Can someone explain to me why an AIO cooler has evaporation issues, but a heatsink on a gpu or cpu does not?

[freeagent]

Before I moved to AM4 I thought RGB was dumb.. But I wanted a good board, but it had it.. then I wanted good ram, and it had it.. then I needed a new GPU, and it had it.. Sometimes it looks good.. sometimes I just turn it off.. but then my corner looks so dark and empty.. just like before

 

[oxrufiioxo]

I happen to think their base ones are the best looking units on the market, but then I factor in performance and practicality, so things like including a VRM fan in the pump head, and neatly tucking the power wires into the tubing matter to me. It's the unnecessary fashion show stuff like RGB I find off putting. It's like expecting your cooler to double as a unicorn for God's sake!

With things like RGB though, they're just responding to silly user requests, so I can't blame them for that.

I hate the way the head unit looks until they change that I won't be buying one.... Maybe I'm biased because mine has an LCD on it but still.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Just because you don’t understand how it can happen doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Gee whiz. Please don't pretend I said something I didn't. I never said I didn't understand how it can happen. In fact, I said in my first post above, "Permeation certainly exists. No denying that."

I had no leaks or wet spots anywhere.

I believe that. What I am saying is permeation (unless intentional, as it is in some applications) would be too slow for apparent leaks or wet spots to appear for the reason following,

the worry about permeation is because when coolant permeates the tubes, it then evaporates

Point being, it would evaporate before enough collected to the point you would see any leaks or wet spots.

I know for a fact that I am not the only one this has happened to.

I never said that either. What I am saying is if the AiO maker used hose materials that susceptible to permeation, there would be 1000s and 1000s of users complaining instead of just you and a small handful (relatively speaking) of others.

 

[sLowEnd]

Both AIOs and vapor chambers/heatpipes will eventually lose some of the liquid via permeation.

With regards to heatpipes, that's correct on a theoretical level, but in practical terms I don't think there's much to worry about. I have some heatpipe coolers nearing 20 years old that still work as they did out of the box.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

I hate the way the head unit looks until they change that I won't be buying one.... Maybe I'm biased because mine has an LCD on it but still.

Yeah, we are of completely different mindsets bro, because to me, those LCDs on the pump head are unnecessary, not really attractive, and might even ADD some heat and/or fail without warning, and they DEF cost more!. I've gone to the extreme of putting electrical tape over the red LEDs the front of my case came with just to keep my living room from looking like the red light district.

 

[Bill_Bright]

because to me, those LCDs on the pump head are unnecessary, not really attractive, and might even ADD some heat

My feelings too. They DO add some heat because they DO consume some additional power. But more importantly is they do absolutely nothing for performance. I don't want my cases to distract me. What is happening on my monitors is what's important to me.

 

[freeagent]

How much heat do you think those super efficient leds put out? 1w? 1.5w? They aren’t contacting the physical pump, they aren’t contacting the flow of water.. all of the lights in my case add less than 10w.. I know because I measured

 

[oxrufiioxo]

How much heat do you think those super efficient leds put out? 1w? 1.5w? They aren’t contacting the physical pump, they aren’t contacting the flow of water.. all of the lights in my case add less than 10w.. I know because I measured

Bruh that's the difference between 4.99 and 5.0ghz can't have that messing up dem overclocks.

 

[mechtech]

Yes, plastic is porous, metal is not.

Well...........some metals can actually be 'porous'

Think sintered bronze......deliberately made this way, or platinum/palladium & hydrogen, etc. etc.

Hydrogen seems to have an affinity to many metals, when welding (good quality) we explicity write low hydrogen electrodes due to possible hydrogen embrittlement of the metal.

As for 'gas' getting into the system, well there are joints at the hose ends, water does contain dissolved air, etc. I suppose if the facility used distilled/deionized water and cleaned the metal inside and out, and used teflon hoses inside and out, it would be significantly reduced.

I would imagine there is some gas voids deliberately due to mass manufacturing/costs, and probably by design for thermal expansion/contraction, as a gas is compressible. I mean think of a car engine, it's sealed system and should be no air, however there is an expansion tank for this very reason...........something AIO don't have...........so must require a certain volume of gas inside as an 'expansion' volume.

