Waste Heat

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

From Sabine Hossenfelder's video description....

All power plants create waste heat that contributes to global warming. At the moment, the contribution is fairly small, but if mankind flourishes it is bound to increase and eventually it will become a problem. The only thing we an do about it is to build an air condition for the planet. Scientists have come up with some ideas how to address the problem that I hope you will find entertaining.

Well worth a watch as is most of Her work

 

[damric]

Blame Raja

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

putting aside everything, we Do all need a little heat each and every day.

I have looked out of a plane window, every light you see took many Person hours to make and keep lit, and they too all give off heat.

 

[ir_cow]

Good thing I won't be alive in 400 years

 

[Fangio1951]

I definitely won't be here in 400 yrs, but one would hope that we have the technology by then to visit and terraform other planets.

 

[dragontamer5788]

I definitely won't be here in 400 yrs, but one would hope that we have the technology by then to visit and terraform other planets.

If you have the ability to create a brand new Atmosphere on Mars, you can solve global warming on Earth by just Terraforming Earth instead.

Terraforming is going to be the exact same toolset as carbon capture. Manipulating our atmosphere to our liking.

 

[xrobwx71]

I definitely won't be here in 400 yrs, but one would hope that we have the technology by then to visit and terraform other planets.

Terraforming, is that what they call it?

 

[Norton]

Per the topic- in addition to greenhouse gas emissions contributing to global warming, waste heat from a variety of sources is also an issue... small now but still an issue that will inevitably gets worse.

Solutions?

 

[Steevo]

I watched it before this, it is clickbait. There are so many processes not accounted for, like as the temp rises more moisture will cause more clouds which are the overwhelming driving force in reflecting heat. https://climatekids.nasa.gov/cloud-climate/ Here is a kids version from Nasa. Factors like as the temp rises more infrared radiation will escape. Factors like as the temp rises the atmosphere will swell and we have data about what that causes short term but not long term.

 

[Space Lynx]

I watched it before this, it is clickbait. There are so many processes not accounted for, like as the temp rises more moisture will cause more clouds which are the overwhelming driving force in reflecting heat. https://climatekids.nasa.gov/cloud-climate/ Here is a kids version from Nasa. Factors like as the temp rises more infrared radiation will escape. Factors like as the temp rises the atmosphere will swell and we have data about what that causes short term but not long term.

I agree, there are so many variables, it is truly impossible to account for all of them.

Mother Nature always has a way of balancing herself, which I find to be quite beautiful personally.

 

[N/A]

Mother nature doesn't know what it's doing, it creates the food chain with crocodiles all the way down. And the balancing thing is false hopes, it could go out of control in raging storms like jupiter and lose the moon eventually.

In my city there is central heating using the waste heat and it doesn't work, too expensive. They can't even sell the waste at an acceptable price, so forget it. I live in 10-15C instead of paying this racket.

 

[lemonadesoda]

District Heating Systems can work. The Heat Distribution network in Basel, Switzerland works well in my own experience. Each house has a heat exchanger, taking off heat for the building and its apartments. To be successful, it does need to be local and high density, meaning the originating heat source and the end users need to be on a local network where distribution costs and losses are very low.

@N/A where is your (bad) DHS, why is it so expensive? One of the problems with DHS is that, depending on local legislation, is can become a small, local, monopoly doing EVERYTHING to make money, and not provide the most efficient service to customers. Oh, I do hate a monopoly, esp. local, tied, monopolies.

 

[Bones]

The vid is total BS like all the rest I've heard before, which to this day have all failed to become what was predicted.

 

[N/A]

Somehow she has the tendency to explore the topics on long termism. Waste is dumped all over the place. We have to become micromanagement freaks to only postpone the imminent.

District Heating Systems can work. The Heat Distribution network in Basel, Switzerland works well in my own experience.

@N/A where is your (bad) DHS, why is it so expensive? One of the problems with DHS

A beautifully designed system. My post communist country is centuries behind. Actually under the communist central heating was cheap as hell.

 

[dragontamer5788]

Per the topic- in addition to greenhouse gas emissions contributing to global warming, waste heat from a variety of sources is also an issue... small now but still an issue that will inevitably gets worse.

Solutions?

Unless you can invent a perpetual motion device, all devices you make will be wasteful (ie: not 100% efficient). And unless you can break the laws of thermodynamics, that "waste" will become heat.

Now there's a couple of solutions.

1. District heating -- Use the waste heat in a useful manner. For example, New York City's steam system distributes the waste-heat from power-plants in the winter to warm everybody's apartments. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system). As it turns out, you can use steam to create refrigerators / air conditioners too. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator)

2. Efficiency -- Anything that improves efficiency will reduce waste heat. Alas, everyone's already trying to make a "more efficient engine" (just for the cost savings alone), so no need for incentives here.

