"Pump-out Effect" Is it real or is it nonsense? Let's discuss...

[mtcn77]

Which source is that? and anyhow surfactants are for the liquid solid interface. Ah, you mean the liquid-liquid interactions should not overwhelm the liquid-solid ones?

Tribology; worst course I ever took...

Yes.

There was a friction formula involving "1/50" can you find that? It was neat.

 

[lexluthermiester]

How to Avoid Pump-out and Achieve Efficient Heat Transfer - Electrolube
"it’s not all about thermal conductivity"

This seemed more like a company promotion piece than an actual testing document. No testing parameters, methodologies or results were described or declared. Not an article we can cite for any conclusion.

Reliability Testing Of Thermal Greases | Electronics Cooling (electronics-cooling.com)
"To simulate the pump-out effect of grease layers due to the dimensional changes in the package, an accelerated mechanical cycling test was adopted."

While this article goes into more detail, it does not exclusively examine the the effect as it is a more broad effort of looking at, as the article title states, "Reliability Testing Of Thermal Greases". Their own conclusion says it all on the subject:

These tests typically overestimate the reliability of a thermal grease layer, primarily since they do not simulate the pump-out mechanism accurately.

Again, not an article we can cite for a conclusion.

Advanced Thermal Management Materials, Jiang, Guosheng, Diao, Liyong, Kuang, Ken, eBook - Amazon.com

I'm familiar with that book, though it's been a few years. Don't remember them discussing anything related to "pump-out", though to be fair, I did just skim through it looking for other information. As the link you provided is just a purchase link, it's not something we can cite for conclusion.

I have also been looking for examples of research and testing on this subject and don't think anyone has done any extensive research on this effect that has been published.
This lack of information allows us to arrive at a set of preliminary conclusion possibilities.
1. No one has done extensive research because it is not an effect that can be reliably tested due to wide variations in both testing environments as well as TIM formulations.
2. No one has done research because is just not a big enough problem that requires the expenditure of time and resources to test.
3. No one has done research because no one knows about the effect due to the difficulty of testing and examining the effect.
4. No one has researched the matter due to some other unknown reason.
5. A combination of all or some of the above.

Call me old school I trust MX2 got 65G of this paste.

Stick with it! TIM's are not like the technologies they are applied to, they don't become obsolete over time. They continue to perform at the same level as when they were first released.

 

[Shrek]

Seems we have ascertained that pump-out is real.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Seems we have ascertained that pump-out is real.

Not really. We have confirmed that it's a term that has been used to a minor degree. However the cause/effect/process has not been properly researched. The cause is only theorized, it has not been proven.

Why is it some TIM's seem to react this way and not others of similar composition?

Why is it the effect is seen in one situation and not another very similar situation?

At the moment, there are WAY to many unknowns for people of any level of expertise to say with any measure of authority " This is what this is and it is not that. ".

 

[Mussels]

Some TIMs get runny when too hot.

Thats confirmed, thats the real issue

We as geeks, now need to find a thermal paste with good results that handles high temps well long term, since hardwares gotten hotter these days (good old 3090 VRAM at 110C and 5800x at 85C...)

 

[Space Lynx]

Some TIMs get runny when too hot.

Thats confirmed, thats the real issue

We as geeks, now need to find a thermal paste with good results that handles high temps well long term, since hardwares gotten hotter these days (good old 3090 VRAM at 110C and 5800x at 85C...)

what about some kind of electrical tape, cut very tiny so that it can fit where the cpu/heatsink merge, but a much stronger bond on the tape than normal electrical tape - and it wraps the entire way around. then we could all use Conductonaut safely (assuming heatsink is not aluminum but most aren't most have that copper bottom), have the best temps, and 0 worries.

thoughts?

 

[lexluthermiester]

Some TIMs get runny when too hot.