 

[freeagent]

Well...........some metals can actually be 'porous'

Yup, but that would be a bad idea for a heat sink

it's sealed system and should be no air, however there is an expansion tank for this very reason...........something AIO don't have...........so must require a certain volume of gas inside as an 'expansion' volume.

I’m not sure if it’s a gas, I doubt it. I think they just fill it part way and close it up. Maybe leave a few cc of space for expansion? Just guessing here I have no idea..

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Yup, but that would be a bad idea for a heat sink



I’m not sure if it’s a gas, I doubt it. I think they just fill it part way and close it up. Maybe leave a few cc of space for expansion? Just guessing here I have no idea..

From gamersnexus teardowns it seems about 90-95% is filled the rest is air. Why some aio can be louder when it comes to pump noise depending on mounting location.

 

[Space Lynx]

From gamersnexus teardowns it seems about 90-95% is filled the rest is air. Why some aio can be louder when it comes to pump noise depending on mounting location.

I am trying to figure out where to mount my new AIO right now, if you want to help.

I am trying to decide... should I use my 3x 120mm Antec Storm fans or stock fans for my MSI AIO in a NZXT H710 top intake?

well I got the NZXT H710 PC case in black/red theme about 4-5 months ago, its been sitting in the box since it arrived... I decided to put my 5800x3d build in it, I must say this case is a major upgrade from corsair 110q. the quality of the side panel has a "special polish" that just makes it...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[eidairaman1]

Yes, plastic is porous, metal is not.

Depends on the metal as their are grain boundries for corrosion to ensue when dissimilar metals are touching, add an electrolyte and oxygen.

Types of Corrosion:
Galvanic- dissimilar metals contact anode-cathode
Pitting-can be from galvanic or occur from electrolyte and oxygen on metal
Fretting-chaffing (look up smoking rivets)
Philiform-under paint
Intergranular-grain boundry corrosion
Exfoliation-worst form of corrosion- from intergranular- complete structure integrity failure.

In Aviation Corrosion is unacceptable as it can lead to cracks thus failure of parts, Even an imperfection detected by Non destructive inspection (Magnaflux, dye penetrant, eddy current, ultrasound, x ray) can cause cracks.

 

[Bill_Bright]

This thread seems to be going all over the place.

First, while related, there is a distinct difference between porosity and permeation.

And again, it is easy and inexpensive to make plastics non-porous and non-permeable. As noted above,

Remember, very caustic stuff like bleach, ammonia, even lye drain opener is stored for years and years in inexpensive plastic containers. Those liquids don't leak, evaporate, "eat" or permeate through the plastic. The casings of car batteries are made of plastic.

Look at our homes and the use of PVC plastic pipes. Why is it used? Because it is cheap to make, easy to work with and very safe and effective. Our clean water supply pipes are even under pressure - up to 80psi - many more times higher than in these coolers. If those water pipes were porous or permeable, they could not be used.

Drain/sewer pipes are commonly made of PVC too and while not under pressure, if they allowed that "waste" escape, it could be an environmental and health hazard to humans and wildlife.

On the other hand, some plastics are designed to allow significant and specific amounts of permeability. For example, IV (intravenous) lines contain plastic membranes specifically designed to allow the liquid medicine to pass through while blocking air bubbles.

In our grocery store, some plastic bags are designed to allow fresh produce to "breath" though the bags.

Permeation is at the molecular level where smaller individual atoms and molecules are maneuvering past larger molecules.

There are over 5 sextillion (5 x 10^21 or 5,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) atoms in a single drop of water. If you see or feel a drop of coolant you have a leak.

One thing we have not really discussed here is "time". And sadly, the OP did not mention how old this cooler in question is. And I also have been remiss for not factoring in time. My apologies for that.

As I said in my first reply in this thread, "permeation certainly exists". But I still have my doubts permeation is the big problem in CPU coolers as some believe. HOWEVER, with time being a factor, I can certainly see where a sealed, liquid cooling system could lose enough coolant due to permeation to affect performance. But with a "quality" cooler from a reputable maker, that would be years. How many years depends on too many variables to be specific. But, IMO, 5 - 6 years should be expected.