That's... about it. You either use the waste heat (so its not entirely useless), or you reduce the amount of waste heat generated. Otherwise, the laws of physics force waste heat to be part of every process. Furthermore, the 2nd law of thermodynamics says that entropy continues to increase, so each "use" of energy is irreversible. We cannot feed waste heat into a refrigerator (to create hot/cold) and then use that to effectively run a heat engine. The "quality" of the heat drops each step.

Waste heat today is difficult because the quality is so low (ie: ~160F or so). In part, because of #2 efficiency increases (each step of efficiency reduces the quality of the heat), making it harder to use the waste heat for other purposes.

----------

So its just a fact of life.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

I watched it before this, it is clickbait. There are so many processes not accounted for, like as the temp rises more moisture will cause more clouds which are the overwhelming driving force in reflecting heat. https://climatekids.nasa.gov/cloud-climate/ Here is a kids version from Nasa. Factors like as the temp rises more infrared radiation will escape. Factors like as the temp rises the atmosphere will swell and we have data about what that causes short term but not long term.

Clouds reflect heat in the day yet retain heat at night.
It's not clickbait but then science is often dramatic why because disparate departments theologize on other. Stuff to fit into their theory's they no little about, that was often proven statistically by a statistician who knows only the numbers not they're meaning.

A bit like your connecting of dots to fit your narrative.

I'm not saying I'm right your wrong.

I am saying you blinkered this into obscurity when in fact it's inescapably true, the only debate is the extent of any issue it might cause, When, and what if anything could be done.


You can't put more heat into a system without the system heating up.

 

[Space Lynx]

Clouds reflect heat in the day yet retain heat at night.
It's not clickbait but then science is often dramatic why because disparate departments theologize on other. Stuff to fit into their theory's they no little about, that was often proven statistically by a statistician who knows only the numbers not they're meaning.

A bit like your connecting of dots to fit your narrative.

I'm not saying I'm right your wrong.

I am saying you blinkered this into obscurity when in fact it's inescapably true, the only debate is the extent of any issue it might cause, When, and what if anything could be done.


You can't put more heat into a system without the system heating up.

if we just treated the planet better to begin with all would be well, even if it wasn't going to be unwell to begin with, it would continue to be well regardless.

when I lived in the UK I found it fascinating how quickly my brain adjusted to recycling in 3-4 different bins and also the compost bin. In America, my parents refuse to recycle for example, but once I lived that way for awhile, you get so used to it you don't even realize it. It is truly a shame people can't open their minds to simple and basic things like this. For me it wasn't a matter of climate or limited resources, it was a lifestyle change I had to adapt to, then the realization of like holy shit we waste so much in America... and there is no reason for it.

Quite frankly it doesn't matter what we do in the end, if we fuck up, mother nature will fuck us up even worse, and then balance will come to her long after we are gone - such is the beauty of physics

edit: I wish I understood the concept of entropy better, I think that would help me answer the last comment you made. I'm still unsure honestly.

 

[Steevo]

Clouds reflect heat in the day yet retain heat at night.
It's not clickbait but then science is often dramatic why because disparate departments theologize on other. Stuff to fit into their theory's they no little about, that was often proven statistically by a statistician who knows only the numbers not they're meaning.

A bit like your connecting of dots to fit your narrative.

I'm not saying I'm right your wrong.

I am saying you blinkered this into obscurity when in fact it's inescapably true, the only debate is the extent of any issue it might cause, When, and what if anything could be done.


You can't put more heat into a system without the system heating up.

Our earth air is warming (short term observation), the ground is cooling (long term observation), and the average is lowering historically speaking. How do I know?

Its not a molten blob anymore.
Data measuring atmospheric temperatures close to the ground for years
Changes in the climate

Another thought is all the carbon locked away in coal, wood, oil was all once possibly in the atmosphere and through absorption of heat in photosynthetic processes it was converted into carbohydrates/hydrocarbons. We are merely releasing that stored chemical energy.

The amount of heat we are releasing through burning fuel and merely existing isn't minuscule, but it is compared to the amount the sun is delivering and how many other processes that we know little about that balance the system out. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. https://edition.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/08/07/contrails.climate/index.html How much effect contrails have and the burning of thousands of gallons of fuel higher in the atmosphere and heating from compression...... but it seems the reflection of heat had a bigger effect then.... We don't know what effect we are having directly and are trying to figure out which one of the knobs we are turning to benefit us is going to be the one to kill us first and fastest, while blindfolded and guided by others. Any scientist ( Im subbed to her and watch and truly appreciate almost all of her content) who makes claims that this ONE BIG THING... I will press X to doubt until I hear it from multiple sources as confirmed.

 

[R-T-B]

Its not a molten blob anymore.

You do realize how irrelevant that phase is to what we are talking about, right?

 

[Steevo]

You do realize how irrelevant that phase is to what we are talking about, right?

I do, it was more of a point at how extreme a fact can be presented.