Thats confirmed, thats the real issue

Well yes, but that's just runny TIM getting to hot and leaking out of the area of application. That is not the same is what is claimed to be happening in "pump-out effect". With that it is theorized that the TIM will vacate the area of application due to differentials taking place under heat induced expansion and contraction cycles between the IC die and the baseplate of the heatsink. This is what needs research.

what about some kind of electrical tape, cut very tiny so that it can fit where the cpu/heatsink merge, but a much stronger bond on the tape than normal electrical tape - and it wraps the entire way around. then we could all use Conductonaut safely (assuming heatsink is not aluminum but most aren't most have that copper bottom), have the best temps, and 0 worries.

thoughts?

That is been tried before. The adhesive for the "tape" would need to be on both sides and made of compounds that are thermally conductive. As a general rule adhesives do not make good thermal conductors because they need to have certain characteristics not compatible with thermal conduction.

 

[Space Lynx]

That is been tried before. The adhesive for the "tape" would need to be on both sides and made of compounds that are thermally conductive. As a general rule adhesives do not make good thermal conductors because they need to have certain characteristics not compatible with thermal conduction.

why does it need to be sticky on both sides? i don't understand and why does it need to be conductive, I don't get that either

 

[lexluthermiester]

why does it need to be sticky on both sides?

Because you would need to have the pliable compound on both surfaces. Otherwise you would not get good filling effect of the imperfections of each surface.

i don't understand and why does it need to be conductive, I don't get that either

Thermally conductive. Otherwise it becomes a thermal insulator and that would not work well to transmit heat away from the source.

 

[Mussels]

you could just slap a layer of blutack around your CPU and enjoy it as it melts from the heat

 

[Caring1]

A heat resistant silicon sealant would do the job around the cpu and cold plate to prevent pump out.

 

[ThrashZone]

Some TIMs get runny when too hot.

Thats confirmed, thats the real issue

We as geeks, now need to find a thermal paste with good results that handles high temps well long term, since hardwares gotten hotter these days (good old 3090 VRAM at 110C and 5800x at 85C...)

Hi,
I can see the comparison with 5800x but 3090 vram/... you're in thermal pad land now and they don't get runny so comparison is not good for this topic.

 

[Mussels]

Hi,
I can see the comparison with 5800x but 3090 vram/... you're in thermal pad land now and they don't get runny so comparison is not good for this topic.

well yes it is, because it causes the thermal pads themselves to leak out their oil - it's a totally valid example of how modern hardware is hotter than previous gens and requires different cooling solutions

 

[ThrashZone]

well yes it is, because it causes the thermal pads themselves to leak out their oil - it's a totally valid example of how modern hardware is hotter than previous gens and requires different cooling solutions

Hi,
Only thermal pads I've had issues with are evga's they really do suck greesy double stick tape lol

 

[Falkentyne]

well yes it is, because it causes the thermal pads themselves to leak out their oil - it's a totally valid example of how modern hardware is hotter than previous gens and requires different cooling solutions

What's sort of funny is that the 3090 FE's backplate causes Gelid Extremes (only on the backplate side, NOT on the core side which is much cooler) to melt and turn into sticky gooey putty (can't remove the backplate at that point unless you pre-heat it to 100C with a miner and quickly power off and disassemble, or use a hairdryer on it), but it affects performance by a whopping 0C. There was no oil leaked anywhere, just melted pads. Then again, I guess that's why TG-PP10 thermal putty works so well. I don't believe that happens to the harder (higher shore) Gelid Ultimates, but I'm not taking off my backplate to check the Ultimates on it (Until my next repaste when I try SYY-157 on the core).

 

[Shrek]

How many devices come with solid thermal paste from the factory? (this would reduce the pump-out effect)

TPM350/550 Thermal Phase Change Material
TPM350 Thermal Phase Change Material - Electrolube
TPM550 Thermal Phase Change Material - Electrolube

One 'paints' this on and it then dries; however this does not stay solid.

Perhaps a thermal paste that dries and stays dry would be best.

 

[plastiscɧ]

now the weird german comes again and preaches; thermalpaste is not suitable for every device.


I use a completely different product and am still convinced that it is superior to any thermalpaste. just because it conducts 5 times more heat. it is a carbon fiber network. it is dry. reusable. costs less than premiumpaste and easy to handle. especially in FLAT objects...


what do you think I might have had for once nen good advice in stock??!

