Intel lying about their CPUs' TDP: who's not surprised?

[trickson]

Intel is like a shady used car salesman. They only tell you what you want to hear. Run a quick R20 test in the store and everything looks great. Head out to the mountains and try to go up a long grade and your shiny new car will be throttling along in the slow lane.

LOL.
How true but is it not advantageous for a Big Tech giant to stretching out the truth some? They are not lying just exaggerating.
I mean I have never heard a car salesman say this car is an absolute piece of crap you need it you should buy it. Though this is just what they are saying!

 

[freeagent]

Instead of Intel is lying about TDP, the real problem is that Intel CPUs cannot deliver their full rated performance indefinitely when they drop down to their rated TDP. Most consumers do not understand this. Their mobile CPUs do the same thing. Long term throttling so they do not exceed rated TDP.

That's a good point..

 

[newtekie1]

Instead of Intel is lying about TDP, the real problem is that Intel CPUs cannot deliver their full rated performance indefinitely when they drop down to their rated TDP. Most consumers do not understand this. Their mobile CPUs do the same thing. Long term throttling so they do not exceed rated TDP.

Isn't that the entire idea behind Turbo Boost though and always has been? As long as they can maintain their base clock, which Intel tells you, then that is what you are guaranteed. Anything beyond that is a bonus thanks to Turbo Boost. People have been complaining like you are since Turbo Boost came out, and I've even seen people call dropping below the boost clock thermal throttling even back in the early days when it was largely temperature based.

But the it's a boost, a boost is not meant to be a permanent performance increase. This is how boosting works. Are the boost clocks in graphics cards guaranteed? No. Are the boost clocks on AMD's CPUs guaranteed? No.

In my head a cpu should not go over the tdp
sure by 10-30w for turbo
but these new Intel cups are like double there tdp
that means if you dont have enough headroom in your psu POOF

There are a few things wrong with this statement. First, no one should be running a PSU on the limit like that. Second, if you have at least a half decent PSU, you won't have a poof, the unit will just shut down.

 

[unclewebb]

LOL

It would be fun to go to BestBuy or similar to see if the salesman gives you the whole truth about Intel TDP or just part of the truth. Start up Cinebench R23 and 5 minutes later you will be able to ask one of two questions.

1) Why is this 5 GHz CPU running so slow?

or

2) Why is this 125W CPU sucking 250W?

Kind of like a car company that advertises that their car can go 200 mph or get 50 mpg. Sure it can. Just not at the same time.

 

[trickson]

Isn't that the entire idea behind Turbo Boost though and always has been? As long as they can maintain their base clock, which Intel tells you, then that is what you are guaranteed. Anything beyond that is a bonus thanks to Turbo Boost. People have been complaining like you are since Turbo Boost came out, and I've even seen people call dropping below the boost clock thermal throttling even back in the early days when it was largely temperature based.

But the it's a boost, a boost is not meant to be a permanent performance increase. This is how boosting works. Are the boost clocks in graphics cards guaranteed? No. Are the boost clocks on AMD's CPUs guaranteed? No.

Well said thank you.
One thing I have always done is replace the stock cooling and try to OVERKILL on the HSF.
What it comes down to is cooling before you hit the Throttle point right?

 

[ThrashZone]

Here is a 10850K set to run at the same default speed as a 10900K. As R20 is just finishing, the CPU is still running at its full rated speed.

View attachment 186982

The Intel recommended default turbo power limits for the 10900K are 125W long term and 250W short term. The default turbo time limit is 56 seconds. R20 is a short test. A 10900K should have no problem completing R20 at full speed without a hint of throttling.

In a longer test like R23, then the turbo power limit will drop to 125W and it will be throttle city.

Instead of Intel is lying about TDP, the real problem is that Intel CPUs cannot deliver their full rated performance indefinitely when they drop down to their rated TDP. Most consumers do not understand this. Their mobile CPUs do the same thing. Long term throttling so they do not exceed rated TDP.

Intel is like a shady used car salesman. They only tell you what you want to hear. Run a quick R20 test in the store and everything looks great. Head out to the mountains and try to go up a long grade and your shiny new car will be throttling along in the slow lane.

Hi,
Still pretty bad to me and yes it does throttle on R20 too and why I asked on ROG forum why and got this
short story was activate MCE

 

[trickson]

It would be fun to go to BestBuy or similar to see if the salesman gives you the whole truth about Intel TDP or just part of the truth. Start up Cinebench R23 and 5 minutes later you will be able to ask one of two questions.