But then why do they fail at that point? Is it due to too much air in the system reducing the heat extraction capability to unacceptable levels? Or because too much air in the system prevents the lubricants in the coolant from properly lubricating the impellor motor? I'm leaning towards the latter.

Maybe it is time to go back to the days when I and many of the other old-timers here started experimenting with alternative cooling solutions - BEFORE there were AiO CLC systems. They weren't closed systems. They weren't even factory made systems. They were home-built with parts from fish aquarium/pet and hardware stores. That meant they could leak. Air could get in. Mold and other nasties could start growing in there. But it also meant we could bleed out the air and "top off" the coolant levels. Those were the days.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

I am trying to figure out where to mount my new AIO right now, if you want to help.

I am trying to decide... should I use my 3x 120mm Antec Storm fans or stock fans for my MSI AIO in a NZXT H710 top intake?

well I got the NZXT H710 PC case in black/red theme about 4-5 months ago, its been sitting in the box since it arrived... I decided to put my 5800x3d build in it, I must say this case is a major upgrade from corsair 110q. the quality of the side panel has a "special polish" that just makes it...

www.techpowerup.com

Anything but at front with tubes at top is fair game if you have the space. II's really a matter of where you have the space and what your preferences are. Obviously case design factors in, some have more room at the top, while other have more room at the front. Be mindful of tube length as well, especially if you end up wanting to go front with tubes at bottom in a case that has a lot of front to back depth.

How much heat do you think those super efficient leds put out? 1w? 1.5w? They aren’t contacting the physical pump, they aren’t contacting the flow of water.. all of the lights in my case add less than 10w.. I know because I measured

I never said they would add a lot of heat or directly affect the pump head cooling plate temp. It's mostly just that I find it an unnecessary cost that contributes zero to the actual cooling performance. I see it as mere bling that is either a cha ching way to brag about how low your system temps are running, or a lazy way to bench temps while gaming. In fact the latter makes little sense because very few people have their towers set up at eye level with the side panel window facing them. It would make more sense to offer a LCD panel that can be mounted anywhere and easily seen, but when you have tools like MSI Afterburner that can show temps onscreen while gaming, they're almost useless, especially ON the pump head.

I recently picked up the Arctic Liquid Freezer II 240 non-RGB so yes, they are still selling them.

For sure, Arctic has their manufacturing partner make batches at a time, they don't roll off some manufacturing line one by one as orders come in. So any absence of non-RGB units in the marketspace is simply a lull between batches. The non-RGB models are probably in lower demand these days so Arctic probably isn't pressed to order a new batch from their manufacturing partner.

One thing I did note was that lower-priced B stock units from the Arctic eBay store were out of stock. I ended up buying a brand new one on sale from Amazon which was competitively priced with what the B stock units normally go for. But I looked for B stock availability first.

If you get an extra year or two of usage and a better performing unit, it's probably worth spending an hour or two doing a little research (reading reviews, comparing prices, thinking about your usage case and value expectations).

Again, people do this will all purchases, not just consumer PC components. I might spend 5-10 seconds deciding between two bags of flour at the grocery store but the same thought process is essentially happening.

I definitely spend more time with real estate purchases.

Yeah I know Arctic makes them in batches, especially the less popular ones, which I would guess is part of the reason they can charge less for them.

Real estate though is another animal altogether, and I'm sure it's a LOT harder to consistently make money at it than a lot of the real estate gurus make it sound. LOTS of crooks and pitfalls to watch out for in that industry. I watch Shark Tank a lot, and Barbara Corcoran is one of my favorite sharks.. She knows a ton about real estate and you can tell by how red her eyes often are that she works hard at everything she does.

 

[Bill_Bright]

How much heat do you think those super efficient leds put out? 1w? 1.5w?

Interesting how you qualified your point by including "super efficient". Suffice it to say, LEDs as an entire category is lights are efficient

I never said they would add a lot of heat or directly affect the pump head cooling plate temp. It's mostly just that I find it an unnecessary cost that contributes zero to the actual cooling performance.

Nor do they contribute to computer performance or game play.

But it is not just the heat of the LEDs themselves. There is the power consumed and heat generated by the circuitry and controllers for those LEDs and the extra load on the PSU, which in turn creates more heat. Is it significant? Nah! But again, does it do anything for performance or game play? Nope.