We know the air temperature is rising, but do we really know what effect its having on a specific storm at a specific time with all other variables accounted for? Are power plants to blame and will the move to nuclear base load VS the CO2 savings be enough with waste heat still being generated? Will solar and solar alone be the only viable option to prevent waste heat? I want to fund and pursue it, there is no reason we shouldn't be asking and researching all the options, but I don't want confirmation bias or any other bias to get in the way. We have heard way too many theories presented as fact about when we will all die in a catastrophe due to climate change especially when its presented to the masses.

 

[Lei]

Good thing I won't be alive in 400 years

I will backup your brain with neuralink and 3d print your body with DNA printer.
You can't get away with this. You're responsible.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

I do, it was more of a point at how extreme a fact can be presented.

We know the air temperature is rising, but do we really know what effect its having on a specific storm at a specific time with all other variables accounted for? Are power plants to blame and will the move to nuclear base load VS the CO2 savings be enough with waste heat still being generated? Will solar and solar alone be the only viable option to prevent waste heat? I want to fund and pursue it, there is no reason we shouldn't be asking and researching all the options, but I don't want confirmation bias or any other bias to get in the way. We have heard way too many theories presented as fact about when we will all die in a catastrophe due to climate change especially when its presented to the masses.

What I would say is I didn't watch that, then post it here thinking right this is a fact(though us putting out heat IS a fact) we're all going to die or the planet might dry out.
Just it is a fact it's effect is very hard to quantify but, , we do have earth observation satellite tech that is monitoring all the data we will require long term to come to some idea, as Sabine posited.

Is it absolutely right, I doubt it but it is a interesting idea some / many have Never considered that IMHO definitely requires consideration as a worlds people.

I don't actually put as much merit as some on human global warming, I don't doubt it is a thing just the quantification of the amount of blame verses other sources like solar cycles geological changes, and stellar factors.

For example a black hole recently pointed it's angry beam directly at us from millions of light years away and it is adding to that energy inputted to the earth.

 

[Kapone33]

Mother nature doesn't know what it's doing, it creates the food chain with crocodiles all the way down. And the balancing thing is false hopes, it could go out of control in raging storms like jupiter and lose the moon eventually.

In my city there is central heating using the waste heat and it doesn't work, too expensive. They can't even sell the waste at an acceptable price, so forget it. I live in 10-15C instead of paying this racket.

Um Earth has been around much longer than Humans. The only concern is will Humans survive the correction for the problem that we created. The only place you generally see electric cars are on commercials (not that that makes a difference).

It is our own hubris, that is the funny part of it. We are currently pumping a tremendous amount of water vapour into our upper atmosphere and Volcanoes that have been dormant for lifetimes are suddenly very active. Tornadoes, Hurricanes and just plain Storms are getting stronger and more destructive and I have seen the clouds change wind positons 3 times in 1 day where I live. It might trigger something like that monster that is in the middle of North America (Or the middle of the Caribbean Sea) and that would not be something that anyone on Earth would enjoy. It would though probably cover an entire continent with Volcanic Ash that would lead to some serious organic growth. If you ever visit Hawaii or Jamaica you know what I mean. Of course it could also mix with all that water vapour and create a world wide drought for decades too.

When we realize that there is absolutely nothing that can be done to stop it we understand why some of the richest individuals in the history of man are trying to create a colony on Mars. We are dealing with things that all of us are experiencing for the first time (including our parents and Grandparents) and can only hope that it doesn't get as bad as it could.

 

[Deleted member 185158]

Interesting topic.

The earth doesn't care what you people do.

Let my old buddy George explain it for you.

 

[Steevo]

Um Earth has been around much longer than Humans. The only concern is will Humans survive the correction for the problem that we created. The only place you generally see electric cars are on commercials (not that that makes a difference).

It is our own hubris, that is the funny part of it. We are currently pumping a tremendous amount of water vapour into our upper atmosphere and Volcanoes that have been dormant for lifetimes are suddenly very active. Tornadoes, Hurricanes and just plain Storms are getting stronger and more destructive and I have seen the clouds change wind positons 3 times in 1 day where I live. It might trigger something like that monster that is in the middle of North America (Or the middle of the Caribbean Sea) and that would not be something that anyone on Earth would enjoy. It would though probably cover an entire continent with Volcanic Ash that would lead to some serious organic growth. If you ever visit Hawaii or Jamaica you know what I mean. Of course it could also mix with all that water vapour and create a world wide drought for decades too.

When we realize that there is absolutely nothing that can be done to stop it we understand why some of the richest individuals in the history of man are trying to create a colony on Mars. We are dealing with things that all of us are experiencing for the first time (including our parents and Grandparents) and can only hope that it doesn't get as bad as it could.

Ya lost me at us being responsible for volcanoes and how terrible storms are when they have been terrible and killed millions of us, its just that we didn't have the internet or 24 hour news to pump fear into our brains. They are trying to go to Mars as proof that we can, its our exploration spirit, not that we are ruining our planet and they better run off to another one, they want to be famous and remembered, they want to do something no one else has done and will ever do again.