with their green drives but learned from that one I think. Besides 54 to 72 is not really that noticeable. I've run both in a raid and they both work fine. The buffer made cause some fluctuation but not because of the drive speed

 

[Vayra86]

How about some proof if the variable speeds if its crystal clear . Maybe the Rep will chime in [U]SuperSoph_WD[/U]. Last time I talked with a hard drive tech drives are ether stop or go. WD likes to hide stuff, they did it with their green drives but learned from that one I think. Besides 54 to 72 is not really that noticeable. I've run both in a raid and they both work fine. The buffer made cause some fluctuation but not because of the drive speed

Variable isn't what's being said, the speed is not as advertised which in turn might not qualify for every use case. Not really noticeable, but a difference nonetheless.

 

[bug]

All these posts about 5400 vs 7200 and nobody mentioned the real difference: 7200 is generally worse in every way (noise, wear), but better in a crucial aspect - seek time.

 

[kayjay010101]

How about some proof if the variable speeds if its crystal clear . Maybe the Rep will chime in [U]SuperSoph_WD[/U]. Last time I talked with a hard drive tech drives are ether stop or go. WD likes to hide stuff, they did it with their green drives but learned from that one I think. Besides 54 to 72 is not really that noticeable. I've run both in a raid and they both work fine. The buffer made cause some fluctuation but not because of the drive speed

54 to 72 is noticeable when you cram 24 in them in a 4U chassis in terms of temperatures and excess vibration. The throughput I'm not fussed about, it's the excess power/heat, vibration and noise.

 

[Jetster]

All these posts about 5400 vs 7200 and nobody mentioned the real difference: 7200 is generally worse in every way (noise, wear), but better in a crucial aspect - seek time.

If that were true enterprise drives would not be 7200 and loud as shit. but I get where your going now

 

[bug]

If that were true enterprise drives would not be 7200 and loud as shit. but I get where your going now

I don't see the contradiction. Enterprise needs the faster seek time, so it puts up with everything else.
Hell, even for home use 7200 has been pretty standard for like 20 years now.

 

[Bill_Bright]

WD has mislabeled their drives and refuses to update their documentation.

You talk about me misinterpreting your "generic" dialect but you clearly don't get marketing hype! Where in any of the WD documentation does it specifically say the "rotation speed" of these drives is 5400RPM? No where!

"5400 RPM Class" does NOT mean it spins at 5400 RPM. Read your own spec sheet you posted in post #25 above. Look on the left side of the row YOU (that's not a generic "you"!) circled in red. Does it say, "Rotation speed"? NO!!! So are they being "mislabeled"? NO!!!

If these were being marketed (and labeled) as having "rotation speeds" of 7200RPM but only spun at 5400RPM, then for sure, this would be false advertising and heads should roll. But they are not being marketed that way.

Yet you (specifically) and other folks are getting all riled up over marketing hype. Marketing weenies lie for living. That's their jobs. They are almost as bad as shysters and politicians. Do I like it? No! Do I approve? No! Do I think consumer protection laws should be more strict? Absolutely! Can I do anything about it? Probably not except to vote for those who [are probably lying but] claim they think like I do. In the meantime, our jobs as consumers, and especially IT professionals, is to do our homework BEFORE buying so we know what we are getting, and getting in to.

I am NOT seeing any, not one, report of these drives being installed in real applications then overheating and causing stability or data loss problems because they run faster than true 5400RPM drives. I am also not seeing in any of your complaints where the 120Hz sonic characteristics of these drives are generating detrimental vibrations in RAID arrays or in any NAS devices. And why is that? Well, according the marketing hype, it is because WD has taken steps to ensure those vibrations (and heat) with 120Hz (as compared to 90Hz) don't cause problems - hence the 5400 RPM "Class" moniker.

 

[dragontamer5788]

"5400 RPM Class" does NOT mean it spins at 5400 RPM

I see that.

So where does WD document its RPM speeds, for people who do care about noise, power-usage, vibrations, and other factors?

Yet you (specifically) and other folks are getting all riled up over marketing hype

This doesn't look like a marketing page to me: https://documents.westerndigital.co...uct-brief-western-digital-wd-red-plus-hdd.pdf

This looks like product documentation. As a technical user, I expect documentation to have the information I care about. In this case: the documentation is misleading and incomplete. If the above is marketing, then where does WD keep their technical documentation? Why is it so hard to find the answer to a simple question?