 

[Mussels]

now the weird german comes again and preaches; thermalpaste is not suitable for every device.


I use a completely different product and am still convinced that it is superior to any thermalpaste. just because it conducts 5 times more heat. it is a carbon fiber network. it is dry. reusable. costs less than premiumpaste and easy to handle. especially in FLAT objects...


what do you think I might have had for once nen good advice in stock??!

it doesnt conduct 5x more heat.

Have you read reviews on it, or just seen the marketing?

 

[plastiscɧ]

it doesnt conduct 5x more heat.

Have you read reviews on it, or just seen the marketing?

it depends on the paste u use. paste are between 12-18w/mK.

okay u are kinda sceptic. thats totally okay. i use it personally and my CPU temps are lower and its just comfortable

it doesnt conduct 5x more heat.

Have you read reviews on it, or just seen the marketing?

Frage - Wärmeleitpads - unabhängige Tests?

Hallo ihr Lieben, ausgelöst durch die neue Möglichkeit (für Endkunden) die GDDR6X-Temperaturen auszulesen habe ich mir ein paar Gedanken gemacht und will gerne mal die Pads auf meiner Karte tauschen - der allgemeine Verbesserungsdrang eben Bisher hatte ich mit den Thermal Grizzly Minus Pad 8...

www.igorslab.de

there are many of those sites. but german. IF U ARE INTERESTED i could make a summary for u in english ofc

Thermal Grizzly specifies a thermal conductivity value of 62.5 W/mk. This means that the thermal conductive pad, which consists of carbon fibers, achieves an almost identical value to liquid metal and is accordingly also electrically conductive. Therefore, the correct size should always be applied so that no neighboring electronic component is touched by it. The temperature range of the pad is specified as -250 to +150 °C Celsius. The thickness of the Carbonaut is 0.2 mm - so it is very thin.

Practice
Test system
Mainboard ASUS ROG STRIX X299-E GAMING II / MSI MEG X570 GODLIKE
Processor INTEL CORE i7-7800X / AMD RYZEN 7 3800X
Memory 4x CORSAIR DOMINATOR PLATINUM RGB - DDR4 - 3600 MHz - 8 GB
Processor cooler ASUS ROG RYUJIN 360
Graphics card KFA2 GeForce GTX 1650
M.2 SSD / SSD / External SSD CRUCIAL BX250 / CORSAIR MP600 / SAMSUNG PORTABLE T5

We tested the Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut thermal pad on an Intel CORE i7-7800X. The processor was decapitated and liquid metal was applied between the DIE and the heatspreader. We also test it on an AMD RYZEN 7 3800X which is mounted on a MSI MEG X570 GODLIKE.

Application/Application


A thermal paste can be applied in different ways and costs a bit of work to remove and can mess up one or the other component. This is different with the Carbonaut, which simply has to be applied to the processor or the component to be cooled. Thus, the replacement of a processor can't be made easier. Furthermore, the thermal pad can still be used after the exchange. However, you should be careful when removing it if the carbonaut sticks to the processor or cooler, otherwise the heat conduction pad can be damaged. In the picture, the thermal pad is on an AMD RYZEN 7 3800X. It looks similar with Skylake-X or Cascade-Lake-X processors.


Test with Intel i7-7800X


As we can see, the CPU temperature with the Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut on is 4 °Celsius higher at the maximum temperatures. But not only the maximum CPU temperature is higher but also the average CPU temperature. This also tells us how well the thermal pad conducts the heat. This looks quite different for the tested thermal pastes. The difference between the coolest and warmest CPU core is 9 °Celsius for the PHANTEKS PH-NDC and 8 °Celsius for the NOCTUA NT-H2. The difference for the Carbonaut is 6 °Celsius. We like the first result very much, as the temperatures are not that much higher and save us the hassle of cleaning the CPU and applying thermal paste.


Test with AMD RYZEN 7 3800X


We achieve a slightly better result in the test on the AMD RYZEN 7 3800X. Here, the difference between the Carbonaut and the PHANTEKS PH-NDC and NOCTUA NT-H2 is a maximum of 3.5 °Celsius. It is even only 3.2 °Celsius for the CCD temperature. We find the result impressive here as well.