1) Why is this 5 GHz CPU running so slow?

or

2) Why is this 125W CPU sucking 250W?

Kind of like a car company that advertises that their car can go 200 mph or get 50 mpg. Sure it can. Just not at the same time.

LOL oh okay so I get it now.
It's like the time I went to buy a Chevy Cruse the speed"O" said 140MPH I was like Laughing in the salesman's face " I said there is NO way a 4 cylinder 1.2L could ever reach that speed unless it was supped up like mega!
Even then you wont have a car that lasts very long.
But like I said just beef the HSF and PSU to the max and stop worrying about the TDP or do I could careless at this point.

 

[freeagent]

I see the challenge with new Intel overclocks now.. getting the clocks is the easy part.. just like it always is.. but now its good luck trying to maintain them

Very clever..

 

[ThrashZone]

I see the challenge with new Intel overclocks now.. getting the clocks is the easy part.. just like it always is.. but now its good luck trying to maintain them

Very clever..

Hi,
Bingo Johnny we have a winner

 

[trickson]

I see the challenge with new Intel overclocks now.. getting the clocks is the easy part.. just like it always is.. but now its good luck trying to maintain them

Very clever..

Right.
I hate all the boost talk myself my CPU should run at it's rated 3.6GHz 24/7 as for the speed boost crap? Well it does shoot up to 4.4Ghz but it don't hold it not for any real time so It's more a "Look what I can do" More than this is what I will do!

 

[80-watt Hamster]

Kind of like a car company that advertises that their car can go 200 mph or get 50 mpg. Sure it can. Just not at the same time.

Not sure that illustrates the point you're trying to make, because a car like that would be AMAZING.

 

[londiste]

Also somebody explain how I should view that 125W TDP given that Max Turbo already hits royally over that number.

Max turbo is effectively overclocking. You are manually removing any normal limits.

 

[Bill_Bright]

@ThrashZone - Started watching that first GamersNexus video in your post #156 thinking I would give it 5 minutes before I got bored. Didn't happy. I watched the whole thing!
Nice find!

Very interesting how they determined it was the motherboard makers and their little tweaks - or cheats as they were called - to make their boards look better at the so called (but not) default settings published by Intel. Settings that resulted in inaccurate readings that, in turn, caused some to bash Intel when not deserved.

There was still plenty of fault to go around, with Intel too. But I think everyone who thinks Intel is the biggest fattest liar here aught to view it.

Max turbo is effectively overclocking.

Kinda sorta. If the CPU is designed to run at those levels for sustained periods of time, is it really "over" clocking? Or is the base clock the "under" clock speed before the marketing weenies got their mitts in the mix?

 

[cst1992]

Not sure that illustrates the point you're trying to make, because a car like that would be AMAZING.

Get a Tesla then.
The 2021 Model S gets 100+ MPGe at highway speed and the Plaid version has a 200 mph top speed.

 

[unclewebb]

it does throttle on R20 too

The 16:00 minute mark of the first video you posted shows that Cinebench R20 power consumption is 200W. That is well under the 250W short term turbo power limit that Intel recommends the 10900K should be set to. It does not take 56 seconds to complete R20 so a 10900K should have no problem completing this benchmark at its full rated speed with zero power limit throttling.

If the BIOS sets a 10900K to the default turbo values, 125W long, 250W, short and 56 seconds, Cinebench R20 will run at full speed for the entire test. Turbo boost does not last indefinitely. If you run Cinebench R20 multiple times back to back, the turbo boost reserve will be gone and the CPU will throttle based on the long term 125W limit.

As long as they can maintain their base clock

I know people have been saying this for a long time but I cannot remember seeing any documentation from Intel that guarantees anything. Since the 2nd Gen Core i, Intel has always recommended that the long term turbo power limit be set equal to the TDP. This is still recommended with the 10th Gen. When I first boot up after installing a new BIOS version, my motherboard stops and specifically asks if I want to set the CPU up to the default power limits or not. If I select Yes, it sets the power limits to the Intel default values.

caused some to bash Intel when not deserved

I agree. I bought an Intel CPU with a 125W TDP rating and when set to default specs, it runs at a maximum of 125W. I got exactly what was advertised. No complaints. I am even happier that Intel left the power limits unlocked so I can jack them up sky high, overclock this CPU and get more performance than what I paid for. Thanks Intel.

 

[londiste]

Kinda sorta. If the CPU is designed to run at those levels for sustained periods of time, is it really "over" clocking? Or is the base clock the "under" clock speed before the marketing weenies got their mitts in the mix?