I think most of us appreciate it when things "look" nice. I know I do. A nice custom paint job on a car, for example, looks nice and can be appreciated too - even though that paint job over a plain paint job does not increase performance or improve efficiency.

But there is something to be said for being practical too. A good paint job protects the car body from rust. RGB lighting serves no practical purpose at all.

To me, it is like Christmas lights. I very much enjoy them. But come January, they need to come down - or else they get old, quick.

 

[dgianstefani]

Interesting how you qualified your point by including "super efficient". Suffice it to say, LEDs as an entire category is lights are efficient


Nor do they contribute to computer performance or game play.

But it is not just the heat of the LEDs themselves. There is the power consumed and heat generated by the circuitry and controllers for those LEDs and the extra load on the PSU, which in turn creates more heat. Is it significant? Nah! But again, does it do anything for performance or game play? Nope.

I think most of us appreciate it when things "look" nice. I know I do. A nice custom paint job on a car, for example, looks nice and can be appreciated too - even though that paint job over a plain paint job does not increase performance or improve efficiency.

But there is something to be said for being practical too. A good paint job protects the car body from rust. RGB lighting serves no practical purpose at all.

To me, it is like Christmas lights. I very much enjoy them. But come January, they need to come down - or else they get old, quick.

To add to this, LED circuitry can and does cause interference. E.g. if you read some of pzogel's mouse reviews, you will note in some implementations tracking is adversely affected when RGB is enabled.

This isn't to say that some RGB implementations aren't problem free, but it's a bit of a minefield, especially when you consider the crappy software and extra connections often required. One of the reasons I like Razer is not just because their wireless and sensor technology is borderline flawless, but Synapse (despite the hate it gets) is actually pretty good. OpenRGB does the rest, as a portable, run once solution.

 

[LabRat 891]

Simple:
Even the best (currently common) polymer will act like a membrane.
Deltas in heat, pressure, moisture, and even ambient electrical fields will cause coolant migration.

Copper and aluminum are much less permeable, and their other 'properties' moderate the above-mentioned deltas.

Semi-tangential:
if you think coolant loss is a PITA, try containing Hydrogen! Many large electrical-generation turbines are both cooled and lubricated by a near-pure hydrogen atmosphere. In that field, even metal acts like a permeable membrane.

 

[A Computer Guy]

But there is something to be said for being practical too. A good paint job protects the car body from rust. RGB lighting serves no practical purpose at all.

It is useful if you keep you pc on at night and use the rgb light to help find your way around the room when the room lights are out.
100% practical too if you have small kids that tend to leave their toys on your office floor so you can see them before accidently stepping on them.

 

[Bill_Bright]

It is useful if you keep you pc on at night and use the rgb light to help find your way around the room when the room lights are out.

LOL Okay.

But in my case the lights on my modem, router, and the standby lights on my monitors and printer are enough cause me to shield my eyes already.

 

[A Computer Guy]

LOL Okay.

But in my case the lights on my modem, router, and the standby lights on my monitors and printer are enough cause me to shield my eyes already.

Yeah I know what you mean. I have this USBC switch with two really bright LED's. I had to put some stickers over them cause they were so bright.

 

[Vario]

It is useful if you keep you pc on at night and use the rgb light to help find your way around the room when the room lights are out.
100% practical too if you have small kids that tend to leave their toys on your office floor so you can see them before accidently stepping on them.

I find it to be annoying for those same reasons. I'd rather the room be dark. I am stuck with it because it is standard on all premium hardware now unless you pay the tax to NOT have it.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

It is useful if you keep you pc on at night and use the rgb light to help find your way around the room when the room lights are out.
100% practical too if you have small kids that tend to leave their toys on your office floor so you can see them before accidently stepping on them.

If I want a night light, I'll get a cheap single LED type that plugs into a wall socket and beams into a clear piece of plastic over leaving my PC on all night any day! They even have photo electric cells that make them shut off in the day. I'm not sure "practical" is the word here, seems to just verify it's an unnecessary expense. I turn my PC off every night too, the only exception is if I start a big download late at night before I go to bed, which is not very often.