Conclusion
The thermal grizzly Carbonaut is available from 9 €, but costs 12 € in the 38 x 38 mm variant we tested. This puts the price in a range where we can also buy good thermal pastes. However, we cannot compare the whole thing since thermal paste is consumed and we can use the Carbonaut more often. Thus, the price/performance is better in our opinion. Especially when we consider that the temperature difference is small, and this despite the fact that we compared the Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut with two of the current best thermal pastes on the market. Applying the Carbonaut is very easy and saves us from having to clean the CPU or GPU. Furthermore, we don't have to apply anything awkwardly. The latter can be a bit annoying depending on the thermal paste. What should also be considered is that the carbonaut never needs to be changed. With thermal paste, the contained liquid can escape and thus the heat transfer can become worse. Since the Carbonaut is a carbon fiber thermal pad, this is not a problem.
We award 9.0 out of 10 points. Furthermore, we can express our price/performance recommendation, since we can continue to use the Carbonaut heat conduction pad even after the processor has been replaced and thus only a one-time purchase is necessary.

Pros:
+ Good thermal conductivity for a thermal pad.
+ Good price
+ Very easy to apply
+ Can be used several times
+ Cheap, because reusable up to 50x (50x estimated)
+ Clean connection of heatspreader and CPU cooler
+ No residues after higher temperature
+ Does not attack surface structures

Cons:
- Electrically conductive

okayish so far? i u need more there are plenty sites of it

 

[Mussels]

That thermal conductivity only works sideways, not vertically.

They cool worse than thermal paste, you're falling for marketing based on the source material and not the results of the actual product...

Heres one - where they say it matches cheap thermal paste, and only for low heat situations

And a youtube review: Ah yes, 5x the thermal conductivity.... for stock paste performance. Hmm.

Then we have derbauer himself with a direct quote about how its worse:

Carbonaut is a good product, and a decent competitor to thermal paste, especially for long term, lower wattage uses. But it is not at all thermally superior.

 

[plastiscɧ]

That thermal conductivity only works sideways, not vertically.

They cool worse than thermal paste, you're falling for marketing based on the source material and not the results of the actual product...

Heres one - where they say it matches cheap thermal paste, and only for low heat situations

And a youtube review: Ah yes, 5x the thermal conductivity.... for stock paste performance. Hmm.

Then we have derbauer himself with a direct quote about how its worse:

Carbonaut is a good product, and a decent competitor to thermal paste, especially for long term, lower wattage uses. But it is not at all thermally superior.

Ty for this different point of view! appreciate it!

can we meet in the middle and say. it is not crappy and useful in special situations?





I have read the report and believe that it is truthful but not objective enough and one-sided moderated.

the material carbon fiber is one of the most versatile that we have available in our time. small excursion to WIKIPEDIA.

nevertheless

in the comparison of materials carbon is better than silicone oil

Carbon fibers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thermal paste - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mussels]

You're just ranting about the material, which has nothing to do with the actual product.
It's useful, but inferior to thermal paste for almost all applications except a small niche.

 

[plastiscɧ]

You're just ranting about the material, which has nothing to do with the actual product.
It's useful, but inferior to thermal paste for almost all applications except a small niche.

TRUE period

You're just ranting about the material, which has nothing to do with the actual product.
It's useful, but inferior to thermal paste for almost all applications except a small niche.

i was somehow always unsure about the use of thermalpaste, too much, too little, not moderate enough, squeezes out at the sides. dries out.
i think it's my personal type of comfort that chose this product.
so far i have not regretted. i am quite happy about this-

what I'm also glad that there are also people here in the portal who have a different point of view and rich experience that can be individually and in a pleasant atmosphere sometimes crossed without the other immediately loses his mind and face.
you NEVER stop learning.

 

[Shrek]

A thermal pad is thicker than grease and this counters the thermal conductivity.

However, it does solve the pump-out effect.

 

[plastiscɧ]

A thermal pad is thicker than grease and this counters the thermal conductivity.

However, it does solve the pump-out effect.

short and painless conclusion, mate