This is the stupid grey area Intel has created but this is out of spec.
Max Turbo in that review means power limits lifted to maximum possible values, effectively removing power limits from equation altogether.

 

[Hachi_Roku256563]

There are a few things wrong with this statement. First, no one should be running a PSU on the limit like that. Second, if you have at least a half decent PSU, you won't have a poof, the unit will just shut down.

a psu shutting down is what i meant
i mean a psu may not be on a limit a 125wcpu
with almost 100+w free sounds plenty
and then the cpu turbos up and uses all of it
and the Poof
computer has shutdown

 

[Bill_Bright]

This is the stupid grey area Intel has created but this is out of spec.

I would not call it stupid. In fact, I would call it smart. These features (and make no mistake, AMD does it too) allow a processer to increase performance when needed and throttle back to conserve energy and reduce heat when the extra boost is not needed. I find that very cleaver indeed - and I'm not even a tree hugger!

 

[Selaya]

The stupid part of this, well fiasco is the fact that Intel isn't enforcing any of the guidelines they've set forth - they're basically like yeah whatever do whatever fuck you want, it's your problem when it comes to default turbo (limits) behavoir, which in turn led to GN Steve's rant video. Given the fact that Intel is seriously uncompetitive when their CPUs throttle down to base clock due to the node disadvantage yeah that behavior is absolutely like, shady at best.

 

[Arctucas]

"TurboBoost"?

Hmm... I just lock all cores at 50x, set manual Vcore, set VCore Mode to Adaptive, Default VDroop, disable C-states, enable HyperThreading, Windows Power Option to High Performance, ... Rock-n-Roll.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

TDP is measured on base clock, but most CPU turboing above base clock

GPU do this too

For intel yes AMD use Tdp that won't be exceeded in default config while loaded and boosting as high as it can, I think that's the point, Intel use nebula's bull###t. ..
@Arctucas with the stock cooler or a 125watt one?!.

 

[Bill_Bright]

The stupid part of this, well fiasco is the fact that Intel isn't enforcing any of the guidelines they've set forth

Come on. You gotta know if Intel were to even think of "forcing" guidelines on anybody, the Intel haters/AMD fanboys would be all over the "big brother" aspect of this just as, if not more, than the Microsoft haters are all over Microsoft whenever they push something on us - even when it is for the good of mast majority of users.

(Can't wait to see how the MS haters in this forum reply to that! )

 

[Aquinus]

I would not call it stupid. In fact, I would call it smart. These features (and make no mistake, AMD does it too) allow a processer to increase performance when needed and throttle back to conserve energy and reduce heat when the extra boost is not needed. I find that very cleaver indeed - and I'm not even a tree hugger!

This. Boost algorithms are designed to run at full performance given the constraints placed around them. In this respect, I think both Intel and AMD do a good job. I think people have to understand that CPUs are designed these days to take advantage of bursty load. It's one of the reasons why mobile devices these days feel a heck of a lot more responsive than they used to without it.

(Can't wait to see how the MS haters in this forum reply to that! )

I'm sure people have opinions about me using a Mac as a daily driver.

 

[newtekie1]

I know people have been saying this for a long time but I cannot remember seeing any documentation from Intel that guarantees anything. Since the 2nd Gen Core i, Intel has always recommended that the long term turbo power limit be set equal to the TDP. This is still recommended with the 10th Gen. When I first boot up after installing a new BIOS version, my motherboard stops and specifically asks if I want to set the CPU up to the default power limits or not. If I select Yes, it sets the power limits to the Intel default values.

The definition of the base clock Processor Base Frequency, in the tech world, is that is the clock speed you are guaranteed. Intel openly tells you want the base clock is. This isn't like when AMD released graphics cards and only told you the boost clock speed and everyone complained when the GPUs ran slower than that.

And this is right on Intel's website:

The processor base frequency is the operating point where TDP is defined.

So if people don't like their processors going beyond the TDP, turn of turbo boost and STFU about it because Intel is very clear on this subject.

 

[lexluthermiester]

The definition of the base clock, in the tech world, is that is the clock speed you are guaranteed.

Incorrect. The base clock is the clock from which the total operating clock is derived which is why CPU's have multipliers and have for 30+years. You are talking about Base Operating Frequency. If you are going to insult and attempt(poorly) to correct someone like @unclewebb, who knows a LOT more about tech than you do, try NOT to embarrass yourself in the process.