Or... I could just buy Toshiba, or Seagate, who properly document their drives.

https://www.toshiba-storage.com/products/toshiba-internal-hard-drives-x300/?pdf

 

[Bill_Bright]

So where does WD document its RPM speeds, for people who do care about noise, power-usage, vibrations, and other factors?

Now you are making unjust assumptions again. You are assuming there is always a direct correlation between speed and the other factors AND that you can then use that speed value to compare those other factors with other drives. You can't. There are too many variables between drive - especially between drives from different makers. It would be nice if all you needed was the speed and then could assume that will tell you everything else about the drive. But it does not work that way.

Maybe if you look at case fans, it will be easier to see. Are all 25 x 140mm case fans the same? What if they all have 5 blades, use sleeve bearings and spin at the same RPM? Will they then have the same CFM and dBa rating? Nope. Because there are other factors involved, including blade pitch, blade width, blade thickness, the cutting/leading edge and other aerodynamic factors involved.

Fact is, you don't need to know the rotation speed of a hard drive. Rotation speed really is unimportant and immaterial. What is important is seek and data transfer times, noise, power consumption, capacities, interface, buffer, and perhaps vibrations.

Do you really need to know the RPM of your car engine when you go 60MPH in order to decide which car you will buy? Or do you need to know your gas mileage, noise, and smoothness/vibration?

This doesn't look like a marketing page to me:

LOL If you don't think marketing had a HUGE hand in drafting that, then you don't know how business works. I assure you, not only did marketing have a hand in drafting and approving that page, so did WD's legal department.

As a hardware type myself, if I had designed that drive, I would have included the actual rotation speeds in my data sheet. But once I hand it off to the marketing team, it is out of my hands.

Look, I am not disagreeing with you in terms of the information I would like to know. I am just saying you are making a mountain out of a molehill here. The actual rotation speed really is not important here.

 

[dragontamer5788]

What is important is seek and data transfer times, noise, power consumption, capacities, interface, buffer, and perhaps vibrations.

Okay. So lets start at the top.

Where are seek times documented in the WD manual?

Do you really need to know the RPM of your car engine when you go 60MPH in order to decide which car you will buy? Or do you need to know your gas mileage, noise, and smoothness/vibration?

I drive a manual transmission: the RPM torque-curves, and knowing where Turbo kicks in is quite useful. Yes. Such information helps me know when to downshift to 3rd gear at 60MPH, or 5th gear at 60 MPH, or whatever. I'm not a crazy racer or anything, but information is useful. Its easier to read "Turbo starts to kick in at 4000 RPM, increasing your torque" rather than trying to figure it out on a track. This is for a dinky 4-cylinder Ford Focus btw, I'm not driving anything special, but its useful information when driving a car. (In particular, 4000 RPM through 6300 RPM is the Ford Focus's maximum horsepower range).

I could figure this information out on my own. But when its documented, its a lot easier to discover the optimal driving performance of my car. So yes, I prefer to have these details documented to the maximum extent possible.

 

[Bill_Bright]

...in the WD manual?

Now you are complaining about the manual?

Okay. So lets start at the top.

No. Go complain to WD.

I'm done here.

 

[dragontamer5788]

I mean, he could be right and I doubt it'd make that much diffference. I do agree documentation should be accurate, though.

WD's SMR vs CMR crap was worse. (See: https://www.servethehome.com/wd-red-smr-vs-cmr-tested-avoid-red-smr/) But the 5400 RPM vs 7200 RPM gaffe is just more proof that WD marketers fail to properly document (or market) their drives.

WD is still selling SMR drives as "WD Reds", but they've at least created a new product line (Red Plus), which are guaranteed to be CMR. The issue is that WD still hasn't learned their mistake. There's nothing wrong with selling an SMR drive, or a 5400 RPM drive, or whatever. The most important thing is to label your products correctly, so that the builder has an idea of what they're buying. For some insane reason: WD doesn't think that clarity in their SKUs or product line matters.

 

[Easy Rhino]

I think I am going with the Seagate Exos. Good mix of reliability and speed and price. Thanks everyone.

 

[sneekypeet]

OP has requested closure.